anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,402
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Feb 6, 2019 5:59:12 GMT
Meaningless until he hands these people over to the authorities. And let's not forget that there are plenty of reports out there about nuns being abusers too. Of children, women and novices. Not much seems to be done about that either.
The Catholic Church is a stinking cesspit.
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Post by tara on Feb 6, 2019 7:17:21 GMT
I’m not surprised. Most organized religions have the attitude of women being second class citizens. I’ve been done with organized religion for 5 years now and I’ve never been closer to God. I pray a lot more now.
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Post by gillyp on Feb 6, 2019 9:16:18 GMT
I feel exactly the same way. I don't know why I had never thought of this before. It is horrifying to me and I think there would have been so many affected and very powerless to speak out. Same here. It has never occurred to me that nuns have suffered sexual assault. I don’t know why it didn’t occur to me, it just didn’t. I guess because I’ve just never heard about it. It never occurred to me because those involved are adults with similar vows and callings. Much as I hate to say it, I wasn’t surprised at children being abused as that comes from a position of power, which I know it can too in adult relationships. I’m being very simplistic in my thoughts but that’s where I’m coming from. Presumably we also need to be aware that some of these relationships will have been consensual or even initiated by the nuns. The whole thing is a very sorry mess.
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Post by hop2 on Feb 6, 2019 11:56:46 GMT
Same here. It has never occurred to me that nuns have suffered sexual assault. I don’t know why it didn’t occur to me, it just didn’t. I guess because I’ve just never heard about it. It never occurred to me because those involved are adults with similar vows and callings. Much as I hate to say it, I wasn’t surprised at children being abused as that comes from a position of power, which I know it can too in adult relationships. I’m being very simplistic in my thoughts but that’s where I’m coming from. Presumably we also need to be aware that some of these relationships will have been consensual or even initiated by the nuns. The whole thing is a very sorry mess. Within the Catholic Church nuns have very little power, and zero power over the lowest priest in the hierarchy. Add that to the fact that diocese by diocese these are little ‘kingdoms’ run by the Bishop and unfortunately to many bishops priests can do no wrong. For years the worst punishment a priest recurved was a transfer.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 9:24:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 13:16:42 GMT
Autocracy, blind allegiance to rulers, no critical thinking, dogma over facts, beliefs over evidence, no questioning that leads away from "scriptures", patriarchy....etc.
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Post by gar on Feb 6, 2019 13:37:26 GMT
Autocracy, blind allegiance to rulers, no critical thinking, dogma over facts, beliefs over evidence, no questioning that leads away from "scriptures", patriarchy....etc. Yeah - I have nothing against personal spirituality, having a relationship with whatever god you choose but nothing on earth could drag me into organised religion. Sadly so often it just seems to attract the very worst of humanity while pontificating on how others should live and behave.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 9:24:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 13:44:13 GMT
There is a twitter hashtag I follow sometimes called #EmptyThePews
It is only when people stop giving money to ANY organizations that rape, assault, abuse, lie, cover-up, isolate, denigrate, ridicule - that the world will change for the better.
We don't stand for these rapes, assaults, abuses at our YMCAs or our schools - at least once we find out about them - why do we continue to support it in our churches, mosques, synagogues and temples?
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wellway
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,012
Jun 25, 2014 20:50:09 GMT
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Post by wellway on Feb 6, 2019 13:54:37 GMT
The BBC have updated their article to include info about the congregation of nuns. It was in France. Where is the abuse said to have taken place?
The female congregation dissolved in 2005 under Pope Benedict was the Community of St Jean, which was based in France, Alessandro Gisotti of the Vatican press office told CBS News.
In 2013, the Community of St Jean admitted that priests had behaved "in ways that went against chastity" with several women in the order, according to the French Roman Catholic newspaper La Croix.
In a separate case in India last year, a bishop was arrested over allegations that he raped a nun 13 times between 2014 and 2016.
Bishop Franco Mulakkal, who headed the diocese in Jalandhar in the northern state of Punjab, has denied the accusations.
In Chile, reports of abuse of nuns carried out by priests led the Vatican to launch an investigation last year. The women were reportedly removed from the order after highlighting the abuse.
