Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 15:29:35 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 13:48:41 GMT
Pope Francis on Sunday opened a three-week meeting of bishops that is expected to include a contentious debate on ordaining married men to ease the Amazon region’s priest shortage. The pope didn’t directly address the controversial topic during his sermon at Mass in St. Peter’s Basilica, but he did speak of the importance that church leaders not be bogged down by the “status quo.” nypost.com/2019/10/07/pope-francis-considers-lifting-celibacy-requirement-for-priests/
Wow. Getting "bogged down by the status quo" has pretty much been SOP of the Catholic Church. Of course the conservative Catholics are aghast.
" German Cardinal Gerhard Muüller of Germany is vehement: he doesn’t even want the topic brought up and has condemned the synod working document. He says it has “triggered fears of a pending change to Church doctrine.” He warns that it could actually cause a schism, leaving conservatives with no choice but to leave the church under Francis....
At the moment, many of the 2.8 million mostly Catholic people who live in the Amazon region, which skirts Bolivia, Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, French Guiana, Guyana, Peru, Venezuela and Suriname, don't have access to ordained priests. If they want to baptize newborns or bury their dead they have either to wait until a traveling priest shows up, which could be once a month or longer in some cases, or travel for miles to see the closest one which, as one can imagine, is almost as difficult with a newborn as it would be with a corpse.... Nuns are aplenty in the area and while they have done much of the heavy lifting like reading the Sunday liturgy in lieu of mass, they just don't have the power that deacons and priests have because of their gender. So they are left with the option of ordaining married men who qualify as viri probati and giving them full powers to conduct priestly duties. "
www.thedailybeast.com/vatican-may-approve-married-priests-but-conservative-catholics-arent-celebrating Dammit! Celibacy has been good enough for 1000 years, it's good enough now! Never mind that the world changes (and the church HAS changed this rule in the past). Conservatives would rather be mired in/bogged down by "tradition" - aka peer pressure from dead people - than deal with reality.
|
|
|
Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 15, 2019 13:54:43 GMT
Where it gets dicey for me (and this seems like a no brainer) is that they have a whole host of believers they are turning their backs on who want to worship in the Catholic tradition. It seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
|
|
schizo319
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,030
Jun 28, 2014 0:26:58 GMT
|
Post by schizo319 on Oct 15, 2019 14:33:35 GMT
My husband has always said that the celibacy requirement is partially what has allowed abuse of children to run rampant in the Catholic Church. I don't know that I put AS much stock in that theory (given that the Catholic Church isn't the only church in which leaders have abused children) as DH does, but I always thought it was an interesting point.
|
|
|
Post by pierkiss on Oct 15, 2019 14:39:41 GMT
The celibacy requirement has always been completely insane. I believe it is a contributing factor in the rampant abuse seen within the church. It is unrealistic to force a grown male (and female for that matter) to never have sex. (The other factor being those that do it to children are pedophiles).
|
|
blue tulip
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,005
Jun 25, 2014 20:53:57 GMT
|
Post by blue tulip on Oct 15, 2019 14:46:53 GMT
i think it should be abolished. tho, it seems like there is another option here they aren't exploring- they have a whole host of celibate nuns in the area, who can't have that power because of their gender? what would be worse to catholics, allowing priests to have sex, or nuns to be able to become priests? IMO it shouldn't be an either/or, just saying.
|
|
|
Post by jemmls4 on Oct 15, 2019 14:48:46 GMT
Or how about ordaining women? That would help resolve the problem. But I’d bet conservatives would be more aghast at that than married priests.
Coming from someone raised as Catholic, went to Catholic school, and had Catholic doctrine shoved in my face until my mom died two years ago.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 15:29:35 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 15:24:52 GMT
Yes, the horror of having to choose between ordaining women and allowing people w/priestly authority to have sex.
My word. What a horrible choice.
Vs. you know, celebrating that women WANT to perform "priestly" duties and that many men would perform priestly duties if they didn't also have to cut off sex for the rest of their lives.
But live in the past, my bishops. The sooner the young will see what's really valued in the church is being mired in the past vs. celebrating love and the present.
|
|
|
Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 15, 2019 15:32:37 GMT
Celibacy does not cause or contribute to child sexual abuse in any way shape or form! Celibacy is a VOW taken by choice to be a priest or nun. Married men and woman sexually abuse children too. It is the person, not the profession. Maybe they should screen their applicants more carefully!
