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Post by monklady123 on Oct 1, 2023 14:50:12 GMT
If kids are not taught cursive, how do they/will they sign their names on legal documents? My thoughts exactly. When we got passports for the kids - DS had never signed his name on anything. He had to practice for days to fit it into that little box it had to fit in on the application. Having been taught cursive might have helped this. Does nobody sign their name on anything? I get that now we can sign electronically - most of my wedding contracts are done with a click and a "type your name" "check the box you agree" kind of thing. But if I'm at the law office for our mortgage or signing life insurance documents, if you don't know cursive, how are you signing your name?? My ds, the one who taught himself to read cursive because he needed it as a history major, just does some squiggle thing that has become his signature. It's the same every time he does it but really the only thing legible is the first letter of his first and last names. lol. But it really doesn't matter what it says, as long as it's more or less the same thing the next time if you need to show proof. Although does that ever happen anymore? Also, many things are now signed electronically through email. My dh and I recently switched to a different investment group and we never met in person, not even once. Every signature was online.
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Post by Merge on Oct 1, 2023 14:52:07 GMT
If kids are not taught cursive, how do they/will they sign their names on legal documents? My thoughts exactly. When we got passports for the kids - DS had never signed his name on anything. He had to practice for days to fit it into that little box it had to fit in on the application. Having been taught cursive might have helped this. Does nobody sign their name on anything? I get that now we can sign electronically - most of my wedding contracts are done with a click and a "type your name" "check the box you agree" kind of thing. But if I'm at the law office for our mortgage or signing life insurance documents, if you don't know cursive, how are you signing your name?? Our most recent mortgage and car loans were all done with electronic signatures. I was taught cursive, but my signature is an illegible scrawl, and no one has ever told me to re-do it. I just don’t think cursive is a big necessity anymore.
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Post by busy on Oct 1, 2023 14:54:34 GMT
If a kid *actually* knows what they want to specialize in, I’m fully supportive of them being allowed to. But IME, that’s the exception not the rule. In most cases, kids don’t know and are being pushed by parents to pick something. I don’t know the stats but I’d wager it’s not a lot of people who get a degree in what they start in and then end up working in that field. It’s purely anecdotal, but I just see soooo much pressure on 15, 16, 17 year olds to pick what they’re going to do for the rest of their lives when they don’t really have any idea. It's not just the parents. So many schools have impacted majors - if you aren't accepted freshman year, you're not getting in. It can be particularly true for higher income parents who aren't going to receive financial aid for private schools and really want to take advantage of excellent public schools in their state. We actually used the data on percentage to people who aren't in the same field as their degree to destress our kids. You're really NOT Picking what you're going to do for the rest of your life when you're choosing your degree. You can leverage a degree into way more different careers than people appreciate. Yes, I regularly remind my kid that my college majors have absolutely nothing to do with what i do now (or what I’ve ever done professionally). Maybe it’s just the time we’re at right now (beginning of sophomore year) and it seems everyone we know is hiring consultants and there’s so much pressure and it’s just crazy. Choosing a school was intense when i was growing up and now it feels easily 5x what i went through.
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Post by busy on Oct 1, 2023 14:58:41 GMT
If kids are not taught cursive, how do they/will they sign their names on legal documents? My thoughts exactly. When we got passports for the kids - DS had never signed his name on anything. He had to practice for days to fit it into that little box it had to fit in on the application. Having been taught cursive might have helped this. Does nobody sign their name on anything? I get that now we can sign electronically - most of my wedding contracts are done with a click and a "type your name" "check the box you agree" kind of thing. But if I'm at the law office for our mortgage or signing life insurance documents, if you don't know cursive, how are you signing your name?? My kid doesn’t “know cursive” but he figured out a signature in a matter of minutes. Are most people’s signatures actually legible? Mine never has been. You can discern the first two letters of my first name and the first letter of my last name and that’s it. It’s certainly nothing resembling proper cursive and never was, even though I was taught it in school.