Last year, the Associated Press news agency reported cases of abuse in Italy and Africa. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47134033
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Post by quinlove on Feb 6, 2019 14:21:25 GMT
Oh my god. This horrible, horrible thing and we are only finding out now. How many victims does the Catholic church have? How many more have never dared to come forward? And WTF? How hard is it to at minimum defrock and at maximum prosecute? W. T. G. D. F. !!! Disgusting does not even begin to describe this. I’ve pretty much stepped away from the CC. This shit makes me need to meditate on a new direction to completely move away from this horrible religion. God dammit - I’ve got to rethink everything - again. eta - I don’t normally use this particular language, so I apologize if this is offensive to anyone. But this shit is effed up. Big time.
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mallie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,253
Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
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Post by mallie on Feb 6, 2019 18:35:09 GMT
Supporting an organization is a choice. Supporting this organization with its systemic pattern of abuse worldwide is indefensible.
Because, let's be clear, this is not a situation in which random, occasional issues crop it. It is systemic. It's about who is attracted/recruited to the priesthood, what cultural norms are inculcated and encouraged, what behaviors are considered acceptable or even encouraged behind closed doors, and the endless oppression to silence "for the good of the church".
Anyone who still supports this organization is complicit in the never ending parade of abuse.
Complicit.
Complicit in the continued systemic abuse and cover ups of abuse. If everyone stopped attending and giving money and making excuses for the selfish reasons of their own comfort, then they would truly be walking the way of Christ.
Staying means you are complicit in the abuse and cover ups.
Complicit.
Ugly word for an ugly choice.
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luckyjune
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,687
Location: In the rainy, rainy WA
Jul 22, 2017 4:59:41 GMT
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Post by luckyjune on Feb 6, 2019 20:14:00 GMT
It takes a special kind of someone to stand before others and say, "Thou shalt not..." and "Thou shall..." and then, thinking the rules only apply to the peasants, turn around and live a life unchecked. I'm thinking politicians and the clergy would be where we find many of these people. I've watched clergy with fascination for years. The adulation that follows them must be as powerful as a drug. I'm thinking of a pair of pastors local to me, who were given a house, a stable full of horses, vacations to Hawaii (and when they returned, the congregation had built them a swimming pool in their back yard). It looked, to me, like a whole lot of trying to get in good with the pastors. My own aunt and uncle fell into this in their church. It was always, "Pastor said this..." and Pastor said that..." and "We had dinner with Pastor last night..." I think they had the wrong guy walking on water.
Count me in with those who never even considered that nuns were being abused by no other than priests! This whole thing makes me sick. I sure as hell hope that when orders of abused women were disbanded, it did not mean breaking up the order and sending the nuns on their merry way. They deserved to be supported for the rest of their days. How about not shaming the victims and getting rid of the priests??? Can you imagine the damage, not only from rape, but having to reconcile the taking of a vow of celibacy and then enduring such abuse?
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Post by hop2 on Feb 6, 2019 21:03:21 GMT
It takes a special kind of someone to stand before others and say, "Thou shalt not..." and "Thou shall..." and then, thinking the rules only apply to the peasants, turn around and live a life unchecked. My children have said the catholic religion is all about what I should not do. Don’t this -don’t that. Whereas reform Judiaism is about what you should do. You should help the poor, you should fight for social justice etc. We happened to go to a very progressive temple. Then when they got older they decided that all organized religions use a healthy dose of brainwashing to keep their flock. Im not sure they believe in anything anymore but they still consider themselves Jewish
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Post by hop2 on Feb 6, 2019 21:22:12 GMT
Autocracy, blind allegiance to rulers, no critical thinking, dogma over facts, beliefs over evidence, no questioning that leads away from "scriptures", patriarchy....etc. That’s how they e kept everyone in line for centuries can’t stop now
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Post by hockeyfan06 on Feb 6, 2019 21:38:43 GMT
This just makes me put another mark down on why I don't support the Catholic Church anymore. I grew up Catholic and so did my husband. I have told him all of the sins that keeps coming out. It makes him furious and sometimes he doesn't want to hear the latest. But I keep telling him. He needs to know how rotten this religion it and how it should be exposed.
