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Post by Merge on Jan 27, 2019 21:15:30 GMT
I just want to say that switching from one political party to another isn't a matter of just pulling a different lever. Politics for many people is as ingrained as religion. TherRe is an evolution of thought that must take place to move from one side to another. And things chip away one issue at a time, at least that's how it worked and continues to work in my case. Gay marriage was really my tipping point. And yes I voted in the Republican primary...for Kasich. And then I voted third party in the general election because all polls seemed to indicate Hillary would win. My thought was that surely a buffoon like Trump would never get elected. But I was wrong. And I have learned from my mistake here and will not do the same thing again. In looking back, I can definitely see that Obama came with a message of Hope and change. And people wanted that. He was a candidate that people felt like they wanted to vote for. Hillary was not that type of candidate and if Democrats want to win in 2020 then they have to examine that. Denying it and placing blame isn't going to move our country forward. You (general) need to ask yourself is more advantageous to be right or is it more advantageous to change minds. Because I want to change minds. The far right is a throwaway group. They are just way too deep in it to ever change their stance. The people in the middle are fair game. Use your arguments to win them over. Give them facts to think about. But don't blame and shame them. They just need information to make a better choice. You (general) need their support to win the next election. I honestly don't think we can change minds. Anyone's minds. I do know that I'm awfully tired of people who voted for Trump telling me that Democrats are to blame for their decision, and tired of the very same folks who voted for a man who spews absolute hatred for people I love, turning around and crying persecution if I type a snarky response. You don't get to vote for hate and then get all butthurt when people are upset by that. And that's it. I'm out.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Jan 27, 2019 21:17:44 GMT
Merge my post wasn't to blame Democrats. My post was made in the spirit of let's look at what worked in the past and what didn't work in the past. So we can make a better future.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jan 27, 2019 21:18:12 GMT
iamkristinl16 you said that people should be responsible for their own education and then in your next post say people were compelled to vote for Trump based on Fox news and Russian bots. Obviously, people are not getting unbiased information. I think people ought to take responsibility for their unplanned pregnancies. Truth is, some people can't and we have no problem giving them Medicaid and WIC assistance. Yet we bear no responsibility as a society to help our fellow man gain access to truthful information so they can make an educated vote? I disagree. I think a lot of peas here give me things to think about. My family and friends do too. Just as I might look to my dad giving car advice, I will also give him the consideration on his political opinion. That's how things work in my life. And I would think if it didn't work that way then why bother with 23 posts with thousands of responses about Trump? Is it just to shake your head and commiserate that he sucks? Or is it to share information with people who might not have seen something you did and would be interested? I'll just ask straight up, what is the point? I didn't say that we bear no responsibility for helping others gain truthful information. What I disagree with is that it is my (or other Democrats')fault that someone "wasn't convinced" and voted for Trump. The info is out there. They need to be looking for it. There is only so much other people can do. One needs to want to seek out and hear information. I have several family members that posted fake news throughout the campaign and since (along with other derogatory things). They have gotten more and more adamant that Fox is right and no other sources are worthy except "what the White House says". Several other family members respectfully pointed out that falsehoods and pointed them in the direction of more accurate info. The people trying to point out the fake news were heckled, made fun of, and treated very disrespectfully and were recently unfriended and blocked on FB. There is not much more that could have been done to help them get accurate info, IMO, and I am not going to take responsibility for their vote. As for the Trump threads---I don't read every single post but for me they are a way to get information that I might not have seen elsewhere. There is a sense of commiseration as well, though. @gmcwife I am sorry if you took my post that way. I was not singling you out as a third party voter, but speaking in general terms. I think that the 2016 election showed that anything can happen, and people who have said in the past that their vote didn't count, maybe realize that it does.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 21:22:46 GMT
The way I see it, there are elections BT and elections AT. BT before trump and AT after trump.
BT, people had the luxury of, not voting, voting for a third party candidate, writing in their dog’s on the ballot, or regardless of the candidate, voting straight party. And if one did any of this, they felt all would be ok and maybe in the next election better candidates would appear.
Then trump appeared. At first the general consensus was trump would be gone after the first couple of primaries. But he hung in there. Then it became clear he had a shot of winning the nomination. And then he did.
