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Post by scraphappyinjax on Jan 8, 2016 21:03:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 21:18:41 GMT
Let's not muddy the waters any more than they are and bring up/ compare this to Kurt Cobain and the Seattle PD. The county HAD motive to frame Avery. What was Averys motive to murder her ? 'In way over their heads' First off they should not have even been on this case at all period. Conflict of interest for starters. "Do something for the first time" um. they already put an innocent man in prison and got away with it for 18 years. They had 36 million reasons to think they could do it again I'm not comparing the 2, My point is that is there is a lot of corrupt departments out there. Avery had drawings and told inmates he was going to do to women exactly what he did to Teresa. No motive, he is just a sick, sick man. I realize they shouldn't have been on the case. I don't know what the explanation for that is. I don't feel he is as innocent as he seems. Jovi, have you read any information in regards to the other 4 potential suspects. They did not list the names, but there was one man in particular who had serious violence towards women AND who had access to Theresa and the property. Logic just does not support Steven having motive to kill her.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 21:33:16 GMT
After finishing the series and trying to research info on the internet out of my own curiosity, my personal opinion is that Steven Avery did not commit the murder (neither did Brendan).
I do think there are a couple of scenarios that I am just going to throw out there:
1) After finding a news report about other potential suspects, I believe one of Avery's brothers (guessing it was a brother as it did not list a name) that lived on the property, had prior instances of violence towards women. He was home at the time and his only other alibi is a relative who was leaving the property. No one else can account for his whereabouts. This person had motive and prior history.
2) Two other relatives claimed they were going hunting at the time of the murder. Could it be possible, that while hunting nearby, a stray bullet could have possibly struck Theresa? I know this sounds crazy, but just wondering. Knowing how much trouble they would get in, they burned her body and left things to look as though Steven did it as they knew the police would be out to get him. Crazy, I know...just a theory.
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Post by uksue on Jan 8, 2016 21:52:26 GMT
After finishing the series and trying to research info on the internet out of my own curiosity, my personal opinion is that Steven Avery did not commit the murder (neither did Brendan). I do think there are a couple of scenarios that I am just going to throw out there: 1) After finding a news report about other potential suspects, I believe one of Avery's brothers (guessing it was a brother as it did not list a name) that lived on the property, had prior instances of violence towards women. He was home at the time and his only other alibi is a relative who was leaving the property. No one else can account for his whereabouts. This person had motive and prior history. 2) Two other relatives claimed they were going hunting at the time of the murder. Could it be possible, that while hunting nearby, a stray bullet could have possibly struck Theresa? I know this sounds crazy, but just wondering. Knowing how much trouble they would get in, they burned her body and left things to look as though Steven did it as they knew the police would be out to get him. Crazy, I know...just a theory. Given the lack of evidence/motive against Avery, I don't think your theories are that crazy, to be honest! I really don't see why he would do this just prior to the payout he was expecting. Plus no one has explained ow he can have taken those two phone calls from his girl friend from her jail at the same time he was supposed to be rapidly mg, killing and burning this poor young woman. I don't take this crime lightly at all: I have mentioned on the pod before that my daughter was drugged, abducted and raped by three men 6 years ago at the start of her second year at University. I thank God every day that she was able to escape over a rear fence and that she wasn't seriously physically injured . She did have to take anti-HIV meds for months because of the area the men came from and their refusal to take a test ( the police in her case were criminal the other way- let the men leave the police station before investigations were completed and they fled back to their country of birth.)
