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Post by 950nancy on May 11, 2023 21:46:07 GMT
I told a then fiancé that I would not get married unless we split the work of running a house/kids 50/50. I even went so far as to write out the list (still have it somewhere). I feel like that piece of paper saved me from his theory that men do the outside work and women do the inside work. Once he told me that painting the outside of the house made up for weeks of doing chores inside. I told him that the hours it took him to paint the house equaled what I did at Christmas with planning, gifts, and meals. He really didn't see all of the work it took to run household. We are still together 37 years later. I do more inside and he does more outside (in general but still pretty close). He has his stuff inside that he does as a rule. I told him if it was on the list, it was his job and I wouldn't remind him. Thankfully that worked for us.
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Post by 950nancy on May 11, 2023 21:50:34 GMT
Ok, I am going to put forward an opinion that is no doubt controversial - it will be interesting to see if others agree with me, or if I am somewhat alone in this….. In most species of mammalian animals, the females have a far bigger role in rearing the young, and in maintaining the nest, burrow, or whatever than the males do. In general, males and females have prescribed roles, which are very similar through most species of mammals. In some species, such as orangutans, the males take no part in rearing their young or ensuring their safety. They disappear once they have satisfied their sexual need, leaving the females to do everything. In groups of gorillas, the alpha silverback male has complete rule over his group, even determining when they wake up, eat, go to sleep etc. The males and females all make their own nests, the females keeping their young with them. The silverbacks will usually tolerate the youngsters but not look after them. Female lions do most of the hunting, and most of the child-rearing; males are responsible for the pack’s safety and guarding their territory; they do also look after the cubs while the females are out hunting, but hand them back once the females are back home. So why is it, that humans often think there should be no specific roles for their males and females? That the two sexes should, or could, be pretty much interchangeable when it comes to matters in their homes? Why do humans tend to think males and females should do equal amounts of home-based things? Could it be, that we are just like most other mammals, and nature intended us to have more or less involvement in tasks, depending on our sex? I do think it is “natural” for women to do more around the house, and for men to do more of the providing. Many years ago men and women did have specific roles, and it is more modern thinking that says we should share responsibilities. But is that what nature intends? What do you think? I don't think I'm going to let males off of the hook for their share of anything because a lion, gorilla, or orangutan doesn't do it. It is natural because we as women have allowed it to happen. If I provide as well as my husband, he can do the housework too.
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Post by ntsf on May 11, 2023 22:02:50 GMT
I think I am very lucky to be brought up by parents who both could do anything and did.. my dad took care of three kids in diapers for a week.. while mom went on vacation in the mid 1950's. my parents were single kids, so they both knew how to cook, clean, get repairs done, lawn care, etc. they lived traditional role lives from the outside, but the reality was different. my dad could cook better than my mom. my mom did housework. but did not like to do it.
my husband's parents also lived traditional roles, but my dh could cook, clean, arrange things etc.. and was functional adult before I married him when he was 33. so we brought up our kids.. to all know something about cooking, cleaning, organizing, and keeping a home. so now, they step into whatever "role" they need to.. I don't think nature has much to do with it. how independent you are, how competent you are depends on yourself. do you want to be?
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Post by dewryce on May 11, 2023 23:24:56 GMT
dewryce said: As far as the less leisure time that has been true is almost every relationship I have ever been familiar with. Ours is an exception (for many reasons) and I find people have the hardest time disgusting that. Is this a woman to woman thing or a man thing or just an everybody thing? It should have said “digesting that.” When I think about it, when men are a part of the conversation they mostly don’t say anything, to my face anyway. The women can be pretty judgmental. I get a lot of “what do you DO with your spare time?” Which earns them a “whatever I want.” That’s only the truth when I’m feeling well enough physically and mentally, but I don’t have the time or energy anymore, nor do I care to to converse with those people. “I wouldn’t know what to do with all that spare time,” is another one. A non-sincere “must be nice” is another. And when they find out he normally does the lion’s share at home, including cooking and cleaning, depending on how I’m doing? Yeah, it can be an unpleasant conversation. eta: I know some of the nastiness is because my husband takes care of me in ways theirs don’t, always has even before all of my health issues came out to play. And part of it is not understanding, being ignorant, or refusing to see how my health impacts me. But DH lives it, and is normally the one pointing out that I shouldn’t be doing something or that I’m pushing it and will pay for it. Because he sees my mind and body shut down for a week after I give in and do as much as his mom would like me to when we visit, etc. and that has a really negative impact on our home life.
