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Post by anxiousmom on Jun 16, 2016 0:31:50 GMT
Here is a question-and I think by now you know that while you and I don't always agree, we do okay being reasonable with each other... So here is the scenario. You and I, we are having coffee together. As we sit across the table from each other, I say 'you know, I don't understand the need for a person to have an automatic weapon that is capable of shooting a lot of bullets at one time.' And you say 'that isn't up to you to decide, it is my right to own one.' I agree with you in general about gun ownership and you nod your head and say that the Second Amendment guarantees that you are able to buy whatever kind of weapon platform your want that is legal. I say again, but what is the point of rapid fire (regardless of how many times a person pulls the trigger.) We start to disagree about the finer points. But-and here is my question-at what point do we get to a point where we can start talking about a compromise? I hear and listen to what you say, you hear and listen to what I say. Maybe I concede to a weapon that has a smaller magazine, you concede to smaller magazine. Yay! We agree on something! I hear you say that no one has the right to tell you what you can own, and in general I do agree with that. But in practice, I have some reservations. Would there ever be a point where we could talk about compromise, the gray area in between no way you get a military style weapon and yes, I get what ever I want? Head, banging on wall 100x with expectation of different results. There isn't going to be a compromise anxiousmom from anyone with a radical, fearful, paranoid, polar end of the spectrum point of view. There will always be blame that the "other side" is doing everything wrong and lies, never to be trusted. You ARE right anxiousmom, there is no reason at all to have a civilian using any assault-military-combat type of gun. NONE. Protecting ones self can be accomplished with other gun choices that are not assault type weapons. Look at (or even talk to) your LEO's they carry and have guns, use guns for protection. They are trained and practice and they don't use assault type guns on a daily basis for the job that they do day in and day out. Maybe, but I figured I would try. I do know people in real life who believe the same way and I find that sometimes we can talk and have a decent conversation that includes compromise. I am not a fan of the military style weapons. But they are part of of our world now and I would rather try to figure out a way that we can make it for all of us. As I said, I have a kid who is National Guard, but infantry in the Guard. His weapon is one of those type guns. And, from what I hear, he is pretty handy with it. So maybe the key is me listening to him, and learning about how he gets what he wants and I can live with his choice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 0:33:18 GMT
There is no trust in this administration or of anyone on the left regarding this because there have been so many blatant lies about absolutely everything. I don't expect anyone to admit that we were lied to, but the trust just isn't there. How can you have meaningful conversation even when you cannot trust anything you hear? I could name a bunch of the lies but what is the point? Nobody is going to own up to them. Please provide us with a list of lies you referred to above. How can one "own up" to them if they don't know what they are.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 0:36:58 GMT
When I consider the thinking, which I truly have, one of my "Yeah, but"s is that there are more than 100 free countries in the world. Many of them have far fewer guns than we do, and far more restrictions for ownership. In these countries, there doesn't seem to be a feeling that the vigilance necessary to remain free includes an armed populace...or that they remain free only through luck. I'd be interested to hear what any international members here think of the idea (...but I suspect they've fled this thread... ) As an international Pea I have always found that thought to be something very alien and so far removed from my thinking but I could only assume that was just because of the way your nation was formed, your history etc. I took it that it was something I would never identify with and could never really empathise with because it just wasn't in my psyche. It's interesting that it's not universal I certainly have zero concern that we ought to have armed members of the general public in case the government turned on us. It's just not going to happen. gar said exactly my thoughts too.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Jun 16, 2016 0:45:14 GMT
