|
Post by FuzzyMutt on May 12, 2023 18:36:56 GMT
When my husband and I were both working, his mom lamented the fact that he had to work full time and do dishes sometimes. I was like I work full time and do most of the dishes. She said “well you’re the woman” as if women are endowed with magic dish washing powers in our ovaries. When we both worked, I did most of the household chores. Now that just I work, he does most but still doesn’t clean the bathrooms, and won’t manage all the clutter that accumulates. I still do dishes and cook because no one should have to do it all My boyfriends mom, is a "stay at home mom" in her 70's. Their house is impeccable, I don't know how she does it. I asked my boyfriend if it was always like that, even when they were kids, and he said yes! I was so surprised and asked how!? Apparently, back then, she delegated certain tasks and there was no deviation from what needed to be done. In fact, in her house (even today) MEN do the dishes. She doesn't wash a dish and neither of her sons, nor their father would DREAM of dirtying her kitchen by leaving a dish in or near the sink. And, after she cooks dinner, (every night for 50 years) either her sons when they were kids, or her husband, their father, would do the dishes before anyone sat down anywhere other than the table. The best part!? She told her boys that there has never been a man, in the history of men, whose penis was too big for them to be able to get in the way of doing dishes! Hahahaha she's such a prim and proper lady, but she's a feminist at heart. In our house, if something is getting out of hand, like the dishwasher hasn't been emptied in 3 days and there is no silverware, or the trash is too full, or the couch blankets are messy, all it takes is a somber question. Do you need to go to the doctor and have your penis checked? Is it in the way of emptying the dishwasher?
|
|
|
Post by KiwiJo on May 12, 2023 19:23:50 GMT
Ok, I am going to put forward an opinion that is no doubt controversial - it will be interesting to see if others agree with me, or if I am somewhat alone in this….. In most species of mammalian animals, the females have a far bigger role in rearing the young, and in maintaining the nest, burrow, or whatever than the males do. In general, males and females have prescribed roles, which are very similar through most species of mammals. In some species, such as orangutans, the males take no part in rearing their young or ensuring their safety. They disappear once they have satisfied their sexual need, leaving the females to do everything. In groups of gorillas, the alpha silverback male has complete rule over his group, even determining when they wake up, eat, go to sleep etc. The males and females all make their own nests, the females keeping their young with them. The silverbacks will usually tolerate the youngsters but not look after them. Female lions do most of the hunting, and most of the child-rearing; males are responsible for the pack’s safety and guarding their territory; they do also look after the cubs while the females are out hunting, but hand them back once the females are back home. So why is it, that humans often think there should be no specific roles for their males and females? That the two sexes should, or could, be pretty much interchangeable when it comes to matters in their homes? Why do humans tend to think males and females should do equal amounts of home-based things? Could it be, that we are just like most other mammals, and nature intended us to have more or less involvement in tasks, depending on our sex? I do think it is “natural” for women to do more around the house, and for men to do more of the providing. Many years ago men and women did have specific roles, and it is more modern thinking that says we should share responsibilities. But is that what nature intends? What do you think? It’s straight up misogyny of society to say it’s women’s natural role to be the caretakers and take care of the home while simultaneously demanding they ALSO work outside the home. The only way separate roles work is if they are truly separate but women are working just like men and then coming home to keep right on working while somehow being all delicate and fragile. And while we are mammals, we are talking about what nature intended for us on our cell phones and computers, wearing clothes, driving cars, doing many unnatural things. I’ve only ever seen the “natural” argument used to make women feel guilty for wanting something more than doing all the housework and child rearing Well, now you have seen it in a 100% different context. I completely agree that if a woman is working in any capacity whatsoever, whether outside the home or as a work-from-home employee (or volunteer for that matter, not just paid work) then household duties need to be shared accordingly. As you will see when you read further in the thread, DH and I share the work of having a home equally these days because we are both retired. When I worked, we also shared the duties, as did our children while they were growing up. When I retired & he was still at work I did most, but not all, of the home duties. All 3 situations worked for us and all parties were happy about it. No, my suggestion was not aimed at individual women or families, but at society. Our modern “western” societies have altered the roles of women - in past times they were more clearly separate and more what I believe is how nature intended. In saying this, I am absolutely not saying that is what we should be aiming for; after all, as you say, we have developed untold numbers of things that are not “natural”. But I also fully stand by my words, that I believe it is more of what nature intended that women, in general, are more inclined towards domesticity, while men are more inclined toward leaving the home to provide for the home. That’s not to say I think we should revert to that model, but I do think it’s what is behind many women doing more than their share of home duties and many men allowing that to happen. In the past, I think most societies worked according to nature’s intentions, and in the last century or so that has been changing. Right now, in the midst of the change, many people are caught in the middle hence why so many women still perform more of the home duties because they think they “should”. I certainly don’t think they should, but the conflict between what nature intends and what society wants, can make many people struggle with the conflicts that can occur.