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Post by roundtwo on May 12, 2023 0:49:46 GMT
All my friends now in the empty nest boat are trying so hard to maintain their busy-ness. It's almost hilarious to watch them trying to defend busy. So I get that women may be like that. The women can be pretty judgmental. I get a lot of “what do you DO with your spare time?” Which earns them a “whatever I want.” That’s only the truth when I’m feeling well enough physically and mentally, but I don’t have the time or energy anymore, nor do I care to to converse with those people. “I wouldn’t know what to do with all that spare time,” is another one. A non-sincere “must be nice” is another. And when they find out he normally does the lion’s share at home, including cooking and cleaning, depending on how I’m doing? Yeah, it can be an unpleasant conversation. I really really do not understand the busy-ness badge of honour thing. I see how some of these women interpret being busy and I just don't understand it - shopping for groceries five days a week is just a weird way to spend your time when you claim you have so much to do. I have never played that game and when they claim that they can't imagine what I do with all of my free time, I simply smile and tell them that we all have 24 hours. You spend yours at Costco, I spend mine in other ways. I have always been the one to do more around the house but I have almost always had fewer hours at my outside job. I also had a dh who was gone at least six months of every year when the kids were at home so I really didn't have a lot of choice in the matter. I am retired from the workforce now, and dh is still working. He does the dishes every night and deals with the garbage/recycling. He knows where the cleaning supplies are and the vacuum so while I still do more, he will do things without me having to ask which I think is how a grown-up should behave...
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Post by chaosisapony on May 12, 2023 1:17:59 GMT
I agree with you that most of the comments you mentioned are bullshit - except the one about blaming women for having “higher standards”. I will leave aside the word ‘blame’, but I do think many women have unnecessarily high standards; many seem to do housework that doesn’t actually need to be done. I see it a lot in social media. Women talking of sweeping or vacuuming the floor daily - the kitchen probably needs that, but I don’t believe other floors do. So what if there’s some dog hair, crumbs of paper or whatever on the living room floor for a few days? So what if you can see footsteps on the polished floor? Some wash dish cloths, dish towels, bath towels etc after just one use. Why would a bath towel need to be washed after using it to dry a clean body one time? I see so many things like this, where women self-impose housework on themselves that they don’t really need to do. The reasons for it are probably myriad, but I can’t help wondeing if insecurity is often behind it. Women thinking they have to be, or should be, Superwoman. That they should have a perfect magazine-ready house at all times. I think this need by some women to do more than is actually necessary is bullshit, and that men (and women) who don’t mind some crumbs on the floor for a few days or using a bath towel more than once, have it right. If these would-be superwomen do their self-imposed extra housework willingly, without comparing it to what their parters do, then fair enough. But if they then say their partners should do more, or even if they just point out that they themselves spend more time doing housework, I think they are being unfair. I think there is a lot to this. I'm a pretty shitty housekeeper because I really value my leisure time. Whereas most of my friends have magazine worthy homes ready for a guest at a moment's notice. Not only are the houses perfectly kept but holiday decorations are often going up or being removed indoors and out, baked goods made, home renovations and updates planned and carried out, and meals planned and cooked. A lot of this is a choice. Meals can be simplified, you don't have to decorate for every holiday, you can go a day without vacuuming, etc. I think men are better with setting boundaries on this stuff. They don't care if the Christmas tree goes up Thanksgiving weekend or if the guest bathroom is "updated" to be on trend.
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Post by Merge on May 12, 2023 2:11:21 GMT
Humans have larger, more advanced brains than other mammals do. We operate through planning, negotiation, and compromise - something most animals do not. We are not driven primarily by instinct because we have the ability to reason. So I don’t think it makes sense to say, well, the gorillas have defined gender roles, so why wouldn’t we? It’s because we’re not gorillas. We’re better than that.
A lot of the expectations I see placed on women through social media, to keep the perfectly clean and decorated house and make the perfect meals, have taken on an insidious tone to me. I see an undercurrent of that far-right push to return women to their proper, subservient place, and that bothers me. I see an attempt by certain people to influence young women into thinking that their brains and dreams are less valuable than their ability to keep the clothes perfectly folded and turn out a perfect Hollandaise.
If keeping the perfect house brings you joy, I applaud that and support you. If housework makes you want to flee the country, I applaud your decision to hire out as much as you can and split the rest with your partner. What I don’t support is shaming anyone for the way their house is kept (though a truly filthy place is cause for concern, no one here is talking about that).
