Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,316
Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Jun 4, 2018 20:39:37 GMT
What would happen if a same-sex couple walked into a Muslim bakery wanting a wedding cake made for them. Would the bakery oblige? If not, would the couple take it on up to the Supreme Court? Would people criticize the Muslim religion? Would people want a boycott? along these linesThere was a video to that effect. I can't it now because I saw it back when this whole wedding cake thing was big news. Here is what I did just find Video
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,652
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Jun 4, 2018 20:40:27 GMT
So... what about other things besides cakes. I do not care for anything with the rebel flag. I live in the midwest and I think it is beyond ridiculous that people want to put it on anything here. That includes "my" Congressman who had one on his desk. I make vinyl decals and heat transfer decals. Not a big business, but a small side hustle. I won't do anything with the rebel flag or anything that really chaps my hide (like most political things also). I just say I won't do it. Am I violating free speech? I don't believe that somebody can force a business to make something that they don't provide or don't want to make as far as content. But I think it's different to discriminate based on the customer themselves. So I don't think somebody should force you to make decals with Confederate flags, but I wouldn't expect you to refuse service to somebody who pulled up in a truck with the Confederate flag, but wanted a decal that was something you already make. Hope that made sense.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 4, 2018 20:55:05 GMT
So... what about other things besides cakes. I do not care for anything with the rebel flag. I live in the midwest and I think it is beyond ridiculous that people want to put it on anything here. That includes "my" Congressman who had one on his desk. I make vinyl decals and heat transfer decals. Not a big business, but a small side hustle. I won't do anything with the rebel flag or anything that really chaps my hide (like most political things also). I just say I won't do it. Am I violating free speech? I don't believe that somebody can force a business to make something that they don't provide or don't want to make as far as content. But I think it's different to discriminate based on the customer themselves. So I don't think somebody should force you to make decals with Confederate flags, but I wouldn't expect you to refuse service to somebody who pulled up in a truck with the Confederate flag, but wanted a decal that was something you already make. Hope that made sense. This is my belief as well. Anyone should be able to buy any item non-specialized/custom item you sell and believe ultimately a case will make its way through the courts to rule that way. The conundrum will come when you are asking for something specialized - just how much control will you have over that final product and what does that mean when your beliefs run contrary to what you're asked to provide. In the vinyl decal example. If you're offering custom sayings with lettering you've designed and you create - I believe you should be able to refuse to provide sayings that you don't agree as ultimately I think it will fall under freedom of expression.
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Post by #notLauren on Jun 4, 2018 20:55:46 GMT
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Post by Merge on Jun 4, 2018 20:57:59 GMT
What would happen if a same-sex couple walked into a Muslim bakery wanting a wedding cake made for them. Would the bakery oblige? If not, would the couple take it on up to the Supreme Court? Would people criticize the Muslim religion? Would people want a boycott? I would boycott any business that discriminated against gay people, no matter what reason they gave for it.
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Post by mustlovecats on Jun 4, 2018 20:58:57 GMT
My sincerest hope is that the day will come when people don’t have to fight not to be discriminated against in everyday life. That’s not a special privilege, it should just be how we live our lives in a modern society.
Happy Pride, folks.
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Post by Merge on Jun 4, 2018 21:01:19 GMT
The “fascist gay left?” Hahahaha. Matt Walsh and his folks never disappoint.
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Post by #notLauren on Jun 4, 2018 21:03:24 GMT
What would happen if a same-sex couple walked into a Muslim bakery wanting a wedding cake made for them. Would the bakery oblige? If not, would the couple take it on up to the Supreme Court? Would people criticize the Muslim religion? Would people want a boycott? I would boycott any business that discriminated against gay people, no matter what reason they gave for it. And that's certainly your right. No one is claiming you must give business to any company.
