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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 5:40:24 GMT
I'll first say that I'm a strong, driven, INTJ woman.
I have these two friends, they're sisters. We try to get together for coffee once a week. We always laugh, share our pains, and The occasional gossip. I'd say they're my only close friends other than my sister and husband.
There's been a few times where I questioned if they felt the same about me. My DH is wary just because of a few incidents where he feels they showed their colours. My one friend has an undiagnosed disorder of some kind, one day she'll say "she loves basil", a week later she denies ever having said it. Or she'll claim so and so said this when I know for a fact they didn't. This kind of stuff happens all the time and is why I give her the benefit of the doubt.
We go to the same church, and have for years. I took a break from volunteer work in the church but made the decision to jump back in 2 years ago. I became the director of our kids education committee. I am also the director of a kids summer program. I'm just going to be honest, I am respected for my quality of work. My brain is wired to come up with bigger and better ideas, I have strong organizational skills and I am a logical thinker. I make mistakes, I own up to them. We've had so many church members compliment our committee for our progress. My friends have been notably silent, there was even a few times where I almost felt like they were trying to sabotage some of our events but I've always brushed it off as me being crazy for even thinking that.
I also just took on a part time job being the only church secretary with administration duties. It's a paid position with great pay. I was told by many that I was perfect for the job, even by those I didn't think cared for me very much.
Both of my volunteer positions are very involved, but I've made a strong effort to keep our weekly coffee dates. I knew my friends would be intimidated by me being in those positions but Hoped we could get past that. My friend ignored me for a few months, and I kept plugging along, trying to instigate coffee dates, trying to show them that me being "boss" didn't mean squat in our friendship. I didn't want to let the friendship go. And we did get back to a good place, with weekly coffee dates.
Today I found out my friend ran me down to a small group of women in church.
It hurts to think that she said what she said, and had no basis for her comment, none. And it wasn't directed at something we were doing, it was an obvious put down directed at me. I know being in a prominent church position opens you up to criticism, but normally there's at least a reason for the criticism and it's not coming from a close friend, and not behind your back.
With me being an INTJ, it's not easy for me to make friends. I don't fit in with your typical female personality. My DH thinks I need to move on, there's been so many small things that raised doubt regarding my friends but I've always tried to excuse them. I don't know anymore. Logically I know I need to walk away. I was witness to them tearing down their new SIL (who happens to be my DH's sister) with completely false garbage. I know that if they do that to her, they do it to me.
Sorry that got really long. Do any of you struggle with not knowing if your friendships are real?
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,394
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Apr 11, 2016 5:51:55 GMT
Rum sort of religion if it is the norm for people bitch about one another. Find yourself some new outlets away from the church and make new friends.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 6:02:13 GMT
Our church doesn't claim to have perfect people, we have issues just like anyone else. I just thought my friends would have my back, KWIM?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 6:20:08 GMT
Filtering through some of your language, it may be that you are part of the problem.
Maybe your DH knows best in this situation.
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Post by ExpatBackHome on Apr 11, 2016 6:49:38 GMT
If a friend doesn't treat me how I want to be treated we are no longer friends. I treat others the way I want to be treated. Life's too short to spend time with people that treat you like crap. I don't believe everything I hear though. If you KNOW your friend is talking bad about you, I wouldn't be friends with them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 6:54:02 GMT
It sounds like none of you think highly of each other. I can't see any benefit in continuing this friendship. They're talking behind your back, you're talking behind their backs. What did you hear they said? Could there be any truth to it? Honestly,(and it's hard to read sometimes so I could be off base) the way things are worded seems that you may have been a bit condescending with them. I can't see your friendship being of benefit to them or vice versa.
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craftykitten
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,304
Jun 26, 2014 7:39:32 GMT
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Post by craftykitten on Apr 11, 2016 7:31:53 GMT
I don't think it has to do with a friendship being 'real'. If people are talking about me behind my back, they are not my friends any more. I would stop pursuing this friendship.
I had to look up INTJ because I'm not familiar with all of that stuff...just be careful that your drive to succeed is not pushing people away. You need people to work with you.