To me, leisure time is what makes life worth living. I have never had an ounce of “grind” culture in me. A day with no free time is literally cause for panic as far as I’m concerned. But everyone is different. If you’re one of those who can’t sit still, rock on with that.
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Post by KiwiJo on May 12, 2023 3:21:43 GMT
Oh, I don’t it’s a matter of being better, just different.
I do think it is nature’s intention for females (including human women) to be the more ‘domesticated’ of the two (main) sexes - however I also agree with you that we can more easily change or adapt things than other mammals because of our brains’ power to think and reason and our ability to more comprehensively communicate.
But in most early societies, the sexes had separate roles and over the centuries the roles did change somewhat, but it is only recently that it’s been acceptable, let along encouraged, for roles to be shared.
Why was it that until the last century or so, nearly all women stayed home and attended to domestic matters (whether by doing it themselves, or supervising others to do it)?
In pondering questions like these, I am not for a minute suggesting that is how we should live today, merely that it is how nature set things up. Nature did also give us far more brain power than other animals so we have more choice, but why did most human societies develop with different roles according to sex, and it’s only recently that is changing?
I find these sorts of questions fascinating.
For the record, DH and I are now both retired and we do share roles pretty equally. Example - I do most of the cooking, he cooks once a week. He does most of the outside work, I do some gardening (weeding etc). He usually vacuums the carpets, I usually mop the floors, and sometimes, we swap. Much the same with everything that needs to be done……
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Post by grammadee on May 12, 2023 3:35:50 GMT
I didn't train my dh very well, but my ddil's have trained our sons to pitch in with cooking and child care. Other chores they split up as best suits each family and everybody says what they are prepared to do themselves or to pay to have done by outsiders and what they need from each other.
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Post by busy on May 12, 2023 3:40:24 GMT
If these would-be superwomen do their self-imposed extra housework willingly, without comparing it to what their parters do, then fair enough. But if they then say their partners should do more, or even if they just point out that they themselves spend more time doing housework, I think they are being unfair. These leads me to a comment I want to make. I feel many women go above and beyond to make themselves look valuable. Or to look busy. Or seem like the family unit couldn't function without them. And it stems a lot from social media and "influencers". There are all these stay at home women who get paid or have sponsored contracts because of how busy they are keeping house. And then you have average women who then look at these influencers and go oh shit I need to be like them. It has created a very unhealthy reality. I don't want to say the blame is on women but women do need to take a hard look at how they spend their time and why they do so much and who are they trying to please. This issue FAR predates influencers. The internet is not to blame for everything.
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Post by crazy4scraps on May 12, 2023 4:38:27 GMT
I will add though, that I hate having to ask or say something needs to be done, even if he is more than willing to do it. I don't want to have to point out the stack of boxes in the middle of the floor. If I can see the trash overflowing or that the couch cover needs to be straightened or the sink washed out, why can't anyone else? I am also relieved I am not adding children into that mix. I have stated once we get some of our projects done, I want to hire someone to come in every other week to do floors and deep cleaning. I think he was surprised. But we're doing it. I agree with this. 9 times out of 10, I'd just rather do the chore myself than have to ask. It feels motherly to ask. Like I'm assigning a chore. And that's not the role you want to play with your husband. I agree with you, I would much rather just get it done than to have to ask for help with something only to have to WAIT for whatever I asked for help with to actually get done. IMO if I can see that something needs to be done, everyone else looking at it should be able to recognize that fact too instead of just walking past whatever it is and leaving it for someone else to take care of. (Dirty dishes in the sink when the empty dishwasher is literally *right there,* I’m looking at you. Also the kitchen trash which is constantly full, looking at you too. Or the basket of his laundry that I hauled down the stairs, washed, dried and folded, and that’s been sitting in plain view for a week. Is it really too much to ask for the owner of said clean clothes to do me a solid and carry the full basket back upstairs and put it away?) My kid is just as guilty of all this, so I WE really need to work on that, too.
