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Post by Merge on Oct 24, 2019 13:15:08 GMT
So this kind of piggybacks off of the thread about the women who thinks we should all stay home and submit to our husbands.
I notice in teaching, which is a female-dominated profession, that in many schools, self-sacrifice is the most prized attribute a teacher can have. The "best" teachers stay after school for hours, tutor during their lunch and planning periods, give up their free time to attend their students' events or visit them at home, and work tirelessly "for the kids." Rarely is an educator singled out for recognition for excellent teaching. It's all about how much she sacrifices even outside of her teaching day, and the rallying cry is always "for the kids."
(On a personal note, I've had the opportunity to show "sacrifice" here at my school this week, and all of a sudden I am everybody's favorite teacher. Literally no one ever comes into my classroom to judge the quality of my teaching, but let me give up my one long planning period to sub for a teacher friend who broke her ankle, and all of a sudden I'm amazing. Principal commented to me that she hopes/expects to see more of this kind of "selflessness," which was a big red flag to me that they don't intend to do anything about our sub shortage and instead expect all of us to sacrifice our planning time.)
My husband, on the other hand, works in a male-dominated profession. He works long hours when necessary, but when the work is done, he comes home. Or takes a long lunch. Or whatever. He has frequently commented that there are no prizes for long hours and no pay raises for warming a seat - he's judged solely on the quality of his work.
So I started wondering if women working in business, medicine, or other fields that are not traditionally "women's" work feel pressure to sacrifice their personal time (ETA: without any expectation of a raise, bonus or advancement - just doing it "for the kids") in order to be considered really good at their jobs.
My hypothesis is that no, women who work in other fields are not expected to give up so much of their own lives and free time (ETA:without any compensation other than the gratitude we're supposed to feel at doing it "for the kids") in order to be considered good at their jobs. I think this is unique to teachers and a few other professions that tend to be female dominated, and I think this attitude comes directly from the religious/patriarchal idea that men lead and women submit and sacrifice.
I'm willing to be proven wrong. What do you all think?
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garcia5050
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,770
Location: So. Calif.
Jun 25, 2014 23:22:29 GMT
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Post by garcia5050 on Oct 24, 2019 13:23:58 GMT
I’m not a teacher. I do development work for a bank. Men and women are both expected to “work until the job gets done.” Sacrificing weekends and working 12 hours a day is expected from everyone on the team, regardless of gender. Rewards and blame are distributed equally. For the most part.
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keithurbanlovinpea
Pearl Clutcher
Flowing with the go...
Posts: 4,302
Jun 29, 2014 3:29:30 GMT
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Post by keithurbanlovinpea on Oct 24, 2019 13:26:37 GMT
I used to feel this way and I think in my industry, for career movement purposes, it is somewhat expected. But I decided that the sacrifice was not worth the rewards, and now I'm a happy middle manager who finishes my work and goes home
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smartypants71
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,816
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Jun 25, 2014 22:47:49 GMT
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Post by smartypants71 on Oct 24, 2019 13:28:58 GMT
My schedule is like your DH. I work as long as I have to, but I leave when I am done. My work is entirely judged based on the quality of my work, not quantity that i put in to get it done. In fact, I would say that "sacrificing" is looked upon in a negative way. That's not to say that putting in long hours never happens but it is few and far between.
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Post by Merge on Oct 24, 2019 13:41:58 GMT
I’m not a teacher. I do development work for a bank. Men and women are both expected to “work until the job gets done.” Sacrificing weekends and working 12 hours a day is expected from everyone on the team, regardless of gender. Rewards and blame are distributed equally. For the most part. Would you say that there’s an expectation that you work until YOUR particular job is done, or are you expected to find ways outside the parameters of your job and on your own time to prove how good you are?
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Post by compeateropeator on Oct 24, 2019 13:43:40 GMT
I was a manager at a bank for 15 years. We went through many conversions and acquisitions and I worked a lot of hours, most weekends, and brought work home...a lot. It was expected and gender had no baring. I now work in IT for a hospital/health network, also going through a major conversion, and again long hours are expected and gender plays no part. I think the industry and nature of the work is more indicative of expected sacrifice than gender. But that is just my opinion and I may be way off the mark. ETA - I just read your last post, and in both of the situations above, it was mostly doing your own work, because much of it is very specific. But you are also expected to be a team player and that may be to try and help outside the parameters of your particular job.
