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Post by Merge on Oct 25, 2019 13:50:38 GMT
So this kind of piggybacks off of the thread about the women who thinks we should all stay home and submit to our husbands. I notice in teaching, which is a female-dominated profession, that in many schools, self-sacrifice is the most prized attribute a teacher can have. The "best" teachers stay after school for hours, tutor during their lunch and planning periods, give up their free time to attend their students' events or visit them at home, and work tirelessly "for the kids." Rarely is an educator singled out for recognition for excellent teaching. It's all about how much she sacrifices even outside of her teaching day, and the rallying cry is always "for the kids."
(On a personal note, I've had the opportunity to show "sacrifice" here at my school this week, and all of a sudden I am everybody's favorite teacher. Literally no one ever comes into my classroom to judge the quality of my teaching, but let me give up my one long planning period to sub for a teacher friend who broke her ankle, and all of a sudden I'm amazing. Principal commented to me that she hopes/expects to see more of this kind of "selflessness," which was a big red flag to me that they don't intend to do anything about our sub shortage and instead expect all of us to sacrifice our planning time.)My husband, on the other hand, works in a male-dominated profession. He works long hours when necessary, but when the work is done, he comes home. Or takes a long lunch. Or whatever. He has frequently commented that there are no prizes for long hours and no pay raises for warming a seat - he's judged solely on the quality of his work. So I started wondering if women working in business, medicine, or other fields that are not traditionally "women's" work feel pressure to sacrifice their personal time in order to be considered really good at their jobs. My hypothesis is that no, women who work in other fields are not expected to give up so much of their own lives and free time in order to be considered good at their jobs. I think this is unique to teachers and a few other professions that tend to be female dominated, and I think this attitude comes directly from the religious/patriarchal idea that men lead and women submit and sacrifice. I'm willing to be proven wrong. What do you all think? I don't agree at all. Dh is a teacher. He sacrifices when needed. His district has a clause in their contract that when called upon, you will cover a class during your planning period. After the 2nd coverage of a set school year, you get paid per diem. He also tutors after school, has kids come in early on late start day for test retakes, emails them, and has a district position as well. He feels it is his duty to help his students nay way he can during his 8 hour day (if he is not to attend a meeting). He is also department chair. And was also site IT but quit that. His site and district also have weekly, monthly, and yearly awards. So I am not sure what teaching has to do with being a female. My dad who worked in IT had to sacrifice days off or late hours. My female friend who us a surgeon has done the same. To me it has nothing to do with being in a female or male driven field but more so to do with being in a public service sector - fire, pd, health care, teacher. 🤷🏼‍♀️ Thanks for your perspective. As I've said above, I think the expectation that workers happily sacrifice without hope or expectation of reward (a raise, bonus or advancement) is unique to professions that have traditionally been dominated by women. It's not necessarily just long hours - it's the expectation that we happily put in long hours "for the kids" (or for nurses, "for the sick patients") without expecting anything in return. Teaching and nursing have traditionally been female professions - obviously there are men in these professions, but when societal expectations first arose around the attitude and work ethic a teacher or nurse should have, the professions were almost entirely female. In society's mind, these were jobs women did until they got married and began their "real" life. Thus they have been devalued, left without appropriate pay or any path for advancement that doesn't involve leaving the classroom. It sounds like your husband works hard. Does he get annual raises? Bonuses? If so, are they comparable to what similarly educated people in business would get? (And if so, does the district need any music teachers?)
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Post by auntkelly on Oct 25, 2019 14:03:17 GMT
My husband and I are both retired attorneys and we both always worked crazy long hours when we were in private practice. In private practice, it's all about how many hours you bill and collect, unless you are a rainmaker who brings in the big clients.
When I went to work for the government, I did not work as many hours, but when something came up, I was expected to do what had to be done to resolve the problem even if it meant giving up my weekend. My husband ended up going to work for a large independent oil company. He traveled and worked all the time.
My best friend’s husband has been a successful lawyer with a large law firm for over thirty years. Whenever we go anywhere with them, we know he will get phone calls from clients. His clients expect him to pick up the phone when they call, even if it is in the evening or on weekends. If he told them he would only take calls during office hours, they would go find another law firm to represent them.