There is no trust in this administration or of anyone on the left regarding this because there have been so many blatant lies about absolutely everything. I don't expect anyone to admit that we were lied to, but the trust just isn't there. How can you have meaningful conversation even when you cannot trust anything you hear? I could name a bunch of the lies but what is the point? Nobody is going to own up to them. And forcing us to buy anything is unconstitutional, but what does anyone care? "It's for the greater good." No. Giving up my rights is not for the greater good. Damn, we need MORE freedom not less. This used to be a country I was proud of, not so much anymore. I don't even want to be associated with a lot of what is happening. It's being changed into ugly crap I don't even know what to call it. It certainly isn't good. When our own damn flag is removed because it's racist? Go back to where ever you came from if you can't stand to look at the flag I fought for in the country I fought for! I learned to fire a weapon in the military, and had earned the expert marksmanship ribbon to wear on my uniform. I'm not giving up my weapon. Maybe you don't understand that, but that's OK. I do. So, see, I learned something new about you-I had no idea that you were former military. And I do understand, not maybe in the sense that I ever served, but in the sense that I have heard enough from people who have issues with trust. I have a kid in the National Guard that while isn't in active service, it is service. And I woke up the other morning to a text with a picture of his ginormous rucksack and his gun with the message that said 'this is my gun, there are others like it, but this one is mine.' He and I have these discussions too. We don't always agree either, but I do listen to him. And there have been points of compromise. So that doesn't mean that two reasonable people can't talk about compromise. I am not against responsible gun ownership-I grew up with too many hunter types (and people who shoot for fun) to ever go there. My question was at what point can we talk about maybe how easy it is to get the guns, or that maybe allowing for large capacity magazines isn't a good idea without a separate license or...something. But without discussion, we can't get there. And I believe there is a grey area-one that allows for both sides to feel that they haven't lost anything. And, which flag? I'm not against responsible gun ownership either. I am very cautious when it comes to giving up any freedom at all, because you can never get it back. History has shown this. This is supposed to be a free country and nothing I see today is leading to more freedom. It's all take, take, take our freedoms away. "We'll just take a little bit of freedom away, it's for the greater good." I disagree. In a takeover situation the first thing done is to disarm the citizens. We can never allow that to happen here. There is a reason so many people want to get into this country. Freedom. And there are some very alarmed immigrants who come from less free countries who see what is happening here and are trying to warn people but they don't listen. They think if they call it "Democrat socialism" that it will be different, that it will work. It won't. People need to listen. It's going to get bad. Very bad. You won't ever get this free country back again, and the way it is going is the wrong way. I hope I do not live to see this country get destroyed by the hopelessness of socialism. It doesn't work and never will. You can't get your freedom back once you lose it. It will be too late.
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Post by oliquig on Jun 16, 2016 1:35:59 GMT
What about extended clips? Can we agree that the average gun owner shouldn't be able to buy them?
What is the purpose of being able to shoot that many bullets, except to kill?
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 16, 2016 1:44:28 GMT
Awesome wise words (Lt. Gov. Cox R Utah)
Usually when tragedy occurs, we see our nation come together. I was saddened, yesterday to see far too many retreating to their over-worn policy corners and demagoguery. Let me be clear, there are no simple policy answers to this tragedy. Beware of anyone who tells you that they have the easy solution. It doesn’t exist. And I can assure you this — that calling people idiots, communists, fascists or bigots on Facebook is not going to change any hearts or minds. Today we need fewer Republicans and fewer Democrats. Today we need more Americans.
But just because an easy solution doesn’t exist, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. The greatest generations in the history of the world were never innately great. They became great because of how they responded in the face of evil. Their humanity is measured by their response to hate and terror.
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Post by mirabelleswalker on Jun 16, 2016 2:02:33 GMT
Hunting I can name off a few rifles for each type of animal hunted for food. Self Defense I can name off a few hand guns. Once again not a single one of those needs a large clip. Not a single one of those needs a military style weapon. Why DO YOU think you need one? The reason is irrelevant because you don't get to decide for me if I need something or not.Not for you with guns, but for other women with abortions? Got it.
