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Post by elaine on May 1, 2016 18:37:40 GMT
I guess I just don't get the fuss about armpit hair. Yes it's her body and she's perfectly entitled to do what she wants with it, of course she is but how does armpit hair define anyone? You never know she might be going to shave anyway without anyone telling/asking/throwing a hissy fit about it. So, if the bride asked you to shave your head, or dramatically cut your hair, you'd be equally fine with it? Or if your husband had facial hair, had purposefully grown a beard and really liked how he looked with it, and the groom asked him to shave? For some people, especially those who made a conscious decision NOT to shave any part of their body, their body hair is part of their identity, regardless of where that hair is. Flip the tables, would you be fine with a "Au natural" bride who ordered strapless bridesmaid dresses and then demanded that they all grew out their armpit hair because she wanted all of them to match her throughout the day and in all the pictures?
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grinningcat
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Post by grinningcat on May 1, 2016 18:51:49 GMT
I totally agree. One of the biggest things that made me the most uncomfortable was the people who were all "it's your day you have to have it perfect for you" (well, and those who were the exact opposite and told me that I was doing everything wrong because I wasn't doing it their way). No, it's a WIC myth that it's the "bride's day". Last time I checked, there's also a groom involved and probably a bunch of people helping to make it happen. Are the bride and groom at the centre of the day? Yes. But the people helping them are just as important (sometimes moreso) than the bride and groom... and there's no reason to be rude and expect major body changes just to fit some cookie cutter bullshit wedding look. I acknowledged and embraced my bridal party's differences and looks... we had three very different looking guys. They may have had similar suits, similar shirts and ties on, but each one looked just like they always do... personalities, piercings and all. I would have never dreamt of demanding they do something out of the ordinary just to get a specific look. Nor would I have asked someone because of family demands. No one wants a pity invite. And I wager this "hippy" sister knows that's all she is. If the bride has to go to mommy about this, there is no relationship. And that's sad. And tacky. So Armpit hair is now "a major body change?" Forcing someone to fit a look for one day is a major body change. Just like asking someone to dye or cut their hair for one day or lose weight or not get pregnant or take out your piercings or shave your beard or wear a padded bra or whatever. Yes, you are making a major modification that will take time to come back to the norm.
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Post by peasapie on May 1, 2016 18:53:23 GMT
I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, it feels wrong to ask anyone to shave anything. On the other hand, the bridal party usually has a unified look - same style and/or color dresses, shoes, etc. So maybe not too far off to ask for all shaved armpits that day.
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Post by elaine on May 1, 2016 18:57:32 GMT
A bit off-topic, but related: I will admit, even though I do shave my armpits, I do get creeped out by society's norms to have women aspire to prepubescent hairless bodies. The whole Brazilian wax thing has pedophilic connections to me and thinking of it gives me the willies! I have no desire to remove all my pubic hair and look like a 10 year old down there.
If I wanted to be consistent, I really should consider not shaving my pits any more. This thread has given me something to think about.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on May 1, 2016 18:58:50 GMT
Is every bridesmaids dress strapless and/or sleeveless? Shouldn't all the eyes be on the beautiful bride? One would think, but you never know with arm pit hair on full display. My guess that many a guest would find it distracting.
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Post by lucyg on May 1, 2016 19:01:34 GMT
A bit off-topic, but related: I will admit, even though I do shave my armpits, I do get creeped out by society's norms to have women aspire to prepubescent hairless bodies. The whole Brazilian wax thing has pedophilic connections to me and thinking of it gives me the willies! I have no desire to remove all my pubic hair and look like a 10 year old down there. If I wanted to be consistent, I really should consider not shaving my pits any more. This thread has given me something to think about. One word, Elaine: smell. Armpit hair tends to retain sweaty smells more than bare skin does. There, I gave you a perfectly acceptable excuse to continue to shave your pits and still maintain your revulsion at Brazilian waxing.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on May 1, 2016 19:04:13 GMT
No it's not the same thing. However, once you decide it's okay to ask someone to change their appearance to make you more comfortable it's headed that way. Because you're only thinking about your comfort and not considering that someone else has a different idea. This is how we end up in a world where women are expected to shave all body hair so as to not offend others. And to that I'd say Fuck You. holy shit, that got extremely rude in an otherwise fairly civil discussion And what is even crazier, this is just for ONE DAY. No one is asking that she shaves her out air forever to the end of time, it's just for one day, for photos.