IMO, the second he won that nomination, how we as a country vote was changed forever. No longer did we have the luxury of not voting, voting third party etc. Our votes had to count and they had to be informed votes.
This should have been a slam dunk in the general election because trump was not shy about hiding how unfit he was to be president. His ignorance, his bullying, his pettiness, his lying was all right out there for people to see. And yet it was ignored by the people who voted for him, by the people who voted third party, and by the people that stayed home on both sides.
By the time the general election rolled around it was clear there was only two choices, actually only one choice, and that was like her not, Hillary.
Now we are entering another presidential election cycle, the first one since trump was elected or AT.
Already it’s starting by those on the right and independents saying the Democrats have to put just the right candidate to beat trump. Phooey, my dead cat Fred would make a better president then a live trump. But the Democrats do need to put up the best candidate if the Republicans come to their senses and primary trump.
Regardless of who the final two running for President in 2020 turn out to be, 2016 should have taught all of us that we need to showup and vote, that our vote has to count, meaning not throwing it away for whatever reason, and it must be an informed vote. Otherwise we deserve the chaos that we are currently living through right now. And that applies to all elections going forward IMO.
As far as being informed, that is up to the individual to take the time and ferret out the facts and not rely on all that noise swirling around them to make their decisions.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Jan 27, 2019 21:25:05 GMT
Im sorry if my post wasn't clear. I'm not out to blame anyone. I just want everyone to take a really critical look at what went wrong and try to make it right so we don't have another 4 years of trump. I've taken a critical look at myself, my vote, my biases, and my positions and I will pull the lever for whomever runs against him next time. I just want others to join me and after watching what has gone on the past two years, I'm trying to disseminate all the truthful information I can. I know I'm not going to reach a certain segment of the population, they are closed to it, but there's a bunch of middle of the road people. Those people can be won and need to be if we don't want them to vote for Trump again.
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Post by freecharlie on Jan 27, 2019 21:33:11 GMT
The way I see it, there are elections BT and elections AT. BT before trump and AT after trump. BT, people had the luxury of, not voting, voting for a third party candidate, writing in their dog’s on the ballot, or regardless of the candidate, voting straight party. And if one did any of this, they felt all would be ok and maybe in the next election better candidates would appear. Then trump appeared. At first the general consensus was trump would be gone after the first couple of primaries. But he hung in there. Then it became clear he had a shot of winning the nomination. And then he did. IMO, the second he won that nomination, how we as a country vote was changed forever. No longer did we have the luxury of not voting, voting third party etc. Our votes had to count and they had to be informed votes. This should have been a slam dunk in the general election because trump was not shy about hiding how unfit he was to be president. His ignorance, his bullying, his pettiness, his lying was all right out there for people to see. And yet it was ignored by the people who voted for him, by the people who voted third party, and by the people that stayed home on both sides. By the time the general election rolled around it was clear there was only two choices, actually only one choice, and that was like her not, Hillary. Now we are entering another presidential election cycle, the first one since trump was elected or AT. Already it’s starting by those on the right and independents saying the Democrats have to put just the right candidate to beat trump. Phooey, my dead cat Fred would make a better president then a live trump. But the Democrats do need to put up the best candidate if the Republicans come to their senses and primary trump. Regardless of who the final two running for President in 2020 turn out to be, 2016 should have taught all of us that we need to showup and vote, that our vote has to count, meaning not throwing it away for whatever reason, and it must be an informed vote. Otherwise we deserve the chaos that we are currently living through right now. And that applies to all elections going forward IMO. As far as being informed, that is up to the individual to take the time and ferret out the facts and not rely on all that noise swirling around them to make their decisions. Absolutely, 100% all of this! I held my nose while I voted for my new governor because I do not like a lot of his policies, but the alternative was much, much worse.
