MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on Dec 4, 2014 17:04:17 GMT
We have the case of Eric Garner. For those not familiar with this case, here you go: Jon Stewart will catch you up. Basically though, this really big guy was suspected of selling loose cigarettes on the street, is confronted by plain clothes and uniformed officiers, didn't put up a fight, was put in a choke hold (illegal in NY) and pinned down to the point of lethal suffocation. I supported the Grand Jury's decision in Ferguson, but I wholeheartedly REJECT what happened in NY. I mean, there is video evidence...you can see he was put in a choke hold, he's saying on camera "I can't breathe, I can't breathe" in strangled gasps, he didn't rush the cops, he had his hands up!...how can they NOT indict? THIS is something to protest, IMO. THIS is corruption...holding the "blue line" indeed. Oh, they DID indict one person. They indicted the bystander who filmed the event. I'm not even lying.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 27, 2024 10:43:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 17:09:04 GMT
I have been vocal that I do not support the grand jury's failure to indict Darren Wilson, but this is an even more egregious case. This case makes me just sick. Almost as sick as the John Crawford case. The choke hold the officer used has been against police policy for somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 years. I don't even know what the hell is going on in our country anymore. It's so disheartening.
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raindancer
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,095
Jun 26, 2014 20:10:29 GMT
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Post by raindancer on Dec 4, 2014 17:14:56 GMT
I have no words.
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Post by Merge on Dec 4, 2014 17:17:07 GMT
I agree with the OP.
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MaryMary
Pearl Clutcher
Lazy
Posts: 2,975
Jun 25, 2014 21:56:13 GMT
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Post by MaryMary on Dec 4, 2014 17:24:17 GMT
i don't understand how the grand jury came to this decision. The video is heartbreaking. He did nothing... Nothing at all, except for having the nerve to be a large African American.
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Dec 4, 2014 17:24:20 GMT
I believe even the medical examiner ruled his death a homocide by strangulation? I forget the exact terminology. But that video is exactly why I support cameras for cops.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 27, 2024 10:43:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 17:25:02 GMT
This case DISGUSTS me. There is absolutely no reason he should not be indicted. Not one.
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MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on Dec 4, 2014 17:27:34 GMT
I believe even the medical examiner ruled his death a homocide by strangulation? I forget the exact terminology. But that video is exactly why I support cameras for cops. You would be correct. From the HuffPo article: "A medical examiner ruled Garner's death homicide in part resulting from the chokehold, a restraining move banned by the NYPD in 1993." ETA: I find it EXTREMELY disturbing that the only person they DID indict was the man who filmed the incident. What kind of message does that send?
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 27, 2024 10:43:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 17:29:22 GMT
I believe even the medical examiner ruled his death a homocide by strangulation? I forget the exact terminology. But that video is exactly why I support cameras for cops Yes, you're right. Source
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suzastampin
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,587
Jun 28, 2014 14:32:59 GMT
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Post by suzastampin on Dec 4, 2014 17:31:19 GMT
In my opinion, the grand jury is dead wrong! Goes to show that cameras probably won't make much difference. I was appalled when I first saw the video and even more so after the grand jury's decision. What more evidence did they need? I had not heard that the person taking the video was indicted! Ridiculous!
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Dec 4, 2014 17:33:32 GMT
I believe even the medical examiner ruled his death a homocide by strangulation? I forget the exact terminology. But that video is exactly why I support cameras for cops. You would be correct. From the HuffPo article: "A medical examiner ruled Garner's death homicide in part resulting from the chokehold, a restraining move banned by the NYPD in 1993." ETA: I find it EXTREMELY disturbing that the only person they DID indict was the man who filmed the incident. What kind of message does that send? This is such a clear cut case of police misconduct and murder that has the proven video taped & medical evidence supporting it, that it is absolutely shocking and outrageous that he was not indicted. I think with this much public awareness now, they are going to be forced to revisit this case. This case should unite everyone in being outraged and ashamed of that officer and those handling the case that did not indict.
