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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 15:36:58 GMT
I'll first say that I'm a strong, driven, INTJ woman. I have these two friends, they're sisters. We try to get together for coffee once a week. We always laugh, share our pains, and The occasional gossip. I'd say they're my only close friends other than my sister and husband. There's been a few times where I questioned if they felt the same about me. My DH is wary just because of a few incidents where he feels they showed their colours. My one friend has an undiagnosed disorder of some kind, one day she'll say "she loves basil", a week later she denies ever having said it. Or she'll claim so and so said this when I know for a fact they didn't. This kind of stuff happens all the time and is why I give her the benefit of the doubt. We go to the same church, and have for years. I took a break from volunteer work in the church but made the decision to jump back in 2 years ago. I became the director of our kids education committee. I am also the director of a kids summer program. I'm just going to be honest, I am respected for my quality of work. My brain is wired to come up with bigger and better ideas, I have strong organizational skills and I am a logical thinker. I make mistakes, I own up to them. We've had so many church members compliment our committee for our progress. My friends have been notably silent, there was even a few times where I almost felt like they were trying to sabotage some of our events but I've always brushed it off as me being crazy for even thinking that. I also just took on a part time job being the only church secretary with administration duties. It's a paid position with great pay. I was told by many that I was perfect for the job, even by those I didn't think cared for me very much. Both of my volunteer positions are very involved, but I've made a strong effort to keep our weekly coffee dates. I knew my friends would be intimidated by me being in those positions but Hoped we could get past that. My friend ignored me for a few months, and I kept plugging along, trying to instigate coffee dates, trying to show them that me being "boss" didn't mean squat in our friendship. I didn't want to let the friendship go. And we did get back to a good place, with weekly coffee dates. Today I found out my friend ran me down to a small group of women in church. It hurts to think that she said what she said, and had no basis for her comment, none. And it wasn't directed at something we were doing, it was an obvious put down directed at me. I know being in a prominent church position opens you up to criticism, but normally there's at least a reason for the criticism and it's not coming from a close friend, and not behind your back. With me being an INTJ, it's not easy for me to make friends. I don't fit in with your typical female personality. My DH thinks I need to move on, there's been so many small things that raised doubt regarding my friends but I've always tried to excuse them. I don't know anymore. Logically I know I need to walk away. I was witness to them tearing down their new SIL (who happens to be my DH's sister) with completely false garbage. I know that if they do that to her, they do it to me. Sorry that got really long. Do any of you struggle with not knowing if your friendships are real? Sorry, I haven't read all the replies yet. My take on this is that these girls are NOT your close friends. I think your DH is right, you need to move on from them. You seem to have more stake in this than they do. Cut your losses, look for friends elsewhere. Friends do not talk behind your back.
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Post by Merge on Apr 11, 2016 15:38:04 GMT
This thread makes me sad and angry. A woman speaks with confidence about herself and her job and other women cut her down "how dare you speak confidently!" Pretend like the OP is a man and read it again. I see your point, but a man would never be wondering on a message board if his friends were really his friends. And I'd feel much the same about a guy who styled himself the "boss" and felt his friends were intimidated by him because of a clerical job at church.
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Post by jemali on Apr 11, 2016 15:40:52 GMT
My one friend has an undiagnosed disorder of some kind, one day she'll say "she loves basil", a week later she denies ever having said it. Or she'll claim so and so said this when I know for a fact they didn't. This kind of stuff happens all the time and is why I give her the benefit of the doubt. I think the diagnosis is that she tells lies. Why would you give her the benefit of the doubt when she does this over and over again? I am afraid I would have to agree that these women are not your friends. It sounds like you will still have contact with them via your church and your dh's family so I would remain cordial but not try to be close to them.
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Post by gypsymama on Apr 11, 2016 15:52:50 GMT
This thread makes me sad and angry. A woman speaks with confidence about herself and her job and other women cut her down "how dare you speak confidently!" Pretend like the OP is a man and read it again. Exactly what I came to say!! The peas get so bent out of shape if anyone comments on a woman's size or whatever but then shred one our own like this??
