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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 16, 2023 11:25:08 GMT
This morning on Facebook, there was a rerun of an Ask Vanessa (NYTimes) column from 2020. I can't link it because I clicked through Facebook and now cannot find the article on the NYTimes website. But basically it was a woman writing in saying that her husband was a minimalist and they disagreed over how much clothing was acceptable. Now the woman didn't give any more details. We don't know if he was trying to get her to get rid of clothing because of this disagreement. We don't know if he was fueled by spending or size of a closet. Basically we have no other details than they have a difference of opinion.
What got me was the comments about it being none of his business, throw him out, not the clothes, etc. There were comments related to environmental concerns, closet size concerns, spending concerns. There were also a lot of comments justifying the fact that women simply need more clothing than men do because whereas men can own one suit for multiple occasions, women's wardrobes need more clothing for the same events he can wear the one suit. And then frankly, there were comments about fashion just being fun and she's justified in having whatever she wants.
I see all facets of the clothing issue. That's not what it troubling me about this. It is the posts wherein people said he had no business commenting/sharing his opinion and that she had no obligation to discuss this with him at all and maybe she should consider getting rid of him.
Now, I know that my husband is an autonomous individual who is not only capable but entitled to make some decisions for himself. But something like this would definitely be discussed together. We discuss everything. I value his opinion and he values mine. Clothing is definitely something where we now have differences of opinion. I am concerned with buying ethically made and sustainable materials. Most of the time, if I can't get that, I turn to the second hand market. Since my 100 day dress challenge and the learning that produced, my buying habits have changed. I have expressed all of this to him and yet, his buying habits have not changed in response. Although, he now is more likely to shop the thrift stores with me whereas before he wouldn't even consider second hand clothing. And one thing I totally appreciate about him is that he holds onto his clothing forever. Even when I'm begging him to get rid of something. (I'm looking at you ugly green, torn, dirty sweatshirt that he works on cars wearing and every once in a while will try to sneak out of the house wearing)
But I was just thinking about this because there are a myriad of issues that we differ on, doesn't mean we don't discuss them, our preferences, and our reasoning. We just accept that the other person has good reasons for why they choose to do what they do and offer our contrast opinions and the other gives them consideration. Plus, with something like this, space and money might be issues. My husband and I would definitely be concerned with the other's opinion due to space and money.
I was wondering is it this climate of polarization that we are so dismissive of the thoughts and opinions of people that even our own husbands don't get the respect of being heard and understood? Have we gotten to the boiling point where people are just so set in their ways, they aren't giving any consideration at all to the thoughts of others around them, including some of the nearest and dearest?
I mean there are so many times when I am trying to work something out in my head that I even come here and ask online friends (strangers?) for their opinions on an issue so I can consider all the things I might not be thinking of. So it seems so foreign to me to not give any consideration to the man I married.
Anyway, I'm trying to come up with one example where I simply dismissed his thoughts and would say fuck you to him, not even caring. Or I'm trying to imagine any kind of scenario where I would dump him for disagreeing with something I do. Maybe these commenters have a history of being controlled by a spouse? Or have never had a spouse at all? We don't disagree much and that is probably because we are generally pretty easy going but I really do believe a lot of times, it's because we listen to each other and try to compromise or at least respect where the other is coming from.
Anyone married or divorced want to weigh in?
ETA: I did not intentionally mean to not include widows. You're welcome here.
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SweetieBsMom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,601 
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Post by SweetieBsMom on Aug 16, 2023 11:50:22 GMT
I'm widowed. I see this all the time in TikTok comments: leave him, kick him to the curb, get out now, etc. And a lot of times those comments are from the smallest issues. There's never the advice to talk to him, work it out, try to see it from his perspective, see a therapist, etc. It's always cut and run.
A disagreement about clothing is not an earth shattering disagreement. Unfortunately there's not more context. If the husband is a minimalist, is clothing the only issue? People are allowed to have differences of opinions. DH and I certainly didn't agree on everything. Honestly I don't know one couple who agrees on everything. Like you, I can't think of an instance where I dismissed DH without trying to understand where he was coming from. We disagreed on plenty and talked about it.
