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Post by belgravia on Sept 30, 2023 18:21:25 GMT
I'm not at all surprised busy . I read a static that said 82% of college students believe that the point of an education is to make money. In the 60s that number was like 40%. It's clearly coming from the parents' attitudes. Sad that it's coming on so hard from people who are educated themselves. It's also clear to me watching the loan forgiveness debate that those who didn't go to college also overwhelmingly believe the only value is money. Think about the world these kids are coming of age in. Most of them feel they will never be able to own their own home…prices rising faster than anyone can save for a down payment, interest rates rising, on it goes. Rents are sky high, gas, groceries, utilities all increasing. Crippling student debt for many. A lot feel their futures are a bit bleak and they’ll never be able to afford to retire. No wonder they’re so focused on money.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Sept 30, 2023 18:23:39 GMT
I'm not at all surprised busy . I read a static that said 82% of college students believe that the point of an education is to make money. In the 60s that number was like 40%. It's clearly coming from the parents' attitudes. Sad that it's coming on so hard from people who are educated themselves. It's also clear to me watching the loan forgiveness debate that those who didn't go to college also overwhelmingly believe the only value is money. Think about the world these kids are coming of age in. Most of them feel they will never be able to own their own home…prices rising faster than anyone can save for a down payment, interest rates rising, on it goes. Rents are sky high, gas, groceries, utilities all increasing. Crippling student debt for many. A lot feel their futures are a bit bleak and they’ll never be able to afford to retire. No wonder they’re so focused on money. I think you misunderstand my point. I never said money wasn't important. What I said is that education is about way more than money. At least I put much more value on my degrees than what I earn.
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Post by belgravia on Sept 30, 2023 18:25:54 GMT
Think about the world these kids are coming of age in. Most of them feel they will never be able to own their own home…prices rising faster than anyone can save for a down payment, interest rates rising, on it goes. Rents are sky high, gas, groceries, utilities all increasing. Crippling student debt for many. A lot feel their futures are a bit bleak and they’ll never be able to afford to retire. No wonder they’re so focused on money. I think you misunderstand my point. I never said money wasn't important. What I said is that education is about way more than money. At least I put much more value on my degrees than what I earn. Oh I totally agree with you, education is so much bigger than money. Sometimes, though, while you’re IN IT, it’s hard to recognize that. It feels like a means to an end.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Sept 30, 2023 18:28:19 GMT
I think you misunderstand my point. I never said money wasn't important. What I said is that education is about way more than money. At least I put much more value on my degrees than what I earn. Oh I totally agree with you, education is so much bigger than money. Sometimes, though, while you’re IN IT, it’s hard to recognize that. It feels like a means to an end. Exactly how you describe it? That's exactly the attitude I have a problem with. It's a societal attitude, not an individual one. It shouldn't be a means to an end. And learning should never end. Anyway, that's my position.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Sept 30, 2023 20:47:34 GMT
FTR, I never took a single art class in high school beyond the one worthless trimester of general art that was required in 9th grade. I did not take any art classes in junior or high school. It was not required. I wish it would have been, at least one class. I wish there would have been access to classes like your 8th grader! I’ve always been an artistic, crafty person so the one semester of doing basic stuff in 9th grade that I had already mastered years prior was a total waste of time to me. But my kid has the most amazing computer lab at her school with a room full of computers, 3D printers, a couple laser cutters, a sewing machine, a huge commercial printer that they can print full color vinyl or paper graphics and then cut them into stickers with a big commercial plotter cutter, it’s seriously awesome. That’s in addition to a traditional art studio where they do painting, drawing, pottery, etc. I think she said this year they will also be able to do digital art on iPads too in art class which is what she prefers and excels in. I had a semester of wood shop and a semester of home ec in 8th grade. I don’t remember having any art classes at all. I also took a year of German that year which was a total waste. The high school teacher the following year was horrible so I dropped it. In hindsight I should have taken Spanish, it would have been much more useful.