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scorpeao
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,521
Location: NorCal USA
Jun 25, 2014 21:04:54 GMT
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Post by scorpeao on Dec 4, 2014 17:37:01 GMT
i don't understand how the grand jury came to this decision. The video is heartbreaking. He did nothing... Nothing at all, except for having the nerve to be a large African American. This
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 27, 2024 10:43:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 17:38:53 GMT
If you are not familiar with the John Crawford case, I encourage you to read the link in my post upthread. He was in a Wal-Mart, with a pellet gun that is sold in the store, walking through the store, holding the gun pointing at the floor and talking on the phone. Just shopping and talking. Surveillance video shows he was not doing anything threatening AT ALL. Some bastard called 911 and flat out lied (he later admitted his lies) and said Crawford was swinging the gun around and pointing it at people. ALL LIES. The cops arrived and shot him on sight. If they gave him a order to put down the gun, they did not give him a chance to respond. He was shot within a second or so of the cops getting him in sight. He was pointing the gun at the floor and talking on the phone. It's all on video. And Ohio is an open carry state. No indictment. Absolutely appalling. This person wasn't murdered for legally carrying a gun in a store in Ohio. Not killed for open carry. Also not killed for open carry.
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wellway
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,759
Jun 25, 2014 20:50:09 GMT
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Post by wellway on Dec 4, 2014 17:41:49 GMT
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MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on Dec 4, 2014 17:46:08 GMT
i don't understand how the grand jury came to this decision. The video is heartbreaking. He did nothing... Nothing at all, except for having the nerve to be a large African American. In fairness, we don't know what precipitated the event. What I have pieced together from various reports is that apparently Mr. Garner broke up a fight, then apparently was accused of selling loose cigarettes. From the way Mr. Garner was reacting on the video, it is clear that he has been stopped more than once and was frustrated at what he perceived as continued harassment by the NYPD. None of these things would require four or five police officers to jump on him and crush him to death. He was unarmed. They didn't give him an opportunity to comply with their demands. He demanded explanation, they didn't think he needed one. When will the police take basic human reaction into consideration? Seems they are hell bent on instant compliance and instant domination without any kind of reasonable discourse with a nonthreatening, albeit argumentative civilian. Seems expecting an explanation (when there is NO eminent danger) is cause for physical retaliation. This is disgusting.
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Deleted
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Apr 27, 2024 10:43:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 17:46:31 GMT
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Post by hop2 on Dec 4, 2014 17:49:10 GMT
This is an outrage! WTH choke holds have been against policy forever and how is there not enough to indict? How? It's on film?
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Deleted
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Apr 27, 2024 10:43:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 17:59:39 GMT
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Post by jjpswife on Dec 4, 2014 18:21:55 GMT
That piece hurt my stomach. And yes, we really do.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 27, 2024 10:43:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 18:24:26 GMT
I'm really torn on this.
The chokehold has been prohibited in the NYC PD for over 20 yrs. It should not have been used. Period.
The thing is though, Mike Brown wasn't murdered because he shoplifted or was jaywalking. Eric Garner wasn't murdered because he was selling cigarettes.
Mike Brown assaulted a police officer and then (presumably) failed to comply with the directives of the police officer. Based on the video I saw, Eric Garner failed to comply with the police officer, which then caused more police officers to get involved and it got much rougher than it needed to be. His claims of not being able to breathe are heartbreaking...but I can imagine that many people "taken down" like this make similar complaints and claims that aren't really the truth. Had he stopped resisting much sooner, I firmly believe that it would never have reached that physical point that it did, which cost Eric Garner his life.
Sure, maybe the cops, or even this specific cop had harassed Garner in the past. File a complaint. When an officer tells you that you're under arrest and attempts to cuff you, you cannot resist. Even if you're innocent. You just cannot fight. Be innocent. Get an attorney. Fight charges. File complaints. File lawsuits over the injustice. Fighting the arrest and refusal to follow the directives of the police officers just isn't going to end well...regardless of your skin color.
I assure you that if I was pulled over and got mouthy with the officer, and then proceeded to pull away from the cuffs, that things would get ugly for this harmless, white, overweight, middle aged woman.
I think law enforcement does in fact need a huge wake up call on how to treat people...but the community also needs a huge wake up call to do as the police officer instructs you to do.
(I am wondering though...in both cases, we know both Brown and Garner were "unarmed"...although Brown used his fists as a weapon against the officer. We know that with Mike Brown, Wilson had not yet patted him down, so he had no idea whether or not Brown was armed. Does the same hold true for Garner? We now know he was unarmed, but did the officer at the time know he was unarmed?)