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Post by KiwiJo on Oct 1, 2023 14:58:51 GMT
KiwiJo i don't think anyone thinks a carpenter or a garbage collector is any less worthy than a lawyer. In fact I think we all serve a function in society and I think everyone deserves a living wage. (My own daughter is an electrical apprentice. I could go on a whole tangent though about what a fucking boys club it is and how much harassment she got at her last electrical job.) But that doesn't discount the need for higher level thinking, something I think we are seeing missing right now in a lot of Americans. Should everyone go to college? Probably not. Should everyone have a basic, comprehensive education that is college preparatory in nature? I think yes. Maybe you aren't seeing it from your country, but people in the US are having a hard time separating fact from fiction. The pandemic showed all of us the level of disdain for science. There is a distinct lack of respect for credentialed, educated professionals from teachers to scientific researchers. Do I think less of my DD who is going to be an electrician than I do of myself (with an MBA)? No. There's room for all of us. I was the very first person in my family to go to college. I love and respect a lot of people in my life who don't have anything beyond a high school diploma. My own husband, who I love and admire dearly, had to get a GED when he was 21 because he was a drop out. I think he is entitled to dignified work. But would all of these people have benefitted from a level of higher learning, most likely yes. A lot of them chose the professions they did because of lack of access to college. That I want changed. I don't think valuing higher education and wanting everyone to do continued learning = disrespect. And I hate how you seem to assume that those of us who want an intelligent society look down on others because of their occupation. It takes all of us to make this economy move. Ah, I apologise for not making part of my post clearer - it’s not that I believe individuals think lower paid workers, or workers of so-called menial tasks, are not worthy but society as a whole does so. Our ‘western’ cultures value some occupations above others, and often the less-valued are critical to the way that culture or society works and functions. In your first paragraph, you asked if everyone should go to college - I would say a straight-out No. I do not believe college or University level education is required for all jobs, or for all people. I would also say that society putting such pressure on everyone, or even on most high school students is doing them a disservice. I do absolutely agree with you though, that a basic and comprehensive education should be given to all children, and yes up to college preparatory level for everyone. Our education system in NZ is not particularly good IMO, and fails a lot of people. I would very much like to see all students up to (& including) high school get an education that makes them want to learn. That teaches them critical thinking. Hells bells, and education that teaches them how to think at all! But helping children want to learn is the critical thing, I believe; that way they can continue after high school has finished in whatever way suits them. For a big number, that will mean University, for others a vocational institute, for others it might just mean taking a night-school class to learn how to sew, or do basic maintenance on their car. Education is failing everyone when there are so many leaving school with no desire to keep on learning anything. Society is failing everyone when so many are leaving school with no ability to keep on learning anything (ability, as in being able to afford it).
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 1, 2023 15:11:00 GMT
KiwiJo said: Our ‘western’ cultures value some occupations above others, and often the less-valued are critical to the way that culture or society works and functions. I agree with most of your post. Thank you for taking the time to read mine and come together on where we have shared values. I want to address this point though. This may have been the way it was in the past, but in the US there is just as much thinking anymore that blue collar workers have some kind of "common man/common sense" superiority than do white collar workers. The student loan forgiveness debate has many of them coming right out of the woodwork to tell us just how unnecessary we are. How stupid we are for paying for educations that are "worthless" or not "valuable." The level of disdain right now for teachers is bordering on gross. It's far less of an Us vs. Them mentality from white collar workers (many of whom are liberal and advocating/voting for policy which lifts everyone) than it is coming from those with a lack of higher education. Now I don't know what triggered this uprising but IMO, the tables have turned.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 1, 2023 15:11:38 GMT
It's not just the parents. So many schools have impacted majors - if you aren't accepted freshman year, you're not getting in. It can be particularly true for higher income parents who aren't going to receive financial aid for private schools and really want to take advantage of excellent public schools in their state. We actually used the data on percentage to people who aren't in the same field as their degree to destress our kids. You're really NOT Picking what you're going to do for the rest of your life when you're choosing your degree. You can leverage a degree into way more different careers than people appreciate. Yes, I regularly remind my kid that my college majors have absolutely nothing to do with what i do now (or what I’ve ever done professionally). Maybe it’s just the time we’re at right now (beginning of sophomore year) and it seems everyone we know is hiring consultants and there’s so much pressure and it’s just crazy. Choosing a school was intense when i was growing up and now it feels easily 5x what i went through. It can be a really tough time - and peers can really add to the stress of the process. My son was pretty low key about it all, but my daughter was NOT and unfortunately most of her peers were all pretty stressed out about the entire process (a large portion of parents around here do hire consultants so am very familiar with that demographic). Adding in a competitive major makes it even more stressful. We know lots of friends/colleagues with kids trying to get into the UCs or UW as CS or engineering majors and it's rough. Then you have the top 10 or bust kids - it was infinitely more stressful than when I was a kid - but then I went to a high school with more drop outs than kids going to college, so perhaps my viewpoint is skewed.