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Post by katlady on Sept 30, 2023 20:58:57 GMT
I had a semester of wood shop and a semester of home ec in 8th grade. We couldn't take both home ec and shop. The girls were pretty much assigned to home ec and the boys to shop. We had Japanese in Junior High, but it wasn't offered in High School, so there was no sense taking it because you couldn't get the required number of semester credits for college. So, I ended up with 4 years of Spanish. Yes, useful for the area, but I would have rather taken Japanese. I am jealous of the art/computer opportunities your kid has. Of course, computers weren't around in my school years, but the traditional art studio sounds amazing!
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Post by Merge on Sept 30, 2023 22:52:52 GMT
Oh I totally agree with you, education is so much bigger than money. Sometimes, though, while you’re IN IT, it’s hard to recognize that. It feels like a means to an end. Exactly how you describe it? That's exactly the attitude I have a problem with. It's a societal attitude, not an individual one. It shouldn't be a means to an end. And learning should never end. Anyway, that's my position. I agree that learning should never end, but I also understand that it's difficult for most people to justify a six-figure investment in themselves that doesn't come with some tangible reward.
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,002
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on Oct 1, 2023 2:04:43 GMT
I think some memorization can be very good to do. The multiplication tables, bill of rights, things like that. My 8th grade English teacher made us memorize 1 poem each week. On Friday each student had to stand in front of the class and recite the poem. You got marked down if you got a word wrong. I didn't hate the assignments but looking back on it at age 39 I can say that perhaps me still being able to recite clearly, "The northern lights have seen queer sights but the queerest they ever did see, was that night on the marge of Lake Lebarge I cremated Sam Mcgee..." was not the best use of educational time. My favorite class and the best teacher I ever had specifically did not want us to memorize dates and names. He wanted us to spend our time understanding the material on a deeper level than that. Not a single one of his tests or assignments ever had a question where the answer was a date. Cursive should be an elective for middle schoolers. I have never diagrammed a sentence and I don't actually know what that means. Poetry recitation is not what I am thinking. Memorized things don't need to be graded either. It can be done as part of the process. Kids may not remember everything you try to have them memorize, but it does build muscle memory. I don't think asking 6th grade students to write 2-3 complete sentences using correct grammar, mechanics, spelling is asking to much especially when their digital tools underline mistakes. I have no expectations that all children can learn everything equally, but that shouldn't mean we don't try. It is impossible to create an individual learning plan for every student. Not every kid is good at science. Do we just excuse them from taking it? Not good at math. That's okay. You don't need to learn it. Who decides?
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,002
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on Oct 1, 2023 2:08:41 GMT
I have such mixed feelings on some of this stuff. Our elementary curriculum is too advanced these days. No one has time to teach cursive except to accelerated learners. Kids have to learn technical skills that we never did. We’re expected to make every one of them ready for college. If there isn’t enough time and we start adding more stuff to the curriculum, the first thing that always gets cut is the arts. And you know what we do in music class? A fair amount of rote memorization, and looking for patterns and learning rules for expression (like grammar). That’s in addition to the SEL skills and history/geography embedded in many lessons. Is it worth getting rid of all that to make room for cursive? I had music, art, P.E. etc. in elementary school and still learned cursive. There was time. I think the arts are invaluable because they teach students completely different things. They work with different parts of their brains. I think all kids can memorize things. I am not looking to assess it. I am looking to use it as a tool.
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,002
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on Oct 1, 2023 2:10:53 GMT
I have such mixed feelings on some of this stuff. Our elementary curriculum is too advanced these days. No one has time to teach cursive except to accelerated learners. Kids have to learn technical skills that we never did. We’re expected to make every one of them ready for college. If there isn’t enough time and we start adding more stuff to the curriculum, the first thing that always gets cut is the arts. And you know what we do in music class? A fair amount of rote memorization, and looking for patterns and learning rules for expression (like grammar). That’s in addition to the SEL skills and history/geography embedded in many lessons. Is it worth getting rid of all that to make room for cursive? I agree with you about having mixed feelings. My kid did have a stint with cursive in 3rd grade so she kind of uses it, kind of not. In spite of being a truly amazing artist, her hybrid handwriting is horrific, LOL. I also agree that they need to know how to function in a computer literate society. The more I think about it, the more I think that kids should be required to be in school longer, either more days in a year or more years in total, simply because there is so much more that they need to know now and there just aren’t enough hours in a day or days in a year to teach it. I think having a strong foundation in the arts helps all students to be more creative and to think in more abstract ways in all their other subjects. Kids really do suffer when those programs are cut. I believe that learning to be able to quickly and accurately memorize things in my early school years helped me a LOT in high school and college, as did learning how to take good notes. I aced so many history classes all the way up through college art history (which was HARD) because I had the capacity to take great notes and memorize critical information from those notes. Manually writing things down really helps to cement information in my brain. As a side point, writing in cursive is much faster which makes it better for taking notes on the fly during lectures in class. I agree with everything you said. Arts are critical to help students become problem solvers and develop critical thinking skills.