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Post by ntsf on May 12, 2023 4:54:31 GMT
one thing I point out when training Girl Scout leaders taking kids camping, is that many kids do not do as many chores as in the past.. one reason is it takes a lot more time to have a child do the chore than it does for an adult. so we have to train them on washing dishes, how to sweep the floor, etc.
it is not really true that most women did not work "outside the home" til the last century. since most people were in agriculture... the whole family worked at the family business. if you had a bakery or a store, the whole family helped out how they could. with the rise of the industrial revolution, in the 1820's and 1830's.. when men and women traveled from the rural to the urban to work in concentrated factories-- that is when you start to see the "cult of womanhood" rise.. new woman's magazines started, housekeeping books were being published, cooking books were started to be published.. and there was a gradual start is more people doing chores on their own and not having help of some sort.
so when the farm daughters went off the farm in new england to earn money, you start to see articles about the dangers of this.. and one reason is that these young women's labor was not being used on the farm.. but away from home. so the history of women's work is more complex than housework, cooking and childcare. they always were out there doing the family work.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 12, 2023 9:26:27 GMT
Merge what is interesting is if you read the study to the bottom, it says that 85% of Democrats say that men and women should have equal focus on work and home and 28% of republicans say the woman's focus should be on the home. That is very telling to me. And I do believe that. I'm not on TikTok and I don't really follow influencers. But I do follow an account on Twitter that aims to show women the posts on various social media of men being misogynistic. Those views are out there. And I assume that many of these men are finding women to fulfill their fantasy of a traditional marriage.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 12, 2023 9:40:12 GMT
roundtwo I agree with you on how we choose to spend our time. I think this cult of busyness is less a woman thing and more an American thing. It's just that more and more people are finding it hard to make ends meet financially and this is where we get of this hustle culture thing. In addition to household stuff and childcare. I think there is also a push toward women to engage in "self care". I only put this in quotes because I think sometimes the need is deeper than just a bubble bath with a glass of wine. And I know many women who even while they are having this type of self care are still multitasking the children. I, myself, always carved out time for scrapbooking or crocheting. However it was always done during Naptime or when I would allow tv/movie time. I hardly ever really got away from my kids. This is going to sound bad but back in the day when they were really little, it almost felt like a break to actually grocery shop without them. Even that was a rarity for me.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 12, 2023 9:47:26 GMT
I recently read the Feminine Mystique and much of what you said ntsf was historically true. Women in general did work up until the industrial period. It was as Merge said an insidious push into gender roles post WW2. I think of my grandmother's and my great aunts. None of them worked and they were all so very poor. I think of what kind of life they might have had if they had worked and helped support their families. But everything was in on the game including magazines/advertisements/even college curriculum. There was a direct message being sent to girls during this time period for sure. So all of this predated the internet.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 12, 2023 10:06:05 GMT
dewryce yes, I can see where it would be a jealousy issue if their husbands don't step up and help them with things that need to be done, especially when they feel that they are struggling. I know there's been a time or two when I have been right in the thick of it and the first thing I'd want to go is my job because my loyalty has always been with my kids. I don't think that gives me the license to disparage other women though. But jealousy is a very real thing especially when we are pretty burned out. I also admit to irritation at women who never carved out time for themselves. I have some friends right now in this category too. Some have even infantilized their children to the point where they are actively trying to keep adult children home because they haven't spent any time developing themselves as people outside of the mother role. I have some other friends whose children have left home and they still can't adjust. I will even admit that despite a thriving career and prolific amounts of hobbies, I spent years intensive parenting because my children had issues that prevented them from developing and separating normally. Even I right now am struggling despite all the things I have cultivated for my own self with the idea that I finally have peace in my home and freedom from this pervasive anxiety and intensive mothering. Unfortunately mine also comes with a side of guilt too because if Esther had not died, that aspect of my life would most likely have continued. But that's a different issue. I'm just saying that even I am trying to figure out what I can add to focus on for my own self development and purpose. And I did do my best over the years to make myself a priority even in the midst of chaos.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 12, 2023 10:09:29 GMT
I really want to thank everyone for participating in this conversation. I do think it is a bit more nuanced and all of you have helped me see that. I can finally see how some of these other issues are at play in my life and that of those around me.