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Post by bc2ca on Jun 16, 2016 2:24:40 GMT
When I consider the thinking, which I truly have, one of my "Yeah, but"s is that there are more than 100 free countries in the world. Many of them have far fewer guns than we do, and far more restrictions for ownership. In these countries, there doesn't seem to be a feeling that the vigilance necessary to remain free includes an armed populace...or that they remain free only through luck. I'd be interested to hear what any international members here think of the idea (...but I suspect they've fled this thread... ) As an international Pea I have always found that thought to be something very alien and so far removed from my thinking but I could only assume that was just because of the way your nation was formed, your history etc. I took it that it was something I would never identify with and could never really empathise with because it just wasn't in my psyche. It's interesting that it's not universal I certainly have zero concern that we ought to have armed members of the general public in case the government turned on us. It's just not going to happen. I always find this fear of the government turning on the people to be fascinating given that the US was created after the opposite happened.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 2:43:05 GMT
So, see, I learned something new about you-I had no idea that you were former military. And I do understand, not maybe in the sense that I ever served, but in the sense that I have heard enough from people who have issues with trust. I have a kid in the National Guard that while isn't in active service, it is service. And I woke up the other morning to a text with a picture of his ginormous rucksack and his gun with the message that said 'this is my gun, there are others like it, but this one is mine.' He and I have these discussions too. We don't always agree either, but I do listen to him. And there have been points of compromise. So that doesn't mean that two reasonable people can't talk about compromise. I am not against responsible gun ownership-I grew up with too many hunter types (and people who shoot for fun) to ever go there. My question was at what point can we talk about maybe how easy it is to get the guns, or that maybe allowing for large capacity magazines isn't a good idea without a separate license or...something. But without discussion, we can't get there. And I believe there is a grey area-one that allows for both sides to feel that they haven't lost anything. And, which flag? I'm not against responsible gun ownership either. I am very cautious when it comes to giving up any freedom at all, because you can never get it back. History has shown this. This is supposed to be a free country and nothing I see today is leading to more freedom. It's all take, take, take our freedoms away. "We'll just take a little bit of freedom away, it's for the greater good." I disagree. In a takeover situation the first thing done is to disarm the citizens. We can never allow that to happen here. There is a reason so many people want to get into this country. Freedom. And there are some very alarmed immigrants who come from less free countries who see what is happening here and are trying to warn people but they don't listen. They think if they call it "Democrat socialism" that it will be different, that it will work. It won't. People need to listen. It's going to get bad. Very bad. You won't ever get this free country back again, and the way it is going is the wrong way. I hope I do not live to see this country get destroyed by the hopelessness of socialism. It doesn't work and never will. You can't get your freedom back once you lose it. It will be too late.I take it you aren't going to provide that list of lies?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 2:55:41 GMT
Or, which flag
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 16, 2016 2:58:49 GMT
Or, which flag I believe it is the Confederate flag that is being referred to as being taken away.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 3:04:33 GMT
When our own damn flag is removed because it's racist? Go back to where ever you came from if you can't stand to look at the flag I fought for in the country I fought for! Rainbow certainly didn't fight for the Confederate flag, so where has the U.S. flag been removed from in the U.S.?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 3:21:03 GMT
When our own damn flag is removed because it's racist? Go back to where ever you came from if you can't stand to look at the flag I fought for in the country I fought for! Rainbow certainly didn't fight for the Confederate flag, so where has the U.S. flag been removed from in the U.S.? I just heard a story in the news in the last week or so, that a Rhode Island fire department was told to remove their flags from the trucks by a city leader because they were too much like terrorist flags. Many HOAs won't let you fly a flag, a hardware store owner in Florida was told by the city he had to remove the flags from his store. American flags were removed from Confederate graves because they didn't think they belonged on those soldiers graves. Students in a Georgia school were made to remove flags from their vehicles. Students at UC Irvine voted to remove the flag because it was offensive. The list seems to go on forever.
