Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 13:22:50 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 14:24:34 GMT
That's awesome. Sadly, that's not doctrine. How many hours a day do you spend practicing the art of missing the point? I'm guessing quite a lot. "The point" is what the Catholic Church and Pope espouse.. If you choose not to follow the doctrine of the Church where it is stupid/hateful/mean that's great.
|
|
|
Post by bc2ca on Oct 16, 2019 16:34:00 GMT
I just have to throw this in: When I lived overseas and was the daughter of a missionary I saw first hand how much effort and time it took to minister to the "flock". A man with a family has to give up much family time in order to take care of his congregation in the way it was expected. Time spent with family and taking care of family was precious and meant missing out on something to do with the church. In the islands below us, known at the time as the Trust Territory of the Pacific, there was a group of missionaries called the Liebenzell missionaries who came from Germany and were connected to the Lutheran faith. Some of the women were called sisters and were not allowed to marry or have a family and it was a life long commitment. As Germans, they also had to give up their German citizenship to live in the Trust Territory as only US citizens could even visit there. The life they lived was devoted to service of the community they ministered to. What they had to offer was much more than the families that were doing the same thing as they had no other commitments. Life in the Trust Territory was very primitive and labor intensive. Electricity and running water was not available in big portions of the islands. This was taught to me the reason priests did not marry or have families. Their lives were devoted to service to the church and the congregation of the church. They did not have to divide their attention between family and congregation. Whatever the Catholic church decides to do, I hope they can come to a compromise and have two kinds of priests - the ones who marry and have families and then the ones who don't. It seems there is a need for both. Sorry, but this honestly doesn't make any sense to me. The Catholic Church is the ONLY Christian denomination that requires priests to be unmarried and celibate. It is insulting to all other Christian denominations, along with other major religions, to suggest their priests/rabbis/imans aren't able to successful raise a family while tending to their congregation. Monks and nuns in many (all?) religions require celibacy and are more involved in the missionary work IME, which is a different role than a parish priest.
|
|
|
Post by ktdoesntscrap on Oct 16, 2019 16:39:13 GMT
Or how about ordaining women? That would help resolve the problem. But I’d bet conservatives would be more aghast at that than married priests. Coming from someone raised as Catholic, went to Catholic school, and had Catholic doctrine shoved in my face until my mom died two years ago. I completely agree.. I was also raised catholic. I worked at a Catholic school in London and the Priest was married. He left the Anglican church when they ordained women and the Catholic Church let him and others become a Catholic priest. I could never get past the hypocrisy.
|
|
|
Post by crimsoncat05 on Oct 16, 2019 16:41:08 GMT
Sorry, but this honestly doesn't make any sense to me. The Catholic Church is the ONLY Christian denomination that requires priests to be unmarried and celibate. It is insulting to all other Christian denominations, along with other major religions, to suggest their priests/rabbis/imans aren't able to successful raise a family while tending to their congregation. ^^^ THAT.
|
|
|
Post by papersilly on Oct 16, 2019 18:14:15 GMT
they should drop that requirement. should have done it a long time ago.
