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Post by elaine on Sept 18, 2016 20:39:16 GMT
The wall vs. the fence around the White House is the stupidest analogy I've heard of, thankfully I've never heard it before or I'd start wondering how stupid the American public had become. I am sorry you've had to hear it. It is akin to saying people who don't believe in welfare shouldn't be taking child credits on their tax returns. Hypocrisy and all. I have never ever heard ANYONE say, "Take her guards away AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. It will BE VERY DANGEROUS." I'd welcome a clip of anyone other than Trump saying it. Please! At at least your post will help explain to those who don't know Sarah*H when she predicted what she knew someone would say.
It doesn't matter the exact words. Only the common analogy matters. I think you're way overreading things here.
I watched your clip above. It's not a joke. It's equivalent to someone saying, "I can fly." And then someone else says, "Well, jump off a cliff then and see how well that works out for you." They're not being violent and hoping that person will die by actually jumping off a cliff. What they're saying is don't be an idiot. Hillary would be an idiot to take away her bodyguards, she needs protection, and we would be idiots for allowing Hillary to take away our protection. Let's not be idiots.
That's what I get from this. Not over-reaching or reading. Explain how the bolder part isn't insinuating that Hillary supporters are idiots. You appear to to be okay with calling people idiots, if they support Hillary, but not okay with the crayon analogy if applies to "your people." Hypocrisy in action.
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 18, 2016 20:41:58 GMT
Personalities aside, knowing that he has literally no plan for anything, nothing he has put forth to this day from this past year on any policy, plan, ideas or even anything logical, it sure does strike me as odd and unbelievable that any intelligent person would vote for him.
Do you know anyone voting for Trump? Are you able to put a face on that person or those people? I find that helps when I have a hard time with figuring out why people do the things they do. As I get older, I find that I understand more why what happened in the past happened as I eventually confront those scenarios on a personal basis or meet people dealing with similar situations.
Philosophically, if an absolute statement is held within one's mind that nobody of intelligence would vote for Trump and yet one knows that 50% of the population is considering voting for Trump, then one would ask themselves where the disconnect lies. Now my dh would say, "There is no disconnect. I'm right. They're all just stupid." I on the other hand tend to think maybe I have a disconnect and I need to look further because clearly I'm not comprehending the situation. We've actually had discussions on this topic before and continue to disagree on the "right" answer.
I guess for myself, I just keep going back to that old story I heard once that has forever stuck in my mind of a student making an absolute statement such as, "There is no God." The teacher draws a circle and tells the student that the circle represents all knowledge in the history of the universe and time, and then asks the student to fill in how much of that knowledge they believe they know and comprehend. The student then proceeds to shade in a small circle within the much larger circle. The teacher then asks, "Now, seeing the amount of knowledge you believe yourself to have in comparison to all of the knowledge of the universe and time, can you now tell me again with certainly that there is no God?"
There's also the old adage, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." And that may be what is primarily going on here, that Trump is a means to an end.
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Post by elaine on Sept 18, 2016 20:56:51 GMT
Do you know anyone voting for Trump? Are you able to put a face on that person or those people? I find that helps when I have a hard time with figuring out why people do the things they do. As I get older, I find that I understand more why what happened in the past happened as I eventually confront those scenarios on a personal basis or meet people dealing with similar situations.
Philosophically, if an absolute statement is held within one's mind that nobody of intelligence would vote for Trump and yet one knows that 50% of the population is considering voting for Trump, then one would ask themselves where the disconnect lies. Now my dh would say, "There is no disconnect. I'm right. They're all just stupid." I on the other hand tend to think maybe I have a disconnect and I need to look further because clearly I'm not comprehending the situation. We've actually had discussions on this topic before and continue to disagree on the "right" answer.