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Post by silverlining on Oct 24, 2019 13:53:41 GMT
I think that in many professional jobs, people are expected to do whatever it takes to get all the work done. The primary-care physicians in my family, for example, spend their work days seeing patients, and then do all the charting and responding to patient e-mails from home. No one says we expect you to work 12 hour days, but their own expectation is that they spend as much time as it takes with each patient to really understand what's going on and to educate them about their health. And they also need to do all the computer work somehow or another. This applies equally to males and females.
I see the same thing with friends, male and female, who travel a lot for work. Their travel time is spent working, or they're giving up their evenings to fly somewhere so they can work beginning in the morning, or both.
Another friend, a male, sometimes spends hours every day in meetings, and evenings and weekends doing the preparation for the meetings, and all the actual work on their project.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 24, 2019 13:56:33 GMT
I spent the majority of my working career in a male dominated field where there was no concept of personal time. I worked 80-100 hours a week. Evenings, weekends, holidays were utterly meaningless. I spent an entire cross country flight on the air-phone at $5 a minute on the way to a funeral so that I could have an hour off my phone during the service. There was no kudos for warming a seat. But there was absolutely no belief that you were EVER off work. I did a fair amount of international work and had calls at any time of the night. You had to be willing to give up literally 100% of your free time at any given time to be considered competent at your job, let alone good. I don't miss the days when a phone call could have me on a flight a few hours later. There were less than 20% women - and zero mothers.
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mvavw
Full Member
Posts: 344
Jun 25, 2014 20:21:43 GMT
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Post by mvavw on Oct 24, 2019 14:01:52 GMT
This is like what I've been seeing in Girl Scouts, especially as the girls get older. There are expectations put on the girls to constantly give time.
So many of the fun unit activities are planned for the younger girls (many are planned by the older girls or the older girls are expected to volunteer to help run them).
A lot of the unit activities for the older girls are volunteer activities - baking for the food pantry, volunteering at local events and for local programs.
I'm not saying that the girls shouldn't volunteer, but as a troop, we are picky about what we sign up for and try to keep a balance of fun/educational girl activities and service activities. Most of the girls in my troop are also doing community service outside of girl scouts too (for the comprehensive diploma and various honor societies and clubs).
I feel that it's also important for our girls to see the value of their time and that it's okay to say no to a request of time.
(Btw, this is coming from someone who has spent much of my life volunteering and who met my husband and many lifelong friends through my service sorority. Community service is definitely an important part of my life.)
so anyway, while not in a work environment, I do see this happening to young women in a program that is supposed to be teaching leadership and sisterhood.
At work, I'm the only one in my office. It's definitely a service type of environment, so a big part of my job is going out of my way to be helpful. People acknowledge that I do go out of my way, and that I know my job well.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 24, 2019 14:04:38 GMT
I work on an accounting team of 10. My boss is the only man. I don't feel that gender plays any part in any of what we do. I don't feel it in any of our expectations at all. When work gets tough, we all attack it. We are lucky because for the most part things go pretty smooth and boring. I go to work, I do my job, and I come home. Sure there are some irritations, but I like the lack of stress in my choice.
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Post by quinlove on Oct 24, 2019 14:12:02 GMT
Merge ~ my dd is an elementary school teacher and she works a lot like you do. She stays wayyyy past when her students leave. Working on various things. She’s been teaching for a long time, but I think she gets disenchanted more every year.
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Post by SallyPA on Oct 24, 2019 14:24:30 GMT
I’m a physician assistant who has worked for the same male physician for almost 15 years. I have never had to sacrifice personal time for the sake of my job or advancement or praise. Studying for my damn board exam every 10 years (used to be 6), however, is completely different and requires about 6 months solid studying and completely sucks for my family. But that’s the same for all PAs.
I have many PA colleagues, both men and women, and I don’t think your hypothesis holds up in medicine. Our value and success and accolades are not dependent on how much we sacrifice our personal lives for the sake of a career.
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jennc
Shy Member
Posts: 24
Nov 18, 2015 17:05:23 GMT
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Post by jennc on Oct 24, 2019 14:31:32 GMT
I disagree. I work in a man's world and I sacrificed to get where I am today. Luckily it all paid off because 25 years later I am well respected and a known as a leader in my industry. I put off having children until my career was established, I worked long hours (nights and weekends) to meet deadlines and I worked harder to prove that a woman can work in a man's industry. I also bit my tongue a lot when I was called hon and sweetie on the phone. I think it is very narrow minded to think only in "some" professions women are not expected to give up so much of their own lives and free time. I see a lot women across the board working hard and I am proud of how far we have come in 100 years.