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Post by Merge on Oct 25, 2019 15:35:16 GMT
My husband and I are both retired attorneys and we both always worked crazy long hours when we were in private practice. In private practice, it's all about how many hours you bill and collect, unless you are a rainmaker who brings in the big clients. When I went to work for the government, I did not work as many hours, but when something came up, I was expected to do what had to be done to resolve the problem even if it meant giving up my weekend. My husband ended up going to work for a large independent oil company. He traveled and worked all the time. My best friend’s husband has been a successful lawyer with a large law firm for over thirty years. Whenever we go anywhere with them, we know he will get phone calls from clients. His clients expect him to pick up the phone when they call, even if it is in the evening or on weekends. If he told them he would only take calls during office hours, they would go find another law firm to represent them. And does he get raises or bonuses for working these hours? Can he advance? My attorney BIL has received raises, bonuses and percentages of settlements in exchange for the crazy hours he puts in. He's not just doing it "for the clients." A couple of years ago he made partner and got equity in the firm, in reward for his long hours. As has been said above, the difference is not the crazy hours worked. It's the expectation that teachers will happily do so without hope of additional pay or promotion. For the kids.
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Post by lesserknownpea on Oct 25, 2019 19:58:36 GMT
I get what you’re saying Merge, and I would expect you are right. Yes, many people work long hours. My SIL, an accountant, is an example. But his salary reflects that, as well as his prospects for advancement. It’s not just the hours. It’s the pressure, the emotional blackmail, the demeaning patronizing praise if you’re a good little employee and take on tasks in addition to your own, or neglect your own needs or your family’s, “for the kids, or patients”. All without meaningful remuneration or career advancement. Years ago I worked at a care facility that was always short staffed. I knew if I didn’t come in on my night off, some of the dear patients I had grown fond of would sit in their own pee, or worse, have their call lights ignored when they desperately needed to get up and use the bathroom.
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Post by auntkelly on Oct 25, 2019 21:56:12 GMT
My husband and I are both retired attorneys and we both always worked crazy long hours when we were in private practice. In private practice, it's all about how many hours you bill and collect, unless you are a rainmaker who brings in the big clients. When I went to work for the government, I did not work as many hours, but when something came up, I was expected to do what had to be done to resolve the problem even if it meant giving up my weekend. My husband ended up going to work for a large independent oil company. He traveled and worked all the time. My best friend’s husband has been a successful lawyer with a large law firm for over thirty years. Whenever we go anywhere with them, we know he will get phone calls from clients. His clients expect him to pick up the phone when they call, even if it is in the evening or on weekends. If he told them he would only take calls during office hours, they would go find another law firm to represent them. And does he get raises or bonuses for working these hours? Can he advance? My attorney BIL has received raises, bonuses and percentages of settlements in exchange for the crazy hours he puts in. He's not just doing it "for the clients." A couple of years ago he made partner and got equity in the firm, in reward for his long hours. As has been said above, the difference is not the crazy hours worked. It's the expectation that teachers will happily do so without hope of additional pay or promotion. For the kids. My friend’s husband bills his clients for answering their late night phone calls, so he does get paid for the extra hours he works. When I worked as an attorney for a state agency, I did not receive any extra compensation for any overtime I put in. There was no room for advancement as there were only three attorneys working for the agency and any move I made would have been a lateral move. I worked for the agency for 12 years and in that time received two small raises which all state employees received. There were benefits to working for the state. There were a lot of paid holidays, job security and I didn’t have to worry about billable hours. The lower salary was worth the trade off at that time of my life. Government attorneys have always generally made less than attorneys in private practice. I don’t think it has anything to do with sex, since most government attorneys were men until about thirty years’ ago. I think it’s just a difference in private sector v public sector employment.
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Post by Merge on Oct 25, 2019 23:17:16 GMT
And does he get raises or bonuses for working these hours? Can he advance? My attorney BIL has received raises, bonuses and percentages of settlements in exchange for the crazy hours he puts in. He's not just doing it "for the clients." A couple of years ago he made partner and got equity in the firm, in reward for his long hours. As has been said above, the difference is not the crazy hours worked. It's the expectation that teachers will happily do so without hope of additional pay or promotion. For the kids. My friend’s husband bills his clients for answering their late night phone calls, so he does get paid for the extra hours he works. When I worked as an attorney for a state agency, I did not receive any extra compensation for any overtime I put in. There was no room for advancement as there were only three attorneys working for the agency and any move I made would have been a lateral move. I worked for the agency for 12 years and in that time received two small raises which all state employees received. There were benefits to working for the state. There were a lot of paid holidays, job security and I didn’t have to worry about billable hours. The lower salary was worth the trade off at that time of my life. Government attorneys have always generally made less than attorneys in private practice. I don’t think it has anything to do with sex, since most government attorneys were men until about thirty years’ ago. I think it’s just a difference in private sector v public sector employment. Same attitude/expectation of sacrifice for no pay in my current job, in an expensive private school run by a for-profit corporation. Not public sector. And let me tell you, it is galling as hell to be asked to sacrifice to save the school money so it can end up in some shareholder's pocket. Government attorneys can and do go to private practice to earn more. The entire teaching profession is so consistently devalued that it's generally not an option for us. My friends who teach at the slightly fancier private school down the road from mine make a bit more than I do, but not that much. Same expectation of sacrifice.