I guess for myself, I just keep going back to that old story I heard once that has forever stuck in my mind of a student making an absolute statement such as, "There is no God." The teacher draws a circle and tells the student that the circle represents all knowledge in the history of the universe and time, and then asks the student to fill in how much of that knowledge they believe they know and comprehend. The student then proceeds to shade in a small circle within the much larger circle. The teacher then asks, "Now, seeing the amount of knowledge you believe yourself to have in comparison to all of the knowledge of the universe and time, can you now tell me again with certainly that there is no God?"
There's also the old adage, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." And that may be what is primarily going on here, that Trump is a means to an end.
There is a difference between people who will vote for Trump, but not believe his ever spectacular lies nor spread them (voting against a Democratic President or Hillary), and those who actually believe all the many lies he spews and will vote for him because they believe he speaks the truth about Hillary, Obama, Our Veteran, Muslims, Latinos, etc. and are too lazy to actually read the fact-check sites. The former, I may not agree with, but respect. The latter, are very dull crayons.
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 18, 2016 21:01:14 GMT
It doesn't matter the exact words. Only the common analogy matters. I think you're way overreading things here.
I watched your clip above. It's not a joke. It's equivalent to someone saying, "I can fly." And then someone else says, "Well, jump off a cliff then and see how well that works out for you." They're not being violent and hoping that person will die by actually jumping off a cliff. What they're saying is don't be an idiot. Hillary would be an idiot to take away her bodyguards, she needs protection, and we would be idiots for allowing Hillary to take away our protection. Let's not be idiots.
That's what I get from this. Not over-reaching or reading. Explain how the bolder part isn't insinuating that Hillary supporters are idiots.
The bolded statement has nothing to do with Hillary supporters.
Trump is saying Hillary would not remove her bodyguards because she needs to be kept safe. Hillary needs bodyguards as she is a high-profile person, everyone would agree. But why then would she align herself with people who advocate that the regular people should have their protection taken away? They need protection too. It doesn't make sense and it is hypocrisy and do as I say, not as I do because I'm special and you're not. The non-high-profile people also feel they need protection. If Trump supporters believe that Hillary is going to take away their protection, which many of them do, by chipping away at gun rights and continuing on in a long line of liberal lawmakers' efforts, then Trump supporters should not be dumb by voting for Hillary Clinton and getting their gun rights taken away because then they won't be able to protect themselves and their families when bad people come to their house and the police will be there in 30 minutes.
Hillary supporters would not be idiots for voting for Hillary because she represents their values. But Hillary does not represent the values of conservatives/gun rights people, so those people shouldn't be dumb by voting for someone who doesn't support their values and should instead vote for someone who does support their gun rights/values, a.k.a. Donald Trump.
And maybe "idiot" is a harsher word where you live. Here, we kind of use it as a friendly "don't be dumb, be smart" type of thing. That was just my wording, of course, attempting (clearly not great) to expand on my thoughts. But, again, nothing to do with Hillary supporters.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 21:08:09 GMT
There's also the old adage, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." And that may be what is primarily going on here, that Trump is a means to an end. If the desired end is walls around countries, registering non-Christians or even just people of one certain religion, reckless, unfettered, hate-speak and bigotry, and extreme volatility (especially with regards to foreign relations) then Trump is indeed a fantastic means to that end. Many of the things he says and does can not be explained away, no matter how many fantastic contortions are involved.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 21:13:42 GMT
Quick question: when you claim that Hillary wants to "take away" people's "protection," are you claiming that she wants to abolish the 2nd amendment? If so, please point me to any statement of hers that has called for striking down the 2nd amendment. Pundit opinions and pieces do not qualify.
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 18, 2016 21:14:35 GMT
There's also the old adage, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." And that may be what is primarily going on here, that Trump is a means to an end. If the desired end is walls around countries, registering non-Christians or even just people of one certain religion, hate-speak and bigotry, and extreme volatility (especially with regards to foreign relations) then Trump is indeed a fantastic means to that end. Many of the things he says and does can not be explained away, no matter how many fantastic contortions are involved.