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Post by gar on Apr 11, 2016 8:39:05 GMT
Honestly, it doesn't sound as if it's more than a superficial friendship from what you've written. I'd move on if it was me.
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lesley
Drama Llama
My best friend Turriff, desperately missed.
Posts: 7,171 
Location: Scotland, Scotland, Scotland
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Post by lesley on Apr 11, 2016 9:29:09 GMT
TBH, it doesn't sound to me as though there is much of a friendship there. From what you have said, you seem to do all of the running, and I'm not sure what you're getting out of it.
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Post by pelirroja on Apr 11, 2016 9:41:21 GMT
You've been chasing after the friendship: you care way more about maintaining it while she's already (emotionally) bailed out. I'm unclear as to why your friends should compliment you for your bigger and better ideas, skills, and abilities, or why they would feel intimidated by you. Friendships don't usually work like that. Whatever the case, a big part of your life revolves around church so maybe you should expand your social circle a little wider and find some friends outside of church.
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Post by christine58 on Apr 11, 2016 10:00:41 GMT
What us INTJ??? Yet another new acronym for something??? I don't think the three of you are really friends with each other. I'd have ended it the first time one of them said something bad about my SIL. I also don't see what your "prominent" church position is??? No offense but you sound like you think you're better than them....it's a bad friendship all the way around. ETA: I just looked it up. Someone test you and come up with the INTJ??? Seriously why do we label everything and everyone? I'm thinking you are also part of the problem in this friendship. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 10:51:16 GMT
Plain and simple, it's just not working out. It almost sounds like you want this friendship because somewhere, somehow it makes you feel superior. You want to feel important, be important. That is what I get from your post. You use words to make yourself sound more important than you really are. The "only" secretary? Most churches only have one as it is unless you're a part of a mega church. You're a director of two programs (unpaid). You have awesome skills that supposedly no one else has.
At least one has checked out. At least one of them talks about people behind their backs. You know they've done it to you. How is that a friendship? A real friend would defend you before they talk shit about you.
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Post by pierkiss on Apr 11, 2016 11:34:40 GMT
I don't think they want to be friends with you. What exactly did she say to this other group of women? Honestly I'd be done at this point.
I will just say that you sound very boastful in your post. It's not a big deal, but if this is how you talk about yourself to the other people then I can see how it would rub some people the wrong way. I just don't think these people are your people.
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YooHoot
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,417
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Post by YooHoot on Apr 11, 2016 11:53:44 GMT
Walk away. I wouldn't consider them friends. Friends have your back...they don't try to put a knife in it.
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Post by Florida Cindy on Apr 11, 2016 12:14:50 GMT
I also had to discover the meaning of an INTJ personality. You sound like me, before I was diagnosed with an illness. You see and feel things differently than others. You know your personality and strive to live up to your and other's expectations. You enjoy achieving, over and over again. There isn't a wrong or right to your personality. However, others don't see it that way. Especially those with low self esteem who have to gossip behind other's back. I can tell you what I've learned: 2 sisters. It's rare on can be friends with two sisters as the 3rd wheel. People are jealous of what you have done and what you can do. It's why they gossip. I recently became involved with our small city. I've heard a ton of gossip about a lot of people. Instead of trying to identify why someone would behave in a way described in the gossip, I decided to approach people as if I hadn't heard anything about that person. It gives me a "fresh" perspective with that person regarding volunteer duties. With your personality type, your first priority is to successfully complete the tasks/job where you volunteer and where you work. It's where you are happy in your own skin. You can develop friendships with others like you or who are mature. The two sisters are not treating you like a friend. Would you treat them that way? No? Then, I'd EXPLAIN why you don't want to be friends and end the friendship. EXPLAIN their behavior, how it made you feel and your boundaries regarding friendship. (IE:you refuse to be the gossip of your friends). Then, hang up or walk away. If they approach you, treat them cordially and engage in only business regarding the church. I think you'd be a great friend. With your skills, you could independently motivate those like you, w/o knowing it.  |
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,313
Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Apr 11, 2016 12:15:30 GMT