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Post by monklady123 on Aug 16, 2023 12:01:25 GMT
Personally I don't think my husband should get much opinion about my clothes if I like them. lol. I mean, unless I was out spending too much money...but that disagreement wouldn't be about the actual clothes, it would be about the budget.
For my actual clothes nope, if I like it I get to keep it and wear it.
However, "kicking him to the curb" over something so inconsequential seems a bit drastic. lol.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 16, 2023 12:05:18 GMT
I'm sorry, I will update the OP to reflect that I value the opinion of widows too. I see this all the time in TikTok comments: leave him, kick him to the curb, get out now, etc. And a lot of times those comments are from the smallest issues. There's never the advice to talk to him, work it out, try to see it from his perspective, see a therapist, etc. It's always cut and run. I don't see much of these types of things but I'm also not on Tiktok. I just was blown away that someone would say such a thing over clothing. Or the not much better, he has no business giving you his opinion. Because I feel like, when I said I do, I was agreeing to hear his opinion on everything for the rest of my life. LOL! Unfortunately there's not more context. I suspect, and this is just a hunch, the letter writer specifically didn't say why this was an issue in the first place because she didn't want to cop to the fact that he's irritated about the space or money this wardrobe is taking up. I feel like something was specifically omitted. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 16, 2023 12:10:30 GMT
Personally I don't think my husband should get much opinion about my clothes if I like them. For my actual clothes nope, if I like it I get to keep it and wear it. Unless I was dressing provocatively, I don't think my husband cares at all what I actually put on my body. But what if it was a values issues? Would you dismiss his opinion? Because I don't think a lot of people consider that the clothing we choose has an impact on the people making them and on the environment. If it doesn't for you, maybe that's impacting your dismissal of his opinion. For me, the purchase of clothing is an issue of values and I think if my husband were simply dismissive of that, I wouldn't like it very well. And I'll give you a for instance. I could go buy a cheap, non-sustainable, brand new sweater for $25-30. But I would choose to buy a second hand, cashmere sweater for $100. My husband could very well have an opinion on the amount of money I'm spending that impacts him, but for me, it's a values issue that we've discussed and he respects. |
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Post by epeanymous on Aug 16, 2023 12:14:40 GMT
I mean, I would need a lot more details. It would be a weird relationship if you couldn't share your opinion with your spouse. I don't claim to be super fashionable but I basically know what is current, and, yesterday, my husband had something important and reached into his closet for a particular shirt/tie combination, and I told him that it looked dated and a different tie would look better. I think it would be different if I told him he couldn't wear the tie, or that he was too fat for the shirt, or that if he was a real man he'd follow trends, or if I threw out the tie.
So if the husband is like, "I am a minimalist and don't think you need all those clothes," that's one thing--he has an opinion, and shared it in a non-demeaning way. If closet space or budget is at a premium, that's part of sharing space and financial responsibility--if the husband filled the whole refrigerator with beer, of course the wife could say, hey, too much beer, I need space in the fridge for food. But if it is, there's room, and there's money, and it's just, he thinks he can tell her what is important to her and make her get rid of her clothes, that sounds unacceptably controlling.
