katybee
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,378
Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Jul 26, 2016 4:40:47 GMT
You know, when I think about all these "good jobs" people are reminiscing about, I can't help but wonder if they were union jobs...
Because we know how much Donad Trump, and Republicans in general, love unions...
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Deleted
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May 17, 2024 22:06:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 4:44:09 GMT
If we bring the factories in Mexico, China, Bangladesh, etc. to the US, they will not all be "state of the art." They are sweatshops. They pay poverty wages. They are dangerous. Some even employee child/slave labor. Companies use them because they are CHEAP. Because American consumers like CHEAP. Not those factories. New factories. For new products. With new production methods. Is that not quite a bit of overhead right out of the gate? To attract people, innovative educated people, wages would need to be significant. Speaking from an accounting background, the price of said product would have to be significant to break even with operating costs and make a profit. Like I said in my earlier post, how do you think higher priced products are going to play with the general public. I think most of us want our cake and eat it too! We want American made products at the lowest possible price.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 26, 2016 4:46:15 GMT
Not those factories. New factories. For new products. With new production methods. But are we willing to pay the higher prices associated with higher wages, benefits, better conditions, etc.? When people have the jobs that can allow them to pay for better quality, newer products, they do.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 26, 2016 4:48:24 GMT
Not those factories. New factories. For new products. With new production methods. That would be fantastic. But that's not what he ever says. I swear he only talks to the lowest common denominator. I am not responsible for a single thing that comes out of that man's mouth or from his Twitter account. I think he'd be looking a lot like this if I had any say over it....
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 26, 2016 4:50:42 GMT
You know, when I think about all these "good jobs" people are reminiscing about, I can't help but wonder if they were union jobs... Because we know how much Donad Trump, and Republicans in general, love unions... I had a really good, highly technical job that manufactured highly technical products and that job went overseas. It was not a union job.
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katybee
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,378
Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Jul 26, 2016 4:55:50 GMT
But are we willing to pay the higher prices associated with higher wages, benefits, better conditions, etc.? When people have the jobs that can allow them to pay for better quality, newer products, they do. I don't think so. I think we want the higher wages and STILL want the cheap stuff. We just want more of the cheap stuff.
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Deleted
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May 17, 2024 22:06:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 4:57:39 GMT
But are we willing to pay the higher prices associated with higher wages, benefits, better conditions, etc.? When people have the jobs that can allow them to pay for better quality, newer products, they do. I 100% believe in "you get what you pay for"...but I think it almost always comes down to most people want the lowest price. Too many are trying to make a little go a long way. I might gain a bit more respect for Trump if he said he was wrong about having his products made overseas and would bring them back to the States. But he is looking at his bottom line too. Just wish he would be honest about it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 5:02:16 GMT
Look, I agree leftturn, we NEED to make things again here in America. IMO, it is a multi-faceted problem that goes beyond halting trade agreements. I think Americans need to take a HARD look at themselves and ask if they are committed to buckling down to make things better rather than wanting one person to wave a magic wand and make it all better.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 26, 2016 5:05:46 GMT
When people have the jobs that can allow them to pay for better quality, newer products, they do. I don't think so. I think we want the higher wages and STILL want the cheap stuff. We just want more of the cheap stuff. That's a very negative view of the future. I thought only the Republicans were supposed to be thinking like that.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 26, 2016 5:06:50 GMT
I might gain a bit more respect for Trump if he said he was wrong about having his products made overseas and would bring them back to the States.
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Post by auntkelly on Jul 26, 2016 14:36:24 GMT
I am so excited and hopeful about the future. My son recently graduated with a degree in chemical engineering and I don't understand any of it but when he starts talking about robotics and 3 D printing and new types of plastics and new uses for plastics, I can't help but be hopeful about future industrial opportunities in America. I firmly believe the possibilities are endless. The hard part is striking a balance between making our country and its laws business friendly while respecting the environment and protecting the dignity of our workers.
I don't think American workers can make affordable shoes as long as children in third world countries are allowed to continue to work in deplorable conditions for puny wages. I don't think products like shoes are the future of American manufacturing. I think America will excell at making high tech products requiring highly skilled workers like smart cars and other products I can't even imagine.
I hope Americans never give up on the idea that we can make things and create good jobs and compete in a global economy.