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 15:53:53 GMT
You do sound as if you have a healthy ego, although I think the vilifying you are getting on this thread is a little over the top. Maybe some self-examination about how you present yourself to others is in order.
These women are in no way friends. That's not how friends act. I'm surprised you haven't cut them loose sooner. Life is too short.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 16:06:44 GMT
I think that the whole post could have been boiled down to:
I have some friends from church that don't seem to want to be as close and perhaps even may have gossiped about me since I took on a paid part-time role at our church.
The answer might be in the rest of your post.
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StephDRebel
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Post by StephDRebel on Apr 11, 2016 16:09:18 GMT
Some people just suck. My best friend of over 20 years tore me AND my family down to someone else a week after my wedding (she was moh).
I felt like it was my job to believe her when she accidentally told me exactly who she was and how she felt and terminated the friendship.
I'm loyal and protective and deserve the same from my relationships. Honestly, even if I hadn't been able to fill that void I'd be better off. Work on finding real friends, they exist.
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Post by mrssmith on Apr 11, 2016 16:11:26 GMT
I'd give the friendship a break. It seems like they did for a while until you continued to push it. I would be annoyed that they were also badmouthing your SIL to you.
Why are you "boss"? Do they serve on these committees?
PS: I'm also an INTJ with similar qualities.I am good at my jobs (professional and volunteer). I agree with the above that men are not looked down on if they say that. It took me a long time to be able to do so. Do I go around saying I'm so great? No, and I suspect you don't either.
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Post by mcscrapper on Apr 11, 2016 16:14:58 GMT
This thread makes me sad and angry. A woman speaks with confidence about herself and her job and other women cut her down "how dare you speak confidently!" Pretend like the OP is a man and read it again. I totally get what you are saying. I would say the same things to a man that I wrote to the OP. If you act like you are arrogant and even use the words "my friends would be intimidated by me," you will get the same response from me whether you are a man or woman. I appreciate anyone that is confident, even assertive and straightforward but I do not like to be around arrogance and people who gossip as the OP stated she does.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Apr 11, 2016 16:17:20 GMT
This thread makes me sad and angry. A woman speaks with confidence about herself and her job and other women cut her down "how dare you speak confidently!" Pretend like the OP is a man and read it again. Exactly what I came to say!! The peas get so bent out of shape if anyone comments on a woman's size or whatever but then shred one our own like this?? I can totally understand the OPs point of view, being a highly introverted person myself. And I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt with the rest of the post: I'm thinking she's not 'boasting' so much as explaining her strengths, explaining the course of events that happened (and her strengths that led to the job at the church) and that she's wondering if the chain of events has changed the other women's viewpoint of her. Even so, what the heck is wrong with talking about what you're good at? Women have historically been in the background, seen but not heard, etc. and doing all the work pleasing everyone else. Is it really so wrong to discuss our strengths and be proud of our accomplishments? If we do, we're seen as boastful? But men can do it all day long and they're seen as powerful or good businesspeople, right? We can't talk about someone else, but we can't talk about ourselves, either?? Unless it relates to how long you're in labor, or something else 'female-oriented' like that? I agree with Freebird; that's bullshit. Anyway, back to the OP and her question: from what you wrote, it doesn't sound like they're really very good friends. And as someone else said-- they're sisters, so the relationship between the two of them will always be closer than the relationship between the three of you. It's tough to make close friends as adults in general and as an introvert myself, I think the introverted personality makes it even tougher. (as an aside, I find it kind of surprising so many people here haven't heard of those personality descriptors and those personality tests. Maybe it's related to having worked for a couple big corporations through the 1990s,though, because years ago we had to do those kind of personality tests for work as part of working better together as a group in our department.)