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Post by Sorrel on Oct 24, 2019 14:41:44 GMT
I’m a school speech therapist. In a Facebook group I’m in for SLPs, people were complaining about our horrendous caseloads/workloads, and another SLP chimed in with “Well, you shouldn’t have joined this career then...it’s a CALLING.” Along with some choice “it’s for the children!” comments as well. My husband who works in IT has never experienced anything like that.
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Post by Merge on Oct 24, 2019 14:48:30 GMT
I’m a school speech therapist. In a Facebook group I’m in for SLPs, people were complaining about our horrendous caseloads/workloads, and another SLP chimed in with “Well, you shouldn’t have joined this career then...it’s a CALLING.” Along with some choice “it’s for the children!” comments as well. My husband who works in IT has never experienced anything like that. And that’s really what I’m getting at. I understand that people in many professions work long hours and sacrifice their time. The whole thing where your job is supposed to be a calling - like literally you can never do enough “for the kids” -or you have no value as a teacher, is what I think is different. Also, the emphasis on this perception of calling over actual demonstrated teaching skills is different from most other professions. I have seen lots of teachers who put in tons of hours but frankly suck at instruction and classroom management. They’re still valued as “great” teachers because of that perception that time = increased love for kids.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 11:17:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2019 14:48:32 GMT
Many professionals work long hours. I usually take work home. When a staff member of mine was caring for a sick relative, we picked up the slack. I think employees should continue to work to improve their performance or product. Not to the extent that they have no personal life of course, but that to me is what a professional is. I do not get any recognition for working longer hours - it's what is necessary to get the job done. I work in law, but as the accounting director for the firm. Predominately male workforce. Most of us at the director level work the same as I do - do what it takes to get the job done.
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
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Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Oct 24, 2019 15:22:33 GMT
As an accountant who used to do personal taxes, I pretty much lived at the office from February to April so, no, I don't think that's true. I would imagine that lawyers and doctors would disagree as well.
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Post by busy on Oct 24, 2019 15:24:05 GMT
I work in mobile software development, which is definitely male-dominated. And we all work all the goddamn time, regardless of gender. Tech has loads of problems with lack of diversity and white men disproportionately advancing/succeeding. But we pretty much all worship on the stupid altar of "I'm available all the time because I'm just that important."
I think there's validity to what the OP is saying in more traditional fields.
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Post by mikklynn on Oct 24, 2019 15:25:35 GMT
I’m not a teacher. I do development work for a bank. Men and women are both expected to “work until the job gets done.” Sacrificing weekends and working 12 hours a day is expected from everyone on the team, regardless of gender. Rewards and blame are distributed equally. For the most part. Would you say that there’s an expectation that you work until YOUR particular job is done, or are you expected to find ways outside the parameters of your job and on your own time to prove how good you are? That. I recently retired as a senior project engineer for a heavy industrial contractor. If you aren't working 60 hours a week and traveling, you are not a team player. They are quickly finding out our young engineers will not live like that. They all quit. ETA - We were also expected to check email and texts 24/7. It's a big part of why I left.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 24, 2019 15:28:14 GMT
But we pretty much all worship on the stupid altar of "I'm available all the time because I'm just that important." It is very important to me that this have no place in my life. I would love to see some pushback on this philosophy because I think it's detrimental to our health and well being.
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Post by nlwilkins on Oct 24, 2019 15:31:35 GMT
I am surprised to hear that your teaching skills were not judged and only your willingness to sacrifice seemed to matter. Are you not assessed twice a year by a administrator who comes in and watches you teach for an hour like we were? Also, administrators were in the classrooms visiting and evaluating. We even had programs where we visited each other's classrooms to see if we could learn from each other. There were other ways our teaching skills were evaluated as well. Sacrifice had no bearing on how good a teacher we were considered to be. Some of the teachers considered to be the greatest were the ones who were out the door as soon as allowed and did not come in until required. That was part of why they were considered so good, that they did not have to spend hours and hours of their own time completing their job.