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Post by peano on Jun 16, 2016 5:20:51 GMT
Rainbow certainly didn't fight for the Confederate flag, so where has the U.S. flag been removed from in the U.S.? I just heard a story in the news in the last week or so, that a Rhode Island fire department was told to remove their flags from the trucks by a city leader because they were too much like terrorist flags. Many HOAs won't let you fly a flag, a hardware store owner in Florida was told by the city he had to remove the flags from his store. American flags were removed from Confederate graves because they didn't think they belonged on those soldiers graves. Students in a Georgia school were made to remove flags from their vehicles. Students at UC Irvine voted to remove the flag because it was offensive. The list seems to go on forever. Wow, I knew HOAs could be a pain, but I never knew they were anti-American!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 8:52:34 GMT
Rainbow certainly didn't fight for the Confederate flag, so where has the U.S. flag been removed from in the U.S.? I just heard a story in the news in the last week or so, that a Rhode Island fire department was told to remove their flags from the trucks by a city leader because they were too much like terrorist flags. Many HOAs won't let you fly a flag, a hardware store owner in Florida was told by the city he had to remove the flags from his store. American flags were removed from Confederate graves because they didn't think they belonged on those soldiers graves. Students in a Georgia school were made to remove flags from their vehicles. Students at UC Irvine voted to remove the flag because it was offensive. The list seems to go on forever. The bolded part isn't quite what happened Gia? " Move" and "Remove" have very different meanings! Link to what actually happened
and while covering the store owners story I might as well give you the link to the firemen story at Rhode Island too. It seems that you have heard some part of it that was out of context so here's the rest of it:- Rhode Island firefighters in American flag dispute
I do find Snopes a very useful site to check things out.
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Deleted
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Jun 1, 2024 19:12:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 9:31:58 GMT
I just heard a story in the news in the last week or so, that a Rhode Island fire department was told to remove their flags from the trucks by a city leader because they were too much like terrorist flags. Many HOAs won't let you fly a flag, a hardware store owner in Florida was told by the city he had to remove the flags from his store. American flags were removed from Confederate graves because they didn't think they belonged on those soldiers graves. Students in a Georgia school were made to remove flags from their vehicles. Students at UC Irvine voted to remove the flag because it was offensive. The list seems to go on forever. Wow, I knew HOAs could be a pain, but I never knew they were anti-American! I don't think they are peano. maybe this story is the one they are referring to
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jun 16, 2016 11:25:06 GMT
I do find Snopes a very useful site to check things out. Heh. We had our own flag kerfuffle in a nearby town, also Snopes-debunked. A few firefighters were asked to remove flag decals from their lockers. It became a short-lived cause célèbre in the national right wing press...but it turns out the rules were that the firefighters were not allowed to have ANYTHING but their names posted on their lockers. (Of course, the fire chief, bowing to public pressure, then had to make nice and slap American flag decals on everybody's lockers.)
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 16, 2016 11:28:20 GMT
I just heard a story in the news in the last week or so, that a Rhode Island fire department was told to remove their flags from the trucks by a city leader because they were too much like terrorist flags. Many HOAs won't let you fly a flag, a hardware store owner in Florida was told by the city he had to remove the flags from his store. American flags were removed from Confederate graves because they didn't think they belonged on those soldiers graves. Students in a Georgia school were made to remove flags from their vehicles. Students at UC Irvine voted to remove the flag because it was offensive. The list seems to go on forever. The bolded part isn't quite what happened Gia? " Move" and "Remove" have very different meanings! Link to what actually happened
and while covering the store owners story I might as well give you the link to the firemen story at Rhode Island too. It seems that you have heard some part of it that was out of context so here's the rest of it:- Rhode Island firefighters in American flag dispute
I do find Snopes a very useful site to check things out. And in the Rhode Island instance, it was 1 person employed by the city who asked that the flag be taken off the back of the truck, they were not ordered to do it (flag still remains) and the one city worker who called them "yahoos and having the look of how terrorists display their flags on vehicles" since apologized for even making the comments. The RI fire dept was not made to remove them.
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Post by fruitysuet on Jun 16, 2016 12:19:40 GMT
When I consider the thinking, which I truly have, one of my "Yeah, but"s is that there are more than 100 free countries in the world. Many of them have far fewer guns than we do, and far more restrictions for ownership. In these countries, there doesn't seem to be a feeling that the vigilance necessary to remain free includes an armed populace...or that they remain free only through luck. I'd be interested to hear what any international members here think of the idea (...but I suspect they've fled this thread... ) As an international Pea I have always found that thought to be something very alien and so far removed from my thinking but I could only assume that was just because of the way your nation was formed, your history etc. I took it that it was something I would never identify with and could never really empathise with because it just wasn't in my psyche. It's interesting that it's not universal I certainly have zero concern that we ought to have armed members of the general public in case the government turned on us. It's just not going to happen. Completely agree.