|
|
|
Post by Basket1lady on Oct 16, 2019 18:20:39 GMT
How many hours a day do you spend practicing the art of missing the point? I'm guessing quite a lot. "The point" is what the Catholic Church and Pope espouse.. If you choose not to follow the doctrine of the Church where it is stupid/hateful/mean that's great. It’s not doctrine that priests cannot marry. It’s tradition and “discipline”, but not doctrine. Doctrine says “this is what Jesus said and we must follow it.” There are still deacons—our church in Virginia had 2 priests and 3 deacons. Deacons can come into the diaconate married, but cannot marry after they become a deacon. There are a few examples of married men becoming priests, but I’ve only heard of a handful of exceptions. And the example of married Anglican priests becoming Roman Catholic priests has already been given. This topic comes up every decade or so. And every time, I hear that the Church would allow a married priest before a woman could become a priest. A nun could hold a prayer service with hosts that have already been consecrated, but could not consecrate the hosts herself. The same way that an Extraordinary Eucharistic minister can bring communion to the home bound.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 13:22:50 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 19:55:37 GMT
"The point" is what the Catholic Church and Pope espouse.. If you choose not to follow the doctrine of the Church where it is stupid/hateful/mean that's great. It’s not doctrine that priests cannot marry. It’s tradition and “discipline”, but not doctrine. Doctrine says “this is what Jesus said and we must follow it.” There are still deacons—our church in Virginia had 2 priests and 3 deacons. Deacons can come into the diaconate married, but cannot marry after they become a deacon. There are a few examples of married men becoming priests, but I’ve only heard of a handful of exceptions. And the example of married Anglican priests becoming Roman Catholic priests has already been given. This topic comes up every decade or so. And every time, I hear that the Church would allow a married priest before a woman could become a priest. A nun could hold a prayer service with hosts that have already been consecrated, but could not consecrate the hosts herself. The same way that an Extraordinary Eucharistic minister can bring communion to the home bound. No, I was referring to her comment about LGBT, pro-choice, etc. doctrine.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 13:22:50 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 19:57:57 GMT
I just have to throw this in: When I lived overseas and was the daughter of a missionary I saw first hand how much effort and time it took to minister to the "flock". A man with a family has to give up much family time in order to take care of his congregation in the way it was expected. Time spent with family and taking care of family was precious and meant missing out on something to do with the church. In the islands below us, known at the time as the Trust Territory of the Pacific, there was a group of missionaries called the Liebenzell missionaries who came from Germany and were connected to the Lutheran faith. Some of the women were called sisters and were not allowed to marry or have a family and it was a life long commitment. As Germans, they also had to give up their German citizenship to live in the Trust Territory as only US citizens could even visit there. The life they lived was devoted to service of the community they ministered to. What they had to offer was much more than the families that were doing the same thing as they had no other commitments. Life in the Trust Territory was very primitive and labor intensive. Electricity and running water was not available in big portions of the islands. This was taught to me the reason priests did not marry or have families. Their lives were devoted to service to the church and the congregation of the church. They did not have to divide their attention between family and congregation. Whatever the Catholic church decides to do, I hope they can come to a compromise and have two kinds of priests - the ones who marry and have families and then the ones who don't. It seems there is a need for both. Sorry, but this honestly doesn't make any sense to me. The Catholic Church is the ONLY Christian denomination that requires priests to be unmarried and celibate. It is insulting to all other Christian denominations, along with other major religions, to suggest their priests/rabbis/imans aren't able to successful raise a family while tending to their congregation. Monks and nuns in many (all?) religions require celibacy and are more involved in the missionary work IME, which is a different role than a parish priest. Also, just because priests don't have kids doesn't mean they don't have family to look after? How about parents? Siblings? What about other care jobs where the person has huge stressful "clients" - like social workers working w/severe mental health patients but who also have a family. Grown-ups know how to prioritize the needs of a super-demanding job, like a priest or a social worker, AND a family. Happens EVERY day.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 13:22:50 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 5:07:01 GMT
Catholic leaders approve proposal that would allow some married men in the Amazon to be ordained as priests "Catholic bishops approved a proposal Saturday allowing some married men to be ordained as priests in the Amazon region. The proposal, which must be approved by Pope Francis, would be a historic change to the church's centuries-old tradition of unmarried priests. It passed by a vote of 128-41 and applies only to some churches in the Amazon region that are experiencing a shortage of priests. The region includes parts of Bolivia, Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, French Guiana, Guyana, Peru, Suriname and Venezuela. The proposal, known as "viri probati," refers to older Catholic men, who have stable families, are respected in their communities and who are already ordained as deacons in the church." www.cnn.com/2019/10/26/world/vatican-synod-married-priests-amazon/index.htmlFreakout from far-right conservative Catholics in 3.......2........
|
|
anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,402
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
|
Post by anniebygaslight on Oct 27, 2019 13:12:29 GMT
Or how about ordaining women? That would help resolve the problem. But I’d bet conservatives would be more aghast at that than married priests. Coming from someone raised as Catholic, went to Catholic school, and had Catholic doctrine shoved in my face until my mom died two years ago. Yep.
|
|
|
Post by hop2 on Oct 27, 2019 13:15:00 GMT
Maybe he should consider dropping the penis requirement
|
|
|
Post by hop2 on Oct 27, 2019 13:20:04 GMT
The celibacy requirement has always been completely insane. I believe it is a contributing factor in the rampant abuse seen within the church. It is unrealistic to force a grown male (and female for that matter) to never have sex. (The other factor being those that do it to children are pedophiles). how many early popes had children? Talk about hipocrisy...