I believe in the no tolerance rule. One and done.
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Post by lauradrumm on Feb 7, 2019 6:55:25 GMT
I don’t mean any disrespect but at first I thought the title meant overworking nuns in secretarial work
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trollie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,580
Jul 2, 2014 22:14:02 GMT
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Post by trollie on Feb 7, 2019 8:27:29 GMT
This blows me away and makes me incredibly sad. Not sure why this takes me by complete surprise, but it does.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Feb 7, 2019 12:49:43 GMT
Then when they got older they decided that all organized religions use a healthy dose of brainwashing to keep their flock. Religion is all about smoke and mirrors. Gaslighting with a goal of controlling people. No thanks. I can think for myself... much more clearly. Edited to add: I have long thought that many people are drawn into preiesthood/ministry because of the 'aura' it grants them and the power that comes with it. The crux is that power comes from others -- people who give up their own power willingly. To be controlled by a nonsensical system of 'beliefs.' Again... no thanks.
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Post by gar on Feb 7, 2019 13:08:55 GMT
Then when they got older they decided that all organized religions use a healthy dose of brainwashing to keep their flock. Religion is all about smoke and mirrors. Gaslighting with a goal of controlling people. No thanks. I can think for myself... much more clearly. Edited to add: I have long thought that many people are drawn into preiesthood/ministry because of the 'aura' it grants them and the power that comes with it. The crux is that power comes from others -- people who give up their own power willingly. To be controlled by a nonsensical system of 'beliefs.' Again... no thanks. Yeah, that.
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Post by hop2 on Feb 7, 2019 15:51:23 GMT
Then when they got older they decided that all organized religions use a healthy dose of brainwashing to keep their flock. Religion is all about smoke and mirrors. Gaslighting with a goal of controlling people. No thanks. I can think for myself... much more clearly. Edited to add: I have long thought that many people are drawn into preiesthood/ministry because of the 'aura' it grants them and the power that comes with it. The crux is that power comes from others -- people who give up their own power willingly. To be controlled by a nonsensical system of 'beliefs.' Again... no thanks. I have always encouraged them to think for themselves and to seek their own personal walk with god or the collective energy of the universe. I guess it stuck because they don’t buy into everything they are told by organized religion. Marching band though, that they bought into even though they still said it’s ‘like a cult’ lol
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schizo319
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,030
Jun 28, 2014 0:26:58 GMT
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Post by schizo319 on Feb 7, 2019 16:44:02 GMT
Count me among those who were shocked at this revelation. For me, I think I just always assumed that the priesthood essentially attracted pedophiles and that pedophiles who are attracted to young boys aren't really interested in adult women. I realize cognitively that abuse is about power and subjugation regardless of the age/gender of the victim, but it's very difficult to wrap my head around in this case for some reason.
I truly feel badly for devout Catholics, it must be incredibly difficult to reconcile your core faith and belief in God with the horrific abuse that's been perpetrated by those who are supposed to be the most pious/devout. My heart aches for the nuns who were abused while in service to God, I cannot begin to imagine the level of betrayal they must feel.