We have a democracy. Our votes count. I thought that was the benefit of a democracy?
I can't imagine how scared I would feel if I knew that there were members of the public out and about wherever I was that were likely to be armed. To me that is unthinkable and unnecessary.
I would hate to have to feel like that all the time and not have any say in the matter
You don't get to decide for me what I need.
This is me but from the opposing view. You don't get to decide that I need to be fearful of all the loaded weapons being carried out and about willy nilly.
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Post by Merge on Jun 16, 2016 12:21:55 GMT
I just heard a story in the news in the last week or so, that a Rhode Island fire department was told to remove their flags from the trucks by a city leader because they were too much like terrorist flags. Many HOAs won't let you fly a flag, a hardware store owner in Florida was told by the city he had to remove the flags from his store. American flags were removed from Confederate graves because they didn't think they belonged on those soldiers graves. Students in a Georgia school were made to remove flags from their vehicles. Students at UC Irvine voted to remove the flag because it was offensive. The list seems to go on forever. Wow, I knew HOAs could be a pain, but I never knew they were anti-American! I live in the land of HOAs (no zoning here so almost every neighborhood has some kind of community association) and have never heard of the American flag being disallowed. I have heard of disputes over homeowners wanting to erect a giant flagpole on their property in a neighborhood of single family homes on fairly small lots, and I've heard of communities that restrict the flying of ANY flag to days around specific holidays for aesthetic reasons, but never a total ban on flying the flag on the front of the home as many people do. I'd be interested to see a link on that claim. ETA: a quick Google search shows that most if not all of the above-named incidents were instances of short-lived and quickly resolved dispute, or else bans that included any decoration in that particular space and were not limited to the US flag, that were stirred up into scandal by the right-wing media. If I may say so, @mytnice , it seems it might benefit you to "dig a little deeper" on these issues as beckytech exhorted liberals to do on another thread last night.
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Post by secondlife on Jun 16, 2016 13:06:38 GMT
The reason is irrelevant because you don't get to decide for me if I need something or not. Not for you with guns, but for other women with abortions? Got it. Or trans folks and bathroom access, a subject on which I quote: "You can't just not use a bathroom when it's needed. How about if it's dangerous for a transgender to use a restroom then THEY just don't use one? Because it isn't about bathrooms, fairness, discrimination or anything else except forcing more crap on people who don't want it." Rainbow, June 5 So in other words, you don't get to decide for me what I need, but I get to decide for you which bathroom you should use if any. I'm not trying to be snarky or play gotcha, I'm just trying to point out where I see inconsistency. I find it very strange that in our culture today, some people are more worried about whether there's a penis in your pants than whether there's a weapon (especially one capable of killing dozens of people in a matter of minutes) in your pants. Folks want to talk about the safety of women and children and yet they don't want to talk about the safety of women and children.