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by stittsygirl on Jan 8, 2016 22:08:28 GMT
After finishing the series and trying to research info on the internet out of my own curiosity, my personal opinion is that Steven Avery did not commit the murder (neither did Brendan). I do think there are a couple of scenarios that I am just going to throw out there: 1) After finding a news report about other potential suspects, I believe one of Avery's brothers (guessing it was a brother as it did not list a name) that lived on the property, had prior instances of violence towards women. He was home at the time and his only other alibi is a relative who was leaving the property. No one else can account for his whereabouts. This person had motive and prior history. 2) Two other relatives claimed they were going hunting at the time of the murder. Could it be possible, that while hunting nearby, a stray bullet could have possibly struck Theresa? I know this sounds crazy, but just wondering. Knowing how much trouble they would get in, they burned her body and left things to look as though Steven did it as they knew the police would be out to get him. Crazy, I know...just a theory. Given the lack of evidence/motive against Avery, I don't think your theories are that crazy, to be honest! I really don't see why he would do this just prior to the payout he was expecting. Plus no one has explained ow he can have taken those two phone calls from his girl friend from her jail at the same time he was supposed to be rapidly mg, killing and burning this poor young woman. I don't take this crime lightly at all: I have mentioned on the pod before that my daughter was drugged, abducted and raped by three men 6 years ago at the start of her second year at University. I thank God every day that she was able to escape over a rear fence and that she wasn't seriously physically injured . She did have to take anti-HIV meds for months because of the area the men came from and their refusal to take a test ( the police in her case were criminal the other way- let the men leave the police station before investigations were completed and they fled back to their country of birth.) Wow. I'm so, so sorry your daughter had to go through that. I can't even imagine how heartbreaking and infuriating, both the attack and that the men were freed. I hope she's doing well now. My daughter is taking night classes right now at the local college. Even though I know she tries to do everything she should to remain safe on campus and driving home, I still don't breathe easy until she walks through the door every night.
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Post by jovifan on Jan 8, 2016 22:31:43 GMT
I'm not comparing the 2, My point is that is there is a lot of corrupt departments out there. Avery had drawings and told inmates he was going to do to women exactly what he did to Teresa. No motive, he is just a sick, sick man. I realize they shouldn't have been on the case. I don't know what the explanation for that is. I don't feel he is as innocent as he seems. Jovi, have you read any information in regards to the other 4 potential suspects. They did not list the names, but there was one man in particular who had serious violence towards women AND who had access to Theresa and the property. Logic just does not support Steven having motive to kill her. I have not actually. I do wonder if someone in the family did it. I have wondered that, esp with 2 brothers being so violent to their wives. I'll take a look this weekend!
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Post by jovifan on Jan 8, 2016 22:35:03 GMT
I believe Kratz just literally explained this on a yahoo news telephone conference over the noon hour today (CST). I couldn't hear it well as it was loud where I am but it sounds like it was not meant to be a documentary but was categorized something else. And I should have written it down so I could google what it was. Did anyone else catch that? There may be some story on it later as people publish it. I was curious if anyone heard it. The series was categorized as something else when it was filmed but I also can't remember what it was. It didn't receive the attention until they called a documentary. And didn't Kratz say Netflix told the people filming they (Netflix) wanted it considered a documentary? And Kratz today talking about this on yahoo news said that he has received threats and his office. I wonder what kind of office since I don't think he can practice law anymore
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stittsygirl
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Post by stittsygirl on Jan 8, 2016 23:00:17 GMT
The series was categorized as something else when it was filmed but I also can't remember what it was. It didn't receive the attention until they called a documentary. And didn't Kratz say Netflix told the people filming they (Netflix) wanted it considered a documentary? And Kratz today talking about this on yahoo news said that he has received threats and his office. I wonder what kind of office since I don't think he can practice law anymore Kratz is a defense attorney now. His resigned from his position as the Calumet county DA after his sexual harassment allegations were made public (they were kept on the down low for a year by his superiors). His license to practice was later suspended for four months. Now he has his own private practice. Just as Steven Avery's past behavior and character makes what he says or does suspect for many people, Ken Kratz' past behavior and character also makes what he says and does suspect for me. I'm interested to know what else MaM could be classified other than a documentary. It looks pretty much just the same as any other documentary I've seen, only longer. I don't know if length has bearing on classification.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 23:02:41 GMT
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Post by jovifan on Jan 8, 2016 23:17:29 GMT
I found an overview of what Kratz said today on Yahoo News....last paragraph is what I was talking about docu vs whatever he was saying....