I'll first say that I'm a strong, driven, INTJ woman. I have these two friends, they're sisters. We try to get together for coffee once a week. We always laugh, share our pains, and The occasional gossip. I'd say they're my only close friends other than my sister and husband. There's been a few times where I questioned if they felt the same about me. My DH is wary just because of a few incidents where he feels they showed their colours. My one friend has an undiagnosed disorder of some kind, one day she'll say "she loves basil", a week later she denies ever having said it. Or she'll claim so and so said this when I know for a fact they didn't. This kind of stuff happens all the time and is why I give her the benefit of the doubt. We go to the same church, and have for years. I took a break from volunteer work in the church but made the decision to jump back in 2 years ago. I became the director of our kids education committee. I am also the director of a kids summer program. I'm just going to be honest, I am respected for my quality of work. My brain is wired to come up with bigger and better ideas, I have strong organizational skills and I am a logical thinker. I make mistakes, I own up to them. We've had so many church members compliment our committee for our progress. My friends have been notably silent, there was even a few times where I almost felt like they were trying to sabotage some of our events but I've always brushed it off as me being crazy for even thinking that. I also just took on a part time job being the only church secretary with administration duties. It's a paid position with great pay. I was told by many that I was perfect for the job, even by those I didn't think cared for me very much. Both of my volunteer positions are very involved, but I've made a strong effort to keep our weekly coffee dates. I knew my friends would be intimidated by me being in those positions but Hoped we could get past that. My friend ignored me for a few months, and I kept plugging along, trying to instigate coffee dates, trying to show them that me being "boss" didn't mean squat in our friendship. I didn't want to let the friendship go. And we did get back to a good place, with weekly coffee dates. Today I found out my friend ran me down to a small group of women in church. It hurts to think that she said what she said, and had no basis for her comment, none. And it wasn't directed at something we were doing, it was an obvious put down directed at me. I know being in a prominent church position opens you up to criticism, but normally there's at least a reason for the criticism and it's not coming from a close friend, and not behind your back. With me being an INTJ, it's not easy for me to make friends. I don't fit in with your typical female personality. My DH thinks I need to move on, there's been so many small things that raised doubt regarding my friends but I've always tried to excuse them. I don't know anymore. Logically I know I need to walk away. I was witness to them tearing down their new SIL (who happens to be my DH's sister) with completely false garbage. I know that if they do that to her, they do it to me. Sorry that got really long. Do any of you struggle with not knowing if your friendships are real? What is INTJ? What is typical female behavior? Boss? You are a volunteer at church and a part time secretary. Where is boss in any of this? I will say your post seems to have this "I am better then my friends" attitude and if you come across like that in your interactions with them it could be off putting. I know my friendships are real because there are ups and downs and good times, and difficult times but we are real with each other. |
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Post by Florida Cindy on Apr 11, 2016 12:17:44 GMT
I also had to discover the meaning of an INTJ personality. You sound like me, before I was diagnosed with an illness. You see and feel things differently than others. You know your personality and strive to live up to your and other's expectations. You enjoy achieving, over and over again. There isn't a wrong or right to your personality. However, others don't see it that way. Especially those with low self esteem who have to gossip behind other's back. I can tell you what I've learned: 2 sisters. It's rare on can be friends with two sisters as the 3rd wheel. People are jealous of what you have done and what you can do. It's why they gossip. With your personality type, your first priority is to successfully complete the tasks/job where you volunteer and where you work. It's where you are happy in your own skin. You can develop friendships with others like you or who are mature. The two sisters are not treating you as a friend. Would you treat them that way? No? Then, I'd EXPLAIN why you don't want to be friends and end the friendship. EXPLAIN their behavior, how it made you feel and your boundaries regarding friendship. (IE:you refuse to be the gossip of your friends). Then, hang up or walk away. If they approach you, treat them cordially and engage in only business regarding the church. I think you'd be a great friend. With your skills, you could independently motivate those like you, w/o knowing it. |
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Peamac
Pearl Clutcher
Refupea # 418
Posts: 4,218
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Post by Peamac on Apr 11, 2016 12:33:21 GMT
I would be very careful what I say around them, so I don't give them anything they can twist or gossip to others about. Of course, if they just make stuff up, there's not much you can do. Can you go to them (individually) and confront them about what they've said? Not bringing the "friendship" into it (why did you stab me in the back, I thought we were friends), but from a gossip/lie perspective (you said..., but you know that's not true. If you had a problem with..., why didn't you come to me so we could talk about it?). Of course they can deny it all, but I think you need to try that, especially since the issues all seem to revolve around the church and you don't want them to effect your job and the people you serve.