I can tell you from my observations and discussions with people, most people believe he's just BS'ing. They don't actually believe he believes any of that and neither do they, it's all for the reaction and drama. I have seen some crazies on TV, but I don't know any of those people, although my daughter tells me my mother's getting a bit fanatical on Facebook. Yet another reason I don't do Facebook. General consensus from what I've heard is they think he's yanking chains. Some of them do want the wall though anyway, although nobody actually believes this will ever happen and there's a lot of rolling eyes and loud sighs when the wall people start talking.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 21:18:19 GMT
If the desired end is walls around countries, registering non-Christians or even just people of one certain religion, hate-speak and bigotry, and extreme volatility (especially with regards to foreign relations) then Trump is indeed a fantastic means to that end. Many of the things he says and does can not be explained away, no matter how many fantastic contortions are involved.
I can tell you from my observations and discussions with people, most people believe he's just BS'ing. They don't actually believe he believes any of that and neither do they, it's all for the reaction and drama. I have seen some crazies on TV, but I don't know any of those people, although my daughter tells me my mother's getting a bit fanatical on Facebook. Yet another reason I don't do Facebook. General consensus from what I've heard is they think he's yanking chains. Some of them do want the wall though anyway, although nobody actually believes this will ever happen and there's a lot of rolling eyes and loud sighs when the wall people start talking.
So, have these people who think he's just BSing considered what the consequences would be if he's serious? Are they not concerned about how quickly he can whip around to crazy, aggressive behavior and insults when he would be dealing with many foreign leaders that he might not agree with?
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 18, 2016 21:32:01 GMT
Quick question: when you claim that Hillary wants to "take away" people's "protection," are you claiming that she wants to abolish the 2nd amendment? If so, please point me to any statement of hers that has called for striking down the 2nd amendment. Pundit opinions and pieces do not qualify.
Not me, the Trump people, some of which I am surrounded by, and yes, they believe she wants to abolish the 2nd amendment. Once the 2nd amendment goes, then the 1st amendment will fall because once you take away people's ability to defend and protect themselves, then you can make them do anything you want by force.
I honestly don't listen to the facts, reasons, citations listed in discussion or listen to talk radio or FOX News enough to tell you what those might be because I don't really care that much and need to save room in my brain for other things. I just try to get the general gist. Plus usually there's a really long tirade of male reasoning with a lot of anger and I just can't deal with the emotion some days, kind of stresses me out. Especially when it's a large group of people and not everyone agrees and then voices start to raise and I'm the party peacemaker. I just want everyone to be happy. Basically, though, she stands in a long line of people attempting to chip away at their gun rights/conservative values. The simple fact that she is running as a candidate of the Democratic Party is enough to say she stands against gun rights, although I'm sure there are a myriad more reasons that they could cite.
Two days ago, I decided I was voting for Hillary, that I just might do it. One day ago, I decided I wasn't voting. Today I haven't decided what I'm doing.
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rodeomom
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Post by rodeomom on Sept 18, 2016 21:33:48 GMT
If the desired end is walls around countries, registering non-Christians or even just people of one certain religion, hate-speak and bigotry, and extreme volatility (especially with regards to foreign relations) then Trump is indeed a fantastic means to that end. Many of the things he says and does can not be explained away, no matter how many fantastic contortions are involved.
I can tell you from my observations and discussions with people, most people believe he's just BS'ing. They don't actually believe he believes any of that and neither do they, it's all for the reaction and drama. I have seen some crazies on TV, but I don't know any of those people, although my daughter tells me my mother's getting a bit fanatical on Facebook. Yet another reason I don't do Facebook. General consensus from what I've heard is they think he's yanking chains. Some of them do want the wall though anyway, although nobody actually believes this will ever happen and there's a lot of rolling eyes and loud sighs when the wall people start talking.