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Post by busy on Oct 24, 2019 15:39:44 GMT
But we pretty much all worship on the stupid altar of "I'm available all the time because I'm just that important." It is very important to me that this have no place in my life. I would love to see some pushback on this philosophy because I think it's detrimental to our health and well being. It 100% is. No doubt about it. The flip side is - and I'm not saying it's a satisfactory trade off for everyone, but it is for me - there's usually also a lot of flexibility. I personally work remotely. I can do 90% of my job with just my iPhone and/or iPad and 100% with my laptop, completely unchained to any location. And I have complete control of my own schedule. I work a lot of extra hours over the course of most weeks, but it's not uncommon that I'm doing that from my in-laws' beach house because we decided at the last moment to head to the coast for a few days because the weather is nice. For me and my family, it works and it doesn't feel onerous to me. We'll see if I still feel the same way after I start my new job at a startup in a couple weeks and work even more insane hours 🤣
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Oct 24, 2019 15:43:52 GMT
Many professionals work long hours. I usually take work home. When a staff member of mine was caring for a sick relative, we picked up the slack. I think employees should continue to work to improve their performance or product. Not to the extent that they have no personal life of course, but that to me is what a professional is. I do not get any recognition for working longer hours - it's what is necessary to get the job done. I've worked in FDA-regulated industries my whole career (medical devices, nutritional products, etc.) and what I bolded above just should NOT be done in these industries. Taking work home jeopardizes the integrity of the data (possibility of losing original data, compromising potentially confidential information, etc.)... and FDA regulations actually see proper staffing levels and adequate training (including cross-training) as part of the company's management responsibility. If a company is constantly short-staffed so that people have to continually work really long hours and/or the integrity of the product is jeopardized by tired, untrained, or over-burdened staff, that is a potential audit observation against the company's management. The company should be staffed appropriately and trained appropriately so this situation doesn't occur. One of our very dear friends is a career educator and was continually doing after-school programs for the kids, doing IT-related things at the school where he worked to help out the other teachers, mentoring newer teachers, etc. and he NEVER got any recognition for ANY of that additional sacrifice on his part. On the contrary, he actually got written up and put on an 'improvement' plan because he actually held his kids responsible for doing their work (3rd, 4th, 5th grade) and not just 'passing' them thru his classes. He ended up leaving the profession altogether and taking his retirement because of that. He did go back to teaching at a charter 'traditional' school, but he does NOT have to do all of that 'above-and-beyond' stuff any longer. I think the 'sacrifice for your job' attitude is part of our American society, unfortunately-- and maybe teaching more so than that. Unless it's tax season and you're an accountant, or you have a huge project deadline looming, etc. (in my job those times would be if we have an outside inspection coming up or an inspection going on) then there is ALWAYS 'more' work to be done, and there will be more time to do it. After that rush is over, it should let up and be more regular. Like the saying goes: on on their deathbed, no one ever says 'I wish I had worked more hours.' What people say is 'I wish I had traveled more, I wish I had spent more time with my family' etc. But we pretty much all worship on the stupid altar of "I'm available all the time because I'm just that important." ^^^ that is SOOOO wrong. I'm sorry, it just IS. I'm with jeremysgirl on this one. What if you get sick, in a car accident, etc. and you're out of the office for three months with no advance notice? NO one should be so 'important' to their companyand have such specialized skills that their job can't be done by someone else if necessary. If that's the way anyone's company works, that's a shortcoming that should be put squarely on the shoulders of the management in charge for not staffing, planning, and/or training appropriately.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 24, 2019 15:43:55 GMT
It is very important to me that this have no place in my life. I would love to see some pushback on this philosophy because I think it's detrimental to our health and well being. It 100% is. No doubt about it. The flip side is - and I'm not saying it's a satisfactory trade off for everyone, but it is for me - there's usually also a lot of flexibility. I personally work remotely. I can do 90% of my job with just my iPhone and/or iPad and 100% with my laptop, completely unchained to any location. And I have complete control of my own schedule. I work a lot of extra hours over the course of most weeks, but it's not uncommon that I'm doing that from my in-laws' beach house because we decided at the last moment to head to the coast for a few days because the weather is nice. For me and my family, it works and it doesn't feel onerous to me. We'll see if I still feel the same way after I start my new job at a startup in a couple weeks and work even more insane hours 🤣 I can see that being part of the trade off. I cannot work from home. I must go into my office and do my job. Luckily, I have flexibility in my hours. As long as I'm getting my work done.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 24, 2019 15:52:31 GMT
I have been a teacher and my husband has been a teacher and neither of us has ever felt the way described in the OP 🤷🏻‍♀️
On the contrary, my husband chose it in part because it’s a great career to have with a family. He never works late into the night. He can be home in the afternoon and evening so he gets lots of time with the kids.
Just yesterday I had a flat tire and he left work early to help me. The principal just said “of course you can go.” He took 6 weeks off when each of our kids was born. He takes days off to do family things. Once he even took a week off so we could do Disney in the off season.
He has never had to do free tutoring. They get paid extra if they have kids who need after school tutoring. No one checks or cares what hours they’re there as long as lesson plans and grades are turned in. Lesson plans are mostly done at the district level through “specialists” now, so that’s more paperwork than any actual planning. He doesn’t have a problem taking days off.
There are other issues with the job, of course, like having to spend our own money on the classroom and supplies, and discipline issues, but long hours has never been something we’ve encountered.