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,002
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on Oct 1, 2023 2:13:05 GMT
The more I think about it, the more I think that kids should be required to be in school longer, either more days in a year or more years in total, simply because there is so much more that they need to know now and there just aren’t enough hours in a day or days in a year to teach it. I don’t think more time in school, or longer years, is the answer. I think that we need to allow our kids to start their targeted learning earlier, like they do in many European countries. If a student is interested in studying fine art, maybe they don’t need to take chemistry or trigonometry. If they’re doing math, maybe they don’t need psychology. Understanding how credit and tax brackets work are going to be far more useful to the average person in their life than diagramming a sentence or writing cursive. I would advocate for this at the high school level. I like that high schools offer different paths/programs for students. I am also extremely happy that at least where I am, there is a push for trade/technical training. Not every student is going to a 4 year college. It is great that they see different paths.
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,002
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on Oct 1, 2023 2:15:03 GMT
If not cursive, how about handwriting in general. I think students are put on technology at too young of an age. I think it takes young students a longer time to try and hunt and peck a keyboard than it does to write. Having to decipher students writing is a challenge.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,375
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Oct 1, 2023 2:17:15 GMT
I firmly believe rote memorization is good for kids. I believe we need to go back to diagramming sentences. I believe we need to teach cursive. It isn't about being able to look up answers on the phone or the computer. It is about being able to recall information and building connections in the brain, I think a certain amount of rote memorization may have value; that said, it can also happen that a kid will memorize some things and yet not really understand the concept. Understanding the concept is more important, which also builds connections in the brain. I never got value out of diagramming sentences, and I am a good writer. We should at least expose kids to cursive. My sister in law is a reading specialist & she swears by something called Science of Reading.
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Post by Merge on Oct 1, 2023 2:20:14 GMT
I have such mixed feelings on some of this stuff. Our elementary curriculum is too advanced these days. No one has time to teach cursive except to accelerated learners. Kids have to learn technical skills that we never did. We’re expected to make every one of them ready for college. If there isn’t enough time and we start adding more stuff to the curriculum, the first thing that always gets cut is the arts. And you know what we do in music class? A fair amount of rote memorization, and looking for patterns and learning rules for expression (like grammar). That’s in addition to the SEL skills and history/geography embedded in many lessons. Is it worth getting rid of all that to make room for cursive? I had music, art, P.E. etc. in elementary school and still learned cursive. There was time. I think the arts are invaluable because they teach students completely different things. They work with different parts of their brains. I think all kids can memorize things. I am not looking to assess it. I am looking to use it as a tool. We did not have the academic expectations placed on us that kids do now, though. Second grade is waaayyyyy more advanced now than it was then. That and the kids have to pass those tests starting in 3rd grade.
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,002
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on Oct 1, 2023 2:22:24 GMT
I firmly believe rote memorization is good for kids. I believe we need to go back to diagramming sentences. I believe we need to teach cursive. It isn't about being able to look up answers on the phone or the computer. It is about being able to recall information and building connections in the brain, I think a certain amount of rote memorization may have value; that said, it can also happen that a kid will memorize some things and yet not really understand the concept. Understanding the concept is more important, which also builds connections in the brain. I never got value out of diagramming sentences, and I am a good writer. We should at least expose kids to cursive. My sister in law is a reading specialist & she swears by something called Science of Reading. I would be interested in the Science of Reading. I think the biggest mistake our district did was combine reading and ELA into one class. Before there was a separate reading and a separate English class. Our reading scores are going down.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,375
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Oct 1, 2023 2:33:25 GMT
I will ask my sister in law for some links to get you started. If I don't message you by Tuesday, remind me!