Not where I live! They absolutely believe he will build that wall! And they want him too. And they think Mexico will pay for it. Have you not been listening to the people at his rallies? Have you not been listening to his campaign manager and his surrogates? I don't know who you are talking to, but the people I talk to really believe him. And why would they want a president who BS about his policies? Why would they want a president who says stuff for the reaction and drama? This is no joke! We live in serious times.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 21:42:07 GMT
Quick question: when you claim that Hillary wants to "take away" people's "protection," are you claiming that she wants to abolish the 2nd amendment? If so, please point me to any statement of hers that has called for striking down the 2nd amendment. Pundit opinions and pieces do not qualify.
Not me, the Trump people, some of which I am surrounded by, and yes, they believe she wants to abolish the 2nd amendment. Once the 2nd amendment goes, then the 1st amendment will fall because once you take away people's ability to defend and protect themselves, then you can make them do anything you want by force.
I honestly don't listen to the facts, reasons, citations listed in discussion or listen to talk radio or FOX News enough to tell you what those might be because I don't really care that much and need to save room in my brain for other things. I just try to get the general gist. Plus usually there's a really long tirade of male reasoning with a lot of anger and I just can't deal with the emotion some days, kind of stresses me out. Especially when it's a large group of people and not everyone agrees and then voices start to raise and I'm the party peacemaker. I just want everyone to be happy. Basically, though, she stands in a long line of people attempting to chip away at their gun rights/conservative values. The simple fact that she is running as a candidate of the Democratic Party is enough to say she stands against gun rights, although I'm sure there are a myriad more reasons that they could cite.
Two days ago, I decided I was voting for Hillary, that I just might do it. One day ago, I decided I wasn't voting. Today I haven't decided what I'm doing.
Ok, thanks for the clarification. So it seems that these Trump people, especially the ones who also believe the ridiculous assertion that Hillary wants to do away with the 2nd amendment, are all about their (more likely, their pundits) chosen interpretations on the candidates. Sure, everyone does that to varying extents, but it's fascinating that so many are unwilling to take Trump at his word and consider the possibility that he means exactly what he says/does when he makes fun of a disabled reporter, or tells his supporters that he'll pay their legal fees when they 'knock the hell out of' protestors, etc. etc. etc. It takes some spectacular mental gymnastics to pooh-pooh and excuse all that away. And I completely empathize with your indecision. I have felt that way for over a year. I had been hoping that the red stranglehold on my state (thus ensuring that Trump gets the electoral votes) would be weak enough for my vote to count this time around. Once again, it looks like I'm SOL.
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 18, 2016 21:49:38 GMT
I can tell you from my observations and discussions with people, most people believe he's just BS'ing. They don't actually believe he believes any of that and neither do they, it's all for the reaction and drama. I have seen some crazies on TV, but I don't know any of those people, although my daughter tells me my mother's getting a bit fanatical on Facebook. Yet another reason I don't do Facebook. General consensus from what I've heard is they think he's yanking chains. Some of them do want the wall though anyway, although nobody actually believes this will ever happen and there's a lot of rolling eyes and loud sighs when the wall people start talking.
So, have these people who think he's just BSing considered what the consequences would be if he's serious? Are they not concerned about how quickly he can whip around to crazy, aggressive behavior and insults when he would be dealing with many foreign leaders that he might not agree with?
I've raised that concern, particularly regarding the nuke button. I'm told that his advisors won't let him do that. He doesn't really have that much power. Everybody would agree that when nukes start flying, everyone loses. It wouldn't happen.
But also with men, they don't tend to see his behavior as that crazy or aggressive or his insults as particularly damaging, they believe the media blows a lot of that up and puts words in his mouth and interprets things incorrectly, or he's BS'ing, so they seem to be less affected by that thought process at all. It's all just words. However, there is agreement that sometimes Trump should just shut his mouth and stop talking.
There's also some agreement that America has been bending over backwards for other countries around the world for far too long and taking it to our detriment, playing nice-y, nice has cost us big and the American people have been the ultimate losers, especially economically, wages not rising, jobs being lost, trade deficit, and that other countries are just taking advantage of our niceness because we're not being smart about what we do with our money and how we make our deals. It is believed Donald may help with that as he is a businessman and seems to have more of a clue than the current people we have in office. That belief seems to be shared across all groups, even those probably voting for Hillary.