I listened to Donald Trump's speech at the Republican Convention and I never got the idea that he wanted to build antiquated factories in America. As I've said before, I'm not a Trump fan, but I like what he has to say about bringing jobs back to America.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 26, 2016 14:50:11 GMT
I listened to Donald Trump's speech at the Republican Convention and I never got the idea that he wanted to build antiquated factories in America. As I've said before, I'm not a Trump fan, but I like what he has to say about bringing jobs back to America. He should start with his own and his family's companies. www.cnn.com/2016/05/26/politics/trump-clothing-foreign-made/I mean, I guess he's SAID he wants to bring jobs back to America (and once claimed he isn't going to eat Oreos anymore because the plant moved to Mexico), but what's he actually DONE or what, specifically, does he PLAN to do? That's a big question mark. And, his actions thus far have not really backed up his claim.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 15:01:57 GMT
I think there is going to be a new industrial revolution in the 21st century and I don't think there is any reason why America can't be on the cutting edge of it. People are always going to need things like shoes and cars and clothes. It's just a matter of how and where these things are made. The countries that train their workforce to stay on the cutting edge of technology and make things efficiently are going to prosper and the countries that don't keep up are going to fade. I don't understand the attitude of "we'll never have factories in the US again." The world is changing so fast. A factory which is state of the art today will probably be obsolete in ten years. There is no reason why America can't keep up with the rest of the world. I think that the past few decades have been about cheap labor. I personally think the future is going to be about skilled labor. I'm not a defender of Donald Trump, but I don't understand why people think that when he talks about factories he is talking about 1950s type factories. I think he is envisioning state of the art factories. Here's the rub: Americans don't want to pay the higher prices that will come with the higher wages American workers need/want. Sure. Corporations are big baddies for moving their factories to Bangladesh, paying their workers poverty wages, making them work ridiculous hours in downright dangerous conditions. But we are contributing to the problem by demanding lower and lower prices. If we really want to make a difference, we can make a serious effort to only buy made in the USA or fair trade/ethical products. We need to put our $ where our mouths are.... ITA! But, look at what happened to The Longaberger Company (and I use that as an example because I was in their sale force from 1994-2004), very expensive baskets and home décor.....why? Those baskets were made in Dresden, OH by a privately held company who paid their basket makers by piece, not by the hour, so it wasn't the workers that shared in the very expensive cost of the very products they made. When Dave Longaberger was alive, that company thrived, the employees loved him but after he died, his daughters turned it into a POS....they decided (privately held company) wasn't making enough profit margin on their products and decided to outsource some overseas (which is when I quit selling), they both build castles over the fiefdom of central Ohio, yet never raised wages for their employees, in fact, hundreds were laid off and on over the years, yet the company kept building.....a basket building that's for sale now, the Longaberger Homestead (a tourist attraction) and after running her father's company into the ground, it was sold and she resigned and now lawsuit after lawsuit has happened. One wonders had the company been public and there was a BOD that the Longaberger girls had to answer to, things might be different. Dave Longaberger has to be rolling in his grave. I don't like the statement of "Making American Great Again" at all.......like SockMonkey said, I like "Making America Better" because I happen to think that the US is pretty great already....sure we have problems, we always have, but Heir Trump made it sound like we were all living in a third world shit hole.....hmmmm....no, not even close.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 26, 2016 15:04:57 GMT
Here's the rub: Americans don't want to pay the higher prices that will come with the higher wages American workers need/want. Sure. Corporations are big baddies for moving their factories to Bangladesh, paying their workers poverty wages, making them work ridiculous hours in downright dangerous conditions. But we are contributing to the problem by demanding lower and lower prices. If we really want to make a difference, we can make a serious effort to only buy made in the USA or fair trade/ethical products. We need to put our $ where our mouths are.... ITA! But, look at what happened to The Longaberger Company (and I use that as an example because I was in their sale force from 1994-2004), very expensive baskets and home décor.....why? Those baskets were made in Dresden, OH by a privately held company who paid their basket makers by piece, not by the hour, so it wasn't the workers that shared in the very expensive cost of the very products they made. When Dave Longaberger was alive, that company thrived, the employees loved him but after he died, his daughters turned it into a POS....they decided (privately held company) wasn't making enough profit margin on their products and decided to outsource some overseas (which is when I quit selling), they both build castles over the fiefdom of central Ohio, yet never raised wages for their employees, in fact, hundreds were laid off and on over the years, yet the company kept building.....a basket building that's for sale now, the Longaberger Homestead (a tourist attraction) and after running her father's company into the ground, it was sold and she resigned and now lawsuit after lawsuit has happened. One wonders had the company been public and there was a BOD that the Longaberger girls had to answer to, things might be different. Dave Longaberger has to be rolling in his grave. I don't like the statement of "Making American Great Again" at all.......like SockMonkey said, I like "Making America Better" because I happen to think that the US is pretty great already....sure we have problems, we always have, but Heir Trump made it sound like we were all living in a third world shit hole.....hmmmm....no, not even close. The DNC came up with a better version: STRONGER TOGETHER. I like it. It's inclusive. It's teamwork, vs. competition. It's positive. Nicely done.