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Post by auntkelly on Oct 26, 2019 0:57:14 GMT
My friend’s husband bills his clients for answering their late night phone calls, so he does get paid for the extra hours he works. When I worked as an attorney for a state agency, I did not receive any extra compensation for any overtime I put in. There was no room for advancement as there were only three attorneys working for the agency and any move I made would have been a lateral move. I worked for the agency for 12 years and in that time received two small raises which all state employees received. There were benefits to working for the state. There were a lot of paid holidays, job security and I didn’t have to worry about billable hours. The lower salary was worth the trade off at that time of my life. Government attorneys have always generally made less than attorneys in private practice. I don’t think it has anything to do with sex, since most government attorneys were men until about thirty years’ ago. I think it’s just a difference in private sector v public sector employment. Same attitude/expectation of sacrifice for no pay in my current job, in an expensive private school run by a for-profit corporation. Not public sector. And let me tell you, it is galling as hell to be asked to sacrifice to save the school money so it can end up in some shareholder's pocket. Government attorneys can and do go to private practice to earn more. The entire teaching profession is so consistently devalued that it's generally not an option for us. My friends who teach at the slightly fancier private school down the road from mine make a bit more than I do, but not that much. Same expectation of sacrifice. While some teachers such as yourself work for private schools, the vast majority of teachers are public employees and therefore I believe the public sector drives the rate of compensation teachers are paid. In the city I live, private schools generally pay teachers even less than public schools. While it is true that government attorneys can move from the public sector to the private sector and make more money, I think this is due to the fact that the private sector, rather than the public sector is driving the rate of compensation for attorneys. As I understood your original post, you were suggesting that teachers were expected to do so much for their students for so little pay because of sexism. I was just suggesting that I think it has more to do w/ the fact that teachers are generally public sector employees and public sector employees tend to make less than private sector employees. I think that in general teachers are underpaid and overworked, but I don't think it's primarily due to sexism.
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pridemom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,843
Jul 12, 2014 21:58:10 GMT
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Post by pridemom on Oct 26, 2019 16:45:29 GMT
My schedule is like your DH. I work as long as I have to, but I leave when I am done. My work is entirely judged based on the quality of my work, not quantity that i put in to get it done. In fact, I would say that "sacrificing" is looked upon in a negative way. That's not to say that putting in long hours never happens but it is few and far between. I work for the state, in the department that is second only to Highway Patrol for male dominance, and this is true for my work environment. Our director impresses upon us that family comes first. I heard a member of the executive leadership say a previous director chastised him for traveling to a work related conference on his daughter’s birthday because he could have sent someone under him.
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Post by jubejubes on Oct 26, 2019 18:14:37 GMT
Not sure if my reply in this thread is applicable, but when I was in high school, & had no classes in certain "class periods", I was paid minimum wage to "teach or oversee" class of freshmen & sophomore classes. I filled out the appropriate forms for minimum wage pay & the money was put directly into my bank account (circa 1976-1978). Saved the school from finding a sub and since I was in a "spare", I was paid to watch the class, to do the work that the teacher had left to cover. This is in Canada.
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craftymom101
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,776
Jul 31, 2014 5:23:25 GMT
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Post by craftymom101 on Oct 26, 2019 20:25:49 GMT
I am a first year teacher and I am encouraged to be involved, but it’s not demanded from me. If I cover a class I am paid comp time. I volunteered to chaperone homecoming without any expectation of being paid/comped and I found out yesterday that the school is giving all the volunteers gift cards as a thank you.
I am a teacher sponsor for a club (I am paid a stipend) and I sponsor three football players (unpaid). Every time my mentor comes into my classroom he thanks me for my time and for teaching at my school. I’ve felt nothing but appreciated.
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