The Great Carpezio
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Apr 10, 2023 11:46:26 GMT
So, a Facebook friend (retired school para of about ten years) posted this:
“I cannot believe Rochester canceled school today because their internet was out. Well how about getting back to basics and open a book, take out a pencil and paper, talk to each other! Somehow I managed 12 years in school without the internet! Try it, you might like it!!”
I am pretty sure I know what all (or almost) all the teachers are going to say, but I’m wondering what the peas in general think of this?
I do have an opinion, but I’ll post it later.
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pantsonfire
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Post by pantsonfire on Apr 10, 2023 12:24:56 GMT
Wow. Dh's district was hacked a few years ago and he still taught. This was when the school was 100% chromebook use and things were on Google - books, lesson videos, notes, assignments, instructions...
His school was down 2 or 3 weeks and they still managed to teach. It was harder for tech classes as they needed their laptops, pcs, etc.
But yeah, classes went on.
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pantsonfire
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Post by pantsonfire on Apr 10, 2023 12:26:05 GMT
The only thing I can think of that would cause a safety issue is if the phone lines are connected.
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Post by littlemama on Apr 10, 2023 12:27:38 GMT
I think the person who posted that has no idea what school is like now.
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Post by mikklynn on Apr 10, 2023 12:34:56 GMT
My grandson is a freshman and he doesn't have any books. Everything is done with his Chromebook and a program called Schoology.
I honestly don't know what they would do if the internet was down.
I hate that he doesn't have books, because it makes it very difficult for me to help him study.
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Post by Merge on Apr 10, 2023 12:43:32 GMT
For us, when the internet is down, that also means we have no landline phones. Safety issue. We also can’t print which means no copies unless you brought in your own master.
Periodically we do lose internet for a short time and what I would say is, most of our curriculum and resources are online. There are no textbooks in my school. If your district is 1:1 devices (our middle and high schools are) the kids are accustomed to doing most everything online and there are no textbooks.
Yes, we can all punt for a time if needed, but you also can’t underestimate how much kids thrive on routine. No internet means massive changes in routine, and that means unhappy kids and behavior issues in many cases.
Whatever the reason for that district closing, though, I can virtually guarantee it has nothing to do with teacher or student comfort or convenience. It’s likely the same phone issue we have when internet is down. Can’t reach 911 on a landline? Big safety issue in today’s world.
(Oh it may also affect the video buzz-in system at the doors and, for all I know, the key cards we need to get into the school. That’s a problem for sure. We are not allowed to prop doors open because it’s well known that that causes school shootings. 🙄)
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Country Ham
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Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Apr 10, 2023 12:56:31 GMT
I am confused. Why can't can't you call 911 if the internet is down.
The one reason we maintain a landline in our home is for when there is no power or internet, we got good old reliable landlines to use.
The landline in the kitchen stands independent of the cordless phones too since they don't work with no power.
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Post by compeateropeator on Apr 10, 2023 12:57:44 GMT
I would think it would depend on if they had “snow” days or extra days to play with. My niece and nephew’s school is trying to make up 12 days they were out because of of furnace issues…I guarantee they would not cancel and would some how muddle through.
While this may be true, it is the same in many areas and plans are in place to address it. The healthcare/hospital setting for example. It is a big deal when we lose internet and connectivity but do not have the luxury of just shutting down. There are backup plans in place, I would think a school would be the same. 🤷🏻♀️
What if kids were already at school when the outage occurred? Would you close and send them home immediately?
Does it create an unsafe environment? I guess it all depends.