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Post by Sparki on Apr 11, 2016 16:28:37 GMT
This thread makes me sad and angry. A woman speaks with confidence about herself and her job and other women cut her down "how dare you speak confidently!" Pretend like the OP is a man and read it again. I agree with this. The OP spoke like many successful business people that I have been around and worked with.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 16:35:50 GMT
If you act like you are arrogant and even use the words "my friends would be intimidated by me," you will get the same response from me whether you are a man or woman. I'd feel exactly the same if it was a man talking, I don't know where this notion comes from that men can brag all day and people think they're great.
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Post by pierkiss on Apr 11, 2016 16:42:25 GMT
This thread makes me sad and angry. A woman speaks with confidence about herself and her job and other women cut her down "how dare you speak confidently!" Pretend like the OP is a man and read it again. I would say the same things I said to her to a dude. Probably with vitriol because I hate it when men are often overly arrogant.
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luckyexwife
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Post by luckyexwife on Apr 11, 2016 16:42:52 GMT
So what does INTJ mean?
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Country Ham
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Post by Country Ham on Apr 11, 2016 16:45:39 GMT
This thread makes me sad and angry. A woman speaks with confidence about herself and her job and other women cut her down "how dare you speak confidently!" Pretend like the OP is a man and read it again. I agree with this. The OP spoke like many successful business people that I have been around and worked with. Things is, she is talking about volunteer positions within a church, and a part time secretarial position within the same. Not in the business world. These positions she describes is one of servitude. It's not a "I am the boss" or "I am going to intimidate my friends" type of thing. My husband is the senior pastor and trust me he works for the church and doesn't even consider himself a boss. We don't have a secretary but if we did the secretary would work FOR the members of the church not a boss of anyone. I am the unofficial person the children's teachers come to for direction, new materials etc. I am not a boss but a fellow servant. If this was small business, an office etc I can see this attitude, one that is often needed to advance, but in a church? If anyone had the "I am boss" attitude they would probably lose their position pretty quickly. Whoever is great amongst us let him be a servant. Plus don't forget. She was perfectly OK with sitting and gossiping with these friends every week BEFORE she took this job and BEFORE she was the subject of the gossip. The bible warns folks about the dangers of this. I am just saying I am not willing to speak out in a negative way about these sister friends for acting no differently then what was acceptable not long ago by the OP. I think if the OP had been somewhat humble about her own part in this change of attitude and repentant about her own behaviors I would feel different.
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Post by papersilly on Apr 11, 2016 16:51:15 GMT
after reading your post, the first word that came into my head was "FRIENEMIES". not a real word I know but that seems to be what you have with these women.
if you are constantly having to try to keep the friendship up or you question the sincerity of the friendship, maybe it's time to move on.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Apr 11, 2016 17:10:04 GMT
^^^ look here: Wikipedia, Meyers-Briggs (personality) Type indicator. The letters are how a person identifies themselves based on certain personality traits. Your personality type is determined by how you answer a series of questions. "The 16 [personality] types are typically referred to by an abbreviation of four letters—the initial letters of each of their four type preferences (except in the case of intuition, which uses the abbreviation "N" to distinguish it from introversion). For instance: ESTJ: extraversion (E), sensing (S), thinking (T), judgment (J) INFP: introversion (I), intuition (N), feeling (F), perception (P)" So INTJ means the person identifies as: Introversion (I), Intuitive (N), Thinking (T), and Judgment (J) based on their answers to the personality-type test.
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anniebygaslight
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Post by anniebygaslight on Apr 11, 2016 17:14:27 GMT
This thread makes me sad and angry. A woman speaks with confidence about herself and her job and other women cut her down "how dare you speak confidently!" Pretend like the OP is a man and read it again. I would say the same things I said to her to a dude. Probably with vitriol because I hate it when men are often overly arrogant. Me too.
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Peamac
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Post by Peamac on Apr 11, 2016 17:15:21 GMT
I'm thinking she's not 'boasting' so much as explaining her strengths, explaining the course of events that happened (and her strengths that led to the job at the church) and that she's wondering if the chain of events has changed the other women's viewpoint of her.