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SweetieBsMom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,618
Jun 25, 2014 19:55:12 GMT
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Post by SweetieBsMom on May 12, 2023 12:22:49 GMT
I haven't read all the comments yet. DH and I did not have a division of labor, I did everything other than mow the grass. We both worked, I had a career and he had a job, I was the breadwinner. One of the BIGGEST fights we ever had was due to this exact topic. We were at his parent's house for a holiday and everyone was there and I was in the other room and came back to the table to hear him complaining that I asked him to clean the bathroom. Of course his mother and sisters jump in "What? How could you ask him to do that? We don't ask our husbands to do that!!!". Yeah, and NONE OF YOU work full time! Not only was I working full time, I was working 50-60 hours a week trying to establish my career. I was so MAD. Of course, these are the same people that wouldn't come see him when he was dying of cancer. Needless to say, I no longer interact with them, I don't have to. I will call my MIL on Sunday to wish her a Happy Mother's Day. I sent them cards. But I haven't seen any of them since the funeral and I'm a-ok with that.
I've seen a lot of TikToks from divorce lawyers lately and they're all saying the same thing: Women are tired and they're not putting up with it anymore. One example an attorney gave was of a recent client: this wife worked, came home and did all the chores, took care of the kids, did all the errands, and the husband just worked and thought that was all he had to do. The women said "I'm done, he's like having another child at home" and she filed. When you read the comments there are a lot of people who say they're in the same boat but just as many people that say they have a partnership.
I am raising DS to know that it's not someone's job to wait on him hand and foot. He cleans his bathroom, he does his laundry, he empties the dishwasher, he cooks. OMG. I remember when I wanted to teach DS to use the toaster oven to make his dinner and to do his laundry, DH said "what are you going to do now he's doing that?". PISSED. He fought me on teaching him (he has Autism but is high functioning) and I ignored him. And you know what? Thank God I did because when I was in the hospital for 2 weeks my kid could take care of himself and I didn't have to uproot him from his home to go stay with someone which would have added a ton of stress for him.
DH and I got married young (for this area anyway) at 25/26. We didn't have any conversation before hand about this. We saw both our mothers take care of the house and kids. BUT both our mothers didn't work until we were in HS. When I got married, I knew I was going to work. My mother told me to never give up my career because you never know what may happen and she was right. I'm now a widow but I'm financially stable.
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Post by Merge on May 12, 2023 12:47:50 GMT
Something else to consider is that women of color and some poor white women always worked outside the home during the years that it was “not done” for middle and upper class white women to do so. History’s perspective on what is “traditional” is limited.
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Post by mikklynn on May 12, 2023 13:38:12 GMT
SweetieBsMom I have been reading on men who are blindsided by their wives filing for divorce. They say they didn't know their wife was unhappy. It's exactly what you said - women are tired. Before my DH had cancer and passed away, this is what we fought about. I had a demanding career and he was a partner in his firm, so we both worked hard. But, EVERYTHING in the the house fell to me. Now that I am widowed, I really have reflected on how out of balance our life was. I was often angry that I had to ask him to do things. Why couldn't he see the dust or the dirty kitchen? My local news just ran a story about what women want for Mother's day. The overwhelming answer was a clean house. That is just wrong.
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Post by 950nancy on May 12, 2023 13:49:30 GMT
I didn't train my dh very well, but my ddil's have trained our sons to pitch in with cooking and child care. Other chores they split up as best suits each family and everybody says what they are prepared to do themselves or to pay to have done by outsiders and what they need from each other. I definitely raised my sons to know how to clean, do the laundry and lots of the outdoor stuff as well. I think it is just good practice to teach people how to survive/thrive on their own. My sons have been doing their own laundry since second grade and had indoor and outdoor chores. I still they'd be happy to be married to someone who offered to do it all, but so would I!
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on May 12, 2023 13:59:52 GMT
To me, leisure time is what makes life worth living. I have never had an ounce of “grind” culture in me. A day with no free time is literally cause for panic as far as I’m concerned. But everyone is different. If you’re one of those who can’t sit still, rock on with that. I so agree with all of this. This issue FAR predates influencers. Most of us were indoctrinated with the idea of the "woman's role" at the knee of our mothers and grandmothers.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 12, 2023 14:05:26 GMT
I've seen a lot of TikToks from divorce lawyers lately and they're all saying the same thing: Women are tired and they're not putting up with it anymore. One example an attorney gave was of a recent client: this wife worked, came home and did all the chores, took care of the kids, did all the errands, and the husband just worked and thought that was all he had to do. The women said "I'm done, he's like having another child at home" and she filed. When you read the comments there are a lot of people who say they're in the same boat but just as many people that say they have a partnership. I was raising my kids and taking care of my house, in addition to working, and well, living with a drunk. Being on my own was far better. I know I'm not alone.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 12, 2023 14:06:37 GMT
My local news just ran a story about what women want for Mother's day. The overwhelming answer was a clean house. That is just wrong. This is just sad. But I have no problem believing it is true.