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Post by ntsf on Sept 18, 2016 21:54:17 GMT
none of the hillary supporters I know think trump is a good business man...they think he is a total crook without morals...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 22:02:13 GMT
believe the media blows a lot of that up and puts words in his mouth How anyone can think that words have been put in his mouth when he's on camera mocking the disabled, saying he'll pay legal fees of people who 'knock the hell out of 'em' (and so much more) is just mind boggling. It's either willful, deliberate obtuseness or ignorance, or it's absolute endorsement of the hate-speak. There are hours of footage of him saying completely vile things to and about people. No one's putting words in his mouth. It's completely verifiable. Well, it is for those who will step back from the pundits and just look at facts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 22:04:34 GMT
none of the hillary supporters I know think trump is a good business man...they think he is a total crook without morals... I am not an enthusiastic Hilary supporter, but I agree. I have never thought Trump was a good businessman. He's someone who was fortunate enough to born into big money, and even with all those advantages, he has screwed up plenty of businesses. He has also left plenty of regular people in the lurch.
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Post by lucyg on Sept 18, 2016 22:07:48 GMT
It doesn't matter the exact words. Only the common analogy matters. I think you're way overreading things here.
I watched your clip above. It's not a joke. It's equivalent to someone saying, "I can fly." And then someone else says, "Well, jump off a cliff then and see how well that works out for you." They're not being violent and hoping that person will die by actually jumping off a cliff. What they're saying is don't be an idiot. Hillary would be an idiot to take away her bodyguards, she needs protection, and we would be idiots for allowing Hillary to take away our protection. Let's not be idiots.
That's what I get from this. Not over-reaching or reading. Explain how the bolder part isn't insinuating that Hillary supporters are idiots. You appear to to be okay with calling people idiots, if they support Hillary, but not okay with the crayon analogy if applies to "your people." Hypocrisy in action. I did not read Kath's words that way.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 22:08:01 GMT
I've raised that concern, particularly regarding the nuke button. I'm told that his advisors won't let him do that. He doesn't really have that much power. Everybody would agree that when nukes start flying, everyone loses. It wouldn't happen. Do they have an explanation for what might happen if he pissed off a crazy like Kim Jong-un? There are many countries with leaders that do not have the same safeguards in place that the U.S. does.
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 18, 2016 22:12:10 GMT
I can tell you from my observations and discussions with people, most people believe he's just BS'ing. They don't actually believe he believes any of that and neither do they, it's all for the reaction and drama. I have seen some crazies on TV, but I don't know any of those people, although my daughter tells me my mother's getting a bit fanatical on Facebook. Yet another reason I don't do Facebook. General consensus from what I've heard is they think he's yanking chains. Some of them do want the wall though anyway, although nobody actually believes this will ever happen and there's a lot of rolling eyes and loud sighs when the wall people start talking.
Not where I live! They absolutely believe he will build that wall! And they want him too. And they think Mexico will pay for it. Have you not been listening to the people at his rallies? Have you not been listening to his campaign manager and his surrogates? I don't know who you are talking to, but the people I talk to really believe him. And why would they want a president who BS about his policies? Why would they want a president who says stuff for the reaction and drama? This is no joke! We live in serious times.
What I hear is they believe he will get serious once he stops playing around and will set out to accomplish some of the things he said he would. And therein lies their support. He identifies the concerns of the regular people quite quickly and gives them a voice, he can't be cowed by the media, he will stand up for America, he knows what he's doing financially, he won't play the Congress game, he has no interest in bowing down to anyone, and he believes in the red, white and blue. He stands for the common people and can't be bought out by the rich.
They don't think nothing will happen. They're hoping for some stuff like lowering the national debt, better jobs, better trade deals, getting rid of Obamacare. But the wall? I mean, I've asked, how would you even enforce that? People climb walls, they dig under walls. Once you ask for specifics, other than putting turrets or electric fences or something, there's no way to do it that would ever fly in modern society in this country.