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Post by tentoes on Jan 27, 2019 21:51:22 GMT
This should have been a slam dunk in the general election I actually think this particular attitude is what cost the democrats the election. Your candidate was so "sure" she was going to win she didn't take him seriously--nor did any of the democrats. Republicans were sick of the status quo--and the 8 miserable years of Obama's presidency (yes, most republicans thought of those years as miserable). She drummed it into people that she'd be the "first woman" to be president. It worked for Obama being the first black man to win, it surely would win for her as the first woman. Her very "superior" attitude in the debates were off-putting. She offered the Republicans nothing. Nothing. So, if your next candidate is anything like Hillary was, I'm sure you (general) will be spending the 4 years after that election the same way you (general you) have spent this past 2 years.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 27, 2019 22:02:12 GMT
Yes that has been said on the Trump threads. Don't come in and mess up our hand wringing over Trump, this is our place to do so and anything you have to offer that isn't in line with that is just not welcome there. My apologies if you only wanted to know Kristen's take on that in particular, just thought you might be interested in that actuality. and if you'll remember there was an attempt by some of the right leaning peas "to have their own threads" which quickly became derailed by the left leaning peas. And even knowing the subject/title of threads heavily populated by democratic peas, it never ever stopped the right wingers from coming onto those and totally basing, derailing and mocking the more liberal peas. In fact, the last 2 threads that were for republican only did little but bash the liberal peas. The democratic peas didn’t show up until the right wingers got even worse on the liberal threads.
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Post by freecharlie on Jan 27, 2019 22:04:01 GMT
Her very "superior" attitude in the debates were off-putting Her superior attitude during the debates? You mean intelligent, well thought out answers? It should have been a slam dunk. Trump was and is incompetent. His rhetoric was and is full of crap. He has screwed the people he said he would help and they bought it hook, line, and sinker. She should have taken him seriously, but it was hard to see that people would vote for someone who was so incompetent and so corrupt and such a ginormous ass. She should have campaigned more and she shouldn't have left out the white, male voter. Many white males felt alienated by her and stayed home or voted for Trump or a third party. Hillary was very well qualified to be president. She had leadership credentials and had been in the Senate and in the cabinet. The left fell all over themselves trying to look like they weren't being sheep that they perpetuated the, "well, she isn't my first choice..." Of course, Republicans thought of those 8 years as miserable. There were social gains and economic gains, but we were also helping people and not screwing people over. Ask a republican why those 8 years sucked. See what they come up with.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 27, 2019 22:05:31 GMT
Im sorry if my post wasn't clear. I'm not out to blame anyone. I just want everyone to take a really critical look at what went wrong and try to make it right so we don't have another 4 years of trump. I've taken a critical look at myself, my vote, my biases, and my positions and I will pull the lever for whomever runs against him next time. I just want others to join me and after watching what has gone on the past two years, I'm trying to disseminate all the truthful information I can. I know I'm not going to reach a certain segment of the population, they are closed to it, but there's a bunch of middle of the road people. Those people can be won and need to be if we don't want them to vote for Trump again. I understood what you wrote. 😘
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jan 27, 2019 22:24:20 GMT
Her very "superior" attitude in the debates were off-putting Her superior attitude during the debates? You mean intelligent, well thought out answers? It should have been a slam dunk. Trump was and is incompetent. His rhetoric was and is full of crap. He has screwed the people he said he would help and they bought it hook, line, and sinker. She should have taken him seriously, but it was hard to see that people would vote for someone who was so incompetent and so corrupt and such a ginormous ass. She should have campaigned more and she shouldn't have left out the white, male voter. Many white males felt alienated by her and stayed home or voted for Trump or a third party. Hillary was very well qualified to be president. She had leadership credentials and had been in the Senate and in the cabinet. The left fell all over themselves trying to look like they weren't being sheep that they perpetuated the, "well, she isn't my first choice..." Of course, Republicans thought of those 8 years as miserable. There were social gains and economic gains, but we were also helping people and not screwing people over. Ask a republican why those 8 years sucked. See what they come up with. Well said!
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Post by tentoes on Jan 27, 2019 22:26:54 GMT
Her very "superior" attitude in the debates were off-putting Her superior attitude during the debates? You mean intelligent, well thought out answers? You may have thought they were intelligent and well thought out, but others (me included) thought they were very condesending, dismissive, and off putting.