The Wisconsin special prosecutor in the trials of Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey, Ken Kratz, told Yahoo Finance Anchor Alexis Christoforous on “Yahoo News Live” that he does not think the White House went far enough in its response to the online petition asking for the pardons of Avery and Dassey, who were convicted for the murder of 25-year-old Teresa Halbach. It is the case at the center of the Netflix documentary series “Making a Murderer,” which Kratz also blamed for death threats he and his family have received since its release.
On the White House response, Kratz told Christoforous, “I was a little disappointed that the decision seemed to be based on ‘we don’t have the ability to do it.’ I would have rather had the president support not only law enforcement and the victim’s family in this case.”
Kratz said his law office has received over 3,000 emails since the airing of the Netflix series. “Most of [the threats] are insulting, which certainly doesn’t bother me,” he said. “But what does is when a percentage of these individuals want to either interfere with my business, want to interfere with my safety, those of my staff, those of my family. When I get emails that suggest, ‘I hope your daughter gets raped and murdered.’ That’s the kind of response from the general public … I would suspect or at least the conclusion that came directly from this particular Netflix documentary.”
On concerns raised by a former Avery juror earlier this week on “Yahoo News Live” that the jury knew about news surrounding Avery and Dassey before the trials, including Dassey’s taped confession that was excluded from the Avery trial, Kratz said, “We want our jurors to be regular citizens. We want them to watch the news.”
He also pointed to the defense team wanting the jury to know about Avery’s lawsuit against Manitowoc County.
Kratz said he did not participate in the series because it “was originally a defense advocacy piece.” He said he asked the filmmakers to see the finished product before he participated in the film, but they would not let him do so.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 23:23:55 GMT
Him calling it a defense advocacy piece doesn't make it so, and does not appear to have been the filmmakers' intent.
Further, no filmmaker is going to let someone watch an incomplete documentary before they decide if they want to participate. Participants would invariably skew their comments to respond to what they saw.
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Post by jovifan on Jan 8, 2016 23:29:10 GMT
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Post by jovifan on Jan 8, 2016 23:30:12 GMT
Him calling it a defense advocacy piece doesn't make it so, and does not appear to have been the filmmakers' intent. Further, no filmmaker is going to let someone watch an incomplete documentary before they decide if they want to participate. Participants would invariably skew their comments to respond to what they saw. agreed, don't you need to participate before its a finished product??!
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Post by rainangel on Jan 8, 2016 23:33:51 GMT
I was actually crying when Brendan got his verdict and his mother was trying to leave the courthouse. After watching her son being interviewed the way he did, after that ridicoulus trial, my heart truly bleeds for Brendan and his mother. And the media following her.... I cried. What a horrible thing for a mother to experience. Not that I am trying to downplay the absolute and utter grief the Halbach's went through. There are NO winners in this case. Except MAYBE those who allegedly framed Steven. And I think they did. Not saying people from the police or any of the state's attorneys actually killed Teresa, but I believe they attempted to strengthen the case against Steven Avery.
And the judge at Steven's trial. I was dumbfounded towards the end of ep 9, when the judge was sentencing Steven. And he said that 'the crimes you have commited have only become worse' or something to that effect. WHAT CRIMES? Yes, he was just convicted of murder, but the judge spoke as if Steven had started out with rape, and then escaleted to murder. But Steven was proven innocent of rape. What crimes had Steven previously been convicted of that would make the judge see them as a starting off point, leading him to murder? Does anyone know? Someone said something about animal abuse?
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Post by uksue on Jan 8, 2016 23:45:26 GMT
Animal abuse and I think he ran a woman off the road. Was there also intimidation and domestic violence ?