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Post by nightnurse on May 12, 2023 15:55:57 GMT
When my husband and I were both working, his mom lamented the fact that he had to work full time and do dishes sometimes. I was like I work full time and do most of the dishes. She said “well you’re the woman” as if women are endowed with magic dish washing powers in our ovaries. When we both worked, I did most of the household chores. Now that just I work, he does most but still doesn’t clean the bathrooms, and won’t manage all the clutter that accumulates. I still do dishes and cook because no one should have to do it all
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Post by crazy4scraps on May 12, 2023 16:08:29 GMT
roundtwo I agree with you on how we choose to spend our time. I think this cult of busyness is less a woman thing and more an American thing. It's just that more and more people are finding it hard to make ends meet financially and this is where we get of this hustle culture thing. In addition to household stuff and childcare. I think there is also a push toward women to engage in "self care". I only put this in quotes because I think sometimes the need is deeper than just a bubble bath with a glass of wine. And I know many women who even while they are having this type of self care are still multitasking the children. I, myself, always carved out time for scrapbooking or crocheting. However it was always done during Naptime or when I would allow tv/movie time. I hardly ever really got away from my kids. This is going to sound bad but back in the day when they were really little, it almost felt like a break to actually grocery shop without them. Even that was a rarity for me. I just wanted to touch on the hustle culture thing for a minute. I’ve always been a highly creative person and I tend to be very good at the things I like to do. As a result, all my adult life it seems like everything I ever want to just do as a hobby for personal enjoyment ends up getting twisted into, “You’re so *good* at that, someone should be paying you to do it!” Granted, my hobbies tend to get somewhat expensive, but his hobbies do too and I have never once told him “Maybe you should get someone to pay you to take them fishing/hunting/snowmobiling/ATVing/motorcycling.” I literally can not think of a single creative thing I’ve taken on for fun in the last 30 years that hasn’t been somehow co-opted into some type of paid gig at one point or another, and that’s really pretty sad.
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breetheflea
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,943
Location: PNW
Jul 20, 2014 21:57:23 GMT
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Post by breetheflea on May 12, 2023 16:08:40 GMT
My local news just ran a story about what women want for Mother's day. The overwhelming answer was a clean house. That is just wrong. Wrong in what way? I always ask for a clean house, with an asterisk on there that it's not cleaned by me. Sometimes, they try but I have very low standards, what I consider a clean house is not asking that much... I would really like is to be home alone to do whatever I want in peace and quiet... with DH working from home, 4 kids, and Covid, I think that's happened once in the last three years and it was glorious.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 12, 2023 16:13:48 GMT
roundtwo I agree with you on how we choose to spend our time. I think this cult of busyness is less a woman thing and more an American thing. It's just that more and more people are finding it hard to make ends meet financially and this is where we get of this hustle culture thing. In addition to household stuff and childcare. I think there is also a push toward women to engage in "self care". I only put this in quotes because I think sometimes the need is deeper than just a bubble bath with a glass of wine. And I know many women who even while they are having this type of self care are still multitasking the children. I, myself, always carved out time for scrapbooking or crocheting. However it was always done during Naptime or when I would allow tv/movie time. I hardly ever really got away from my kids. This is going to sound bad but back in the day when they were really little, it almost felt like a break to actually grocery shop without them. Even that was a rarity for me. I just wanted to touch on the hustle culture thing for a minute. I’ve always been a highly creative person and I tend to be very good at the things I like to do. As a result, all my adult life it seems like everything I ever want to just do as a hobby for personal enjoyment ends up getting twisted into, “You’re so *good* at that, someone should be paying you to do it!” Granted, my hobbies tend to get somewhat expensive, but his hobbies do too and I have never once told him “Maybe you should get someone to pay you to take them fishing/hunting/snowmobiling/ATVing/motorcycling.” I literally can not think of a single creative thing I’ve taken on for fun in the last 30 years that hasn’t been somehow co-opted into some type of paid gig at one point or another, and that’s really pretty sad. People say that to me too. And I'm always like first, there's no way I'm giving up my beloved hobby time to do commissioned work on what someone else wants. And second, you can't afford my makes. I posted some new yarn I got on my Facebook wall about a year ago. I said I was going to make a shawl with it. And someone asked me flat out if I would consider selling it. And I was like the yarn alone was almost $100 then maybe 15 hours of my time? People were shocked. But I was like this is why I don't monetize my hobbies.