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Post by #notLauren on Jun 4, 2018 21:05:06 GMT
The “fascist gay left?” Hahahaha. Matt Walsh and his folks never disappoint. This gay couple and it's supporters were vindictive and malicious. Personally, I am fully in favor of this baker. Would I frequent his shop; absolutely. There are issues which have caused me to decide not to give a business my money but I would never resort to death threats, lawsuits or attempts to destroy the livelihood of the business owner. I only hope that when forced to decide on the broader issue, the rights of the business owner to follow his faith prevail.
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Post by Merge on Jun 4, 2018 21:05:32 GMT
I would boycott any business that discriminated against gay people, no matter what reason they gave for it. And that's certainly your right. No one is claiming you must give business to any company. And yet we’ve got samiam up there arguing, obliquely, that I must. That market-driven economic consequences are not appropriate.
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Post by #notLauren on Jun 4, 2018 21:07:15 GMT
And that's certainly your right. No one is claiming you must give business to any company. And yet we’ve got samiam up there arguing, obliquely, that I must. That market-driven economic consequences are not appropriate. There is a difference between market-driven economic consequences and gang/thug mentality and actions
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Post by Merge on Jun 4, 2018 21:07:15 GMT
The “fascist gay left?” Hahahaha. Matt Walsh and his folks never disappoint. This gay couple and it's supporters were vindictive and malicious. Personally, I am fully in favor of this baker. Would I frequent his shop; absolutely. There are issues which have caused me to decide not to give a business my money but I would never resort to death threats, lawsuits or attempts to destroy the livelihood of the business owner. Matt Walsh is quite frequently divisive and vindictive. Maybe you should give the blogs you frequent a second look, if that’s of concern to you. I’m always surprised when I hear supposedly freedom-loving conservatives arguing in favor of discrimination. But hey, you do you.
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Post by peatlejuice on Jun 4, 2018 21:07:23 GMT
Legitimate question (with the hypothetical scenario that the Commission had been neutral): if the ruling had been in favor of the couple due to Colorado's law banning discrimination based on sexual orientation, would you have still cheered, or at least agreed, with it?
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Post by Merge on Jun 4, 2018 21:08:47 GMT
And yet we’ve got samiam up there arguing, obliquely, that I must. That market-driven economic consequences are not appropriate. There is a difference between market-driven economic consequences and gang/thug mentality and actions So encouraging others to boycott as well is gang/thug mentality?
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Post by #notLauren on Jun 4, 2018 21:10:44 GMT
try reading, Merge. My posts indicate no such thing.
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Post by #notLauren on Jun 4, 2018 21:13:21 GMT
Legitimate question (with the hypothetical scenario that the Commission had been neutral): if the ruling had been in favor of the couple due to Colorado's law banning discrimination based on sexual orientation, would you have still cheered, or at least agreed, with it? No, I would not have cheered. I do not agree with that law and it is my hope that when sexual orientation comes up against religious rights, the religious rights win. One is a Constitutional right, the other is not. But, even if they both were, the courts would need to consider a balance of which right should prevail. Given the number of bakers in Colorado and the open and well-known religious beliefs of this baker, his right still should have prevailed. This was done by this gay couple specifically to harass this baker for having the nerve to disapprove of gay marriage.
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Post by Merge on Jun 4, 2018 21:21:16 GMT
try reading, Merge. My posts indicate no such thing. That's the endgame, though. Allipeas looks forward to economic consequences for this business based on people deciding to boycott, samiam says she's targeting Christians and you say that attempting to put people out of business is a "thug" mentality. You can't simultaneously promote the principles of the free market and then complain when the market puts out of business someone you find sympathetic. I could name at least three businesses local to me who have been targeted for group boycott either because they had a Hillary sign in the window or have signs banning concealed carry on their premises. Still gang/thug mentality? Or just people exercising their first amendment rights?