Most of these people are right-leaning conservative, independent, left-leaning (nobody really radical on the far right who think Trump will accomplish everything). Media hype plays a lot into perception as well. The media has taken such an active role that they have themselves become hard to believe in what they report and it's very easy for people to discount anything they find uncomfortable due to the distortion in reporting.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Sept 18, 2016 22:23:18 GMT
At no time did I say that you and other Hillary supporters are idiots. Again, an example of overreading, misinterpreting and applying motive to that which simply does not exist on my end.
I was attempting to explain the way Trump's message likely came across to his supporters given my perspective having grown up in the gun/conservative culture of America. This is my world and the people he is speaking to are my family, my friends, my culture, my neighbors. I feel like I get this. I may not get everything about Trump or why he says or acts in the way he does, but I get the people he talks to and I know why they respond the way they do and they are not unintelligent people. Many of them are quite bright, very motivated, very compassionate, very patriotic, a lot of veterans, police, firefighters, blue-collared workers, and, yes, a few of them might be a bit crazy, but there's crazy everywhere. Long before Donald Trump. I kind of believe all of us have a bit of crazy inside of us somewhere.
These people represent America in all of its glorious differences. The polls have Donald and Hillary neck and neck. Half of our fellow Americans are considering voting for Donald Trump and each one has a different story about why. Let's not do the disservice of comparing them to dull crayons in a coloring box.
I have no dog in this fight. What will be, will be.
Theses are also my people. But this year is different. I'm seeing an "Ugliness" that I have not seen before. Some of the opinions that were hidden in years past, have been brought to the surface. Trump in not bring out the good in people. Same here. I'm a liberal who likes our guns. I've also found out I have siblings that were raised same as I but are now hypocritical, racist, bigoted people, which hurts my heart. I just cannot get over that the fact is that he has NO PLAN, and people are hung ho for him. I hear those same people, family included, who scream about Hillary not being transparent and a liar and I'm saying >>>>look!!! >>>right here, Trump<<<<< is exactly the same way, no transparency on anything substantial or important, a big fat liar daily, and a bully to boot! It is mind boggling that people, whom I thought were intelligent, are buying into this reality TV fake persona for our president.
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 18, 2016 22:25:38 GMT
I've raised that concern, particularly regarding the nuke button. I'm told that his advisors won't let him do that. He doesn't really have that much power. Everybody would agree that when nukes start flying, everyone loses. It wouldn't happen. Do they have an explanation for what might happen if he pissed off a crazy like Kim Jong-un? There are many countries with leaders that do not have the same safeguards in place that the U.S. does.
That hasn't come up in discussion but a good point. I'll bring it up next time and see what the answer is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 22:28:54 GMT
Not where I live! They absolutely believe he will build that wall! And they want him too. And they think Mexico will pay for it. Have you not been listening to the people at his rallies? Have you not been listening to his campaign manager and his surrogates? I don't know who you are talking to, but the people I talk to really believe him. And why would they want a president who BS about his policies? Why would they want a president who says stuff for the reaction and drama? This is no joke! We live in serious times.
What I hear is they believe he will get serious once he stops playing around and will set out to accomplish some of the things he said he would. And therein lies their support. He identifies the concerns of the regular people quite quickly and gives them a voice, he can't be cowed by the media, he will stand up for America, he knows what he's doing financially, he won't play the Congress game, he has no interest in bowing down to anyone, and he believes in the red, white and blue. He stands for the common people and can't be bought out by the rich.
They don't think nothing will happen. They're hoping for some stuff like lowering the national debt, better jobs, better trade deals, getting rid of Obamacare. But the wall? I mean, I've asked, how would you even enforce that? People climb walls, they dig under walls. Once you ask for specifics, other than putting turrets or electric fences or something, there's no way to do it that would ever fly in modern society in this country.