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Post by tentoes on Jan 27, 2019 22:29:10 GMT
Hillary was very well qualified to be president. She had leadership credentials and had been in the Senate and in the cabinet. The left fell all over themselves trying to look like they weren't being sheep that they perpetuated the, "well, she isn't my first choice..." Keep telling yourself that, and Trump will win again. Just sayin'
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Post by freecharlie on Jan 27, 2019 22:31:25 GMT
Keep telling yourself that, and Trump will win again. Just sayin' if the left keeps continuing to fall all over themselves as to not offend and to look like they are the most enlightened people, you may be right. But tell me, how was she not qualified? And more importantly how was trump more qualifies?
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Post by freecharlie on Jan 27, 2019 22:33:04 GMT
Her superior attitude during the debates? You mean intelligent, well thought out answers? You may have thought they were intelligent and well thought out, but others (me included) thought they were very condesending, dismissive, and off putting. so because she actually knew something, she was condescending? I can see that. I mean if an adult pointed at a sheep and called it a cow, I might be condescending in my response too
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Post by tentoes on Jan 27, 2019 22:36:05 GMT
so because she actually knew something, she was condescending? I can see that. I mean if an adult pointed at a sheep and called it a cow, I might be condescending in my response too I thought we were trying to have an intelligent discussion. Guess I was wrong.
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Post by freecharlie on Jan 27, 2019 22:45:47 GMT
so because she actually knew something, she was condescending? I can see that. I mean if an adult pointed at a sheep and called it a cow, I might be condescending in my response too I thought we were trying to have an intelligent discussion. Guess I was wrong. not sure where intelligent discussion ended. I'm being completely honest. When someone asks a stupid question or gives a stupid answer, I become a bit condescending too. It is hard not to. Here's an example: "do I have to get my shift covered?" Hmmmm...are you going to be here? No? Then, yeah cover your shift.
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Post by lucyg on Jan 27, 2019 22:57:25 GMT
Her superior attitude during the debates? You mean intelligent, well thought out answers? You may have thought they were intelligent and well thought out, but others (me included) thought they were very condesending, dismissive, and off putting. So you’re saying an ignorant, lying, crooked, narcissistic, uncivilized, incompetent blowhard was a better choice for president than a smart, educated, experienced, thoughtful, hard-working, generally superior woman, because she didn’t show enough humility to suit you? But you're okay with the pussy-grabbing and the mocking of the disabled reporter and the preferring immigrants from Norway, not sh*thole countries? All righty, then.
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lindas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,203
Jun 26, 2014 5:46:37 GMT
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Post by lindas on Jan 27, 2019 23:38:21 GMT
Im sorry if my post wasn't clear. I'm not out to blame anyone. I just want everyone to take a really critical look at what went wrong and try to make it right so we don't have another 4 years of trump. I've taken a critical look at myself, my vote, my biases, and my positions and I will pull the lever for whomever runs against him next time. I just want others to join me and after watching what has gone on the past two years, I'm trying to disseminate all the truthful information I can. I know I'm not going to reach a certain segment of the population, they are closed to it, but there's a bunch of middle of the road people. Those people can be won and need to be if we don't want them to vote for Trump again. I think that's what a lot of people did last election. They didn't want another democrat so it didn't matter who the nominee was. A lot of people didn't see the hope and change Obama promised and probably felt that the party would continue down the same path as the previous 8 years. They wanted a change and they got it. Some like it and some don't, 2020 will tell. To vote for whoever runs against him regardless of their stance on the issues is not a well thought out vote, it's a reactionary vote which as we've seen does not always turn out the way we hoped.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Jan 27, 2019 23:41:11 GMT
Im sorry if my post wasn't clear. I'm not out to blame anyone. I just want everyone to take a really critical look at what went wrong and try to make it right so we don't have another 4 years of trump. I've taken a critical look at myself, my vote, my biases, and my positions and I will pull the lever for whomever runs against him next time. I just want others to join me and after watching what has gone on the past two years, I'm trying to disseminate all the truthful information I can. I know I'm not going to reach a certain segment of the population, they are closed to it, but there's a bunch of middle of the road people. Those people can be won and need to be if we don't want them to vote for Trump again. I think that's what a lot of people did last election. They didn't want another democrat so it didn't matter who the nominee was. A lot of people didn't see the hope and change Obama promised and probably felt that the party would continue down the same path as the previous 8 years. They wanted a change and they got it. Some like it and some don't, 2020 will tell. To vote for whoever runs against him regardless of their stance on the issues is not a well thought out vote, it's a reactionary vote which as we've seen does not always turn out the way we hoped. I'm so disappointed and disgusted by Trump that I honestly can't imagine anyone being worse.