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Post by ferblover on Apr 10, 2023 12:58:48 GMT
For us, when the internet is down, that also means we have no landline phones. Safety issue. We also can’t print which means no copies unless you brought in your own master. Periodically we do lose internet for a short time and what I would say is, most of our curriculum and resources are online. There are no textbooks in my school. If your district is 1:1 devices (our middle and high schools are) the kids are accustomed to doing most everything online and there are no textbooks. Yes, we can all punt for a time if needed, but you also can’t underestimate how much kids thrive on routine. No internet means massive changes in routine, and that means unhappy kids and behavior issues in many cases. Whatever the reason for that district closing, though, I can virtually guarantee it has nothing to do with teacher or student comfort or convenience. It’s likely the same phone issue we have when internet is down. Can’t reach 911 on a landline? Big safety issue in today’s world. (Oh it may also affect the video buzz-in system at the doors and, for all I know, the key cards we need to get into the school. That’s a problem for sure. We are not allowed to prop doors open because it’s well known that that causes school shootings. 🙄) It would impact our key card entry system for sure! I agree with Merge, it is strictly a safety reason. The "just use paper" line made me laugh. Who is paying for that? We barely get our order week to week and in our district it is not unlimited paper that is for sure. |
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Post by mcjunkin on Apr 10, 2023 13:03:06 GMT
I am confused. Why can't can't you call 911 if the internet is down. The one reason we maintain a landline in our home is for when there is no power or internet, we got good old reliable landlines to use. The landline in the kitchen stands independent of the cordless phones too since they don't work with no power. Our "landline" now is completely tied to the internet. DSL goes down and so does the phone. Same thing if we lose power and the modem is out. And they do not offer battery back-ups anymore. We live out in the boonies, and still we do not have the old traditional landline option anymore. I kept ours forever, for the same reason as you, as the internet was inreliable, and we have frequent power outages. A few years ago, it was all converted over. And that is fine as long as we have cell phones. But something odd happens in this area with the cell phones too if the internet or power stays off long. We lose that service too a lot of times. |
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Post by Lurkingpea on Apr 10, 2023 13:10:08 GMT
I think it is safety as well. Our cards don't work to access building when internet is down. 3 years ago we would have just left doors open. Now we can't even leave our hallway doors unlocked or open. No way outside doors can be left open.
Hospitals being able to function is different then school. One day off isn't life threatening. Schools have snow days. Hospitals don't shut down ever. Not even blizzards. Staff still show up. Apples and oranges.
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Post by busy on Apr 10, 2023 13:10:43 GMT
My son's high school doesn't have textbooks - everything is on their Chromebooks and Google Classroom. Without the internet, it would be tough for them to do anything meaningful with a day and since we know teachers aren't babysitters, not sure it would make sense to have them there. I could see it potentially being different at the elementary level, but I think for middle schooler and high schoolers, it would be pretty pointless to try to do it paper-based.
I also think that former para is not thinking about a lot of basic logistics that have been mentioned about what else would and wouldn't work without the internet - security, printers, etc. I hope she enjoyed her uphill walk in the snow to school both ways when she was young.
ETA: As others have mentioned, most schools have snow (etc) days built into their schedules, and this could be treated as such. If it were going to be an extended outage, the teachers and administration would probably need a day or two to make plans. Or perhaps they already have contingency plans in place, but they don't kick in for a short outage (I'd imagine it's a fair lift to pivot to offline school in this day and age and wouldn't be worth it for just one or two days).
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Sarah*H
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Post by Sarah*H on Apr 10, 2023 13:11:16 GMT
I bet that person also posts dumb memes like "back in my day we played outside until the street lights turned on and drank water from the garden hose."
Yes, I'm sure the school district can just magic up textbooks for all of the students in all of the grade levels for all of their classes. Presto curriculum-o.
And at least in our school buildings, the environmental controls are controlled from Texas via the internet. No internet means no heat or a/c. Along with no phones and no way to easily or safely bypass the security features.
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The Great Carpezio
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Apr 10, 2023 13:11:27 GMT
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Post by Lurkingpea on Apr 10, 2023 13:12:01 GMT
I am confused. Why can't can't you call 911 if the internet is down. The one reason we maintain a landline in our home is for when there is no power or internet, we got good old reliable landlines to use. The landline in the kitchen stands independent of the cordless phones too since they don't work with no power. Very expensive for school districts to maintain landlines at all schools. Incredible waste of money. It isn't typically an issue. Cheaper to cancel school. |
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The Great Carpezio
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Apr 10, 2023 13:17:03 GMT
What I posted (before I knew the entire story--see link above):
On the surface, I can understand what it looks like. It’s an interesting topic.
I think all of us still use paper and pencil and most of us use books to some extent, but everything is very interdependent now. I would imagine if they had time to prepare, they would have school, but I’m assuming this was an unplanned and sudden outage.