Most of these people are right-leaning conservative, independent, left-leaning (nobody really radical on the far right who think Trump will accomplish everything). Media hype plays a lot into perception as well. The media has taken such an active role that they have themselves become hard to believe in what they report and it's very easy for people to discount anything they find uncomfortable due to the distortion in reporting.
This is fascinating (although in a horrifying kind of way). I never knew 'regular' people wanted such a hateful, bombastic voice/face for their country. Or that so many people would be willing to take someone like Trump so seriously and unquestioningly when he makes wild claims and nonspecific, grandiose, and unattainable promises; yet dismiss his very clear and irrefutable bad behavior and hate speak as media hype. I've always considered myself to be a regular person, but it looks like I'm going to have to re-think that descriptor
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 18, 2016 22:36:37 GMT
And I completely empathize with your indecision. I have felt that way for over a year. I had been hoping that the red stranglehold on my state (thus ensuring that Trump gets the electoral votes) would be weak enough for my vote to count this time around. Once again, it looks like I'm SOL.
It's awful, isn't it? And for some reason, I feel upset with myself about it, that I should know what to do and I don't. I feel bad just in general about the whole thing. Like there's no right answer and whichever way I choose is going to end badly. And I've never not voted. Never. Can I go through this election and not vote? Does that absolve me of guilt if something goes bad or does that make me even more of an accomplice because I didn't exercise my patriotic duty?
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 18, 2016 22:54:14 GMT
What I hear is they believe he will get serious once he stops playing around and will set out to accomplish some of the things he said he would. And therein lies their support. He identifies the concerns of the regular people quite quickly and gives them a voice, he can't be cowed by the media, he will stand up for America, he knows what he's doing financially, he won't play the Congress game, he has no interest in bowing down to anyone, and he believes in the red, white and blue. He stands for the common people and can't be bought out by the rich.
They don't think nothing will happen. They're hoping for some stuff like lowering the national debt, better jobs, better trade deals, getting rid of Obamacare. But the wall? I mean, I've asked, how would you even enforce that? People climb walls, they dig under walls. Once you ask for specifics, other than putting turrets or electric fences or something, there's no way to do it that would ever fly in modern society in this country.
Most of these people are right-leaning conservative, independent, left-leaning (nobody really radical on the far right who think Trump will accomplish everything). Media hype plays a lot into perception as well. The media has taken such an active role that they have themselves become hard to believe in what they report and it's very easy for people to discount anything they find uncomfortable due to the distortion in reporting.
This is fascinating (although in a horrifying kind of way). I never knew 'regular' people wanted such a hateful, bombastic voice/face for their country. Or that so many people would be willing to take someone like Trump so seriously and unquestioningly when he makes wild claims and nonspecific, grandiose, and unattainable promises; yet dismiss his very clear and irrefutable bad behavior and hate speak as media hype. I've always considered myself to be a regular person, but it looks like I'm going to have to re-think that descriptor
It's not what he wants. It's what they want. As much as Trump's slogan has been well hated on the board, for many people, they have lost financially, emotionally, and perhaps even physically from what they had before. And they want it back. In order to do that, a number of issues need to be dealt with. Immigration, trade deals, wages, job growth, health care costs, pride. They think Trump is more likely to get closer to the target than Hillary due to her past record. For now, all Trump speaks are words. The good words outweigh the bad words and if he is actually able to pull some of what he promises off, the rest of the stuff can be overlooked and they will be closer to where they want to be. Great again.
I'm always interested in the different viewpoints and how people get from A to B. It's pretty cool. Thanks for the thoughtful discussion.
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Deleted
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May 20, 2024 21:48:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 22:56:08 GMT
I would think by now Trump would have quit "playing around". And if he should quit "playing around" and become "serious" say tomorrow how do we know how long it will last especially if someone is not "nice" to him.