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Post by monklady123 on Aug 16, 2023 12:16:38 GMT
Personally I don't think my husband should get much opinion about my clothes if I like them. For my actual clothes nope, if I like it I get to keep it and wear it. Unless I was dressing provocatively, I don't think my husband cares at all what I actually put on my body. But what if it was a values issues? Would you dismiss his opinion? Because I don't think a lot of people consider that the clothing we choose has an impact on the people making them and on the environment. If it doesn't for you, maybe that's impacting your dismissal of his opinion. For me, the purchase of clothing is an issue of values and I think if my husband were simply dismissive of that, I wouldn't like it very well. And I'll give you a for instance. I could go buy a cheap, non-sustainable, brand new sweater for $25-30. But I would choose to buy a second hand, cashmere sweater for $100. My husband could very well have an opinion on the amount of money I'm spending that impacts him, but for me, it's a values issue that we've discussed and he respects. Oh, if those were my thoughts about clothing my dh would totally respect that. Because basically he doesn't care about what I'm wearing, except to comment from time to time if he particularly likes something. I'm pretty basic clothes-wise so I'm not wearing anything outrageous. lol. -- But, honestly I'm not sure if he'd even notice my $100 second-hand cashmere sweater over the $25 Target one. If I commented on it I know he would say "great deal!" or something like that, but I don't think he'd notice all on his own.  |
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Post by Lurkingpea on Aug 16, 2023 12:23:19 GMT
Personally I don't think my husband should get much opinion about my clothes if I like them. For my actual clothes nope, if I like it I get to keep it and wear it. Unless I was dressing provocatively, I don't think my husband cares at all what I actually put on my body. But what if it was a values issues? Would you dismiss his opinion? Because I don't think a lot of people consider that the clothing we choose has an impact on the people making them and on the environment. If it doesn't for you, maybe that's impacting your dismissal of his opinion. For me, the purchase of clothing is an issue of values and I think if my husband were simply dismissive of that, I wouldn't like it very well. And I'll give you a for instance. I could go buy a cheap, non-sustainable, brand new sweater for $25-30. But I would choose to buy a second hand, cashmere sweater for $100. My husband could very well have an opinion on the amount of money I'm spending that impacts him, but for me, it's a values issue that we've discussed and he respects. Your issue boils down to environmental issues for me. It may not for you, but that is what I see. Based on that if I bought clothes the way you do and did my normal environmental things I do and my husband was out buying over packaged items on purpose, bagging each item at the grocery store individually and never recycling or composting we would have a serious discussion. I wouldn't leave him over that, but I would expect him to appreciate my concerns and compromise and make changes. The only issue I can see kicking him to to the curb over would be if he were someone who didn't respect human rights or even a woman's bodily autonomy. But then again we wouldn't have gotten past first or second date if that were true. My husband personally does think abortion is wrong unless the woman's health is in danger. But he fully supports every woman's right to choose. He has always said since he doesn't agree with abortion he won't get one but everyone gets to make their own decision. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 16, 2023 12:41:28 GMT
So if the husband is like, "I am a minimalist and don't think you need all those clothes," that's one thing--he has an opinion, and shared it in a non-demeaning way. Maybe this is the piece we are missing? Maybe he didn't share in a non-demeaning way and that is what is bugging her? I suspect though, as I said above, that there are pieces of the story the writer omitted. But if it is, there's room, and there's money, and it's just, he thinks he can tell her what is important to her and make her get rid of her clothes, that sounds unacceptably controlling. But too, when you are married, every dollar you spend on clothing, is a dollar you can't spend on something else. I know that Jeremy supports my values and the prices that come with them, but also, I have to be conscious of other priorities too that this money is taking away from. We are lucky in that we have leeway in our budget for fun things, but if his priority was a bigger, fancier house or truck and mine is new dresses, then there could be conflict. |
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Post by Merge on Aug 16, 2023 12:42:55 GMT
I think there’s a strong backlash right now to the resurgence if the trad marriage model and the idea that women should just do as their husbands tell them. That kind of thinking is behind pushed all over social media to the point where there’s a political movement to repeal the 19th amendment because a woman needs no vote other than her husband’s.
And of course there’s a whole equivalent alpha male movement that says that women are too stupid to make their own decisions and should be controlled by men in all things.
Many women find that kind of rhetoric alarming, to say the least.