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Post by tentoes on Jan 27, 2019 23:59:11 GMT
So you’re saying an ignorant, lying, crooked, narcissistic, uncivilized, incompetent blowhard was a better choice for president than a smart, educated, experienced, thoughtful, hard-working, generally superior woman, because she didn’t show enough humility to suit you? But you're okay with the pussy-grabbing and the mocking of the disabled reporter and the preferring immigrants from Norway, not sh*thole countries? All righty, then. Nothing like putting words in for another person. I didn't say the above, you did. Alrighty then.
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Post by peano on Jan 28, 2019 0:00:55 GMT
This should have been a slam dunk in the general election I actually think this particular attitude is what cost the democrats the election. Your candidate was so "sure" she was going to win she didn't take him seriously--nor did any of the democrats. Republicans were sick of the status quo--and the 8 miserable years of Obama's presidency (yes, most republicans thought of those years as miserable). She drummed it into people that she'd be the "first woman" to be president. It worked for Obama being the first black man to win, it surely would win for her as the first woman. Her very "superior" attitude in the debates were off-putting. She offered the Republicans nothing. Nothing. So, if your next candidate is anything like Hillary was, I'm sure you (general) will be spending the 4 years after that election the same way you (general you) have spent this past 2 years. I think what the Democrats underestimated is the degree to which misogyny runs deep in this country and that people were (are) so willing to overlook the toxic waste dump that is Donald Trump.
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Post by peano on Jan 28, 2019 0:04:38 GMT
so because she actually knew something, she was condescending? I can see that. I mean if an adult pointed at a sheep and called it a cow, I might be condescending in my response too Republicans want their women to be eyelash-batting, empty-headed sperm receptacles, dontcha know.
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Post by lucyg on Jan 28, 2019 0:13:44 GMT
So you’re saying an ignorant, lying, crooked, narcissistic, uncivilized, incompetent blowhard was a better choice for president than a smart, educated, experienced, thoughtful, hard-working, generally superior woman, because she didn’t show enough humility to suit you? But you're okay with the pussy-grabbing and the mocking of the disabled reporter and the preferring immigrants from Norway, not sh*thole countries? All righty, then. Nothing like putting words in for another person. I didn't say the above, you did. Alrighty then. I’m confused. You’re the one who said people wouldn’t vote for Hillary because she was condescending and superior. It follows that this personal likability factor (although I myself certainly see nothing likable about Trump) outweighed her better qualities, and his worse qualities were unimportant, for those who voted for him.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jan 28, 2019 0:17:38 GMT
I actually think this particular attitude is what cost the democrats the election. Your candidate was so "sure" she was going to win she didn't take him seriously--nor did any of the democrats. Republicans were sick of the status quo--and the 8 miserable years of Obama's presidency (yes, most republicans thought of those years as miserable). She drummed it into people that she'd be the "first woman" to be president. It worked for Obama being the first black man to win, it surely would win for her as the first woman. Her very "superior" attitude in the debates were off-putting. She offered the Republicans nothing. Nothing. So, if your next candidate is anything like Hillary was, I'm sure you (general) will be spending the 4 years after that election the same way you (general you) have spent this past 2 years. I think what the Democrats underestimated is the degree to which misogyny runs deep in this country and that people were (are) so willing to overlook the toxic waste dump that is Donald Trump. And, to be very accurate, white people. White people were willing. ![](https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/58250663691e88014a8b55e7-1136-1130.png)
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Post by Tamhugh on Jan 28, 2019 0:32:01 GMT