It’s not that we can’t teach without the Internet or the students can’t learn something without it; the issue is that most of what we do runs through the Internet including our phone system, copiers, and Schoology, our learning management system houses a lot of our activities. (My tests are exclusively on Schoology for example). All of my documents are in Schoology and are created in Google Docs and also are not available to access without the internet.
Some of what I do would be easy to adapt, but some classes would have to be totally scrapped.
As a 25-year teaching veteran and high school teacher, I’d be able to punt, but it could be very difficult for many who don’t have the materials and know-how. I don’t even have a tv anymore, and I’ve gone to purchasing all my videos on Amazon Prime, which needs the internet, so I couldn’t even show a movie.
ETA: I hadn't even thought about security--good point!
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The Great Carpezio
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Apr 10, 2023 13:19:27 GMT
I bet that person also posts dumb memes like "back in my day we played outside until the street lights turned on and drank water from the garden hose." Yes, I'm sure the school district can just magic up textbooks for all of the students in all of the grade levels for all of their classes. Presto curriculum-o. And at least in our school buildings, the environmental controls are controlled from Texas via the internet. No internet means no heat or a/c. Along with no phones and no way to easily or safely bypass the security features. Oh, she is definitely a "back in the days meme" sharer. |
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The Great Carpezio
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Apr 10, 2023 13:20:22 GMT
Wow. Dh's district was hacked a few years ago and he still taught. This was when the school was 100% chromebook use and things were on Google - books, lesson videos, notes, assignments, instructions... His school was down 2 or 3 weeks and they still managed to teach. It was harder for tech classes as they needed their laptops, pcs, etc. But yeah, classes went on. They took the day off to prepare to be down, possibly, for a while. |
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Post by Merge on Apr 10, 2023 13:36:08 GMT
Wow. Dh's district was hacked a few years ago and he still taught. This was when the school was 100% chromebook use and things were on Google - books, lesson videos, notes, assignments, instructions... His school was down 2 or 3 weeks and they still managed to teach. It was harder for tech classes as they needed their laptops, pcs, etc. But yeah, classes went on. They took the day off to prepare to be down, possibly, for a while. That makes sense. I'm sure we all remember when we had to switch very suddenly from in-person to online teaching in 2020. One doesn't just upend everything on a moment's notice. As I recall we had a whole week (!) to completely redesign teaching and learning in that case. A day seems like the least they can do to let teachers prepare to go back to the 1990s in their teaching. |
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Post by compeateropeator on Apr 10, 2023 13:52:06 GMT
I think it is safety as well. Our cards don't work to access building when internet is down. 3 years ago we would have just left doors open. Now we can't even leave our hallway doors unlocked or open. No way outside doors can be left open. Hospitals being able to function is different than school. One day off isn't life threatening. Schools have snow days. Hospitals don't shut down ever. Not even blizzards. Staff still show up. Apples and oranges. I am assuming you are talking about my post. I agree it is “kind of” an apples to oranges type situation…but not exactly. If you are that dependent on anything you must have backup plans in place. Shutting down for one day, if you have days built in, is not an issue. However what happens if the outage continues? You need to somehow pivot and continue on. That is the only intent in my comment, we (general we) seem to no longer try to prepare for unexpected issues. Saftey is the main issue and should be the focal point. If it requires people manning the doors, that may be a work around plan. |
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breetheflea
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Post by breetheflea on Apr 10, 2023 13:53:56 GMT
Recently my elementary school kid went most of the day at school without electricity (only the school, or most of the school building and a one or two houses on the same street power outage.) They had to order pizzas for lunch because the cafeteria couldn't cook anything.
It's not like your friend's local school can just whip out the textbooks and teach from those, they probably don't have any. If there's an emergency they can't even really look up a parent's phone number...