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Deleted
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Apr 27, 2024 10:43:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 18:25:17 GMT
While watching The Five on Fox, it was amazing how the discourse about Garner was so different than Ferguson. None of the conservative panelists could believe there were no charges filed. Even Kim G who used to be a prosecutor herself. You know the jury went wrong when no one can stand up and defend it. I have to wonder in this case what the prosecutor presented? And whether he did truly skew it in favor of the cop? In Ferguson, from everything I've seen or read, the prosecutor presented everything he could (including more than he was legally bound to do). I wonder if this prosecutor will open the GJ testimony?
It was definitely way overboard for the "crime" he was supposedly committing...He hadn't just shoplifted, he wasn't walking down the middle of the street, etc. I haven't heard any shred of anything that he was doing wrong beyond selling single cigarettes. I suspect the NYPD will pay big time to settle this one because while not indicted, I do see a HUGE civil settlement coming, especially when even I (who is generally against huge settlements) am all for it!
eta: GaJenny.....in Ferguson, Wilson did have knowledge of the complaint at the store and the description, so was on the lookout for a suspect. I am not hearing anything on Garner that brought about the level of force and sheer # of officers. To me, selling a single cigarette is one of those things that cops shouldn't be wasting their time with... I am not sure how that is "protecting or serving" the population.
I do agree that the best thing you can do when confronted by police is to be quiet, listen and be respectful. But how many times does one person have to do that for something like this? I'd be curious how many other times he has been confronted for something like this.
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Post by lucyg on Dec 4, 2014 18:25:45 GMT
I am not going to express an opinion on this case as I haven't followed it closely, didn't sit on the Grand Jury, haven't seen all the evidence they saw. But I do want to say a couple of things of a more general nature.
One, the determination of death by homicide is not a determination of murder. It means any death caused by another person for any reason, and encompasses murders, accidents, justifiable homicide/self-defense, etc. So a determination by the coroner of death being caused by homicide is not necessarily an indication that a murder occurred and someone should be charged.
Also, someone who actually can't breathe is not able to say "I can't breathe," or anything else. They can't speak at all. Now obviously this man did die, so something was going on there. But in general, when you hear someone say "I can't breathe," it's safe to assume they can breathe.
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MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on Dec 4, 2014 18:36:02 GMT
Until they go quiet.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 27, 2024 10:43:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 18:36:08 GMT
That's easy to say when you are part of the population that the justice system actually works for. If you look at statistics from arrests, to indictments, to convictions, to sentencing... to pretty much every step along the way... the justice system works far less reliably for non-whites (and especially African-Americans) than it does for whites.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 27, 2024 10:43:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 18:38:50 GMT
That's easy to say when you are part of the population that the justice system actually works for. If you look at statistics from arrests, to indictments, to convictions, to sentencing... to pretty much every step along the way... the justice system works far less reliably for non-whites (and especially African-Americans) than it does for whites. That certainly may be the case (and that's not right) but resisting arrest isn't the answer either.
Does anyone think that if you resist being arrested that the cop is going to just change his/her mind and walk away? Of course not.
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Post by BeckyTech on Dec 4, 2014 18:48:18 GMT
They didn't give him an opportunity to comply with their demands. He demanded explanation, they didn't think he needed one. I watched the video from the NY Daily News; he most certainly did have an opportunity to comply. Ever watch an episode of COPS? People are always arguing and demanding explanations, even when they've been caught red-handed. No, the cops do not explain anything when they are making an arrest, they secure the suspect first and foremost. It's a safety issue. When will the police take basic human reaction into consideration? Seems they are hell bent on instant compliance and instant domination without any kind of reasonable discourse with a nonthreatening, albeit argumentative civilian. Seems expecting an explanation (when there is NO eminent danger) is cause for physical retaliation. Again, before you've secured the suspect is no time to be conversing. They run, they pull weapons (after all, without them being secured, the police haven't had a chance to search and don't know if they are armed.) Until the suspect is secured, they have no way of knowing if they pose an immediate danger. All that said, this is exactly the type of case that should have caused an uproar. Many of those discussing Ferguson, including me, wondered why the activists were chosing a robber who attacked a policeman as a rallying cry. THIS would be a case to rally around. Especially since it would appear the officer has a proven record of misusing his position:
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Post by canadianscrappergirl on Dec 4, 2014 18:55:35 GMT
I don't get these cops are they stupid, everyone possesses a cellphone nowadays that can video record, most buildings have cameras. Why are they using aggressive force and using a hold that is banned on a individual by all accounts in the video isn't resisting.