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Oct 15, 2019 15:35:00 GMT
Yes, the horror of having to choose between ordaining women and allowing people w/priestly authority to have sex. My word. What a horrible choice. Vs. you know, celebrating that women WANT to perform "priestly" duties and that many men would perform priestly duties if they didn't also have to cut off sex for the rest of their lives.But live in the past, my bishops. The sooner the young will see what's really valued in the church is being mired in the past vs. celebrating love and the present. It’s not just sex, it’s also marriage. They are giving up that partnership and companionship that is so important in most people’s lives. The ultra-conservatives will always find something to complain about, no matter what. They should just do it and let the dust settle. Some will leave the Church, for sure, but I bet not nearly as many as might threaten.
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Oct 15, 2019 15:37:51 GMT
Celibacy does not cause or contribute to child sexual abuse in any way shape or form! Celibacy is a VOW taken by choice to be a priest or nun. Married men and woman sexually abuse children too. It is the person, not the profession. Maybe they should screen their applicants more carefully! No, but the fact that it’s a profession that only welcomes men who are willing to forgo relations with an adult woman makes it more likely to attract asexual, homosexual, and pedophiliac men. My uneducated opinion.
|
|
|
Post by bc2ca on Oct 15, 2019 15:45:54 GMT
Nuns are aplenty in the area and while they have done much of the heavy lifting like reading the Sunday liturgy in lieu of mass, they just don't have the power that deacons and priests have because of their gender. So they are left with the option of ordaining married men who qualify as viri probati and giving them full powers to conduct priestly duties. "
The only option is ordaining married men? With all those nuns doing the heavy lifting already. Sorry, I'm not really feeling sorry for the Catholic Church here. I do find it interesting that after the Great Schism (which divided Christianity into the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths), both faiths continued to allow married men to be ordained. A single man could not get married if he was already ordained, but if he was married first he could still become a priest. It was about 500 years later that the Catholic Church changed their rules.
|
|
|
Post by PolarGreen12 on Oct 15, 2019 15:50:14 GMT
Yes, the horror of having to choose between ordaining women and allowing people w/priestly authority to have sex. My word. What a horrible choice. Vs. you know, celebrating that women WANT to perform "priestly" duties and that many men would perform priestly duties if they didn't also have to cut off sex for the rest of their lives.But live in the past, my bishops. The sooner the young will see what's really valued in the church is being mired in the past vs. celebrating love and the present. It’s not just sex, it’s also marriage. They are giving up that partnership and companionship that is so important in most people’s lives. The ultra-conservatives will always find something to complain about, no matter what. They should just do it and let the dust settle. Some will leave the Church, for sure, but I bet not nearly as many as might threaten. This is what I was about to point out. I can only imagine that priests and nuns must feel incredibly lonely. Yes, they have a whole congregation surrounding them. But there must be something left lacking without the emotional connection that you get from a relationship a partner in life. Not to mention what you would get from having children.
|
|
|
Post by pierkiss on Oct 15, 2019 15:55:13 GMT
Celibacy does not cause or contribute to child sexual abuse in any way shape or form! Celibacy is a VOW taken by choice to be a priest or nun. Married men and woman sexually abuse children too. It is the person, not the profession. Maybe they should screen their applicants more carefully! Yes, but children are not the only victims of abuse at the hands of priests. Adults have been abused too, and eliminating the celibacy requirement could help reduce that. Obviously it won’t do anything about child abuse, because Priests perpetuating that are pedophiles.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 15:29:35 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 16:01:57 GMT
My great aunt said her uncles became priests because they could have all the women and drink they wanted without any responsibility of a family. If they got a woman pregnant, who was going to believe a priest was the father. I often wonder how many children they had?
|
|
|
Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 15, 2019 16:12:58 GMT
Celibacy does not cause or contribute to child sexual abuse in any way shape or form! Celibacy is a VOW taken by choice to be a priest or nun. Married men and woman sexually abuse children too. It is the person, not the profession. Maybe they should screen their applicants more carefully! No, but the fact that it’s a profession that only welcomes men who are willing to forgo relations with an adult woman makes it more likely to attract asexual, homosexual, and pedophiliac men. My uneducated opinion.Your opinion is spot on. The only problem on the list is pedphiliac men, who can be asexual, homosexual, bi, trans.... The issue is pedophiles!