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Post by auntkelly on Jul 26, 2016 15:43:07 GMT
I listened to Donald Trump's speech at the Republican Convention and I never got the idea that he wanted to build antiquated factories in America. As I've said before, I'm not a Trump fan, but I like what he has to say about bringing jobs back to America. He should start with his own and his family's companies. www.cnn.com/2016/05/26/politics/trump-clothing-foreign-made/I mean, I guess he's SAID he wants to bring jobs back to America (and once claimed he isn't going to eat Oreos anymore because the plant moved to Mexico), but what's he actually DONE or what, specifically, does he PLAN to do? That's a big question mark. And, his actions thus far have not really backed up his claim. in my opinion, he has been pretty specific about his plan, whether you agree with it is another matter. I think he is mainly planning on requiring China to comply w/ it's WTO obligations and renegotiating NAFTA.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 26, 2016 16:49:48 GMT
I'm with leftturnonly and @formerlytravelagent. It's not about putting women back in the kitchen or putting those colored folk in there place. It's about taking this country back to when the laws were upheld, small businesses could be a reality, we were respected in the world and we didn't have a group that wanted to kill as so bad. The things we have accomplished - women's rights, civil rights, gay rights are all wonderful things. I am not thinking that Trump and those that support him want to reverse that. I know I don't. I support Trump and will be voting for him in the election. You might want to read the 2016 Republican Platform then--their plan/promise is to reverse the Supreme Court ruling on marriage--they state it is and should only be between one woman an man. If they succeed the LBGTQ will be set back decades in one fell swoop. They are against protection of the environment, they plan/promise to abolish the EPA, disallow settlements leading corrective action to those companies who violate environmental issues, instead to force the opposers (environmental groups trying to protect) into court taking years and years and $$$$ dragging it out. Here's all 66 pages: prod-static-ngop-pbl.s3.amazonaws.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL%5B1%5D-ben_1468872234.pdf
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jul 26, 2016 17:19:08 GMT
I think of one thing when I hear Trump say make America great again: JOBS! When I was growing up I lived in a small town with lots of good manufacturing jobs. Very few people had college educations, but they could work at one of the three factories in town and make a good living and dream of an even better life for their kids. Because there were so many good manufacturing jobs, our small town of 9,000 supported two movie theatres, two ladies clothing stores, two children's' clothing stores, a small department store, a mens' clothing shop, several grocery stores and many other small businesses. Now, there are absolutely no manufacturing jobs and virtually no small businesses. The best job that someone without a college degree can hope for is to work at Walmart or a fast food place for minimum wage. Most families are on some sort of public assistance. Drug abuse is a huge problem. My hometown was a great place to raise a family when I was growing up, but I wouldn't want to live there now. Times were certainly not perfect when I was growing up. There was a lot of racism etc., but I personally don't think Donald Trump is talking about when he says "let's make America great again." I think he is talking about all Americans having an opportunity to work and make a decent living. I'm not a big Trump supporter at all, but he does strike a chord with me when he talks about making America great again. I think many people have lost hope of ever rising above the poverty level. ^^^ to comment specifically on this part of your quote- now is a different time in the US manufacturing than previously in America, with factories becoming more automated, etc. I think it was in the article The Great Carpezio linked upthread (possibly; or else it was an interview on NPR) but I read / heard that the 'jobs leaving' phenomenon is mostly a myth-- manufacturing work is becoming more automated, which means less human employees are needed and that isn't going to ever go away. The types of jobs that are available to people now are just 'different' than they used to be.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jul 26, 2016 17:29:25 GMT
below is excerpted from the article that was linked earlier in the thread: When Did Optimism Become Uncool?