|
|
|
Post by nightnurse on May 12, 2023 19:39:40 GMT
Kiwijo-I didn’t take your post to be misogynistic but more thoughtful and raising thre topic. I do however believe that there is misogyny behind the idea of women’s work and what nature intended. As I said, nature didn’t intend for us to fly but we built planes and I’ve never seen anyone saying we shouldn’t or that being able to fly creates conflict because we are going against nature. We are fine going against nature when it provides a refrigerator and grocery store and car to get us from a to b instead of walking but when it comes to women not wanting to bear the brunt of domestic labor, we are creating conflict by going against nature
|
|
pantsonfire
Pearl Clutcher
Take a step back, evaluate what is important, and enjoy your life with those who you love.
Posts: 4,762
Jun 19, 2022 16:48:04 GMT
|
Post by pantsonfire on May 12, 2023 19:40:11 GMT
Sorry haven't had time to read through all the responses.
But thinking more on this, could it also be perfectionism.
I know a multitude of women who do xyz because their partner wouldn't do it the same. So they do it. Or they don't ask for help because it won't be done the same way.
So women just keep doing things instead of allowing another person to help or take over while allowing that person to do it their way.
Just a random thought I had last night before bed.
|
|
|
Post by jeremysgirl on May 12, 2023 19:40:42 GMT
the conflict between what nature intends and what society wants, can make many people struggle with the conflicts that can occur. You are still holding fast to the idea that "nature" intends I clean the toilet. Nature intends argument can be used for my biological sentence to carry, birth, and breastfeed a baby. But insofar as anything else goes, I don't believe that anything is innate. I believe it is all a matter of socialization. Furthermore I would go so far as to say that nature fully intended me to achieve because nature blessed me with a pretty intelligent brain. I can train an 8 year old to wash dishes, the same cannot be said for my job.
|
|
The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
Posts: 2,936
Jun 25, 2014 21:50:33 GMT
|
Post by The Great Carpezio on May 12, 2023 20:12:03 GMT
I think maybe one could make a case that "nature intends" women carry, deliver and provide food for infants, but beyond that, I would need to see proof that gender roles are anything but a social construct.
|
|
|
Post by KiwiJo on May 12, 2023 20:38:50 GMT
the conflict between what nature intends and what society wants, can make many people struggle with the conflicts that can occur. You are still holding fast to the idea that "nature" intends I clean the toilet. Nature intends argument can be used for my biological sentence to carry, birth, and breastfeed a baby. But insofar as anything else goes, I don't believe that anything is innate. I believe it is all a matter of socialization. Furthermore I would go so far as to say that nature fully intended me to achieve because nature blessed me with a pretty intelligent brain. I can train an 8 year old to wash dishes, the same cannot be said for my job. I too believe our daily lives are a matter or socialisation. I think that society, and therefore its individual members, is still very much struggling as society changes and that is inevitable. The reason I think that nature intends females to have a domestic-based role and males to have a provision-based role is two-fold. I began by talking of one of these - that in pretty well all species of mammals (which we are too, of course), that is the case. In fact in some, such as lions, the females do a lot of both! I have talked of the 2nd reason in later posts. Humans maintained those roles for centuries and it’s only relatively recently that societies have started challenging them. If it wasn’t what nature intended, why did societies develop with those roles for centuries? In saying that I think nature intends separate roles for females and males, I think there is complete equality between those roles. Both are equally vital. When you say “You are still holding fast to the idea that "nature" intends I clean the toilet” it sounds to me that you are downplaying the domestic role, that you think it is not important. That domestic work is not as important as “real” work. We hear that implication so often, and I think that is more mysoginistic - that society is absolutely buying into the idea that traditional “men’s work” is more important and somehow better than traditional “women’s work”. I think that is bullshit. Both are vital. Of course, individuals within society should be free to take on the roles they individually want to, but I think a society that thinks work outside the home is more important than domestic work causes problems for the people within that society.