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Post by jovifan on Jan 8, 2016 23:58:02 GMT
Animal abuse and I think he ran a woman off the road. Was there also intimidation and domestic violence ? Not according to Wisconsin Circuit Court website
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 0:16:42 GMT
According to Wikipedia
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 0:20:48 GMT
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stittsygirl
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Post by stittsygirl on Jan 9, 2016 0:21:34 GMT
Thank you, I was just about to post that too. I also believe there was another alleged sexual assault case pending investigation when Theresa Halbach was murdered. Yes, not a nice upstanding guy, but that still doesn't mean he killed Theresa. There were some other not nice guys on the property that day as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 0:26:53 GMT
Thank you, I was just about to post that too. I also believe there was another alleged sexual assault case pending investigation when Theresa Halbach was murdered. Yes, not a nice upstanding guy, but that still doesn't mean he killed Theresa. There were some other not nice guys on the property that day as well. Totally agree. I think it's entirely likely he did it, frankly, but I also think there should be a new trial. Our justice system needs to work better than that investigation and trial. However, I am completely opposed to these calls for pardoning (and am glad they have been shot down).
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Post by jovifan on Jan 9, 2016 0:34:29 GMT
Ahh...and the online records only go back to '93
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Post by tenacious on Jan 9, 2016 0:54:25 GMT
If I remember right, the burglary he comitted when he was young was very petty-it was like some beer and something else stupid like that. Not excusing him at all, but, it really did sound like some dumb stunt rather than a planned, calculated crime.
Erin
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Post by jovifan on Jan 9, 2016 1:31:44 GMT
If I remember right, the burglary he comitted when he was young was very petty-it was like some beer and something else stupid like that. Not excusing him at all, but, it really did sound like some dumb stunt rather than a planned, calculated crime. Erin I think it was also 2 cheese sandwiches. haha
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stittsygirl
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Post by stittsygirl on Jan 9, 2016 2:21:05 GMT
Avery now has Kathleen Zellner as his attorney. According to her Wiki, she's helped exonerate 17 wrongfully convicted men. It will be interesting to see what she's able to do, but honestly I wish Brendan Dassey was getting that caliber of representation instead. Maybe something similar is in the works for him.
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Post by beanbuddymom on Jan 9, 2016 2:43:05 GMT
From what I got from some browsing around the internet, Brendan has this group representing / helping him: www.law.northwestern.edu/legalclinic/wrongfulconvictionsyouth/From their site: "December 23, 2015 To the viewers of Making A Murderer: We, at the Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth, want to wish you a Happy Holiday season. We have received your many inquiries about Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey. It is important that you understand that we do not represent Steven Avery; we represent Brendan Dassey. As you know from watching the film, the evidence and the legal issues in the two cases are very different and we do not feel it is appropriate for us to respond to questions about Steven’s case. As for Brendan, we are thinking about ways in which you can be of use to Brendan and other juvenile suspects who are interrogated by the police. Unfortunately, Brendan’s interrogation experience is all too common for juveniles suspected of crimes. In our work, we have seen police officers routinely question youthful suspects as if they are adults. All too often, courts have enabled police by allowing them to not only to use coercive tactics to get suspects to confess but by letting police contaminate confessions through the kind of fact-feeding you saw in the film. We are trying to change police practices through our scholarship, our advocacy, and our casework. We have also co-written a guide with the International Association of Chiefs of Police entitled “Reducing Risks: An Executive’s Guide to Effective Interviewing and Interrogation of Juveniles”. For more information about our work, please feel free to peruse our website and the website of our parent organization -- the Center on Wrongful Convictions. Thank you for your support for Brendan. We are sharing with him your well wishes and will spend the holidays thinking more about ways for Making A Murderer watchers to assist Brendan." Their Action Agenda: www.law.northwestern.edu/legalclinic/wrongfulconvictionsyouth/resources/publications/documents/ACTION%20AGENDA%20FOR%20MAKING%20A%20MURDERER%20WATCHERS.pdf
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Post by 2peaornot2pea on Jan 9, 2016 4:45:22 GMT
mandolyn9909 I too think the same thing! I just finished watching episode 4. With what I have seen so far I believe both Brendon and Stephen to be innocent of these crimes. I am completely convinced Stephen was framed and watching the film of the interrogations it is clear Brendon was coerced into making every statement/confession he gave. And his defense attorney was HORRIBLE. I'm turning into a crazy woman, shouting out at the t.v. over some of the stuff I've seen so far. The dog thinks I'm crazy. I feel really sorry for the Avery's. They are poor, not well educated, and they all seem to be a bit learning disabled.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 8:43:51 GMT