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Post by cindyupnorth on Apr 11, 2016 17:47:58 GMT
This thread makes me sad and angry. A woman speaks with confidence about herself and her job and other women cut her down "how dare you speak confidently!" Pretend like the OP is a man and read it again. I would say the same things I said to her to a dude. Probably with vitriol because I hate it when men are often overly arrogant. Me too. ahhh!! for sure!! and WTH MAN would tell someone their personality test/traits???!! That's just odd.
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marianne
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Post by marianne on Apr 11, 2016 18:04:18 GMT
Walk away. I wouldn't consider them friends. Friends have your back...they don't try to put a knife in it. Based on what you've written and without injecting any armchair analysis, I'd be looking elsewhere for friendship.
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Post by Zee on Apr 11, 2016 18:08:52 GMT
I don't really want to be friends with someone who can't separate truth from fiction, to be honest. Sounds like a pair of gossipy church weirdos.
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Post by peasapie on Apr 11, 2016 18:25:50 GMT
I think what you're saying is that you are a perfectionist and a high achiever and your friends are jealous. Is that right? And your final question was: "Do any of you struggle with not knowing if your friendships are real?"
My answer is no, not any more. But there was a time in my life when I didn't trust my instincts on that question. As time has gone on, I've learned to trust my gut, and your gut (and the evidence) is clearly telling you that these two women aren't truly your friends. As Maya Angelou said, “When someone shows you who they are, believe them; the first time.”
There are strong women and men out there for you to be friends with, people who won't be intimidated by a friend's success and who will encourage you to achieve more, rather than less.
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J u l e e
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Post by J u l e e on Apr 11, 2016 18:38:55 GMT
I'm surprised so many people are unfamiliar with Meyers-Briggs, and/or people referencing their personality type.
There was a thread here not long ago stressing how women should be able to name their positive characteristics and what they're good at, or is special about them (something like that). We talk about building each other up, but when someone knows and speaks of her own strengths she gets told she's full of herself or overly confident.
We also hate when we don't get enough details, but tear down a post with too many. It's a message board. We don't "know" the poster or have any familiarity with the situation. She's just giving us background. I think it comes across differently in writing than it would it it were a conversation.
Signed, ISTJ
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Post by not2peased on Apr 11, 2016 18:48:41 GMT
This thread makes me sad and angry. A woman speaks with confidence about herself and her job and other women cut her down "how dare you speak confidently!" Pretend like the OP is a man and read it again. I am generally known by friends, family and coworkers as a very confident person and have been classified by some as "intimidating" I have no issue with someone feeling good about what they do and being confident in their abilities. however....I simply wouldn't describe myself or my job the way the OP has-it sounds boastful and overly self aggrandizing. IME it's mostly men who display this annoying trait, and believe me, it's annoying, regardless of the sex of the person doing it.
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Post by magentapea on Apr 11, 2016 18:51:57 GMT
I was witness to them tearing down their new SIL (who happens to be my DH's sister) with completely false garbage. I know that if they do that to her, they do it to me.
Sorry that got really long. Do any of you struggle with not knowing if your friendships are real? ========================= So, you let them berate their SIL, who happens to be your SIL? Did I read that correctly? What, if anything, did you do when this was happening? If you sat by and ignored it, or worse yet, took part in it, then you are no better than they are. But, to answer the original question, no, I don't question whether or not my friendships are real. You want to know why I know my friendships are real? Because we have been there for each other through good times and bad. We have a mutual respect for one another and don't think any of us are better than the other. We consider ourselves equals in life/work/friendship. Some of my friends are very successful business owners, some are stay at home moms, some are married for decades and some are divorced for just as long - but we all respect each other and don't think of ourselves as being "above" each other. Oh, and BTW, holding the position of church secretary and director of volunteer committees doesn't make you someone's "boss."