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Post by melanell on Oct 1, 2023 2:42:18 GMT
I have to say that diagramming sentences never did a thing for me after I stopped having English classes. Although, I was enough of a grammar nerd to actually like diagramming them, LOL! I do think cursive is important for numerous reasons. However, my kids did still learn some cursive in school. Not nearly as much time was devoted to it, but they learned it. There was more focus on reading it than writing it, though. And as someone who reads pages & pages of cursive all of the time, I'm glad they learned to read it. Much of our history is in cursive, and not all of history is even digitalized, never mind transferred to typeface instead of handwriting. As it is, you need to take extra time to learn what cursive looked like going back in time, because it changed over the decades. And it looks different depending on language/country as well. So I am glad to at least have already known how to read modern English cursive before I had to dive into older cursive or foreign (to me) languages in cursive. I think memorizing is important in some cases. I memorized many, many things in my day, but only the ones I kept using stuck. But again, my kids do still have to memorize some things in school---early math, for sure, but also anatomy, geography, the Periodic Table, and so forth. They've had far less memorization of poetry than I did. And again, as someone who truly enjoyed poetry in school, I never enjoyed memorizing it. And despite having successfully recited several poems in the past, I couldn't recite a single one of them today.
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Post by mammajamma on Oct 1, 2023 2:51:51 GMT
I’m teaching one Spanish class for homeschool/university model kids. They are 12-13 years old. I wish they understood grammar better. I think they are having a difficult time understanding the Spanish language rules and verb conjugations due to their lack of basic grammar. I believe a few years after sentence diagramming would greatly help. I went through a homeschool grammar curriculum with my daughter in grades 4 & 5 and she did sentence diagramming weekly. She is now in 7th grade, and we no longer do that. I think she has the fundamentals though and could pick it up easily. She is in my Spanish class and does understand the lessons better! But could be because she is my child and I understand how she thinks.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 1, 2023 3:17:18 GMT
Exactly how you describe it? That's exactly the attitude I have a problem with. It's a societal attitude, not an individual one. It shouldn't be a means to an end. And learning should never end. Anyway, that's my position. I agree that learning should never end, but I also understand that it's difficult for most people to justify a six-figure investment in themselves that doesn't come with some tangible reward. This is why I will will always argue in favor of free public university. Apart from healthcare, the is the #2 most valuable investment we can make in this country.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 1, 2023 3:23:51 GMT
I don’t think more time in school, or longer years, is the answer. I think that we need to allow our kids to start their targeted learning earlier, like they do in many European countries. If a student is interested in studying fine art, maybe they don’t need to take chemistry or trigonometry. If they’re doing math, maybe they don’t need psychology. Understanding how credit and tax brackets work are going to be far more useful to the average person in their life than diagramming a sentence or writing cursive. I would advocate for this at the high school level. I like that high schools offer different paths/programs for students. I am also extremely happy that at least where I am, there is a push for trade/technical training. Not every student is going to a 4 year college. It is great that they see different paths. In the district where we live, there is a renewed push for kids to explore various career paths in high school which includes the trades. There is such a shortage of people who can fix things, build things, who know how things work.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 1, 2023 3:36:25 GMT
I had music, art, P.E. etc. in elementary school and still learned cursive. There was time. I think the arts are invaluable because they teach students completely different things. They work with different parts of their brains. I think all kids can memorize things. I am not looking to assess it. I am looking to use it as a tool. We did not have the academic expectations placed on us that kids do now, though. Second grade is waaayyyyy more advanced now than it was then. That and the kids have to pass those tests starting in 3rd grade. You are absolutely right. I couldn’t believe how much more my kid was expected to know coming out of K, 1st and 2nd grade especially. There’s a LOT that’s getting crammed into those years.