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Post by monklady123 on Oct 1, 2023 15:26:43 GMT
Yes, I regularly remind my kid that my college majors have absolutely nothing to do with what i do now (or what I’ve ever done professionally). Maybe it’s just the time we’re at right now (beginning of sophomore year) and it seems everyone we know is hiring consultants and there’s so much pressure and it’s just crazy. Choosing a school was intense when i was growing up and now it feels easily 5x what i went through. It can be a really tough time - and peers can really add to the stress of the process. My son was pretty low key about it all, but my daughter was NOT and unfortunately most of her peers were all pretty stressed out about the entire process (a large portion of parents around here do hire consultants so am very familiar with that demographic). Adding in a competitive major makes it even more stressful. We know lots of friends/colleagues with kids trying to get into the UCs or UW as CS or engineering majors and it's rough. Then you have the top 10 or bust kids - it was infinitely more stressful than when I was a kid - but then I went to a high school with more drop outs than kids going to college, so perhaps my viewpoint is skewed. Definitely more stressful today than when we were kids. At least when us Dinosaurs were kids. I grew up in Pittsburgh, where if you weren't going to college you were going into the steel mills. And back then there were a lot of mills (they don't exist now) and those were excellent jobs. They paid well, provided insurance, etc. (thanks unions... ) You could provide for a family on the pay from a steel mill job. Today there are fewer jobs that don't require college.
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Post by Merge on Oct 1, 2023 15:50:28 GMT
KiwiJo i don't think anyone thinks a carpenter or a garbage collector is any less worthy than a lawyer. In fact I think we all serve a function in society and I think everyone deserves a living wage. (My own daughter is an electrical apprentice. I could go on a whole tangent though about what a fucking boys club it is and how much harassment she got at her last electrical job.) But that doesn't discount the need for higher level thinking, something I think we are seeing missing right now in a lot of Americans. Should everyone go to college? Probably not. Should everyone have a basic, comprehensive education that is college preparatory in nature? I think yes. Maybe you aren't seeing it from your country, but people in the US are having a hard time separating fact from fiction. The pandemic showed all of us the level of disdain for science. There is a distinct lack of respect for credentialed, educated professionals from teachers to scientific researchers. Do I think less of my DD who is going to be an electrician than I do of myself (with an MBA)? No. There's room for all of us. I was the very first person in my family to go to college. I love and respect a lot of people in my life who don't have anything beyond a high school diploma. My own husband, who I love and admire dearly, had to get a GED when he was 21 because he was a drop out. I think he is entitled to dignified work. But would all of these people have benefitted from a level of higher learning, most likely yes. A lot of them chose the professions they did because of lack of access to college. That I want changed. I don't think valuing higher education and wanting everyone to do continued learning = disrespect. And I hate how you seem to assume that those of us who want an intelligent society look down on others because of their occupation. It takes all of us to make this economy move. Ah, I apologise for not making part of my post clearer - it’s not that I believe individuals think lower paid workers, or workers of so-called menial tasks, are not worthy but society as a whole does so. Our ‘western’ cultures value some occupations above others, and often the less-valued are critical to the way that culture or society works and functions. In your first paragraph, you asked if everyone should go to college - I would say a straight-out No. I do not believe college or University level education is required for all jobs, or for all people. I would also say that society putting such pressure on everyone, or even on most high school students is doing them a disservice. I do absolutely agree with you though, that a basic and comprehensive education should be given to all children, and yes up to college preparatory level for everyone. Our education system in NZ is not particularly good IMO, and fails a lot of people. I would very much like to see all students up to (& including) high school get an education that makes them want to learn. That teaches them critical thinking. Hells bells, and education that teaches them how to think at all! But helping children want to learn is the critical thing, I believe; that way they can continue after high school has finished in whatever way suits them. For a big number, that will mean University, for others a vocational institute, for others it might just mean taking a night-school class to learn how to sew, or do basic maintenance on their car. Education is failing everyone when there are so many leaving school with no desire to keep on learning anything. Society is failing everyone when so many are leaving school with no ability to keep on learning anything (ability, as in being able to afford it). While school can do a lot to foster a love of learning, I think every teacher would agree that, for some kids, we can do everything short of lighting ourselves on fire at the front of the room and they just. don’t. care. Sometimes that’s because other, more basic needs aren’t being met (Maslow before Bloom’s). Sometimes it’s because they don’t have a home life that values and encourages learning. Sometimes it’s because that kind of learning simply doesn’t feel relevant and interesting to them. That’s why I do think kids around 15-16 should have the option to forego the 4x4 college prep classes in high school and study things that interest them. Even if they don’t know exactly what they want to do, most kids by that age can tell you which kind of classes they like better than others, or what they like to do outside of school that might translate to a career choice. They can start heading in the right direction instead of being turned off of further learning by being forced to take classes in subjects that don’t mean anything to them.
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Post by KiwiJo on Oct 1, 2023 16:31:19 GMT
[/quote]While school can do a lot to foster a love of learning, I think every teacher would agree that, for some kids, we can do everything short of lighting ourselves on fire at the front of the room and they just. don’t. care.
Sometimes that’s because other, more basic needs aren’t being met (Maslow before Bloom’s). Sometimes it’s because they don’t have a home life that values and encourages learning. Sometimes it’s because that kind of learning simply doesn’t feel relevant and interesting to them.