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Post by anxiousmom on Jun 16, 2016 13:33:08 GMT
I'm not against responsible gun ownership either. I am very cautious when it comes to giving up any freedom at all, because you can never get it back. History has shown this. This is supposed to be a free country and nothing I see today is leading to more freedom. It's all take, take, take our freedoms away. "We'll just take a little bit of freedom away, it's for the greater good." I disagree. In a takeover situation the first thing done is to disarm the citizens. We can never allow that to happen here. There is a reason so many people want to get into this country. Freedom. And there are some very alarmed immigrants who come from less free countries who see what is happening here and are trying to warn people but they don't listen. They think if they call it "Democrat socialism" that it will be different, that it will work. It won't. People need to listen. It's going to get bad. Very bad. You won't ever get this free country back again, and the way it is going is the wrong way. I hope I do not live to see this country get destroyed by the hopelessness of socialism. It doesn't work and never will. You can't get your freedom back once you lose it. It will be too late. I have been thinking on this, so much so that I dreamed about it last night. Weird, right? In theory, I understand. I understand to the point that I would vehemently oppose repealing the Second Amendment. I agree that anytime we try to mess with the constitution to take away rights it doesn't work. When we use it to become more inclusive it works. I also agree that it is hard to get back what has been given up. What I am having trouble with is that I don't see how closing loopholes in background checks, gaps in already written laws or even having a discussion that says I hear you and want to honor your views will you hear me and honor mine is taking away the right to own a weapon. But I think, and this is where I woke up this morning is that we are both interpreting the same information in a different way. Until we can come to common ground there, we won't ever be able to talk about anything else. Like socialism. I will grant you that I am not the smartest tool in the toolbox, but the fact of the matter is that we already live in a country that already has limited socialist programs. That is the little s socialism, not the big S Socialism. We all pay into a tax system that provides us with police and fire protection, roads and road maintenance, public park systems, social programs to feed and shelter our citizens, etc. What I do not see is a wholesale movement toward big S Socialism. Where I think part of the problem is in interpretation-in other words, where we get our information. If the bulk of what the average person reads is doom and gloom predictions of the US being a sneeze away from a communist dictatorship, then we are going to view every action and reaction of our government taking us down that path. If, on the other hand, we get our information about from pollyanna sources, we are going to see every action/reaction as taking us down a primrose path. The key, of course, is try to balance out both of those views to have a more realistic interpretation. Somewhere back in the dark ages, I got a degree in a history. Revolutionary China was my area of study. That is the period of time when the Communist Party under Mao took over...lots of upheaval and violence. As a part of that, I also got to study the Communist take over of Russia as they were very intertwined with the Chinese Communist party. From the perspective I have, we are in no way in danger of turning into a socialist/communist/dictator led country. There are way too many checks and balances in place. Having a discussion about how we can make a change in magazine capacity doesn't push anyone near the brink of the abyss either.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Jun 16, 2016 14:00:21 GMT
I'm not against responsible gun ownership either. I am very cautious when it comes to giving up any freedom at all, because you can never get it back. History has shown this. This is supposed to be a free country and nothing I see today is leading to more freedom. It's all take, take, take our freedoms away. "We'll just take a little bit of freedom away, it's for the greater good." I disagree. In a takeover situation the first thing done is to disarm the citizens. We can never allow that to happen here. There is a reason so many people want to get into this country. Freedom. And there are some very alarmed immigrants who come from less free countries who see what is happening here and are trying to warn people but they don't listen. They think if they call it "Democrat socialism" that it will be different, that it will work. It won't. People need to listen. It's going to get bad. Very bad. You won't ever get this free country back again, and the way it is going is the wrong way. I hope I do not live to see this country get destroyed by the hopelessness of socialism. It doesn't work and never will. You can't get your freedom back once you lose it. It will be too late. I have been thinking on this, so much so that I dreamed about it last night. Weird, right? In theory, I understand. I understand to the point that I would vehemently oppose repealing the Second Amendment. I agree that anytime we try to mess with the constitution to take away rights it doesn't work. When we use it to become more inclusive it works. I also agree that it is hard to get back what has been given up. What I am having trouble with is that I don't see how closing loopholes in background checks, gaps in already written laws or even having a discussion that says I hear you and want to honor your views will you hear me and honor mine is taking away the right to own a weapon. But I think, and this is where I woke up this morning is that we are both interpreting the same information in a different way. Until we can come to common ground there, we won't ever be able to talk about anything else. Like socialism. I will grant you that I am not the smartest tool in the toolbox, but the fact of the matter is that we already live in a country that