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Post by elaine on May 1, 2016 19:04:17 GMT
A bit off-topic, but related: I will admit, even though I do shave my armpits, I do get creeped out by society's norms to have women aspire to prepubescent hairless bodies. The whole Brazilian wax thing has pedophilic connections to me and thinking of it gives me the willies! I have no desire to remove all my pubic hair and look like a 10 year old down there. If I wanted to be consistent, I really should consider not shaving my pits any more. This thread has given me something to think about. One word, Elaine: smell. Armpit hair tends to retain sweaty smells more than bare skin does. There, I gave you a perfectly acceptable excuse to continue to shave your pits and still maintain your revulsion at Brazilian waxing. LOL! Maybe after I stop having hot flashes, then I will reconsider not-shaving my pits. Right now I do have my fair share of sweaty incidents throughout the day.
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quiltz
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Post by quiltz on May 1, 2016 19:09:58 GMT
Is every bridesmaids dress strapless and/or sleeveless? Shouldn't all the eyes be on the beautiful bride? One would think, but you never know with arm pit hair on full display. My guess that many a guest would find it distracting. Do you really think that this bridesmaid is going to flaunt her pits to everyone attending this wedding? I highly doubt it.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on May 1, 2016 19:10:46 GMT
What I don't understand is when people became so eager to be so offended and insulted by every little thing. I remember a time that most people wouldn't have a brain aneurism over the idea of a bride asking a bridesmaid to shave her pits for the wedding pictures that she was paying a fortune for. I miss that world. I totally agree. So then why is the bride offended and insulted by her attendants arm pit hair? I don't get it. It's the brides right to feel that this will affect her in seeing the wedding photos and/or any distraction that may transpire at the wedding. You're adamant with the "how dare that bride ask a bridesmaid to change" but you sure have no issue cramming armpit hair down the throat of someone who might not care for it. Yes, she could have not included her, but that too would be hurtful. I read the article--it did mention that only a year ago did the bridesmaid adopt a hippy lifestyle. You can't tell me that no one is going to not notice the armpit hair, people will.
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Post by chlerbie on May 1, 2016 19:13:50 GMT
So...let's say for the sake of argument that people notice it, talk about her, make comments, etc. How does that even affect the bride? This is a decision that the bridesmaid has made and I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time she's had to deal with that. It's not going to show up in the group posted photos, etc. If it's in some other photo and it upsets her that much, she can not use the photo and/or photoshop it out. Problem solved.
I live in an area where many women make this choice, and while I may notice it, I really don't care.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 19:14:17 GMT
I think most brides choose people they know and love to be in the bridal party, they usually have the same tastes and ideas. I think it's ridiculous to suggest that they'd suddenly demand that people shave their heads or grow hair under their arms.
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Post by elaine on May 1, 2016 19:16:05 GMT
holy shit, that got extremely rude in an otherwise fairly civil discussion And what is even crazier, this is just for ONE DAY. No one is asking that she shaves her out air forever to the end of time, it's just for one day, for photos. So, would you be okay if the bride demanded that one bridesmaid wear a wig because she didn't like her hair? Or asks just one bridesmaid to color her hair - using a 28 day non-permanent color and will fade out after a month? (About the same time it would take the arm hair to grow back out) It is just for one day, after all. It is rude to ask someone to change their physical appearance simply to please you. It has always been that way in polite and civilized society. I'd like to say that this a first world problem, but I think it is really just a United States problem where we infantilize women. This wouldn't be an issue in many first world European countries where women can shave or not shave their pits and no one gives it a second thought.
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Post by lucyg on May 1, 2016 19:16:29 GMT
I totally agree. So then why is the bride offended and insulted by her attendants arm pit hair? I don't get it. It's the brides right to feel that this will affect her in seeing the wedding photos and/or any distraction that may transpire at the wedding. You're adamant with the "how dare that bride ask a bridesmaid to change" but you sure have no issue cramming armpit hair down the throat of someone who might not care for it. Yes, she could have not included her, but that too would be hurtful. I read the article--it did mention that only a year ago did the bridesmaid adopt a hippy lifestyle. You can't tell me that no one is going to not notice the armpit hair, people will. Yes, people will notice it, because it's not the norm we're accustomed to. But anyone who is sooooo grossed out that it affects his or her enjoyment of the day (including the bride and MOG) is being childish and ridiculous. Really. It's a personal choice. And yes, I shave (even my hippy DD shaves) and I don't care for the look of unshaved pits at all. I just don't think it's earth-shattering in any way.
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Post by elaine on May 1, 2016 19:18:22 GMT
I think most brides choose people they know and love to be in the bridal party, they usually have the same tastes and ideas. I think it's ridiculous to suggest that they'd suddenly demand that people shave their heads or grow hair under their arms. No more ridiculous than this bride asking her SIL to shave her pits, IMO. And someone else already posted about guys actually being asked to shave.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on May 1, 2016 19:20:57 GMT
A bit off-topic, but related: I will admit, even though I do shave my armpits, I do get creeped out by society's norms to have women aspire to prepubescent hairless bodies. The whole Brazilian wax thing has pedophilic connections to me and thinking of it gives me the willies! I have no desire to remove all my pubic hair and look like a 10 year old down there. If I wanted to be consistent, I really should consider not shaving my pits any more. This thread has given me something to think about. I guess it would depend on why you shave whether or not your stance is inconsistent. I'm hairless because of comfort - I hate the feeling of body hair to begin with. Add sweat from working out and I become completely freakin' snakey.