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Post by KiwiJo on Oct 1, 2023 6:33:44 GMT
I would advocate for this at the high school level. I like that high schools offer different paths/programs for students. I am also extremely happy that at least where I am, there is a push for trade/technical training. Not every student is going to a 4 year college. It is great that they see different paths. In the district where we live, there is a renewed push for kids to explore various career paths in high school which includes the trades. There is such a shortage of people who can fix things, build things, who know how things work. Thank goodness for that! The trend over recent years (decades, probably) that says everyone should go to university or risk being a loser is so detrimental to many folk, and to society as a whole. So many “trades” here have University requirements or preferences, and I think it’s ridiculous. Why on earth should a carpenter need to go to university, unless they particularly want to? And why on earth should a carpenter be thought of, as any less worthy than an accountant? When the requirements for higher education started to ramp up for tradies, I knew it would result in a shortage of them, and that is what’s happening, at least where I live. Some people are more suited to learning by doing, than by sitting in tutorials & labs - by and large, I think those people are going to enjoy and excel at the traditional apprenticeship jobs. Jobs where people learn the practicalities and the knowledge required from more experienced workers. Of course some jobs require University-level education, but many don’t. And I absolutely abhor the current thinking that University-level education is important for everyone. I abhor the thinking that university education is so important, and that people who went to university are more worthy. And I abhor the pay scales that are seemingly based on university education, and little to do with how necessary that job is. Society absolutely needs people who can can fix things, build things, who know how things work, as you say. The so-called trades do require some specialised learning, of course, but that’s not necessarily at University level. But there are also the jobs that are vital to our societies which really do not require further education at all, and which would result in our societies pretty well failing if no-one did these jobs. Collecting the garbage, for example, is one of the most important occupations there is as far as society is concerned. Where would society be if no-one ever collected rubbish and trash??? Guess which is one of the least well-paid jobs there is? Now of course I’m not saying that many people would plan on growing up to be a garbage collector, but that is probably one of the most vital, but least well-thought of, jobs there is. Between the work of a corporate lawyer and a rubbish-collector (for example) - which occupation would have the most detrimental effect on the way every single one of us lives if it was to disappear? Why is someone who went to University judged to be more worthwhile that someone who didn’t? Sorry, I’ve gone off track here, but the whole issue of ‘everyone should go to University’ is a hot topic for me.
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The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
Posts: 2,930
Jun 25, 2014 21:50:33 GMT
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Oct 1, 2023 13:06:42 GMT
I firmly believe rote memorization is good for kids. I believe we need to go back to diagramming sentences. I believe we need to teach cursive. It isn't about being able to look up answers on the phone or the computer. It is about being able to recall information and building connections in the brain, I have been thinking about this for a couple of days; I teach high school ELA, so I am mostly answering from that perspective (I also have current high schoolers at home). Typing this quickly--need to leave soon. Sorry for any typos. Memorization: It can be a tool, but I would not waste my time doing any kind of "old school" rote memorization in class. My students do learn through memorization, but it is through repetition of terms/concepts being used over and over again in various ways. So I reintroduce "characterization" each year in high school (and they learned the term long before I came into play). We look at characterization in various texts and look at it from different lenses. Each year we go more in depth and challenge them more. That is how the state/national standards work. Vocabulary: We usually are exposed the first time through a preview, to see what we know already. Then we take interactive notes on the words. Then, we read the text with the words in the text. Then, we usually play a game or two---I often use GimKit, which is great for memorization. I also make the test, along with a Quizlet, available for the students to study on their own. In my Mythology course, there are a lot of beings , stories, etc... that need to remembered. We do all kinds of the things mentioned above as well as Google Doc charts, creative activities, watch videos, etc.. to help remember the terms. So, I DO think kids do quite a bit of memorization; it just might look a little different than it did in the past. Also, as a side note, on one hand, "kids these days" often don't seem to know some alarmingly common terms/things, but on the other hand, they know SO MUCH MORE than I ever did! It is amazing the knowledge they retain from YouTube, independent research/rabbit holes, TikTok, etc... OK, sorry I have to take my kid to a LAX game, but I would like to respond to the other ones as well. I will try later.