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Oct 27, 2019 13:31:58 GMT
The celibacy requirement has always been completely insane. I believe it is a contributing factor in the rampant abuse seen within the church. It is unrealistic to force a grown male (and female for that matter) to never have sex. (The other factor being those that do it to children are pedophiles). how many early popes had children? Talk about hipocrisy... It was very common in medieval times for priests to have a “housekeeper” who was basically their wife in all but name. And let’s not even get started on all the sex - both consensual and not - that has most certainly happened among religious people (priests, monks, nuns) living communally and behind closed doors. Catholic (and Protestant Christian) rules about sexual morality were initially about controlling people, especially women, and were never intended to be followed by those in power. Really they still are about controlling people, but modern interpretations focus on things like “keeping pure” to make them more palatable for humans who have lost the habit of being unquestionably submissive to religious leaders. I spent 34 years in the Catholic Church. Once you see the lie, you can’t unsee it.
|
|
|
Post by coaliesquirrel on Oct 27, 2019 14:01:04 GMT
I never have been a Catholic, but my biggest issue with the celibate priesthood is that those same celibate, unmarried men are put in a position to counsel, advise, and judge others' courtships and marriages - things they couldn't themselves understand, having not experienced them. Yes, people can assist with things they haven't personally experienced. A therapist can treat someone bipolar even though they aren't themselves. But a marriage relationship can be the core of many diffiulties that can't *really* be understood by someone who hasn't been there. So does being female, but clearly it's FAR too much to think that women should be represented by other women, when they aren't even allowed men married to women who might have a bit of a closer perspective.
|
|
The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
Posts: 2,983
Jun 25, 2014 21:50:33 GMT
|
Post by The Great Carpezio on Oct 27, 2019 14:35:20 GMT
Or how about ordaining women? That would help resolve the problem. But I’d bet conservatives would be more aghast at that than married priests. Coming from someone raised as Catholic, went to Catholic school, and had Catholic doctrine shoved in my face until my mom died two years ago. As a conservative married to a cradle Catholic, I can assure you that we have zero problem with ordaining women or abolishing the celibacy doctrine. Neither would the two nuns in the family. We are also pro-choice and support the LBGT community, btw. Signed: So tired of being painted with such a hugely inaccurate broad brush. *sigh* You are a “cafeteria Catholic.” Therefore you are not a “real” catholic. Which is why I am no longer a real Catholic.
|
|
|
Post by flanz on Oct 27, 2019 15:19:46 GMT
Or how about ordaining women? That would help resolve the problem. But I’d bet conservatives would be more aghast at that than married priests. Coming from someone raised as Catholic, went to Catholic school, and had Catholic doctrine shoved in my face until my mom died two years ago. I turned my back on Catholicism long ago. So much harm done through the centuries by this institution.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 13:22:50 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 16:43:35 GMT
Or how about ordaining women? That would help resolve the problem. But I’d bet conservatives would be more aghast at that than married priests. Coming from someone raised as Catholic, went to Catholic school, and had Catholic doctrine shoved in my face until my mom died two years ago. I turned my back on Catholicism long ago. So much harm done through the centuries by this institution. Same here, my UU sister
|
|
|
Post by flanz on Oct 27, 2019 22:50:19 GMT
I turned my back on Catholicism long ago. So much harm done through the centuries by this institution. Same here, my UU sister
|
|
|
Post by flanz on Oct 27, 2019 22:56:19 GMT
Celibacy does not cause or contribute to child sexual abuse in any way shape or form! Celibacy is a VOW taken by choice to be a priest or nun. Married men and woman sexually abuse children too. It is the person, not the profession. Maybe they should screen their applicants more carefully! It seems a lot of closeted gay men and pedophiles have been attracted to the priesthood and used it to try to hide from their true selves. I suspect there would have been a whole lot fewer pedophiles serving as priests, "men of the cloth" as it were, if celibacy had not been a requirement to serve. So much of the system is built on secrecy and protecting those behaving in criminal, deviant ways.
|
|
|
Post by flanz on Oct 27, 2019 22:59:34 GMT
Yes, but children are not the only victims of abuse at the hands of priests. Adults have been abused too, and eliminating the celibacy requirement could help reduce that. Obviously it won’t do anything about child abuse, because Priests perpetuating that are pedophiles. The same men would abuse, where ever they are! Agreed, but they are in positions of respect and power and a lot of contact with kids!!!