already has limited socialist programs. That is the little s socialism, not the big S Socialism. We all pay into a tax system that provides us with police and fire protection, roads and road maintenance, public park systems, social programs to feed and shelter our citizens, etc. What I do not see is a wholesale movement toward big S Socialism. Where I think part of the problem is in interpretation-in other words, where we get our information. If the bulk of what the average person reads is doom and gloom predictions of the US being a sneeze away from a communist dictatorship, then we are going to view every action and reaction of our government taking us down that path. If, on the other hand, we get our information about from pollyanna sources, we are going to see every action/reaction as taking us down a primrose path. The key, of course, is try to balance out both of those views to have a more realistic interpretation. Somewhere back in the dark ages, I got a degree in a history. Revolutionary China was my area of study. That is the period of time when the Communist Party under Mao took over...lots of upheaval and violence. As a part of that, I also got to study the Communist take over of Russia as they were very intertwined with the Chinese Communist party. From the perspective I have, we are in no way in danger of turning into a socialist/communist/dictator led country. There are way too many checks and balances in place. Having a discussion about how we can make a change in magazine capacity doesn't push anyone near the brink of the abyss either. I have really been thinking on this a lot too since last night. I'm going to respond to this later as I'm feeling a bit ill right now and am going to lie down. I'll be back in a little while.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 16:26:03 GMT
I have been thinking on this, so much so that I dreamed about it last night. Weird, right? In theory, I understand. I understand to the point that I would vehemently oppose repealing the Second Amendment. I agree that anytime we try to mess with the constitution to take away rights it doesn't work. When we use it to become more inclusive it works. I also agree that it is hard to get back what has been given up. There is a certain amount of truth in what you say. However the 2nd amendment is a flawed amendment and has been for over 200 years because of the placement of a comma. "What was the original intent of this amendment" has followed this amendment for decades. In fact for almost 200 years it was widely accepted the intent of the 2 amendment was to guarantee the right of a well armed militia. Not the right of an individual to own weapons. If you read some of the discussions going on at the time the country was formed one major concern was protection of the fledging country. At the time the framers agreed they didn't want a standing army but wanted to make sure the members of the militia was well armed since the country was not going to supply the members of the militia with arms. Nothing was mentioned of individual rights. So it makes sense the amendment was written to guarantee rights to members of the militia and not the individual. But because the individuals who wrote the amendment are dead we will never know for sure what the intent of the 2nd amendment which has created this confusion about its original intent. None of the other amendments have created the same level of confusion as the 2nd amendment. Because of this very confusion maybe it's time it goes.
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Post by missmiss on Jun 16, 2016 16:50:38 GMT
Not for you with guns, but for other women with abortions? Got it. Or trans folks and bathroom access, a subject on which I quote: "You can't just not use a bathroom when it's needed. How about if it's dangerous for a transgender to use a restroom then THEY just don't use one? Because it isn't about bathrooms, fairness, discrimination or anything else except forcing more crap on people who don't want it." Rainbow , June 5 So in other words, you don't get to decide for me what I need, but I get to decide for you which bathroom you should use if any. I'm not trying to be snarky or play gotcha, I'm just trying to point out where I see inconsistency. I find it very strange that in our culture today, some people are more worried about whether there's a penis in your pants than whether there's a weapon (especially one capable of killing dozens of people in a matter of minutes) in your pants. Folks want to talk about the safety of women and children and yet they don't want to talk about the safety of women and children. Don't you know a penis is more dangerous than a gun.
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flute4peace
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,757
Jul 3, 2014 14:38:35 GMT
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Post by flute4peace on Jun 16, 2016 17:21:57 GMT
There is no trust in this administration or of anyone on the left regarding this because there have been so many blatant lies about absolutely everything. I don't expect anyone to admit that we were lied to, but the trust just isn't there. How can you have meaningful conversation even when you cannot trust anything you hear? I could name a bunch of the lies but what is the point? Nobody is going to own up to them. And forcing us to buy anything is unconstitutional, but what does anyone care? "It's for the greater good." No. Giving up my rights is not for the greater good. Damn, we need MORE freedom not less. This used to be a country I was proud of, not so much anymore. I don't even want to be associated with a lot of what is happening. It's being changed into ugly crap I don't even know what to call it. It certainly isn't good. When our own damn flag is removed because it's racist? Go back to where ever you came from if you can't stand to look at the flag I fought for in the country I fought for! I learned to fire a weapon in the military, and had earned the expert marksmanship ribbon to wear on my uniform. I'm not giving up my weapon. Maybe you don't understand that, but that's OK. I do. You know, this paragraph is very telling to me. Please forgive my speculation.