"Job growth has been strong for five years, with unemployment now below where it was for most of the 1990s, a period some extol as the “good old days.” The American economy is No. 1 by a huge margin, larger than Nos. 2 and 3 (China and Japan) combined. Americans are seven times as productive, per capita, as Chinese citizens. The dollar is the currency the world craves — which means other countries perceive America’s long-term prospects as very good.
Is the middle class in dire straits, as Mr. Sanders contends? Yes, inflation-adjusted middle-class household income peaked in 1998 and has dropped slightly since. But during the same period, federal income taxes on the middle class went down, while benefits went up. Gary Burtless of the Brookings Institution has shown that when lower taxes and higher benefits are factored in, middle-class buying power has risen 36 percent in the current generation. Is American manufacturing in free fall, as Mr. Sanders and Mr. Trump assert? Figures from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis show industrial output a tad below an all-time record level, while nearly double the output of the Reagan presidency, another supposed golden age. It’s just that advancing technology allows more manufacturing with fewer workers — a change unrelated to foreign competition.
A century ago, most Americans worked in agriculture: Today hardly any do, and we’re all better off, including farmers. That manual labor, farm or factory, has given way to 60 percent of Americans employed in white-collar circumstances is the important story in the long term. But nothing is achieved by moaning about the past. The challenge is to create even more white-collar opportunities.
Though candidates on the right are full of fire and brimstone this year, the trend away from optimism is most pronounced among liberals. A century ago Progressives were the optimists, believing society could be improved, while conservatism saw the end-times approaching. Today progressive thought embraces Judgment Day, too. Climate change, inequality and racial tension are viewed not as the next round of problems to be solved, but as proof that the United States is horrible.
And yet developing the postindustrial economy — while addressing issues such as inequality, greenhouse emissions and the condition of public schools — will require optimism. Pessimists think in terms of rear-guard actions to turn back the clock. Optimists understand that where the nation has faults, it’s time to roll up our sleeves and get to work."
^^^ the jobs available in the US today are DIFFERENT than they used to be and that probably won't be changing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 18:10:46 GMT
The DNC came up with a better version: STRONGER TOGETHER. I like it. It's inclusive. It's teamwork, vs. competition. It's positive. Nicely done. You think the DNC's words are better and more positive than the RNC's words. Big damn deal. The DNC's actions speak louder than their positively pretty words. And their actions are no better than Trump's. They're just slimier and sneakier about their sleazy actions.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 26, 2016 18:25:38 GMT
The DNC came up with a better version: STRONGER TOGETHER. I like it. It's inclusive. It's teamwork, vs. competition. It's positive. Nicely done. You think the DNC's words are better and more positive than the RNC's words. Big damn deal. The DNC's actions speak louder than their positively pretty words. And their actions are no better than Trump's. They're just slimier and sneakier about their sleazy actions. Ratchet your frothing back, please. I said I liked their slogan. And, in my opinion, their words, their actions and their beliefs ARE better than Trumps. KTHXBAI!
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Post by lucyg on Jul 26, 2016 18:31:25 GMT
The DNC came up with a better version: STRONGER TOGETHER. I like it. It's inclusive. It's teamwork, vs. competition. It's positive. Nicely done. You think the DNC's words are better and more positive than the RNC's words. Big damn deal. The DNC's actions speak louder than their positively pretty words. And their actions are no better than Trump's. They're just slimier and sneakier about their sleazy actions. All righty then.
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Post by Merge on Jul 26, 2016 18:39:41 GMT
You think the DNC's words are better and more positive than the RNC's words. Big damn deal. The DNC's actions speak louder than their positively pretty words. And their actions are no better than Trump's. They're just slimier and sneakier about their sleazy actions. All righty then. And she gets after me for "shutting down conversation."
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Post by nurseypants on Jul 26, 2016 18:49:45 GMT
All righty then. And she gets after me for "shutting down conversation." She'll be back with 50 million links to PROVE EXACTLY when you shut down the conversation and TO TELL YOU VERY SPECIFICALLY how this remark absolutely does not shut down conversation, in fact she is the one of the ONLY PEAS with her political affiliation and everyone else is TRYING TO SILENCE HER!!!!
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 26, 2016 19:09:57 GMT
All righty then. And she gets after me for "shutting down conversation." I'll second that! It's funny/ironic because all that she accuses "us liberals" of doing or saying she herself doses out in spades.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 26, 2016 19:17:45 GMT
And she gets after me for "shutting down conversation." She'll be back with 50 million links to PROVE EXACTLY when you shut down the conversation and TO TELL YOU VERY SPECIFICALLY how this remark absolutely does not shut down conversation, in fact she is the one of the ONLY PEAS with her political affiliation and everyone else is TRYING TO SILENCE HER!!!! Damn it!!! I spit out my very delicious iced coffee reading this!!! LOLMBO!! Dead on accurate too!