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Post by birukitty on Feb 7, 2019 17:17:45 GMT
Sadly, not shocked at all. When I was little, I overheard several older relatives talking from time to time that the orphanages were filled with babies that nuns had given birth to and the priests were the fathers. Netflix has a movie out called The Innocents. Polish nuns during WWII were raped and impregnated by Russian soldiers. They started an orphanage to keep their babies. Initially the house mother killed them. It’s based on a true story. It’s just so disgusting. This is a completely different situation-just wanted to point that out. In WWII when the Russian soldiers came through they raped every woman they found old and young-it didn't matter to them who it was. My great great grandmother was an old woman in her bed on the farm when they came through and they raped her and killed her. My great great grandfather was at the barn and tried to save the women there by hiding them in the barn and they shot him and presumably went for the women in the barn. The raping by the Russian soldiers as they made their way towards the west is well known. I too am completely shocked about this news story today. In a million years it would never have occurred to me that nuns would be abused and raped by priests. I don't know why. I guess it's because I see nuns as holy and untouchable. I don't have any experience with them because I joined the Catholic church late in life in my 40's. When I think of a nun I think of Mother Angelica of EWTN. Yet again we hear another shocking, sickening news story coming out about the Catholic Church and it turns out this has been happening for years with no repercussions! Hide it away, bury it, no one will ever know. Typical. I'm furious, angry and upset. In truth I haven't been to Mass in about two years. In my heart I've been deeply troubled about events involving the Catholic church but I'm still Catholic in my heart and mind. This just makes me more resolved not to return to church until things change. I can't stop being Catholic. I've had a miracle happen to me and maybe one more so I know being Catholic is the right religion for me. I read in a Marian Apparition (when the Virgin Mary appears to someone) in 1634 the Virgin Mary appeared to nun in Ecuador and told her many prophesies. She said that there would be much corruption in the Catholic church in the late 19th and 20th century. She said, "The Sacred Sacrament of Holy Orders would be ridiculed, oppressed and despised. The demon would labor unceasingly to corrupt the clergy and would succeed with many of them. And these depraved priests who will scandalize the Christian people will incite the hatred of the bad Christians and and the enemies of the Roman Catholic Church to fall upon all priests". There is a lot more. This was called Our Lady of Good Success. She promised her intercession at the very moment when evil appears triumphant and when the authority abuses her power. This would mark as She said "the arrival of my hour when, in a marvelous way, I will dethrone the proud and accursed Satan trampling him under my feet." I do believe this. I wish Mother Angelica was still alive today. She was so wise and I'd love to hear her views on this.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 9:24:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 20:18:17 GMT
I have zero respect for the current Pope, especially with how the Pennsylvania abuse cases were handled. I saw the 60 Minute special and it was appalling. It took an administrative assistant who gave a damn to make it public. They did not punish enough people. This is my diocese. I refuse to donate one cent until actions are taken to hold priests accountable and proper compensation has been awarded to the victims. There is enough gold and art in the Vatican to support legal settlements and keep their parishes running. I often include an article from the newspaper in my "giving envelope" to make my point, albeit passive aggressively.
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Post by scraphappy0501 on Feb 7, 2019 22:12:16 GMT
Supporting an organization is a choice. Supporting this organization with its systemic pattern of abuse worldwide is indefensible. Because, let's be clear, this is not a situation in which random, occasional issues crop it. It is systemic. It's about who is attracted/recruited to the priesthood, what cultural norms are inculcated and encouraged, what behaviors are considered acceptable or even encouraged behind closed doors, and the endless oppression to silence "for the good of the church". Anyone who still supports this organization is complicit in the never ending parade of abuse. Complicit. Complicit in the continued systemic abuse and cover ups of abuse. If everyone stopped attending and giving money and making excuses for the selfish reasons of their own comfort, then they would truly be walking the way of Christ. Staying means you are complicit in the abuse and cover ups. Complicit. Ugly word for an ugly choice. This post hit me hard and caused me to stop and think so it's taken me a little bit of time to compose my thoughts and come back and post (and to be honest they're not entirely composed and I'm likely to ramble-my apologies in advance.)
I am a cradle Catholic. I attend Mass every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation. I taught religious education for many years. I'm an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion and a lector at my parish and have been for many years. I believe in the teachings of the Church. All of the abuse scandals absolutely sicken me. Yet I've asked myself how am I able to keep attending and supporting the Church. Two things come to me as answers. One, I believe the Church is its teaching/theology/beliefs, not the people (mostly men) who run the church, the church as an organization. I believe in the Catholic Church as a religion, the Word and teachings of God. I don't believe in the actions of many of the people who run the Catholic Church, the organization. I am separating the religion from the people who run the religion. And part of the religious beliefs/Word of God is that you keep the Sabbath holy by attending Mass on Sundays and Holy Days and take to heart and try to live the teachings of the Church. The religious beliefs do not say that I have to listen or believe in the words or actions of the people of the church, only the word of God. Even the Pope rarely speaks as the Word of God. Only Infallible Teachings from the Pope are the Word of God, and popes issue those very rarely. The rest is the word of man. I am not required to live by those, as they are man-made.