I've had that happen to me, and it turned out that the person was always alienating others by exaggerating, lying, etc. We had recently moved to the area so we didn't know at first. It took a few months before we saw the true person she was. Once we realized that she would take the most innocent comment and twist it around and tell others a made-up story, I knew I couldn't trust her to not gossip, even if I said something as simple as "hello". Fortunately her family left our organization, but it was a small town and I know she still had friends in our group. They eventually saw what she was doing and tried to change her, but we moved away and I don't know if she's still gossiping.
I personally don't think the OP is gossiping by asking about the situation here. She didn't name names, she's not talking about the sisters just to gossip, she's trying to come up with a solution to an issue that is affecting her life- personally and professionally.
As church secretary, you do need to be careful that people find you approachable and easy to talk to. If others in the congregation know you are friends with the sisters and know what they're like, they may be afraid you're like the sisters also. They may be afraid you'll gossip like the sisters do. Maybe this is a good opportunity to cut ties with the sisters for the sake of your job.
I was working with a group of ladies from our church once and as I was leaving the location, I walked past an open window. I overheard the ladies talking about the people we had been helping that day, and I heard, "I'm so glad .... came- she seems so sweet!" and "I know, and her children are really well-behaved" and "I'm looking forward to getting to know .... She's very quiet, but I'm sure she has a lot of good input". Everything those ladies were saying was kind and loving. I didn't know all of the ladies very well at the time, but it reassured me that I could trust them and that they were not gossips. That's the kind of friends we need to have and the kind we need to be.
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Post by debmast on Apr 11, 2016 12:39:38 GMT
I'm most curious about the undiagnosed disorder that makes her say something one day and later deny saying it! Has she told you she has an undiagnosed disorder?
It sounds to me like she tells too many untruths and can't keep up with what she has said.
Like the others, I think I'd be moving on as well.
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Kerri W
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,768
Location: Kentucky
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Post by Kerri W on Apr 11, 2016 12:41:34 GMT
1. You seem to have an incredibly high opinion of yourself. It's awesome to have good self esteem but I wonder if you're coming across IRL like you are on this post?
2. Don't downplay the part you have played in gossiping WITH these ladies. You know what they say...if they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you.
3. Congratulations on getting the only job in the history of ever working for a church making *great* pay.
4. No, your friendship isn't what I would consider real...on any of the party's parts.
5. My answers are not a reflection of jealousy of you.
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Deleted
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Apr 30, 2024 5:47:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 12:42:50 GMT
It seems to me that it is very hard to be mistreated by friends at church. Even though you know they are completely human, you want to expect more. Is there a counselor at your church has who could help you process and get closure on this?
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Post by not2peased on Apr 11, 2016 12:50:59 GMT
I suspect you are part of the problem as you seem way over invested in how important and awesome you are. That has to be awfully annoying to be around.
personally, I don't put a lot of faith in 3rd hand reports about someone talking about you. people make shit up all the time, more so, if they know it's something hurtful.