So I think what we sometimes see is women pushing all the back the other way, to the point of refusing to listen to or compromise with their spouse, and a lot of cheering for that kind of thinking on social media. That’s not really how a healthy marriage works, though, so hopefully these folks are also listening to the voices that tell them that marriage counseling and therapy are for everyone who wants them, no stigmas attached.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 16, 2023 12:56:05 GMT
Your issue boils down to environmental issues for me. It may not for you, but that is what I see. Based on that if I bought clothes the way you do and did my normal environmental things I do and my husband was out buying over packaged items on purpose, bagging each item at the grocery store individually and never recycling or composting we would have a serious discussion. I wouldn't leave him over that, but I would expect him to appreciate my concerns and compromise and make changes. That's what I meant is that I might be persistent if he was just completely dismissive of my values issue. The only issue I can see kicking him to to the curb over would be if he were someone who didn't respect human rights or even a woman's bodily autonomy. But then again we wouldn't have gotten past first or second date if that were true. My husband personally does think abortion is wrong unless the woman's health is in danger. But he fully supports every woman's right to choose. He has always said since he doesn't agree with abortion he won't get one but everyone gets to make their own decision. Spanking children is another hill I would die on too. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 16, 2023 12:57:52 GMT
I think there’s a strong backlash right now to the resurgence if the trad marriage model and the idea that women should just do as their husbands tell them. That kind of thinking is behind pushed all over social media to the point where there’s a political movement to repeal the 19th amendment because a woman needs no vote other than her husband’s. And of course there’s a whole equivalent alpha male movement that says that women are too stupid to make their own decisions and should be controlled by men in all things. Many women find that kind of rhetoric alarming, to say the least. So I think what we sometimes see is women pushing all the back the other way, to the point of refusing to listen to or compromise with their spouse, and a lot of cheering for that kind of thinking on social media. That’s not really how a healthy marriage works, though, so hopefully these folks are also listening to the voices that tell them that marriage counseling and therapy are for everyone who wants them, no stigmas attached. This makes sense. I am not on TikTok but I do go on Twitter occasionally and there seems to be a very vocal cesspool of men who want to control women. And this seems louder (I'm sure it's because of social media) than I ever remember it being when I was a young woman. So I could see opposite voices being amplified too. |
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Post by Lurkingpea on Aug 16, 2023 12:59:01 GMT
Your issue boils down to environmental issues for me. It may not for you, but that is what I see. Based on that if I bought clothes the way you do and did my normal environmental things I do and my husband was out buying over packaged items on purpose, bagging each item at the grocery store individually and never recycling or composting we would have a serious discussion. I wouldn't leave him over that, but I would expect him to appreciate my concerns and compromise and make changes. That's what I meant is that I might be persistent if he was just completely dismissive of my values issue. The only issue I can see kicking him to to the curb over would be if he were someone who didn't respect human rights or even a woman's bodily autonomy. But then again we wouldn't have gotten past first or second date if that were true. My husband personally does think abortion is wrong unless the woman's health is in danger. But he fully supports every woman's right to choose. He has always said since he doesn't agree with abortion he won't get one but everyone gets to make their own decision. Spanking children is another hill I would die on too. Me too. |
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Post by peasapie on Aug 16, 2023 13:02:36 GMT
I was wondering is it this climate of polarization that we are so dismissive of the thoughts and opinions of people that even our own husbands don't get the respect of being heard and understood? Have we gotten to the boiling point where people are just so set in their ways, they aren't giving any consideration at all to the thoughts of others around them, including some of the nearest and dearest? You make a good point. I see this all the time in my immediate world and in the news — people like a “considered opinion,” as long as it’s their own. I would certainly hope that the comments in that article (my way or the highway) represent what they would spout off to a stranger and not what they would offer to their spouse. But even saying that to a stranger means there is no thought given to anyone else’s opinion. I do wonder if this is the same in other countries, or if the political climate has fertilized this attitude. |
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Post by Linda on Aug 16, 2023 13:22:08 GMT
I'm in a fairly traditional marriage where DH is the breadwinner and I'm a homemaker. So yes, on things that involve spending money, I do feel dh has a right to express an opinion...it's his hard-earned money after all. But as it turns out, I'm saver, he's the spender in our relationship. And while there are no minimalists here, I certainly lean that way more than he does. So from that perspective - it's unlikely he would express the kind of opinion in the article.
But he has a right to express his opinions and I have a right to express mine. And as part of a loving relationship, it's understood that those opinions are just that - opinions - and it's okay to disagree. And for the most part that works.
Politics/current events is mostly off the table for discussion because we rarely agree and over the course of our marriage our opinions have diverged more rather than less and personlly, I find it works better to stay out of those discussions because we're not going to change each others minds. Unfortunately he feels that means I'm shutting down discussions/not valuing his opinion when I feel it means I'm trying to avoid raised voices and angry words. So I can definitely see that there's usually two sides to a situation like the one described and we're only hearing one side.