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 13:22:50 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 14:33:43 GMT
Pope: NOPE "Pope Francis has rejected a proposal made by bishops at a landmark meeting in October to allow the ordination of married men in remote areas, a potentially momentous change that conservatives had warned would set the Roman Catholic Church on a slippery slope toward the lifting of priestly celibacy and the thrashing of church traditions.Francis’ decision, in a papal letter with the power of church teaching that was made public by the Vatican on Wednesday, surprised many given his openness to questions of priestly celibacy in “far-flung places” and his oft expressed desire for a more collegial and less top-down church.The pope’s supporters had hoped for revolutionary change. The decision, coming seven years into his papacy, raised the question of whether Francis’ promotion of discussing once-taboo issues is resulting in a pontificate that is largely talk.His closest advisers have already acknowledged that the pope’s impact has waned on the global stage, especially on core issues like immigration and the environment. His legacy, they have said, will ultimately reside inside the church where his authority is absolute.The pope’s refusal to allow married priests was likely to delight conservatives, many of whom have come to see Francis and his emphasis on a more pastoral and inclusive church as a grave threat to the rules, orthodoxy and traditions of the faith." www.nytimes.com/2020/02/12/world/europe/pope-married-priests.htmlThis will only continue the loss of members from the church - especially the young.
|
|
|
Post by pierkiss on Feb 12, 2020 14:58:46 GMT
What a disappointment.
Good old Catholics, completely tone deaf to the changing world to the bitter end.
I guess they haven’t run out of enough money yet. They absolutely will start singing a different tune once their reserves really start to dry up. They won’t want to start selling land or artifacts to make up for the loss.
|
|
|
Post by refugeepea on Feb 12, 2020 15:29:58 GMT
When the world changes, church doctrine/policies/whatever change. By church, I'm referring to virtually every church in existence.
ETA: I see this is an old thread and it didn't pass. Give it another 20 years and it will happen when they are even father from reality and even less relevant.
|
|
pyccku
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,817
Jun 27, 2014 23:12:07 GMT
|
Post by pyccku on Feb 12, 2020 15:52:02 GMT
Celibacy does not cause or contribute to child sexual abuse in any way shape or form! Celibacy is a VOW taken by choice to be a priest or nun. Married men and woman sexually abuse children too. It is the person, not the profession. Maybe they should screen their applicants more carefully! People don't become pedophiles because of the celibacy vow or because they are priests. Some pedophiles become priests because the celibacy vow and position allow them to use it as a cover for why they don't date or have relationships with adult women (or men).
|
|
|
Post by chlerbie on Feb 12, 2020 19:57:41 GMT
I just have to throw this in: When I lived overseas and was the daughter of a missionary I saw first hand how much effort and time it took to minister to the "flock". A man with a family has to give up much family time in order to take care of his congregation in the way it was expected. Time spent with family and taking care of family was precious and meant missing out on something to do with the church. In the islands below us, known at the time as the Trust Territory of the Pacific, there was a group of missionaries called the Liebenzell missionaries who came from Germany and were connected to the Lutheran faith. Some of the women were called sisters and were not allowed to marry or have a family and it was a life long commitment. As Germans, they also had to give up their German citizenship to live in the Trust Territory as only US citizens could even visit there. The life they lived was devoted to service of the community they ministered to. What they had to offer was much more than the families that were doing the same thing as they had no other commitments. Life in the Trust Territory was very primitive and labor intensive. Electricity and running water was not available in big portions of the islands. This was taught to me the reason priests did not marry or have families. Their lives were devoted to service to the church and the congregation of the church. They did not have to divide their attention between family and congregation. Whatever the Catholic church decides to do, I hope they can come to a compromise and have two kinds of priests - the ones who marry and have families and then the ones who don't. It seems there is a need for both. My niece is married to a minister and while his time is often used serving his parish, he still is able to be both a devoted husband and father. She is also heavily involved in the church.
|
|
|
Post by chlerbie on Feb 12, 2020 20:00:36 GMT
I really think the celibacy vow CAN lead to men abusing children--not necessarily because they are pedophiles, but because the FORCED celibacy might lead them to prey on the vulnerable and weak amongst them--the ones more easily hushed about what they are doing.
|
|