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iowgirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,539
Jun 25, 2014 22:52:46 GMT
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Post by iowgirl on Jun 4, 2018 21:24:31 GMT
So I don't think somebody should force you to make decals with Confederate flags, but I wouldn't expect you to refuse service to somebody who pulled up in a truck with the Confederate flag, but wanted a decal that was something you already make. Hope that made sense. That does make perfect sense! I wouldn't refuse them service for something else, but I would probably have to tell them the rebel flag on an Iowa pickup makes them look like an uneducated idiot.
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Post by #notLauren on Jun 4, 2018 21:24:57 GMT
Merge, first, I am not responsible for what another person posts and why would you assume that another person's post are a reflection of my beliefs. I have said nothing about boycotts being wrong. Thug mentality refers to death threats, harassing and threatening phone calls, stalking of this guy etc.
I am fully in favor of talking with your dollars. Forcing this guy to go through a lawsuit; beyond the pale and done strictly to punish him for his beliefs.
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Post by peano on Jun 4, 2018 21:26:01 GMT
 What does your first question even mean? Are you saying that because she lives in Morocco, she can't have her own beliefs? I live in Connecticut but I don't find preppy fashion to be the bee's knees. We all pass judgment monetarily in numerous ways--what's the big deal? I think this is a perfect opportunity for like-minded cake bakers (and any other creatives unwilling to kowtow to the religious right) to organize and maybe create logos for advertising that their services are open to all. It's very rich for one to hope for a "monetary judgment" against a business in this country when the country they choose to live in will jail people for simply being gay, and whose own religion is anti-gay. Would that poster boycott bakeries in her own country if a same sex couple wanted to marry and have a cake made? We know the answer.I currently live in a country headed by lying sack of shit moron with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I am not like him. She lives in a largely Muslim country, but I guess she's entitled to her own thoughts and beliefs. What is so hard to understand about that? She left this country, from what I remember, because people in the US were such assholes to her and her family because of their religion. You do realize that you basically called her a liar with the above statements I took the liberty of bolding?
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Post by #notLauren on Jun 4, 2018 21:28:00 GMT
I find it a bit ironic that she went from a country of assholes with respect to religion to one which will kill people for differences of religion. Go figure.
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Post by Merge on Jun 4, 2018 21:33:21 GMT
Merge, first, I am not responsible for what another person posts and why would you assume that another person's post are a reflection of my beliefs. I have said nothing about boycotts being wrong. Thug mentality refers to death threats, harassing and threatening phone calls, stalking of this guy etc. I am fully in favor of talking with your dollars. Forcing this guy to go through a lawsuit; beyond the pale and done strictly to punish him for his beliefs. So the bolded above doesn't refer to organized boycotts? Regarding lawsuits, what other meaningful recourse does an individual have if they feel they're being discriminated against by a place of public accommodation?
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Post by #notLauren on Jun 4, 2018 21:37:04 GMT
No, it doesn't refer to boycotts. As far as lawsuits, I think this was a waste of judicial time and resources. You notice that these type of individuals only go after small/solo business owners that they know they can financially destroy through the legal process even if the guy wins (as this one has). It is wrong. Period. If gays want dignity and respect for being different, they need to give it to others as well.
There used to be a Pea (a red-haired woman) who was gay and she and her wife had a little girl. I loved her. She always stood up for the right of people to disagree with her or her lifestyle while continuing to live it. She would have had enough respect for herself and the business owner to not go to that store in the first place (knowing the guy's religious beliefs) and if she had mistakenly done so, she would have graciously left and gone to another baker. She would not have punished this baker or tried to destroy his livelihood because his beliefs were not hers.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Jun 4, 2018 21:42:09 GMT
I am left feeling like the court just completely dropped the ball. They could have settled this matter once and for all but instead they just left everyone hanging. And what does it do? It just causes more fighting when instead we could all just accept and move on.