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Post by busy on Oct 24, 2019 15:55:47 GMT
^^^ that is SOOOO wrong. I'm sorry, it just IS. What if you get sick, in a car accident, etc. and you're out of the office for three months with no advance notice? NO one should be so 'important' for their business and have such specialized skills that their job can't be done by someone else. If that's the way anyone's company works, that's a shortcoming that should be put squarely on the shoulders of the management in charge for not staffing, planning, and/or training appropriately. No... it's not quite that. It's really not that the business demands it, and of course most companies have contingency plans for all of those scenarios. But it's the ethos in the industry. It's bullshit signaling amongst staff to each other... and because it benefits companies, they don't stop it. Frankly, it's almost impossible to stop it. It's an industry thing, for the most part. ETA: And let me be clear, the signaling is mostly about one thing... building a reputation with your co-workers. People move jobs a lot in tech and if you've established yourself as someone who is dedicated and gets shit done, when person X gets a job offer and equity stake at not-yet-announced super hot startup Y, they're likely to recommend you for a position there too.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Oct 24, 2019 15:56:45 GMT
it’s a great career to have with a family. He never works late into the night. He can be home in the afternoon and evening so he gets lots of time with the kids. it sounds like it depends on the school district, what your classroom is, and the mindset of the administration you're working for. My sister is a music teacher and doesn't have quite so much of it either, but like I said, our friend Dennis DEF. saw the downside of the 'do more and more to show you care' mindset where he used to work.
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Post by Merge on Oct 24, 2019 15:58:55 GMT
I am surprised to hear that your teaching skills were not judged and only your willingness to sacrifice seemed to matter. Are you not assessed twice a year by a administrator who comes in and watches you teach for an hour like we were? Also, administrators were in the classrooms visiting and evaluating. We even had programs where we visited each other's classrooms to see if we could learn from each other. There were other ways our teaching skills were evaluated as well. Sacrifice had no bearing on how good a teacher we were considered to be. Some of the teachers considered to be the greatest were the ones who were out the door as soon as allowed and did not come in until required. That was part of why they were considered so good, that they did not have to spend hours and hours of their own time completing their job. Yes, we're formally evaluated - in my case, by an administrator who has no idea what I do and can't really effectively evaluate my teaching. I guess I'm talking more about peer, parent and cultural perception. A teacher who shows up on time and leaves on time, eats her lunch and takes her planning period without having small group counseling/instruction in her room is considered "less" by many, no matter how good her actual teaching skills or how high her evaluation. A teacher who strikes for reasonable pay and class size is "selfish" and "not there for the kids." A teacher who pushes back against spending another Saturday doing mandatory tutorials is "not there for the kids." A teacher who chooses to go home to her own kids rather than running an unpaid after school club or making home visits is "not fully committed." None of these extra things are part of the actual job of teaching. They're not examples of working necessary long hours or staying until the job is done. They're examples of teachers being expected, in many cases, to do additional unpaid work that used to be done by tutors, parents, counselors, after-school camp instructors and others. Telling teachers they're supposed to have a "calling" and "do it for the kids" is a guilt tactic used to get them to do this unpaid work. ETA: to give an example - the expectation that we give our planning time to sub for each other rather than the district or school making sure there are enough subs (by paying them a living wage, for starters) is part of the cultural shift my current principal hopes to see here. We're told to do it for the kids and to be a team player. I'm not sure how a string of 45-minute frazzled subs over the course of the day is better for the kids than a paid, dedicated sub (spoiler: it's not). I find what they really mean when they say "do it for the kids" is "do it to save us money."
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 11:17:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2019 16:12:33 GMT
I like to work. I don't mind bringing it home. I get my time off and they are generous with time when life gets in the way. We lost my mom in December and DH's mom in February. My daughter was just diagnosed with epilepsy in February. Last week we spent 4 days at Children's Hospital for neuro testing. They appreciate my work ethic and that I get the job done and do not dock me for the time.
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Post by Ellie on Oct 24, 2019 16:24:16 GMT
I work in an operational role (non-academic) at a higher ed institution, managing a small team of 3 within a larger 7-person team. Unfortunately I do feel that I have to work harder and longer hours than my male counterparts. For a long time I wondered if I just was inefficient but I've realized that, no, the expectations are too high.
What makes me ticked off, though, is when leadership says they don't expect us to take work home. But if I didn't, I'd fall behind and that would be noticed for sure. And my performance would be perceived as lacking.
Maybe I could have prevented this when I first started by not rising to these expectations but I don't think so. And I'm not the only female who has experiences this.
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