I'm the declutterer/organiser in our household. DH is a holder on to all the things. And many times on decluttering discussions (here or more commonly on FB) people (often women) will ask about what to when a spouse isn't on board with downsizing/decluttering/getting rid of stuff. And so often the response is to just do it, he'll never notice. I disagree with that - I don't even get rid of my kids stuff without their permission and input, I'm certainly not going to do it to my DH's - and if the tables were turned, I wouldn't appreciate him doing it to mine. Does that mean I get frustrated with the amount of stuff here? yes. Does it mean I inwardly cringe everytime he comes home with more stuff? sure. Does he know I would prefer less things in the house? I'm sure he does. And 10+ years into my decluttering journey, he is slowly starting to clean some things out. And while I've indubitably thought many times that he has WAY too many clothes and they take up WAY too much space...we've come to an agreement about respecting the spaces that are mine (and not encroaching).
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Post by 950nancy on Aug 16, 2023 13:38:42 GMT
My husband and I both have "strong personalities" when it comes to work and doing the correct thing. At home, we have had to learn to compromise more. We both work and bring in money (he makes more) and we both have hobbies that cost money. I think the fact that we both see each other as individuals with different needs is all we really need to be able to live together for over 35 years. We both like a neat and tidy home (read that as not always dusted, but tidy). As for the topic of clothes, we have more than enough closet space and prior to living in this house, we had and extra 6 foot long closet to take advantage of. On a rare occasion, I will shut off his idea and he will tell me that I did it. He's good at letting me know when I shut him down. He's smart because he tells me the dog said it, and it doesn't become a big disagreement. I really think having a good sense of humor in life goes a long way in just surviving in a relationship.
I think that social media can exaggerate people's personalities in some ways. While I kind of go nuts over every creature that walks, hops, or lumbers onto our property, my husband kind of whatevers it off. If he posted my behavior on social media, I could see that it could be exaggerated. People will do anything for clicks. They try to monetize so much.
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bethany102399
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,521
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Post by bethany102399 on Aug 16, 2023 13:52:42 GMT
I am reminded of a book I read about a woman whose parents were hoarders. It was a memoir, and she lived in her car for a time to avoid living with them. She keeps her car immaculate to the point of vacuuming it weekly and talked about marrying her husband who is a comic book collector. He has slowly gotten her to be ok with an agreed upon number of boxes for his comics. Always carefully packaged in plastic boxes.
The point being, we all bring different things to the table. I grew up in a house that was immaculate because my mom A. Didn't work outside the home and B. was meticulous about keeping a clean house. I work outside the home and am NOT meticulous about keeping a clean house. Drives DD, insane. If this woman's DH had an issue with her clothes it may have been coming from a legit place, but of course as I'm sure the couple I mentioned above does, lets acknowledge that and have a conversation about it.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 16, 2023 13:59:25 GMT
I do wonder if this is the same in other countries, or if the political climate has fertilized this attitude. It might also be that weird backlash Merge was talking about too. If men are doubling down on being controlling then women might be extra sensitive to anything that looks like control. But my mind immediately went to the polarized political climate and the idea that no one wants to work cooperatively or see another's point of view. |
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Post by maryland on Aug 16, 2023 14:10:42 GMT
I'm widowed. I see this all the time in TikTok comments: leave him, kick him to the curb, get out now, etc. And a lot of times those comments are from the smallest issues. There's never the advice to talk to him, work it out, try to see it from his perspective, see a therapist, etc. It's always cut and run. A disagreement about clothing is not an earth shattering disagreement. Unfortunately there's not more context. If the husband is a minimalist, is clothing the only issue? People are allowed to have differences of opinions. DH and I certainly didn't agree on everything. Honestly I don't know one couple who agrees on everything. Like you, I can't think of an instance where I dismissed DH without trying to understand where he was coming from. We disagreed on plenty and talked about it. I agree and it bothers me too. If a woman did something little, and men told her husband to kick her out, their would be outrage. I don't get the double standard. And yes, communicate to the person what is bothering you and why. Sharing both sides in a positve way would help with communication. Just my opinion!