Could it be that the people that voted for Trump did so because (in part) in their opinion the Democratic candidate was so terribly flawed? Both parties need to screen their candidate better than the last time, or more and more people will be voting third party--or choose not to vote at all. IMO, the reasons people say that Hillary was “so terribly flawed” are based on bias and/or misinformation from Fox News and Russian interference. I was involved in a very civil discussion on FB recently about Hilary. The original topic was about the recent show about Monica Lewinsky. The poster was talking about how she was just an innocent girl and how could anyone still vote for/like Bill after that. It devolved into "that is why we hate Hilary. How can we respect a woman who stood by such a pig of a man? How could we vote for her when she didn't leave her pig of a husband?" But not one of them could explain how they could instead vote for a man who did all the same things as Bill, and bragged about it? If it is really about how horribly mortifying it must have been for those women, how can you vote for and respect a man who trotted those women out and exploited them at a debate just to rattle Hilary? I liked Hilary. I think she was qualified to be President. I can understand why others didn't like her and her political beliefs. But I think it is horrible to hate her for Bill's actions and then vote for a man who is just as bad or worse and is unqualified to be President besides.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jan 28, 2019 0:35:15 GMT
IMO, the reasons people say that Hillary was “so terribly flawed” are based on bias and/or misinformation from Fox News and Russian interference. I was involved in a very civil discussion on FB recently about Hilary. The original topic was about the recent show about Monica Lewinsky. The poster was talking about how she was just an innocent girl and how could anyone still vote for/like Bill after that. It devolved into "that is why we hate Hilary. How can we respect a woman who stood by such a pig of a man? How could we vote for her when she didn't leave her pig of a husband?" But not one of them could explain how they could instead vote for a man who did all the same things as Bill, and bragged about it? If it is really about how horribly mortifying it must have been for those women, how can you vote for and respect a man who trotted those women out and exploited them at a debate just to rattle Hilary? I liked Hilary. I think she was qualified to be President. I can understand why others didn't like her and her political beliefs. But I think it is horrible to hate her for Bill's actions and then vote for a man who is just as bad or worse and is unqualified to be President besides. I agree. I have an aunt who posted some pretty nasty things about Hillary based on Bill’s cheating on her. Some were things like, “even bill didn’t want her” with cruder words. Others were basically blaming Hillary for Bill cheating. So disrespectful. I asked her if she would say the same thing about her daughters husband cheated on her. She then said I was attacking her on Facebook. Um....ok.
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Post by dewryce on Jan 28, 2019 1:56:31 GMT
Her superior attitude during the debates? You mean intelligent, well thought out answers? You may have thought they were intelligent and well thought out, but others (me included) thought they were very condesending, dismissive, and off putting. Just curious, what did you think of Trump’s answers? Of his behavior during the debates? Keep telling yourself that, and Trump will win again. Just sayin' Only if (general you) vote for him again. Just sayin’.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 3:12:02 GMT
Why the qualifier? Why, if that's what I'm speaking of and thinking Amelia was speaking of, and you're interested in knowing where we're coming from, why prohibit the answer? If you feel like you would like to share that, please do. I just don't want to get bogged down in the details and am more interested in the ideas and policies, but if you would like to share, I invite you to do so. In order to avoid bogging you down in details I tagged you in an example so you can just see it first hand.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 3:20:33 GMT
Yes that has been said on the Trump threads. Don't come in and mess up our hand wringing over Trump, this is our place to do so and anything you have to offer that isn't in line with that is just not welcome there. My apologies if you only wanted to know Kristen's take on that in particular, just thought you might be interested in that actuality. IMO, that's a shame. Because I think that it is opportunity squandered. I worked constituent relations in my state legislature for many years. Most people don't call their reps to tell them they are doing a good job, usually it is because they have a different view than the rep. It was always my goal to get to a place of understanding. I hear you and where you are coming from and this is how the rep feels and where he's coming from. People remember being treated with dignity even when they are on opposing sides. And that's what is really needed. From both sides. Oh, I couldn't agree more and well said. I wish more people would discuss the way you do. We might actually have more well rounded discussions and more understanding of the other side. I can't tell you how many times I've seen peas say how much they get from considering another point of view. There are a few very vocal peas here who just won't allow it though and work hard to derail the discussion by attacking the person.
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