Two, the conversation between Abraham and God in Genesis 18 comes to mind. In that chapter of the Bible God wants to destroy Sodom and Abraham asks God, 'Will you really destroy the upright with the guilty?", and God says that for the sake of the upright he will not destroy the city just to get rid of the guilty. I am not willing to give up on the Church because of the actions of the guilty/evil when there are still good people in the Church.
As in almost any organization, there are good people and bad people in the Catholic Church as a physical entity. I am able to separate the physical entity from the spiritual entity(the teachings and theology.) As a non-religious example, I will use the United States of America. I believe in this country, in the Constitution, in the rights of the citizens of the country. I am a citizen of the USA and I live here. However, I don't always believe in the actions of the people who run the country, in fact often times I disagree with them and find some of them evil. However, the people running the USA are not the beliefs and principles of the country - they are just the organization running the country. Am I going to abandon the USA, renounce my citizenship and move to another country? No, because I believe in the principles of the USA. So even though I disagree with some of the actions of the Catholic Church organization, I believe in the theology and principles of the Church and I'm not going to abandon it and move to another religion, or to no religion at all.
The Catholic Church as an organization, many of the people of the Church, do good things. They provide for the poor, help in times of disasters, feed the hungry, provide educations in many countries for those who couldn't otherwise afford them. I'm not willing to abandon the good things of the church (the upright) just to destroy the guilty. I don't feel that by supporting the good of the Church I am being complicit with the bad. To use a familiar idiomatic expression, I am not willing to "throw the baby out with the bath water."
Again, my apologies for rambling. I am not an eloquent writer and don't always organize my thoughts well. But I did want to contribute my thoughts to this discussion. And they are just that - my thoughts, my feelings. I am not trying to persuade anyone with other thoughts that mine are right and theirs are wrong. That is not my point here. I am just expressing my views for the sake of discussion, to present my viewpoint. Thank you to those who have read this far.
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Post by birukitty on Feb 8, 2019 1:36:42 GMT
I thought you wrote our post very eloquently Scraphappy0501 and thank you so much for what you wrote. Today after I posted mine I left the house and took a 45 minute drive to pick something up and then drove back to where I live. It gave me time to think. I realized that I pray frequently asking for things (help for Peas here, today it was help for something I needed) but if I don't go to Mass I'm not praising and glorifying God as I should be. I thought again of the news of today and remembered my previous post when a Pea asked if those of us who were Catholics still were and why. I said something about not letting some evil men ruin my relationship with God and the Catholic church but in truth that had happened-I'd stopped going to Mass. And in my post today I said I wouldn't return to church until things changed. But who am I hurting by doing this? I am hurting myself and my relationship with God, Jesus and the Blessed Mother-the Holy Virgin.
I have a great devotion to the Blessed Mother. She is the one who led me to the Catholic religion and to her son Jesus to begin with by placing the Miraculous Medal in my path nineteen years ago. She made me feel as if I had to have it, that I couldn't leave without buying it even though this is something I normally wouldn't have been interested in at all. Through reading up on it, then the other Marian apparitions, then the Catholic Church I eventually became Catholic at the age of 41.
I think Scraphappy0501 said exactly what I couldn't say in a much more eloquent way. Thank you again for getting to the "core of it". There are evil men in every organization. The Catholic Church is huge and has been around the longest. It is also the only one who has kept records and has kept track of these horrific abuses. If we were to compare other religions (if they had kept track) who's to say they wouldn't come out with the same amount of horrific crimes if we adjust for church size? I am not excusing any of the crimes in any way! Please don't think that. I'm thinking aloud as I type. There is absolutely no excuse for even one instance of rape or any type of sexual crime against a child or nun! These priests should be immediately defrocked and turned over to the police. I also am not going to let these evil men keep me from being Catholic.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 9:24:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2019 15:39:57 GMT
I agree w/posters who say "there are evil men in all walks of life". Exactly. Which is why I will send my "tithes" to other than organized religions - which are no better or holier than any other organization. And I will keep my Sunday mornings to things that fill my soul. If others find meaning in churches, that is great. There are many paths to peace and kindness. Organized religions are not mine.
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