|
|
|
Post by sabrinae on May 13, 2023 0:14:58 GMT
It’s straight up misogyny of society to say it’s women’s natural role to be the caretakers and take care of the home while simultaneously demanding they ALSO work outside the home. The only way separate roles work is if they are truly separate but women are working just like men and then coming home to keep right on working while somehow being all delicate and fragile. And while we are mammals, we are talking about what nature intended for us on our cell phones and computers, wearing clothes, driving cars, doing many unnatural things. I’ve only ever seen the “natural” argument used to make women feel guilty for wanting something more than doing all the housework and child rearing Well, now you have seen it in a 100% different context. I completely agree that if a woman is working in any capacity whatsoever, whether outside the home or as a work-from-home employee (or volunteer for that matter, not just paid work) then household duties need to be shared accordingly. As you will see when you read further in the thread, DH and I share the work of having a home equally these days because we are both retired. When I worked, we also shared the duties, as did our children while they were growing up. When I retired & he was still at work I did most, but not all, of the home duties. All 3 situations worked for us and all parties were happy about it. No, my suggestion was not aimed at individual women or families, but at society. Our modern “western” societies have altered the roles of women - in past times they were more clearly separate and more what I believe is how nature intended. In saying this, I am absolutely not saying that is what we should be aiming for; after all, as you say, we have developed untold numbers of things that are not “natural”. But I also fully stand by my words, that I believe it is more of what nature intended that women, in general, are more inclined towards domesticity, while men are more inclined toward leaving the home to provide for the home. That’s not to say I think we should revert to that model, but I do think it’s what is behind many women doing more than their share of home duties and many men allowing that to happen. In the past, I think most societies worked according to nature’s intentions, and in the last century or so that has been changing. Right now, in the midst of the change, many people are caught in the middle hence why so many women still perform more of the home duties because they think they “should”. I certainly don’t think they should, but the conflict between what nature intends and what society wants, can make many people struggle with the conflicts that can occur. But you’re ignoring that your view of early society just isn’t factually true for the vast majority o f people in those societies. Women have always worked outside the home— it was just at jobs that weren’t valued by our patriarchal societies. Women have always been the maids, wet nurses, nanny, cleaner, chef and typically in earlier societies were the farmers. It was only the wealthy women who didn’t work outside the home on some manner. It was a post wwII constrict that forced women into the home and even then the poorer segments of society continued to work outside the home.
|
|
|
Post by KiwiJo on May 13, 2023 0:48:08 GMT
Ah ok, yes I can see I have mis-led you by saying “work out side the home in any capacity whatsoever”. I should have said “any non-domestic work….” I get to that further down, where I talk about women being more inclined towards domesticity, because I was thinking that most jobs that were traditionally done by women were domestic-based. The people look after and care for things, rather than providing safety, security against marauders, hunting etc. You are quite right that often-times those (domestic-based) jobs were outside the woman’s home. I believe they are equally vital to society as those roles traditionally undertaken by men. Sorry to have mis-led you.
|
|
|
Post by auntiepeas on May 13, 2023 4:52:32 GMT
I too believe our daily lives are a matter or socialisation. I think that society, and therefore its individual members, is still very much struggling as society changes and that is inevitable. The reason I think that nature intends females to have a domestic-based role and males to have a provision-based role is two-fold. I began by talking of one of these - that in pretty well all species of mammals (which we are too, of course), that is the case. In fact in some, such as lions, the females do a lot of both! I have talked of the 2nd reason in later posts. Humans maintained those roles for centuries and it’s only relatively recently that societies have started challenging them. If it wasn’t what nature intended, why did societies develop with those roles for centuries?In saying that I think nature intends separate roles for females and males, I think there is complete equality between those roles. Both are equally vital. When you say “You are still holding fast to the idea that "nature" intends I clean the toilet” it sounds to me that you are downplaying the domestic role, that you think it is not important. That domestic work is not as important as “real” work. We hear that implication so often, and I think that is more mysoginistic - that society is absolutely buying into the idea that traditional “men’s work” is more important and somehow better than traditional “women’s work”. I think that is bullshit. Both are vital. Of course, individuals within society should be free to take on the roles they individually want to, but I think a society that thinks work outside the home is more important than domestic work causes problems for the people within that society. My understanding is that societies have simply used gender (like race or ethnicity) as an organizing principle. Cultural meanings have been assigned to being male or female. These are what have shaped expectations about attributes and behaviours appropriate to women or men.
|
|
|
Post by KiwiJo on May 13, 2023 6:30:12 GMT
Well, it’s Saturday night and I am on my way out to a function and a big day planned tomorrow, so thought I should pop in and thank everyone for a great debate. I really appreciate how people have joined in and allowed everyone to exchange thoughts and opinions in such a respectful and considered manner.
|
|
|
Post by mikklynn on May 13, 2023 23:41:32 GMT
My local news just ran a story about what women want for Mother's day. The overwhelming answer was a clean house. That is just wrong. Wrong in what way? I always ask for a clean house, with an asterisk on there that it's not cleaned by me. Sometimes, they try but I have very low standards, what I consider a clean house is not asking that much... I would really like is to be home alone to do whatever I want in peace and quiet... with DH working from home, 4 kids, and Covid, I think that's happened once in the last three years and it was glorious. It's wrong because the house should be cleaned by everyone who lives there, not just the woman. I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a free day for Mother's day. I asked for that some years!
|
|