I've always felt strongly that there is a difference between an explanation and an excuse.
Explanation: Rainbow says here that she was in the service, and I think it's pretty common knowledge that those in active service can emerge with a different view of things than the rest of us. She hasn't said where she was stationed nor what she did, but since she said she fought and that she holds a marksmanship credential, I'm going to assume overseas somewhere. If she was involved in combat and experienced the horrors of war, perhaps that might help explain why she feels so strongly about her rights in terms of gun control. If I had been in a position where my weapon literally was the only chance I had at survival, I might come out of it feeling the same way.
That being said, it does not EXCUSE the manner in which she has commented so defensively/rudely on this thread (or elsewhere). There's a BIG difference between saying, "When I was in Iraq, our weapon was many times the only thing that stood between our lives or death. Our survival literally depended on it. Because of that, I don't feel comfortable without having access to it, and the thought that someone wants to take it away from me is terrifying", and coming onto a thread about grieving a tragedy to spout about gun control.
I could be way off, of course, but hopefully that makes sense.
Bottom line though - An explanation might help us understand one's behavior, but it most certainly does not excuse it. I hope that makes sense?
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Post by missmiss on Jun 16, 2016 18:02:38 GMT
I was also in the military for 8 years. Was able to get my German Armed Forces Badge of Marksmanship. I have also shot numerous of other weapons because of where I was stationed. You fought for a flag? ?? Sorry I hate to tell you but you didn't fight for a flag. You fought because you were told to by the US Government because they owned you. Our flag has nothing to do with any war that we have been in since i was born back in 1975. List of wars Communist insurgency in Thailand Shaba II Multinational Force in Lebanon Invasion of Grenada Tanker War Invasion of Panama Gulf War Somali Civil War Intervention in Haiti Bosnian War Albanian civil war Kosovo War War in Afghanistan Iraq War War in North-West Pakistan 2011 military intervention in Libya War on ISIL (Operation Inherent Resolve) War in Afghanistan Which of these was fought for our flag? You being in the Military is beside the point. Only two of the wars listed above was the US vs One other. One was to throw dictator out of power. The other Tanker War was over oil. You being in the Military has nothing to do with you owning guns or anyone else owning guns.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 1, 2024 19:12:23 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 19:12:03 GMT
I just heard a story in the news in the last week or so, that a Rhode Island fire department was told to remove their flags from the trucks by a city leader because they were too much like terrorist flags. Many HOAs won't let you fly a flag, a hardware store owner in Florida was told by the city he had to remove the flags from his store. American flags were removed from Confederate graves because they didn't think they belonged on those soldiers graves. Students in a Georgia school were made to remove flags from their vehicles. Students at UC Irvine voted to remove the flag because it was offensive. The list seems to go on forever. The bolded part isn't quite what happened Gia? " Move" and "Remove" have very different meanings! Link to what actually happened
and while covering the store owners story I might as well give you the link to the firemen story at Rhode Island too. It seems that you have heard some part of it that was out of context so here's the rest of it:- Rhode Island firefighters in American flag dispute
I do find Snopes a very useful site to check things out. Admittedly, I didn't research the instances. I did remember the fire RI department one because it was very recent and I've heard it reported many times through the years so I just googled for examples to answer the question and didn't delve into them. Thanks for the rest of the story on those 2.
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Post by missmiss on Jun 16, 2016 19:20:41 GMT
Who hunts with this? This is the type of weapon used in the Orlando Shooting. Once again why does the average person need a weapon like this?
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 16, 2016 20:04:04 GMT
Who hunts with this? This is the type of weapon used in the Orlando Shooting. Once again why does the average person need a weapon like this? They don't .
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