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grinningcat
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Post by grinningcat on May 1, 2016 19:20:57 GMT
A bit off-topic, but related: I will admit, even though I do shave my armpits, I do get creeped out by society's norms to have women aspire to prepubescent hairless bodies. The whole Brazilian wax thing has pedophilic connections to me and thinking of it gives me the willies! I have no desire to remove all my pubic hair and look like a 10 year old down there. If I wanted to be consistent, I really should consider not shaving my pits any more. This thread has given me something to think about. One of the creepiest conversations I had before the wedding was when I was bombarded with waxing questions for the wedding night. Apparently, I am supposed to be 100% bare down there to be appealing to my husband. Since they were being crass, I dished it back saying something about I'm not a porn star nor a prepubescent boy followed by a rant about society's bullshit ideals for women's appearances. Now that I think of it, that may have been the moment they realized that I wasn't "one of them" and wasn't going to fall in line because I have a brain and all that. Seriously who, outside of an aesthetician, would ask any questions about your pubes? So gross.
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grinningcat
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Post by grinningcat on May 1, 2016 19:23:00 GMT
I totally agree. So then why is the bride offended and insulted by her attendants arm pit hair? I don't get it. It's the brides right to feel that this will affect her in seeing the wedding photos and/or any distraction that may transpire at the wedding. You're adamant with the "how dare that bride ask a bridesmaid to change" but you sure have no issue cramming armpit hair down the throat of someone who might not care for it. Yes, she could have not included her, but that too would be hurtful. I read the article--it did mention that only a year ago did the bridesmaid adopt a hippy lifestyle. You can't tell me that no one is going to not notice the armpit hair, people will. And if they do notice... so what? How on earth will that impact the wedding? It's hair. It's natural. What on earth is the big deal? Just because North American society is so damn hung up on the human body that body shaming is considered an acceptable pastime, it doesn't mean that armpit hair will destroy the wedding. It's hair not a bomb.
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grinningcat
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Post by grinningcat on May 1, 2016 19:26:11 GMT
I think most brides choose people they know and love to be in the bridal party, they usually have the same tastes and ideas. I think it's ridiculous to suggest that they'd suddenly demand that people shave their heads or grow hair under their arms. Having read a lot of stuff about weddings last year, it's not unusual at all. One story that I distinctly remember is the supposed best friend who was told to dye her hair brown at the last minute if she wanted to be in the wedding party because her blue hair was making the old people uncomfortable and they were muttering about the hair ruining the wedding. It destroyed the friendship. I believe the woman wore a wig to not cause a scene, but she felt betrayed that her friend could no longer accept who she was and expected her to change. There is a belief that brides have a right to have things "their way" for weddings... everyone else and especially individuality be damned.
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Post by BlueDiamond on May 1, 2016 19:30:46 GMT
In my eyes, it is the same - asking someone to cut their hair for a day. Doesn't matter the origin of belief (religious vs. cultural vs. general principle). Why would you want to ask someone to change something about themselves just to appear in your wedding? Shouldn't you like someone REGARDLESS of superficial elements? Yeah, I get that the bride felt that she HAD to ask future SIL to be in the wedding. She just needs to suck it up then, if she can't dictate who gets to be in her own wedding. And I can't believe someone would actually replace someone in the wedding party just because he wouldn't shave his beard. ETA: I was trying to quote the line about it not being the same as asking a Hasidic Jew to cut off his curls. Don't know why the quote didn't work.