After finishing the series and trying to research info on the internet out of my own curiosity, my personal opinion is that Steven Avery did not commit the murder (neither did Brendan). I do think there are a couple of scenarios that I am just going to throw out there: 1) After finding a news report about other potential suspects, I believe one of Avery's brothers (guessing it was a brother as it did not list a name) that lived on the property, had prior instances of violence towards women. He was home at the time and his only other alibi is a relative who was leaving the property. No one else can account for his whereabouts. This person had motive and prior history. 2) Two other relatives claimed they were going hunting at the time of the murder. Could it be possible, that while hunting nearby, a stray bullet could have possibly struck Theresa? I know this sounds crazy, but just wondering. Knowing how much trouble they would get in, they burned her body and left things to look as though Steven did it as they knew the police would be out to get him. Crazy, I know...just a theory. I don't take this crime lightly at all: I have mentioned on the pod before that my daughter was drugged, abducted and raped by three men 6 years ago at the start of her second year at University. I thank God every day that she was able to escape over a rear fence and that she wasn't seriously physically injured . She did have to take anti-HIV meds for months because of the area the men came from and their refusal to take a test ( the police in her case were criminal the other way- let the men leave the police station before investigations were completed and they fled back to their country of birth.) I am very very sorry for what happened to your daughter. I hope that she has been able to heal from such a terrible ordeal. I know that had to be incredibly difficult for you as well. I am terribly sorry.
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Post by arielsmom on Jan 9, 2016 13:16:47 GMT
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junior
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Dec 27, 2015 23:58:02 GMT
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Post by junior on Jan 9, 2016 14:28:52 GMT
The mom/daughter team were related to the Halbachs - cousins I believe. The mom was also a private investigator herself. Why the car location appears hinky to some is because it was located in an area where it was found relatively easily, once the searchers had permission to go on the lot. It also looked like someone had tried to disguise it with a few branches and an old car hood on it, but that just made it stand out more from the cars around it. It's plausible, if you believe in the framing theory, that someone may have found the car a couple of days earlier in another location (like when Colburn called those plates in the first day Theresa was reported missing), then planted the car on the Avery property sometime in the night in a way that made it pretty easy to pick out. The Avery blood evidence inside the car could have also been planted in that time period. The vial of Avery's blood that was kept at the county offices wasn't secured well, and no log or security camera video was kept to determine who had broken the evidence seals and accessed it. It really could go either way - Avery (or whomever murdered Theresa) did a horrible job hiding the car before he could render it unrecognizeable, or it was purposely moved there by someone else to put the focus on Avery. There was also a statement by someone, can't remember who, that the woman who found it had commented that she heard from a police officer that that the car was in the junkyard. That was stated during the trial when she testified and Avery's lawyer asked her why she was given a camera that day but others who were also searching weren't. She was the only searcher given a camera. And why wouldn't Avery just crush the car. He has a crusher. If he is smart enough to leave a pristine crime scene but leave blood evidence in a car on his property. It doesn't make sense. His business is car crushing. It would make more sense to have the car destroyed and some evidence (real not planted) at the "kill site".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 16:54:39 GMT
Interesting information, but almost all of this was in the documentary. Let et me throw this out there.... It's well known that some sexual predators start off flashing victims before making the leap to more violent acts. I was surprised at how similar looking Greg Allen and Steven Avery were to each other. Both were bushy, unkept men. Could it not be possible that it was Allen flashing his cousin? I mean, if you are driving by and are not close to the person, would you really be able to tell the difference? I do not dispute that Steven went after his cousin, that was discussed in the documentary. IIRK, he said he did because she said he was going around flashing people and that was not true. Agreed that he was a wackadoodle for confronting her in such a manner. As as to the torture chamber, that was told to be heresay since there were no documents or witnesses to prove otherwise.
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