|
|
|
Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 15, 2019 16:15:00 GMT
Celibacy does not cause or contribute to child sexual abuse in any way shape or form! Celibacy is a VOW taken by choice to be a priest or nun. Married men and woman sexually abuse children too. It is the person, not the profession. Maybe they should screen their applicants more carefully! Yes, but children are not the only victims of abuse at the hands of priests. Adults have been abused too, and eliminating the celibacy requirement could help reduce that. Obviously it won’t do anything about child abuse, because Priests perpetuating that are pedophiles. The same men would abuse, where ever they are!
|
|
|
Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 15, 2019 16:20:49 GMT
My great aunt said her uncles became priests because they could have all the women and drink they wanted without any responsibility of a family. If they got a woman pregnant, who was going to believe a priest was the father. I often wonder how many children they had? There have been stories for years of finding infant bones buried behind, under, near convents and monasteries. Either the nuns willingly participated or they were raped. No I do not have a scorce.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 15:29:35 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 17:09:36 GMT
My great aunt said her uncles became priests because they could have all the women and drink they wanted without any responsibility of a family. If they got a woman pregnant, who was going to believe a priest was the father. I often wonder how many children they had? There have been stories for years of finding infant bones buried behind, under, near convents and monasteries. Either the nuns willingly participated or they were raped. No I do not have a scorce. From what my aunt said her uncles only went after married women, but I do believe that anybody was fair game for the family priest.
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Oct 15, 2019 19:17:16 GMT
celibacy is a discipline not a doctrine for Catholic Priests - therefore is IS possible to change it without changing the belief of the Church.
In fact there already ARE married Catholic priests - typically married Anglican priests who have converted to Catholicism.
I think that in the circumstances specific to the Amazon region - that married priests may be the best solution. I'm not sure that allowing it there necessarily opens it up to the Church worldwide (any more than allowing Anglican converts did).
A friend of mine who is a priest has said that celibacy is a gift as well as a cross - that it would be very hard to have a wife and children while also ministering to a parish and fullfilling all of the duties of a priest. He has also said that Catholics (at least in the US) wouldn't monetarily support married priests and their families - tithing isn't as much a thing for Catholics as it is for some Protestant denominations - and I know in my parish, our financial report shows we're treading water at best financially.
As for the issue of pedophiles and men who prey on women - that's not a problem solely of priests, there are plenty of married men who also sin in that way.
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Oct 15, 2019 19:27:56 GMT
This is what I was about to point out. I can only imagine that priests and nuns must feel incredibly lonely. Yes, they have a whole congregation surrounding them I imagine that they do - especially today where most parishes have only a single priest and religious communities are shrinking. I think the days where a Catholic parish had multiple priests and a convent next door or down the road to staff the school provided much more companionship and community for the religious.
|
|
RosieKat
Drama Llama
PeaJect #12
Posts: 5,538
Jun 25, 2014 19:28:04 GMT
|
Post by RosieKat on Oct 15, 2019 23:51:31 GMT
For those interested, here is an article from a Catholic website. Why can't a priest ever marry?I have gotten very frustrated with the Catholic church. (I was raised as and consider myself Catholic.) There are way too many people worrying about how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin than how to actually live the faith. I'm not saying the former group are bad people by any means, but when my (unofficial) parish Facebook page is constantly full of arguments why we shouldn't hold hands during the Our Father rather than dealing with what I consider real substance, it's just hit a realm of unreality. To address the original topic, I don't see it happening. There are way too many people who will be way too much against it. I also suspect it's a far more limited discussion that will occur, rather than how it's been portrayed. I believe it's going to be more along the lines of let's brainstorm - include the idea of married priest - cross that one off - move on.
|
|
|
Post by refugeepea on Oct 16, 2019 0:14:18 GMT
Maybe they're following the money? It's more likely the Catholics who want birth control and don't care about priests marrying have a higher income or are living in a developed or diverse area. That's the cynic in me. Get an increase in donations if policies change.
|
|
TheOtherMeg
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,541
Jun 25, 2014 20:58:14 GMT
|
Post by TheOtherMeg on Oct 16, 2019 0:15:57 GMT
Nuns are aplenty in the area and while they have done much of the heavy lifting like reading the Sunday liturgy in lieu of mass, they just don't have the power that deacons and priests have because of their gender. So they are left with the option of ordaining married men who qualify as viri probati and giving them full powers to conduct priestly duties. "Because giving NUNS the powers that priests have would be waaaaaay more shocking than letting married men become priests (or "ordaining married men who qualify as viri probati and giving them full powers to conduct priestly duties," which apparently is not the same thing as becoming a priest -- but still has more powers than a full-fledged nun, FFS).
|
|
|
Post by birdgate on Oct 16, 2019 1:20:58 GMT
Aren't there any deacons anymore? In Catholic school growing up we had a married deacon, who was a surgeon in town with a big Irish family of ten kids who always gave mass in church.
|
|
carhoch
Pearl Clutcher
Be yourself everybody else is already taken
Posts: 3,028
Location: We’re RV’s so It change all the time .