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Post by anxiousmom on Jul 26, 2016 19:19:43 GMT
The DNC came up with a better version: STRONGER TOGETHER. I like it. It's inclusive. It's teamwork, vs. competition. It's positive. Nicely done. You think the DNC's words are better and more positive than the RNC's words. Big damn deal. The DNC's actions speak louder than their positively pretty words. And their actions are no better than Trump's. They're just slimier and sneakier about their sleazy actions. For ME, I have a 'the glass isn't just half full, but the waiter is walking across the room to fill it up, the birds are singing, the sun is shining and life is good and not only is there a silver lining, but the silver has been polished and is shiny and happy' personality. For ME, I prefer the message of hope, the message of inclusion, the message of love. To ME, even a difference in the slogan is noticeable-being great AGAIN implies that we aren't great now. We are. There are some very obvious issues that need to be worked on, but even in that, the US is an amazing place to live. To ME, the very fact that we can disagree not only the nuances of the slogans, but vehemently about our candidates of choice without repercussions is fairly indicative of how great this country still is. And for ME, I am not blind to the faults of either candidate. What I do respond to better is the message of hope rather than a message of unhappiness and anger.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 23:44:35 GMT
You think the DNC's words are better and more positive than the RNC's words. Big damn deal. The DNC's actions speak louder than their positively pretty words. And their actions are no better than Trump's. They're just slimier and sneakier about their sleazy actions. Ratchet your frothing back, please. I said I liked their slogan. And, in my opinion, their words, their actions and their beliefs ARE better than Trumps. KTHXBAI! There's no frothing happening in my post. Just disagreement that because the DNC is sneaky about their sleaziness that they're less sleazy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 23:50:07 GMT
All righty then. And she gets after me for "shutting down conversation." Shutting down conversation happens when you demonize the opposing view. It usually happens with things like labeling with socially unacceptable phrases and terms such as racist, bigot, you must hate fill in the blank, xenophobe, paranoid, living in fear, evil, mentally deficient, Fox News watching, frothing, evil Republican, I don't like your source therefor your opinion is invalid, I can't refute what you say, so I'll personally attack you in some way, etc. Anything you can do to make someone fear being labeled and socially outcast, causing them to just shut up so they don't face any of that. I didn't do that, so your comparison of me to you is incorrect.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 23:56:00 GMT
You think the DNC's words are better and more positive than the RNC's words. Big damn deal. The DNC's actions speak louder than their positively pretty words. And their actions are no better than Trump's. They're just slimier and sneakier about their sleazy actions. For ME, I have a 'the glass isn't just half full, but the waiter is walking across the room to fill it up, the birds are singing, the sun is shining and life is good and not only is there a silver lining, but the silver has been polished and is shiny and happy' personality. For ME, I prefer the message of hope, the message of inclusion, the message of love. To ME, even a difference in the slogan is noticeable-being great AGAIN implies that we aren't great now. We are. There are some very obvious issues that need to be worked on, but even in that, the US is an amazing place to live. To ME, the very fact that we can disagree not only the nuances of the slogans, but vehemently about our candidates of choice without repercussions is fairly indicative of how great this country still is. And for ME, I am not blind to the faults of either candidate. What I do respond to better is the message of hope rather than a message of unhappiness and anger. To me, it implies just what you think. That we're still great, but we've slipped a little and have some very obvious issues to work on, but even in that, the US is an amazing place to live. To me, the term making it great again, doesn't imply that it isn't still great. I can see how others can see it that way, it's just that I and many others don't. Anyway, that isn't what I was commenting on in that post. I was commenting on the idea that just because the DNC came up with a more POSITIVE slogan, doesn't erase the fact that underneath, where they thought nobody would see, they were negative, ugly, vindictive, conniving and sleazy.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 26, 2016 23:56:23 GMT
Ratchet your frothing back, please. I said I liked their slogan. And, in my opinion, their words, their actions and their beliefs ARE better than Trumps. KTHXBAI! There's no frothing happening in my post. Just disagreement that because the DNC is sneaky about their sleaziness that they're less sleazy. Okay, I don't like you too much, but that right there is some funny shit. SaveSave
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