That’s why I do think kids around 15-16 should have the option to forego the 4x4 college prep classes in high school and study things that interest them. Even if they don’t know exactly what they want to do, most kids by that age can tell you which kind of classes they like better than others, or what they like to do outside of school that might translate to a career choice. They can start heading in the right direction instead of being turned off of further learning by being forced to take classes in subjects that don’t mean anything to them.[/quote]
You’re right! Children of any age, whose needs are not being met who or have a home life that doesn’t value learning are likely to find incredibly it tough to want to keep learning anything. This is very definitely part of our problems in NZ, and especially in big chunks of our biggest city (where I live). Both aspects, though often they go hand in hand. If a whole family’s needs are not met, then they are more likely to shun values such as learning.
I don’t know what 4x4 college prep classes are, but agree that classes that are actually relevant to the kids are vital. Some of our high schools in poorer socio-economic area in Auckland are doing a pretty good job at that these days. It remains to be seen how successful it is. One college, for example, has 3 compulsory subjects for Year 11 students (16 year olds mostly): English, Maths, General Science. The list of optionals is extensive and includes: Art, art design, accounting, building, computer science, culinary arts & design, dance, digital media & design, game development & robotics, hospitality, mechanical engineering, music, physical education, social studies, sports science, Maori heritage, various languages relevant to the ancestry of many of the students (and many more). I was pleasantly surprised when I looked it up just now.
One of the classes, in particular, stood out to me: Te Ao Maori. “In this course students will explore the Māori World in both historical and current contexts. The content will be drawn from a range of subjects which could include Media Studies, Sociology, Art History, History, Social Studies and Tikanga. Students will investigate Māori identities, culture, history and related perspectives. There will be some opportunity for students to select their areas of study, related to the Māori World, that interest them.” I would like to take that course myself!
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Post by smasonnc on Oct 1, 2023 22:58:01 GMT
I forgot how to diagram sentences long ago, but I was a writer and proofreader. I also think the many, many hours of instruction in cursive could have been spent teaching something more important. Anybody whose school system is overly reliant on standardized testing knows the "value" of rote memorization. It impedes critical thinking. We need to teach kids how to think, not just to memorize.
Just being able to recall information isn't as valuable as knowing what to do with the information unless you're on Jeopardy. Kids need to develop problem solving abilities, cultural experiences, and they need to learn life skills like how to manage money.
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Post by melanell on Oct 2, 2023 11:11:30 GMT
I have told my kids this for years. Whenever they need to study, I always suggest writing out key ideas/vocab or making flashcards. Typically just writing out the flash cards is enough to significantly help, and then they really don't need to spend much time using the flashcards. (My youngest has taken to writing out flash cards in pencil, then when the studying is done, he hands them over to me, and I erase them while watching TV at night & he just keeps reusing the same index cards for mulitple study sessions. ) I know for myself, anything I write down has far more chance of sticking in my head than something I read, hear, watch, or type out.
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Post by melanell on Oct 2, 2023 11:16:00 GMT
My last mortgage & car loan were both handwritten & we're currently waiting for closing on something else, and we have to go in to physically sign those papers, too.
My signature is absolutely legible and so are my kids'. DH's is a bit difficult, though. But his printing sucks, too, LOL!
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 2, 2023 15:34:54 GMT
It can be a really tough time - and peers can really add to the stress of the process. My son was pretty low key about it all, but my daughter was NOT and unfortunately most of her peers were all pretty stressed out about the entire process (a large portion of parents around here do hire consultants so am very familiar with that demographic). Adding in a competitive major makes it even more stressful. We know lots of friends/colleagues with kids trying to get into the UCs or UW as CS or engineering majors and it's rough. Then you have the top 10 or bust kids - it was infinitely more stressful than when I was a kid - but then I went to a high school with more drop outs than kids going to college, so perhaps my viewpoint is skewed. Definitely more stressful today than when we were kids. At least when us Dinosaurs were kids. I grew up in Pittsburgh, where if you weren't going to college you were going into the steel mills. And back then there were a lot of mills (they don't exist now) and those were excellent jobs. They paid well, provided insurance, etc. (thanks unions... ) You could provide for a family on the pay from a steel mill job. Today there are fewer jobs that don't require college. What drives me nuts are all the jobs that SAY they require a college degree that really shouldn’t. Over the years I would sometimes look at job postings in various fields and think, “Hmm, that might be something I could do/ wouldn’t hate doing” only to look at the job requirements and all would say applicants needed a four year degree. Really? For something like scoring tests, data entry, retail store assistant manager, I can’t even remember all of the positions that required a degree to just apply. While I don’t have a degree, I do have a wide range of life experience and previous work experience that would more than make up for it but I don’t think my résumé would make it past the circular file due to my lack of a BA so I wouldn’t even bother applying. I think that’s part of why so many companies have had issues with finding “qualified” employees in recent years, their stated qualifications don’t actually match up with the jobs they need filled.
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