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Post by nightnurse on May 12, 2023 17:22:26 GMT
Ok, I am going to put forward an opinion that is no doubt controversial - it will be interesting to see if others agree with me, or if I am somewhat alone in this….. In most species of mammalian animals, the females have a far bigger role in rearing the young, and in maintaining the nest, burrow, or whatever than the males do. In general, males and females have prescribed roles, which are very similar through most species of mammals. In some species, such as orangutans, the males take no part in rearing their young or ensuring their safety. They disappear once they have satisfied their sexual need, leaving the females to do everything. In groups of gorillas, the alpha silverback male has complete rule over his group, even determining when they wake up, eat, go to sleep etc. The males and females all make their own nests, the females keeping their young with them. The silverbacks will usually tolerate the youngsters but not look after them. Female lions do most of the hunting, and most of the child-rearing; males are responsible for the pack’s safety and guarding their territory; they do also look after the cubs while the females are out hunting, but hand them back once the females are back home. So why is it, that humans often think there should be no specific roles for their males and females? That the two sexes should, or could, be pretty much interchangeable when it comes to matters in their homes? Why do humans tend to think males and females should do equal amounts of home-based things? Could it be, that we are just like most other mammals, and nature intended us to have more or less involvement in tasks, depending on our sex? I do think it is “natural” for women to do more around the house, and for men to do more of the providing. Many years ago men and women did have specific roles, and it is more modern thinking that says we should share responsibilities. But is that what nature intends? What do you think? It’s straight up misogyny of society to say it’s women’s natural role to be the caretakers and take care of the home while simultaneously demanding they ALSO work outside the home. The only way separate roles work is if they are truly separate but women are working just like men and then coming home to keep right on working while somehow being all delicate and fragile. And while we are mammals, we are talking about what nature intended for us on our cell phones and computers, wearing clothes, driving cars, doing many unnatural things. I’ve only ever seen the “natural” argument used to make women feel guilty for wanting something more than doing all the housework and child rearing
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Post by FuzzyMutt on May 12, 2023 18:08:41 GMT
I have had an evolving household over the years.
Our current household is myself, my boyfriend, my son, and his girlfriend (not thrilled about it, but she's nice, and they are good together, and her family situation is very ugly... soooooo.....)
We have a two level house, upstairs is 3 bedrooms, two baths, and the kitchen/dining/living. Downstairs is one bed, one bath, and a family room.
We all work. Our income levels are super different. My guy makes way more money than I do. And, while he can do daily household chores, he chooses to pay someone else to do it (he did before I moved in.)
I was the working mom raising between 1-3 kids at any one time, 3/4 of it as a single mom, and the 1/4 that wasn't my ex was constantly deployed, so he didn't really count most of the time anyway. I never asked much in the house of the kids except to keep their clutter in their rooms, clean up their rooms at least quarterly, and clean up any messes/spills you may make in the "shared part" of the house. In other words, pour yourself some cereal or cook mac and cheese, wipe down the counters if you spill, at least rinse your dishes or put in dishwasher etc. I never expected the kids to clean the bathrooms or fridge, or floors or whatever. They did from time to time if I asked, but never a regular "chore." I also did much of the laundry for my son (he does his now- but sometimes I'll fold it if it's in the dryer) but my daughter always did her own after about elementary school.
So, with all this background, same general idea even though we are all working adults. Son and girlfriend are expected to clean up after themselves, but there are no "chores." Boyfriend does no chores, but will clean up if there is a spill etc, or if we are having company, or if he just happens to empty the dishwasher or take out trash.. whatever, sometimes I ask, usually he'll do it if he notices. He pays for our regular housekeeper, and a deep clean twice a year. I am the one that will wipe out the fridge when I see it needs it, clean marks off the walls, fill bathroom hand soaps, wash and fold towels etc. We split grocery cost, but I tend to do the shopping and 99.9% of cooking. We eat out alot and he picks up 99% of the checks. We split doggie chores pretty evenly, except I am the bather, brusher. We live in condos so there are no outdoor chores. We all take care of our own car stuff, bills and finances.
For purposes of the study, boyfriend has way more leisure time than me, but his work isn't nearly as demanding as mine (time wise.) He easily works about 20-25 hours a week. Me, I'm more like 40-55 hours a week. I don't think I spend a full hour a week doing housework. I know he doesn't!
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