Sadly it seems to be another case of white officers using unnecessary force on an African American male.
Sadly if I was a AA man I would be absolutely scared to be pulled over or stopped on the street by a white cop.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 27, 2024 10:43:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 19:00:23 GMT
They didn't give him an opportunity to comply with their demands. He demanded explanation, they didn't think he needed one. I watched the video from the NY Daily News; he most certainly did have an opportunity to comply. Ever watch an episode of COPS? People are always arguing and demanding explanations, even when they've been caught red-handed. No, the cops do not explain anything when they are making an arrest, they secure the suspect first and foremost. It's a safety issue. When will the police take basic human reaction into consideration? Seems they are hell bent on instant compliance and instant domination without any kind of reasonable discourse with a nonthreatening, albeit argumentative civilian. Seems expecting an explanation (when there is NO eminent danger) is cause for physical retaliation. Again, before you've secured the suspect is no time to be conversing. They run, they pull weapons (after all, without them being secured, the police haven't had a chance to search and don't know if they are armed.) Until the suspect is secured, they have no way of knowing if they pose an immediate danger. All that said, this is exactly the type of case that should have caused an uproar. Many of those discussing Ferguson, including me, wondered why the activists were chosing a robber who attacked a policeman as a rallying cry. THIS would be a case to rally around. Especially since it would appear the officer has a proven record of misusing his position: And to go a step further, how many police officers have to get killed because we demand that the suspects are allowed to dick around without being cuffed or searched? There really isn't a lot of leeway for "benefit of the doubt" when we've got officers out there each and every day/night in danger from criminals who know no boundries.
It seems this NYPD officer Pantaleo has some issues and truly shouldn't be in law enforcement. THIS is the kind of officer that is going to endanger every good cop out there.
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Post by jonda1974 on Dec 4, 2014 19:00:41 GMT
I would imagine that his size played a huge role in this, as well as his asthma. His medical conditions really don't play a factor in the determination, as there was no way for the cops to know he had asthma or other problems. Are we going to expect them to have a full medical history on any criminal suspect before they try to subdue them?
I'm saddened that he died. I've watched the video over and over, and I'm not seeing what others are seeing. I see roughly 11-12 seconds of him resisting arrest and them having him on the ground and the officer removing his arm from around his neck. It wasn't until they rolled him onto his stomach that he started complaining of not being able to breathe. I'm wondering again if his weight didn't play against him.
He was out on bail. He'd been caught doing this many times over. The law is the law. You don't argue with cops, you don't resist arrest, you don't do things that will cause you to be arrested, you don't die. It's as simple as that. If Mr. Garner had not committed the crime, had not resisted arrest, he would be alive today.
Had I been on the Grand Jury, that video would not have been enough for me to justify sending an officer to trial for murder. The intent is not there. People talk about an independent party investigating. That's what the Grand Jury was. 23 people on this Grand Jury, 50% minority. They did not find evidence of wrong doing. No matter what we want to say, the cop did not do murder this man.
Quite honestly, I'm appalled and disgusted that the only time Crazy Al and his compatriots come out to play is when it is white on black crime. If "Black Lives Matter" to them, then what is he and all of these protesters doing to reduce black on black crime which is the predominant case. White on black crime is minuscule in comparison. Yet they remain silent about that. Charles Barkley got it right.
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Post by jonda1974 on Dec 4, 2014 19:03:05 GMT
I don't get these cops are they stupid, everyone possesses a cellphone nowadays that can video record, most buildings have cameras. Why are they using aggressive force and using a hold that is banned on a individual by all accounts in the video isn't resisting. Sadly it seems to be another case of white officers using unnecessary force on an African American male. Sadly if I was a AA man I would be absolutely scared to be pulled over or stopped on the street by a white cop. Why does race matter? Why not just say another case of officers using unnecessary force. Stop making it about race, it's not. Statistics show that I have more to be concerned with driving through a rough neighborhood and being beaten to death with a hammer than a black man being killed by a white cop. This cop may not be the pillar example, but lets not forget they didn't stop Mr Garner because he was black. He's a repeat offender who was out on bail. Sounds like they've given him several "warnings" to stop, hence his complaint about them always messing with him. He made his decisions. Unfortunately his decisions were bad ones and led to his death. Again. Don't do anything to get arrested and you won't have this problem.
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