you need to decide whether or not you want to be friends with these folks or not-it really is that simple
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Apr 11, 2016 13:17:40 GMT
What us INTJ??? Yet another new acronym for something??? I don't think the three of you are really friends with each other. I'd have ended it the first time one of them said something bad about my SIL. I also don't see what your "prominent" church position is??? No offense but you sound like you think you're better than them....it's a bad friendship all the way around. ETA: I just looked it up. Someone test you and come up with the INTJ??? Seriously why do we label everything and everyone? I'm thinking you are also part of the problem in this friendship. Don't be so harsh with INTJ ( or those types of labels) a lot of people have been "tested" I've actually had to do this for work a few times (different) employers as a building workshop for employees --it's harmless and it's kinda fun to find out that information (although one already knows it!). I know people have used those acronyms so that when relating a story or issue, they do so as full disclosure so that others giving advice have the big picture! OP let them go and move on to their next victim. Take the high road here. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Apr 11, 2016 13:37:14 GMT
ETA: I just looked it up. Someone test you and come up with the INTJ??? Seriously why do we label everything and everyone? I'm thinking you are also part of the problem in this friendship. Don't be so harsh with INTJ ( or those types of labels) a lot of people have been "tested" I've actually had to do this for work a few times (different) employers as a building workshop for employees --it's harmless and it's kinda fun to find out that information (although one already knows it!). I know people have used those acronyms so that when relating a story or issue, they do so as full disclosure so that others giving advice have the big picture! OP let them go and move on to their next victim. Take the high road here. A lot of people have been tested by honestly, I have never seen anyone Reference it regularly besides INTJ's. I think that has to do in part because they are rare, but the fact that it is rare also plays into their personality. My closest interactions with an INTJ is with a friend. I feel for her. She analyzes everything and often her interpretation of a situation is much different than that of others. She doesn't have the objectivity to see things from another point of view, even though I do think she tries. She has had disrupted relationships on all levels--family, friends, her ability to work. I don't know the op and don't know how similar her situation is with these friends, but what I would like to tell my friend is to be objective and try to see things from the other persons point of view and that just because you have the title INTJ, don't let it rule your view of yourself. Step out of your world for a while and try to see what others see. My friend is so hung up on being an INTJ and what she thinks that means that I think she paints herself into a corner. |
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Post by mcscrapper on Apr 11, 2016 14:18:26 GMT
It doesn't sound like you are not a very good friend to these women at all. You also seem to have a very high opinion of yourself. I'm sure this sounds harsh but YOU are the one that used "intimidated by me" and other verbiage that comes across as someone with a confrontational attitude and, quite frankly, arrogant. Not a good combo when trying to be friends with women.
You also admit to sharing gossip. My thought on that.... What goes around, comes around.
Sounds like this is a toxic relationship and it would be best to walk away then learn and grow from this experience.
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,313
Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Apr 11, 2016 14:19:44 GMT
Are these tests given by and interpreted by experts or some online rate the importance of the following from 1-10 quiz anyone can google and self administer and then declare "This is me"?
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Deleted
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Apr 30, 2024 5:47:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 14:19:51 GMT
 It's great that you're so confident but there's a very fine line that crosses over in to arrogance. Being around people who constantly toot their own horn is difficult and tiresome. Have a think about how you are coming across and if there really was any basis for her comments.
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Post by myshelly on Apr 11, 2016 14:56:19 GMT
Why are you the "boss"?
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Deleted
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Apr 30, 2024 5:47:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 15:14:11 GMT
They don't sound like friends. If it were me, I would just stop inviting them for coffee. I think the friendship will die out just by doing that. Treat them cordially at church settings, but leave it at that.
I have a hard time making friends now that I'm older, but I've come to realize, relationships, including friendships, just don't work if they are one sided. Sometimes it's better to just move on. Don't give them anymore gossip fodder.
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freebird
Drama Llama
'cause I'm free as a bird now
Posts: 6,927
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Post by freebird on Apr 11, 2016 15:29:01 GMT
This thread makes me sad and angry. A woman speaks with confidence about herself and her job and other women cut her down "how dare you speak confidently!"  Pretend like the OP is a man and read it again. |
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It's great that you're so confident but there's a very fine line that crosses over in to arrogance. Being around people who constantly toot their own horn is difficult and tiresome. Have a think about how you are coming across and if there really was any basis for her comments. 