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caangel
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Post by caangel on Apr 10, 2023 14:18:44 GMT
I think it is safety as well. Our cards don't work to access building when internet is down. 3 years ago we would have just left doors open. Now we can't even leave our hallway doors unlocked or open. No way outside doors can be left open. Hospitals being able to function is different than school. One day off isn't life threatening. Schools have snow days. Hospitals don't shut down ever. Not even blizzards. Staff still show up. Apples and oranges. I am assuming you are talking about my post. I agree it is “kind of” an apples to oranges type situation…but not exactly. If you are that dependent on anything you must have backup plans in place. Shutting down for one day, if you have days built in, is not an issue. However what happens if the outage continues? You need to somehow pivot and continue on. That is the only intent in my comment, we (general we) seem to no longer try to prepare for unexpected issues. Saftey is the main issue and should be the focal point. If it requires people manning the doors, that may be a work around plan. There are MANY more schools than hospitals, my district has 32 schools there is 1 hospital that generally caters to the same area. Most schools don't have the money for everyday necessities like unlimited paper and pencils (every teacher I know including myself has bought or asked for those because what is provided is not enough) much less extra staff and money for issues that make a big impact like an Internet outage. The large majority of school funding is notoriously from the government, we don't get multimillion dollar grants from citizens or large corporations who what their name on a building like many hospitals do. Districts don't just shut down without considering the consequences, however I assume this is a little bit easier for those that have build in snow days which are not done in the large majority of CA. And if they have that built in and that is the better option for the student's education then why is that a bad thing? |
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CeeScraps
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Post by CeeScraps on Apr 10, 2023 14:27:37 GMT
Safety and security would be my thought.
Paper/pencil....there is a GREAT chance they wouldn't have enough supplies for all of the kids to use. That would be a mess. The staff would spend the day piece mealing each and every class they had.
Now, I would bet they will put something together so this doesn't happen again. That may be creating kits for each student in each class. That's a lot of work, but it could be done.
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Post by Merge on Apr 10, 2023 14:28:53 GMT
I think it is safety as well. Our cards don't work to access building when internet is down. 3 years ago we would have just left doors open. Now we can't even leave our hallway doors unlocked or open. No way outside doors can be left open. Hospitals being able to function is different than school. One day off isn't life threatening. Schools have snow days. Hospitals don't shut down ever. Not even blizzards. Staff still show up. Apples and oranges. I am assuming you are talking about my post. I agree it is “kind of” an apples to oranges type situation…but not exactly. If you are that dependent on anything you must have backup plans in place. Shutting down for one day, if you have days built in, is not an issue. However what happens if the outage continues? You need to somehow pivot and continue on. That is the only intent in my comment, we (general we) seem to no longer try to prepare for unexpected issues. Saftey is the main issue and should be the focal point. If it requires people manning the doors, that may be a work around plan. Which people? Where will they come from? Most schools run on skeleton staff these days. We don't have extra people sitting around to man all the doors. My school may have parent volunteers who have gone through the district background check and are willing to do this for the day, but many schools do not have many VIPs-approved parents who can just drop everything and spend the day opening doors. It's easy to sit back and say there should be a backup plan, and there is for short term when internet goes out during the day, but it's a situation most schools would avoid if they can. Sometimes the backup plan is, we can't have school under these conditions without adequate time to prepare alternatives. And that's just how it is. |
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Post by compeateropeator on Apr 10, 2023 14:39:04 GMT
I am not saying it is a bad thing or wrong. I also would not be/am not critical of their decision and assume that, obviously, a district does not just close without weighing its options. But I do believe that as, we as a society, we have become more dependent of various services and factors we have not kept up with disaster planning until we are in the middle of a crisis (which closing for one day is NOT) and then have to try and figure it all out.
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Post by hop2 on Apr 10, 2023 14:43:12 GMT
So many things can go wrong without internet. It’s not about the teaching. It’s about what is or is not connected if the connectivity is down.
So many things are internet based and it ‘can’ be a ‘possible’ problem when there’s an outage ( depending on set up etc. ) :
Security devices, hvac devices, timers, clocks, lighting, etc. the list is practically endless.
It’s why fire detection and fire warning devices can not use a *required* web based connection, not even a local router only, ( not an accessory connection ) the stuff still needs to operate locally when connectivity is down. Connectivity is allowed as an accessory function in addition to functioning locally without it.