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Post by not2peased on Apr 11, 2016 18:56:54 GMT
I'm surprised so many people are unfamiliar with Meyers-Briggs, and/or people referencing their personality type. There was a thread here not long ago stressing how women should be able to name their positive characteristics and what they're good at, or is special about them (something like that). We talk about building each other up, but when someone knows and speaks of her own strengths she gets told she's full of herself or overly confident. We also hate when we don't get enough details, but tear down a post with too many. It's a message board. We don't "know" the poster or have any familiarity with the situation. She's just giving us background. I think it comes across differently in writing than it would it it were a conversation. Signed, ISTJ I am familiar with personality testing- but since there are eleventy-billion different types of assessment tools out there, and all kinds of acronyms to explain each , I admit to not remembering all of the different types of personality types, the acronyms they use, and what each assessment "means" I figured the OP was referencing some type of personality "type" but to expect regular, everyday people to know what you mean when referring to what "type" you are, using an acronym? nope, not gonna remember and likely won't care enough to research to jog my memory. IMO, it's incumbent upon the person posting to ensure that they are understood-it's not up to "us" the collective audience to research what obscure thing the OP is referring to. I get that sometimes, when conveying something, you can't do it in such a way that the average, viewing public can understand without losing some of the meaning, but I don't think that was the case with the OP. her use of the obscure acronym added to the overly "precious" feeling of her post.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Apr 11, 2016 19:02:16 GMT
I actually found the OP identifying herself as INTJ helpful. INTJ really struggle with navigating interpersonal relationships. They often don't understand nuances and struggle with how their own actions are perceived. OP - FYI - very, very rarely are friendships negatively impacted by someone doing a good job. You skills are really irrelevant to your relationship with these women. IMO either they're are not interested in hanging out with you as they are uncomfortable gossiping with someone who now works for the church - or they're perceiving you as being "braggy" about your new jobs. There is a non-trivial subset of individuals who really dislike people who are arrogant. You can moderate your behavior, or find individuals who are less sensitive. I am an INTJ - but barely an I - I have strong ENTJ tendancies. My husband is an INTJ and so is my son. My daughter on the other hand is an ENFP. I had to really learn to moderate my tendency to see everything as black and white. I found myself too often really hurting her feelings over really inconsequential stuff. Understanding how people perceive things differently has really helped me. I look back at my 20 year old self and wish I could tell myself to pick my battles and I didn't have to blow up so many relationships because they didn't see things my way. INTJ often will dig in their heels to be right, even at the cost of other people's feelings. I still know I'm right - but now I realize that I don't have to convince everyone of that fact
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Post by lisacharlotte on Apr 11, 2016 19:10:21 GMT
This thread makes me sad and angry. A woman speaks with confidence about herself and her job and other women cut her down "how dare you speak confidently!" Pretend like the OP is a man and read it again. I would feel the same if a man wrote the same scenario. She sounds boastful, not confident. Confidence doesn't require one to tell everyone how great they are. It's assumed others figure it out by your obvious awesomeness. I'm afraid her whole description of herself was off putting and sounded like she's trying to convince herself how great she is.
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Country Ham
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Post by Country Ham on Apr 11, 2016 19:13:01 GMT
We talk about building each other up, but when someone knows and speaks of her own strengths she gets told she's full of herself or overly confident. But when you are asking about relationship advice these things come into play. Particularly with relationships with other women/friends. My issues were not with describing her own strengths. It was saying it was the I am the boss, I will intimidate them type of things. Will having the confidence of pastors, knowledge of the inner workings of a church as the secretary change her relationships with the other women in the church? Quite possibly to more then likely. But words like intimidation and boss are in a whole other category. Over time her perception of the church will probably change too. I had things I got annoyed with in my old church. Then once I joined the leadership I saw things from a different perspective and some friends thought of it as a us vs them thing. Now 20 years removed from that church, and the wife of the pastor/preacher I see things so differently then I used to as well. Different stages in life brings different views of life it's just being careful not to look down at others, especially friends, a long the way.
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