In our house, I am the minimalist and it's hard that the rest of the family has so much stuff that they dont use but won't get rid of. But I am a sahm so have the time to do it with my stuff. My husband works many hours a week and the last thing he want to do on day off is decultter. So I try to remember that and when he does do some decluttering I always thank him and let him know I appreciate it, because I do. My 23 yr. old just did a huge decluttering yesterday and i happily made two trips to goodwill!
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Post by maryland on Aug 16, 2023 14:14:39 GMT
I mean, I would need a lot more details. It would be a weird relationship if you couldn't share your opinion with your spouse. I don't claim to be super fashionable but I basically know what is current, and, yesterday, my husband had something important and reached into his closet for a particular shirt/tie combination, and I told him that it looked dated and a different tie would look better. I think it would be different if I told him he couldn't wear the tie, or that he was too fat for the shirt, or that if he was a real man he'd follow trends, or if I threw out the tie. So if the husband is like, "I am a minimalist and don't think you need all those clothes," that's one thing--he has an opinion, and shared it in a non-demeaning way. If closet space or budget is at a premium, that's part of sharing space and financial responsibility--if the husband filled the whole refrigerator with beer, of course the wife could say, hey, too much beer, I need space in the fridge for food. But if it is, there's room, and there's money, and it's just, he thinks he can tell her what is important to her and make her get rid of her clothes, that sounds unacceptably controlling. Your last sentence is part of my issue. We built a 6000 sq. ft house with more room than we would ever need. I was miserable there, and after two years, we moved back into our former house that is half the size. I feel like I can't complain about all my husband's stuff because he moved back to our 2000 sq. ft. house for me. So I try not to be controlling and tell him he has more stuff than we have room for because we did have room in our other house. I hope that makes sense! But I do try not to be so controlling. |
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Post by ntsf on Aug 16, 2023 14:52:14 GMT
I am in the camp of discussions of things that bother you. and also, we are independent agents in our marriage, but out of love and reason we consult each other, may modify our behavior to make the other happy, but are also open to make individual decisions to make ourselves happy.
fortunately, we are mostly on the same page about stuff, and hobbies. we have a small house and limited space so we must compromise and coordinate.
reaching 40 yrs of marriage .. and all our kids still love each other.
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smartypants71
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,701
Location: Houston, TX
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Post by smartypants71 on Aug 16, 2023 15:02:30 GMT
I can't think of a single subject where either of us would hesitate to share an opinion to the other. The only time our opinions can turn into a demand, is when it starts negatively affecting the other, and then it would turn into a more meaningful discussion. Fortunately for me, my DH doesn't form any strong opinions that contradict mine  |
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Post by Lexica on Aug 16, 2023 15:10:48 GMT
My neighbor/friend in California was horrible with the way she treated her husband and marriage in my opinion. She would buy very expensive clothing and hide it at my house, sneaking a piece into her closet a little at a time. She was also the kind of person that would buy something expensive at Nordstrom, wear it to an event, then return it afterward, never intending to keep it. I was super uncomfortable allowing her to have a spare closet at my home, but it was her marriage and her decisions. I kept my opinions to myself for the most part, but she knew how I felt about her deceiving her husband. I wasn’t sad when they moved away.
For me personally, if I can’t communicate and discuss things with my husband, why did I marry him? I won’t be controlled, but open communication is critical for me.
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Post by sleepingbooty on Aug 16, 2023 15:15:23 GMT
Like Merge said, there is a general fatigue on every minorised front. People can be taken aback by what seems to be a flippant cut-it-loose attitude but I understand where it's coming from. It's just not always applicable to the exact context. And as you put it, jeremysgirl , it seemed to be a rather vague Ask Vanessa column so it left a wide range of interpretation - both rational and emotional. I don't doubt that many people (mostly women, I'm guessing) who said something along the lines of "he accepts how you dress and how much clothes you have or he can beat it" were mostly projecting that aspect of the historically traditional female condition (oppression + control over everything including attire, no space for self-expression or respect of how one simply dresses their own body). The same fatigue is heard from other minorities who are feeling both empowered enough to speak up and tired of living in oppression. For the US, the exhausted atheists' remarks come to mind. It's to be expected after thousands of years of being forced to keep quiet and keep up appearances. It has gone too far and now, at least for some time, you'll hear what may sound extremely cynical ("there is no sky daddy") where it seems unasked for. But it's just regaining public space and the weariness speaking. I doubt anyone would leave their spouse/SO over a basic matter like the quantity of clothing except if it became a routine subject for arguments and led to a more significant divide in fundamental life values. |
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peabay
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,598
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Aug 16, 2023 16:08:41 GMT
My dh and I are a really good yin/yang. I'm neurotic and worry-wart, but am more rational and calm. He's a "worry about nothing" kind of guy, who loses his temper quickly. We defer to each other's strengths well.