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Post by Merge on Jun 4, 2018 21:44:59 GMT
No, it doesn't refer to boycotts. As far as lawsuits, I think this was a waste of judicial time and resources. You notice that these type of individuals only go after small/solo business owners that they know they can financially destroy through the legal process even if the guy wins (as this one has). It is wrong. Period. If gays want dignity and respect for being different, they need to give it to others as well. You didn't answer my question, though - what other recourse does someone have in the law if they feel they are being discriminated against in a place of public accommodation? I don't think you get to put qualifiers on what gay people have to do to get dignity and respect. Their rights to those things, including accommodation in places of public accommodation, are enshrined in the equal protection clause. Where rights conflict, our constitution is designed in all things to protect the rights of the powerless (the consumer in this case) from the tyranny of the powerful (the business owner in this case). How was this couple to protect their own rights and those of others like them, if not by suing? If they accept exclusion from this bakery, then they're accepting exclusion from any place of business that doesn't want "their kind." What's the tipping point?
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Post by Merge on Jun 4, 2018 21:45:35 GMT
I am left feeling like the court just completely dropped the ball. They could have settled this matter once and for all but instead they just left everyone hanging. And what does it do? It just causes more fighting when instead we could all just accept and move on. I think the court was very careful to litigate the case in front of them rather than legislating from the bench. I can't actually fault them for that.
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Post by #notLauren on Jun 4, 2018 21:47:04 GMT
No, it doesn't refer to boycotts. As far as lawsuits, I think this was a waste of judicial time and resources. You notice that these type of individuals only go after small/solo business owners that they know they can financially destroy through the legal process even if the guy wins (as this one has). It is wrong. Period. If gays want dignity and respect for being different, they need to give it to others as well. You didn't answer my question, though - what other recourse does someone have in the law if they feel they are being discriminated against in a place of public accommodation? I don't think you get to put qualifiers on what gay people have to do to get dignity and respect. Their rights to those things, including accommodation in places of public accommodation, are enshrined in the equal protection clause. Where rights conflict, our constitution is designed in all things to protect the rights of the powerless (the consumer in this case) from the tyranny of the powerful (the business owner in this case). How was this couple to protect their own rights and those of others like them, if not by suing? If they accept exclusion from this bakery, then they're accepting exclusion from any place of business that doesn't want "their kind." What's the tipping point? What rights? To have a cake made by baker A rather than baker B? There is no constitutional right to demand a customized wedding cake. This gay couple was looking for a fight. It was not about the cake; it was about forcing this guy to violate his own beliefs. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for this couple under these circumstances and I'm not going to get into a bunch of "what ifs" with you as they never lead anywhere.
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Post by ntsf on Jun 4, 2018 21:53:11 GMT
I think if your religious beliefs will not let you serve everyone in a public accomodation manner.. don't go into business. go into a field where you don't have to choose..
no one should have to leave a store due to who they are.. ..
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Post by Merge on Jun 4, 2018 21:55:24 GMT
You didn't answer my question, though - what other recourse does someone have in the law if they feel they are being discriminated against in a place of public accommodation? I don't think you get to put qualifiers on what gay people have to do to get dignity and respect. Their rights to those things, including accommodation in places of public accommodation, are enshrined in the equal protection clause. Where rights conflict, our constitution is designed in all things to protect the rights of the powerless (the consumer in this case) from the tyranny of the powerful (the business owner in this case). How was this couple to protect their own rights and those of others like them, if not by suing? If they accept exclusion from this bakery, then they're accepting exclusion from any place of business that doesn't want "their kind." What's the tipping point? What rights? To have a cake made by baker A rather than baker B? There is no constitutional right to demand a customized wedding cake. This gay couple was looking for a fight. It was not about the cake; it was about forcing this guy to violate his own beliefs. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for this couple under these circumstances and I'm not going to get into a bunch of "what ifs" with you as they never lead anywhere. The right to be served in any place of public accommodation. This couple doesn't require your sympathy. They require the equal protection under the law as guaranteed by our constitution. And yes, whether you want to admit it or not, suing was their only legal recourse to protect their constitutional rights.
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Post by #notLauren on Jun 4, 2018 21:56:05 GMT
The baker *was* willing to serve them.
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