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Post by FrozenPea on Apr 10, 2023 14:50:05 GMT
I am confused. Why can't can't you call 911 if the internet is down. The one reason we maintain a landline in our home is for when there is no power or internet, we got good old reliable landlines to use. The landline in the kitchen stands independent of the cordless phones too since they don't work with no power. Local phone co that my dh works for offers landlines but they are run over packet networks (a generic type of internet) instead of traditional POTS - copper. Many landlines phones are that way anymore. |
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caangel
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Post by caangel on Apr 10, 2023 15:05:46 GMT
I am not saying it is a bad thing or wrong. I also would not be/am not critical of their decision and assume that, obviously, a district does not just close without weighing its options. But I do believe that as, we as a society, we have become more dependent of various services and factors we have not kept up with disaster planning until we are in the middle of a crisis (which closing for one day is NOT) and then have to try and figure it all out. I agree we need to be prepared, unfortunately in my experience while schools are doing the best they can they are not as prepared as they should be. As many know CA has received an epic amount of rain this winter. All 32 schools in our district have a leak, the majority have multiple leaks. This has been a know issue. However our community voted down a bond for facility improvement a few of years ago (2019?). Our district has done the best they can to address the bigger issues with developer fees and COVID funds but it is not enough. |
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Post by Lurkingpea on Apr 10, 2023 15:12:24 GMT
I think it is safety as well. Our cards don't work to access building when internet is down. 3 years ago we would have just left doors open. Now we can't even leave our hallway doors unlocked or open. No way outside doors can be left open. Hospitals being able to function is different than school. One day off isn't life threatening. Schools have snow days. Hospitals don't shut down ever. Not even blizzards. Staff still show up. Apples and oranges. I am assuming you are talking about my post. I agree it is “kind of” an apples to oranges type situation…but not exactly. If you are that dependent on anything you must have backup plans in place. Shutting down for one day, if you have days built in, is not an issue. However what happens if the outage continues? You need to somehow pivot and continue on. That is the only intent in my comment, we (general we) seem to no longer try to prepare for unexpected issues. Saftey is the main issue and should be the focal point. If it requires people manning the doors, that may be a work around plan. I was just saying for school to shut down one day it isn't anything to get upset over. Not sting you were upset. There may be a work around plan but is it that imperative for one day? Who do you think would man doors? Schools don't have enough staff as it is. I just meant hospitals shut down isn't the same as school shut down. People can live without school one day. Our schools have shut down unexpectedly for deep cleaning after nori outbreaks. |
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The Great Carpezio
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Apr 10, 2023 15:18:55 GMT
I am not saying it is a bad thing or wrong. I also would not be/am not critical of their decision and assume that, obviously, a district does not just close without weighing its options. But I do believe that as, we as a society, we have become more dependent of various services and factors we have not kept up with disaster planning until we are in the middle of a crisis (which closing for one day is NOT) and then have to try and figure it all out. I would actually think this is appropriate disaster planning. Kids can stay home for a day while they assess the situation, get people in place and give the teachers time to completely reframe their curriculum. If you read the link, this could be awhile and there is a potential hack, so shutting down seems like a good idea to me as they aren’t even really sure what’s going on. I think if it was just a one day thing and they didn’t have time to reframe the day (like it happened the night before), I still think it’s safer for the kids to probably stay home since continuous learning will be difficult and even impossible in many cases When Schoology, electricity or internet go down during the day, we punt, and that’s fine in the moment, but if we know continuous learning can’t happen anyway without time to change course, it seems like a weird choice to bring kids into an unstable situation. I’m also using the term continuous learning for a reason because although all (ok most) of us can do some makeshift activity for an hour or day, at the elementary level, we are just child care at that point and at the secondary level, it seems just silly to make kids come in to watch movies, do busy work, etc…. Again, I know some classes, mine for example, can do continuous learning without the internet most of the time. We have today off, but if this was my school, for tomorrow, my 9th grade ELA class would be pretty easy to be off line. My Mythology, in theory, would be ok, but all of my resources for what we were going to do tomorrow are online, and I wouldn’t be able to access them in Google docs and even if I could, I couldn’t print them off. I’m a veteran teacher and give me a half hour, and I’d figure some alternative that would still be relevant, but it wouldn’t be great. There is only so much you can prepare for. |
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