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Post by mollycoddle on Oct 1, 2023 13:21:42 GMT
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Post by Merge on Oct 1, 2023 13:54:52 GMT
In the district where we live, there is a renewed push for kids to explore various career paths in high school which includes the trades. There is such a shortage of people who can fix things, build things, who know how things work. Thank goodness for that! The trend over recent years (decades, probably) that says everyone should go to university or risk being a loser is so detrimental to many folk, and to society as a whole. So many “trades” here have University requirements or preferences, and I think it’s ridiculous. Why on earth should a carpenter need to go to university, unless they particularly want to? And why on earth should a carpenter be thought of, as any less worthy than an accountant? When the requirements for higher education started to ramp up for tradies, I knew it would result in a shortage of them, and that is what’s happening, at least where I live. Some people are more suited to learning by doing, than by sitting in tutorials & labs - by and large, I think those people are going to enjoy and excel at the traditional apprenticeship jobs. Jobs where people learn the practicalities and the knowledge required from more experienced workers. Of course some jobs require University-level education, but many don’t. And I absolutely abhor the current thinking that University-level education is important for everyone. I abhor the thinking that university education is so important, and that people who went to university are more worthy. And I abhor the pay scales that are seemingly based on university education, and little to do with how necessary that job is. Society absolutely needs people who can can fix things, build things, who know how things work, as you say. The so-called trades do require some specialised learning, of course, but that’s not necessarily at University level. But there are also the jobs that are vital to our societies which really do not require further education at all, and which would result in our societies pretty well failing if no-one did these jobs. Collecting the garbage, for example, is one of the most important occupations there is as far as society is concerned. Where would society be if no-one ever collected rubbish and trash??? Guess which is one of the least well-paid jobs there is? Now of course I’m not saying that many people would plan on growing up to be a garbage collector, but that is probably one of the most vital, but least well-thought of, jobs there is. Between the work of a corporate lawyer and a rubbish-collector (for example) - which occupation would have the most detrimental effect on the way every single one of us lives if it was to disappear? Why is someone who went to University judged to be more worthwhile that someone who didn’t? Sorry, I’ve gone off track here, but the whole issue of ‘everyone should go to University’ is a hot topic for me. I don’t disagree with you, but I can tell you for free that my plumber and electrician make more than I do with my master’s degree. And good for them. They’re also one back injury away from permanent unemployment, which is something I think people gloss over when recommending the trades. Ultimately, though, workers in the private sector are paid based on the amount of money they make for their employer. Is a corporate lawyer more important? No, but she probably saves her employer a lot of money, and is paid accordingly. And of course, the market has to pay people who obtain expensive professional degrees more, or there’s no incentive for people to get those degrees. Public sector workers are a different story, of course.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 1, 2023 14:02:55 GMT
I’ve heard that before and it really doesn’t surprise me at all. I filled up multiple notebooks with handwritten notes when I took art history in college and used those notes to create my own hand written flash cards of sorts to use for studying. I’m sure that handwriting my notes really helped to solidify the information I needed to know so I would remember it for the tests. My kid’s school encourages the kids right from the start to use a paper planner to write down schedules, assignments and due dates, etc. to help teach them how to stay on track.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 1, 2023 14:18:48 GMT
KiwiJo i don't think anyone thinks a carpenter or a garbage collector is any less worthy than a lawyer. In fact I think we all serve a function in society and I think everyone deserves a living wage. (My own daughter is an electrical apprentice. I could go on a whole tangent though about what a fucking boys club it is and how much harassment she got at her last electrical job.) But that doesn't discount the need for higher level thinking, something I think we are seeing missing right now in a lot of Americans. Should everyone go to college? Probably not. Should everyone have a basic, comprehensive education that is college preparatory in nature? I think yes. Maybe you aren't seeing it from your country, but people in the US are having a hard time separating fact from fiction. The pandemic showed all of us the level of disdain for science. There is a distinct lack of respect for credentialed, educated professionals from teachers to scientific researchers. Do I think less of my DD who is going to be an electrician than I do of myself (with an MBA)? No. There's room for all of us. I was the very first person in my family to go to college. I love and respect a lot of people in my life who don't have anything beyond a high school diploma. My own husband, who I love and admire dearly, had to get a GED when he was 21 because he was a drop out. I think he is entitled to dignified work. But would all of these people have benefitted from a level of higher learning, most likely yes. A lot of them chose the professions they did because of lack of access to college. That I want changed. I don't think valuing higher education and wanting everyone to do continued learning = disrespect. And I hate how you seem to assume that those of us who want an intelligent society look down on others because of their occupation. It takes all of us to make this economy move.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 1, 2023 14:19:48 GMT