I'm sure we've both done things that people on Tik Tok would say "omg, get out of that marriage immediately!" People don't see the deeper context of a relationship in these video snippets.
And an off limits topic for us? What I weigh and what I eat. That is super triggering for me (I had a mother obsessed with weight - her own and everyone else's) and I will not tolerate someone saying anything about what I eat.
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Post by mymindseyedpea on Aug 16, 2023 16:39:36 GMT
This morning on Facebook, there was a rerun of an Ask Vanessa (NYTimes) column from 2020. I can't link it because I clicked through Facebook and now cannot find the article on the NYTimes website. But basically it was a woman writing in saying that her husband was a minimalist and they disagreed over how much clothing was acceptable. Now the woman didn't give any more details. We don't know if he was trying to get her to get rid of clothing because of this disagreement. We don't know if he was fueled by spending or size of a closet. Basically we have no other details than they have a difference of opinion. What got me was the comments about it being none of his business, throw him out, not the clothes, etc. There were comments related to environmental concerns, closet size concerns, spending concerns. There were also a lot of comments justifying the fact that women simply need more clothing than men do because whereas men can own one suit for multiple occasions, women's wardrobes need more clothing for the same events he can wear the one suit. And then frankly, there were comments about fashion just being fun and she's justified in having whatever she wants. I see all facets of the clothing issue. That's not what it troubling me about this. It is the posts wherein people said he had no business commenting/sharing his opinion and that she had no obligation to discuss this with him at all and maybe she should consider getting rid of him. Now, I know that my husband is an autonomous individual who is not only capable but entitled to make some decisions for himself. But something like this would definitely be discussed together. We discuss everything. I value his opinion and he values mine. Clothing is definitely something where we now have differences of opinion. I am concerned with buying ethically made and sustainable materials. Most of the time, if I can't get that, I turn to the second hand market. Since my 100 day dress challenge and the learning that produced, my buying habits have changed. I have expressed all of this to him and yet, his buying habits have not changed in response. Although, he now is more likely to shop the thrift stores with me whereas before he wouldn't even consider second hand clothing. And one thing I totally appreciate about him is that he holds onto his clothing forever. Even when I'm begging him to get rid of something. (I'm looking at you ugly green, torn, dirty sweatshirt that he works on cars wearing and every once in a while will try to sneak out of the house wearing) But I was just thinking about this because there are a myriad of issues that we differ on, doesn't mean we don't discuss them, our preferences, and our reasoning. We just accept that the other person has good reasons for why they choose to do what they do and offer our contrast opinions and the other gives them consideration. Plus, with something like this, space and money might be issues. My husband and I would definitely be concerned with the other's opinion due to space and money. I was wondering is it this climate of polarization that we are so dismissive of the thoughts and opinions of people that even our own husbands don't get the respect of being heard and understood? Have we gotten to the boiling point where people are just so set in their ways, they aren't giving any consideration at all to the thoughts of others around them, including some of the nearest and dearest? I mean there are so many times when I am trying to work something out in my head that I even come here and ask online friends (strangers?) for their opinions on an issue so I can consider all the things I might not be thinking of. So it seems so foreign to me to not give any consideration to the man I married. Anyway, I'm trying to come up with one example where I simply dismissed his thoughts and would say fuck you to him, not even caring. Or I'm trying to imagine any kind of scenario where I would dump him for disagreeing with something I do. ➡️➡️➡️ Maybe these commenters have a history of being controlled by a spouse? 🛎🛎🛎🎊 Or have never had a spouse at all? We don't disagree much and that is probably because we are generally pretty easy going but I really do believe a lot of times, it's because we listen to each other and try to compromise or at least respect where the other is coming from. Anyone married or divorced want to weigh in? ETA: I did not intentionally mean to not include widows. You're welcome here. This is what I was thinking while reading it and I fit that scenario even though I’ve never been married. So if I were in a relationship I wouldn’t show my partner/husband the clothes I buy. Am I using his money or my own? I think it’s all about intent. I wouldn’t buy any inappropriate clothing. That teen years ship has sailed long ago and I have an addiction to external validation I have been working on since. |
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Post by hopechest on Aug 16, 2023 21:53:14 GMT
I can wear whatever I like. He has no input whatsoever. I also get to pick what he wears and he also has no input to that whatsoever either.