Jun 28, 2014 21:46:39 GMT
|
Post by carhoch on Oct 16, 2019 1:34:45 GMT
I believe that’s the only way they can save the Catholic church ,They are running out of priests most of them are extremely old and there isn’t a lot of young men willing to embrace celibacy .
|
|
|
Post by nlwilkins on Oct 16, 2019 1:40:46 GMT
I just have to throw this in:
When I lived overseas and was the daughter of a missionary I saw first hand how much effort and time it took to minister to the "flock". A man with a family has to give up much family time in order to take care of his congregation in the way it was expected. Time spent with family and taking care of family was precious and meant missing out on something to do with the church. In the islands below us, known at the time as the Trust Territory of the Pacific, there was a group of missionaries called the Liebenzell missionaries who came from Germany and were connected to the Lutheran faith. Some of the women were called sisters and were not allowed to marry or have a family and it was a life long commitment. As Germans, they also had to give up their German citizenship to live in the Trust Territory as only US citizens could even visit there. The life they lived was devoted to service of the community they ministered to. What they had to offer was much more than the families that were doing the same thing as they had no other commitments. Life in the Trust Territory was very primitive and labor intensive. Electricity and running water was not available in big portions of the islands.
This was taught to me the reason priests did not marry or have families. Their lives were devoted to service to the church and the congregation of the church. They did not have to divide their attention between family and congregation.
Whatever the Catholic church decides to do, I hope they can come to a compromise and have two kinds of priests - the ones who marry and have families and then the ones who don't. It seems there is a need for both.
|
|
zookeeper
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,909
Aug 28, 2014 2:37:56 GMT
|
Post by zookeeper on Oct 16, 2019 3:37:01 GMT
This is what I was about to point out. I can only imagine that priests and nuns must feel incredibly lonely. Yes, they have a whole congregation surrounding them. But there must be something left lacking without the emotional connection that you get from a relationship a partner in life. Not to mention what you would get from having children. This times 1000. I m not Catholic but I am human and there is a very basic human need for companionship for human attachment. It is basic human nature that if you follow the Bible is written by God as a need. It is good for man not to be alone.
|
|
nogfz
Full Member
Posts: 219
Aug 3, 2019 21:32:31 GMT
|
Post by nogfz on Oct 16, 2019 4:27:17 GMT
Or how about ordaining women? That would help resolve the problem. But I’d bet conservatives would be more aghast at that than married priests. Coming from someone raised as Catholic, went to Catholic school, and had Catholic doctrine shoved in my face until my mom died two years ago. As a conservative married to a cradle Catholic, I can assure you that we have zero problem with ordaining women or abolishing the celibacy doctrine. Neither would the two nuns in the family. We are also pro-choice and support the LBGT community, btw. Signed: So tired of being painted with such a hugely inaccurate broad brush. *sigh*
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 15:29:35 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 4:37:40 GMT
Or how about ordaining women? That would help resolve the problem. But I’d bet conservatives would be more aghast at that than married priests. Coming from someone raised as Catholic, went to Catholic school, and had Catholic doctrine shoved in my face until my mom died two years ago. As a conservative married to a cradle Catholic, I can assure you that we have zero problem with ordaining women or abolishing the celibacy doctrine. Neither would the two nuns in the family. We are also pro-choice and support the LBGT community, btw. Signed: So tired of being painted with such a hugely inaccurate broad brush. *sigh* That's awesome. Sadly, that's not doctrine.
|
|
nogfz
Full Member
Posts: 219
Aug 3, 2019 21:32:31 GMT
|
Post by nogfz on Oct 16, 2019 4:51:07 GMT
As a conservative married to a cradle Catholic, I can assure you that we have zero problem with ordaining women or abolishing the celibacy doctrine. Neither would the two nuns in the family. We are also pro-choice and support the LBGT community, btw. Signed: So tired of being painted with such a hugely inaccurate broad brush. *sigh* That's awesome. Sadly, that's not doctrine. How many hours a day do you spend practicing the art of missing the point? I'm guessing quite a lot.
|
|