I don’t disagree with you, but I can tell you for free that my plumber and electrician make more than I do with my master’s degree. And good for them. They’re also one back injury away from permanent unemployment, which is something I think people gloss over when recommending the trades. Ultimately, though, workers in the private sector are paid based on the amount of money they make for their employer. Is a corporate lawyer more important? No, but she probably saves her employer a lot of money, and is paid accordingly. And of course, the market has to pay people who obtain expensive professional degrees more, or there’s no incentive for people to get those degrees. Public sector workers are a different story, of course. My DH is now in the trades as are a number of my siblings and cousins. As a result we know a lot of people who work in various trade occupations. I think a big part of why so many of them make what they do is because they are self employed and not working for someone else. Being self employed has a lot of hidden perks. Those who aren’t self employed tend to be members of a union.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 1, 2023 14:36:47 GMT
Some kids need to wait and figure it out, but some know what they want to do early on and should be allowed to pursue it. I am grateful that my state in the 80s only required two credits each of math and science in high school, which left me space junior and senior year for the extra choir and theater credits I wanted. Others used the extra time to take technology or career classes, or business, or a variety of other things. And of course many went ahead and took physics and chemistry in junior and senior year, and calculus and calc II, because their interests lay that way. I’m also grateful that my youngest got to attend excellent fine arts magnet schools and begin her specialization early. She knew in childhood, as I did, that music was what she wanted to do - and having the time and opportunity to not only play in the orchestra, but also to take chamber music, music theory, and other classes gave her a strong advantage over kids in comprehensive high schools who only had space for one orchestra credit. Our district also has high schools for kids who know or think they might want to specialize in science, aviation, criminal justice, international relations, and other areas. When a kid knows what they want to do, I don’t see any benefit in making them wait to start doing it. But to your point, there is also no benefit to forcing a kid who doesn’t have that surety to pick a career path too soon. If a kid *actually* knows what they want to specialize in, I’m fully supportive of them being allowed to. But IME, that’s the exception not the rule. In most cases, kids don’t know and are being pushed by parents to pick something. I don’t know the stats but I’d wager it’s not a lot of people who get a degree in what they start in and then end up working in that field. It’s purely anecdotal, but I just see soooo much pressure on 15, 16, 17 year olds to pick what they’re going to do for the rest of their lives when they don’t really have any idea. It's not just the parents. So many schools have impacted majors - if you aren't accepted freshman year, you're not getting in. It can be particularly true for higher income parents who aren't going to receive financial aid for private schools and really want to take advantage of excellent public schools in their state. We actually used the data on percentage to people who aren't in the same field as their degree to destress our kids. You're really NOT Picking what you're going to do for the rest of your life when you're choosing your degree. You can leverage a degree into way more different careers than people appreciate.
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cakediva
Drama Llama
Making the world a sweeter place one cake at a time!
Posts: 7,444
Location: Fergus, Ontario
Jun 26, 2014 11:53:40 GMT
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Post by cakediva on Oct 1, 2023 14:45:44 GMT
If kids are not taught cursive, how do they/will they sign their names on legal documents? My thoughts exactly. When we got passports for the kids - DS had never signed his name on anything. He had to practice for days to fit it into that little box it had to fit in on the application. Having been taught cursive might have helped this. Does nobody sign their name on anything? I get that now we can sign electronically - most of my wedding contracts are done with a click and a "type your name" "check the box you agree" kind of thing. But if I'm at the law office for our mortgage or signing life insurance documents, if you don't know cursive, how are you signing your name??
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