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Post by justkat on May 1, 2016 19:31:05 GMT
I'd like to say that this a first world problem, but I think it is really just a United States problem where we infantilize women. This wouldn't be an issue in many first world European countries where women can shave or not shave their pits and no one gives it a second thought.[/quote]
This is my last comment as think we've gotten away from the actual topic. :-)
I'm from Brussels Belgium. Contrary to stereotype European women do not run around looking like sasquatch. We do shave and wax. We don't consider it a form of infantilization, we consider it basic hygiene.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 19:32:04 GMT
Well I'll just wade right in to these shark infested waters. I think it depends on how you see armpit hair - as natural and lovely and let it flow like Lady Godiva lest you be oppressed by the man, or as something that is groomed a certain way and that way fits into a societal norm...or it did, anyway. It's just hair and grooming conventions to me, not a conspiracy of the patriarchy. Armpit hair is like uncombed hair on one's head to me, so I guess I wouldn't freak over someone asking me to brush it or style it a certain way for a wedding to shave it off my armpits. Likewise if the bridesmaids were wearing open toed shoes and the bride asked me to get a pedicure; heck she might even specify the color. It's all temporary stuff. What if a bride had bridesmaids dresses that were really short and someone had major pubage that hung out and under the hemline of the skirt? Cool? Dreadlocked pubes are good with everyone? DON'T JUDGE PEOPLE. /hyperbole
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Post by elaine on May 1, 2016 19:35:08 GMT
This is my last comment as think we've gotten away from the actual topic. :-) I'm from Brussels Belgium. Contrary to stereotype European women do not run around looking like sasquatch. We do shave and wax. We don't consider it a form of infantilization, we consider it basic hygiene. I lived in Paris for a year and saw plenty of arm pit hair in women, from France and from other neighboring countries. None of those women, especially the Parisians, looked like Sasquatch. ETA: and that is the point - armpit hair doesn't make someone look like a savage or un-groomed, it is a personal choice.
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GiantsFan
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Post by GiantsFan on May 1, 2016 19:37:19 GMT
I totally agree. So then why is the bride offended and insulted by her attendants arm pit hair? I don't get it. It's the brides right to feel that this will affect her in seeing the wedding photos and/or any distraction that may transpire at the wedding. You're adamant with the "how dare that bride ask a bridesmaid to change" but you sure have no issue cramming armpit hair down the throat of someone who might not care for it. Yes, she could have not included her, but that too would be hurtful. I read the article--it did mention that only a year ago did the bridesmaid adopt a hippy lifestyle. You can't tell me that no one is going to not notice the armpit hair, people will. This statement is laughable. I'm cramming arm pit hair down throats? Ya, OK. My opinion is that if someone doesn't shave then they should not be asked to do it to appease someone else. And I also think no one will notice or care, except for a few Peas.
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Post by sunraynnc on May 1, 2016 19:45:41 GMT
I'm assuming if hippy sil doesn't shave her pits she doesn't shave her legs either. If the bridal party is on a type of elevated altar area, her fuzzy legs will be more noticeable.
As of 2016, suburban American still considers women shaving legs and pits part of normal grooming.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on May 1, 2016 19:58:28 GMT
So are men similarly hairless?
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Post by mari on May 1, 2016 20:09:08 GMT
When I consider the women who I care for enough to ask to be bridesmaids, I would likely feel comfortable enough to ask if they would be willing to shave. "Hey, I know you're doing the hippie thing, but would you be open to shaving for the wedding? I'll buy the razor!"
But, if she said no, we'd have to look at other solutions (like sleeves on the dresses).
I'm answering hypothetically because I wouldn't personally be bothered by underarm hair. It's not hurting anyone and I couldn't imagine it'd be terribly obvious in most pictures.... I also don't consider shaving under the arms to be a major body modification or equivalent to shaving your head (or even shaving off a beard).
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on May 1, 2016 20:13:36 GMT
And what is even crazier, this is just for ONE DAY. No one is asking that she shaves her out air forever to the end of time, it's just for one day, for photos. So, would you be okay if the bride demanded that one bridesmaid wear a wig because she didn't like her hair? Or asks just one bridesmaid to color her hair - using a 28 day non-permanent color and will fade out after a month? (About the same time it would take the arm hair to grow back out) It is just for one day, after all. It is rude to ask someone to change their physical appearance simply to please you. It has always been that way in polite and civilized society. I'd like to say that this a first world problem, but I think it is really just a United States problem where we infantilize women. This wouldn't be an issue in many first world European countries where women can shave or not shave their pits and no one gives it a second thought. We are talking about armpit hair---not wigs, not changing vegetarianism, not asking them to change their entire look. We are talking about armpit hair in a wedding. That's it---nothing else. I don't view this as an end to feminism, or rude, and am not reading anything else world problem related into it. It's crazy that there are considerations for a person sporting arm pit hair, yet ugly name calling for those who don't care to see it. It isn't the norm here in the US, it's just making a comeback (since the 60's) and (unfortunately) here in the US it has connotations as being unkempt, and not a look one would normally want in a wedding scenario, so I can understand a bride not wanting to view it on their wedding day.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on May 1, 2016 20:16:16 GMT
One would think, but you never know with arm pit hair on full display. My guess that many a guest would find it distracting. Do you really think that this bridesmaid is going to flaunt her pits to everyone attending this wedding? I highly doubt it. You don't know that she wouldn't either!
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on May 1, 2016 20:19:02 GMT
Do you really think that this bridesmaid is going to flaunt her pits to everyone attending this wedding? I highly doubt it. You don't know that she wouldn't either! I would imagine the bride would know her bridesmaid well enough to guess whether or not she would be obnoxious about it, no?
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