However, I am a well put together woman. He tried to leave the house the other day wearing tevas and socks. #justified
LOL
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Post by wordyphotogbabe on Aug 17, 2023 2:36:49 GMT
I place a lot of weight on intention so it would depend on whether my fiance was expressing an opinion or expressing a value (or judgment) couched in an opinion. He and I consume very different types of media. I know exactly what his opinion is of the reality romance shows I watch, and he knows exactly what my opinion is of his Saturday morning NPR game show. Since having the same taste in media is not an important value for us, we're free to express or hold those opinions while also not requiring the other person to share that opinion or make decisions based on that opinion. We're certainly welcome to share those opinions with one another but it also doesn't really matter to either of us what the other person thinks when it comes to that, KWIM? On the other hand, we share several values that relate to how we parent our children. We each take the opinion of the other seriously when it comes to how we interact with and raise our children because we know those opinions are reiterating our common parenting values and goals. If my fiance were to express a seriously "off-value" opinion about my parenting or his parenting, it wouldn't be an immediate "head straight to divorce court" scenario but it would cause me concern and spurn one or more serious conversations about what had been said or done. Depending on how those played out and if he continued to express and act on those "off-value" opinions, it could eventually lead to something serious like separation, divorce, etc. Many things fall somewhere between these two examples. We have separate bank accounts with an understanding of who pays for what when it comes to the mortgage, utilities, food, trips, etc. and also a grey area that is left up to each person's discretion. We like, love, and know each other well enough that we simply make decisions and express opinions that make sense to both of us most of the time. That's not to say that we can't change our minds and opinions on things but that there are some values so fundamental to who we are as people and this relationship that it would be impossible to carry on if they were changed in a significant way. Hopefully that makes some sort of sense. |
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Post by dewryce on Aug 17, 2023 3:14:18 GMT
My first thought is that one of the reasons I married my husband is specifically because I value his opinion/point of view. I find him interesting and I always want to know what he thinks! He often provides a different way of looking at things. Even and especially if we do have different opinions, and believe me we do about tons of things even some important ones. I may not even respect every opinion he has, but I respect the hell out of his right to have it and will always want him to know he can share them with me. Now, if DH was judgmental or mean when expressing his opinion, that’s different. If it was something we’ve discussed a million times before and have agreed to disagree and his opinion is not much more than a pointed statement, not okay. If it’s used as a way to control, hell no. But simply having a different opinion…I fail to see the issue. I strongly agree with what Merge said about backlash and sleepingbooty thinks about general fatigue for minority groups. And I suspect there is a lot of projecting going on with those responses, for example as you said with controlling spouses. Or they know they DO spend too much, take up too much space and feel guilty so they’re actually defending themselves, not the woman who wrote in. She really didn’t provide enough information for those kinds of comments. |
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Post by Merge on Aug 17, 2023 13:23:18 GMT
I can wear whatever I like. He has no input whatsoever. I also get to pick what he wears and he also has no input to that whatsoever either. However, I am a well put together woman. He tried to leave the house the other day wearing tevas and socks. #justified LOL In his middle age, my husband has acquired a pair of rainbow tie-dye Crocs, and wears them almost everywhere, over my loud objections. They bring him great joy. Our deal is that I'm always free to give my opinion, and I will, but he is also free to ignore it. Haha. He wore those ugly things all over Australia on our recent vacation. He is allowed to object to the number of my shoes and clothes, but I also ignore him on that point (with the understanding that I'm not going to bankrupt us buying shoes). We all manage our relationships in our own way. |
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