One only be has to look at his past actions to see the Trump of today isn't much different then how he acted in the past. Look at his public feud with Rosie O'Donell. There is an excerpt in one of his books where he goes on about how all these beautiful women want to date (screw) him. Yes the word "screw" was in the book.
And this stupid birther thing. You can debate from now until the cows come who started in 2007/2008. But he dragged it back in 2011 and even after the President showed his full page birth certificate Trump wouldn't let it go. A year and a half after the birth certificate was released he started up again with a tweet he had a call from a "creditable source" the birth certificate was a fake. And then when it became time go to put this birther nonsense to bed he did it in such away to get press coverage for his new hotel. And in a 33 second statement he managed to convey HE settled birther issue and it was all Hillary's fault. Both lies. Just like his lies about Iraq.
Sorry there is no Trump getting serious. What you see is the real Trump. Just look at his past.
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Deleted
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May 20, 2024 21:48:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 22:57:53 GMT
I think the point he was trying to make is that politicians who want to take away your right to protect yourself depend on guns to protect themselves. They deserve protection while the average citizen does not. Like the old Animal Farm adage: All are equal, some are more equal than others. Just so you know, I'm not advocating Hillary give up her armed guard. I understand the need for her and other candidates to be protected. But she has to understand that her fellow Americans also have the right to protect themselves. The thing is that she doesn't plan to take away the 2nd amendment. That is another of his lies and political tactics. She says "I don't want to repeal the Second Amendment." "I don't want to take your guns away." But, then she says the Heller decision was wrong and that if she becomes President, gun shop owners and gun manufacturers will be held responsible for when one of their guns is used in a crime or an accidental death. Sounds like they'll be sued right out of existence. She's not technically going after the 2nd Amendment itself, but the very essence of what it protects. So, not much of a lie unless you want to focus on his use of the 2nd amendment and you'd have to ignore the essence of what he's saying to do so.
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May 20, 2024 21:48:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 22:58:34 GMT
Ok, thanks for the clarification. So it seems that these Trump people, especially the ones who also believe the ridiculous assertion that Hillary wants to do away with the 2nd amendment, are all about their (more likely, their pundits) chosen interpretations on the candidates. Sure, everyone does that to varying extents, but it's fascinating that so many are unwilling to take Trump at his word and consider the possibility that he means exactly what he says/does when he makes fun of a disabled reporter, or tells his supporters that he'll pay their legal fees when they 'knock the hell out of' protestors, etc. etc. etc. It takes some spectacular mental gymnastics to pooh-pooh and excuse all that away. And I completely empathize with your indecision. I have felt that way for over a year. I had been hoping that the red stranglehold on my state (thus ensuring that Trump gets the electoral votes) would be weak enough for my vote to count this time around. Once again, it looks like I'm SOL.
It's awful, isn't it? And for some reason, I feel upset with myself about it, that I should know what to do and I don't. I feel bad just in general about the whole thing. Like there's no right answer and whichever way I choose is going to end badly. And I've never not voted. Never. Can I go through this election and not vote? Does that absolve me of guilt if something goes bad or does that make me even more of an accomplice because I didn't exercise my patriotic duty?
I have been feeling the exact same way. I've never not voted. I will feel horrible if I don't. And then again, why bother when the electoral college ensures that my vote does not matter even one tiny bit. The level of hopelessness and frustration has never felt more acute than it is this time around. I'm tired of voting out of fear or lesser-of-two-evils kind of pragmatics, but once again, both parties have put me in that position, and I resent the hell out of it. All the 'don't split the vote' guilting is just wrong. The system should not be so messed up and gamed that a third party candidate never has a chance. Campaign and election reform should have happened decades and decades ago. Every time I get worked up enough to try and get involved, I run up on nothing but party bullshit and games. I'm so over it all that I really, really want to just not vote. But I know how wrong I'll feel. I also know how bad I'll feel when I end up voting for someone who is only appealing when up against a dangerous megalomaniac. I will vote in local and Congressionals, no matter what, though. That's where the real changes need to be happening. I'm so frustrated that I'm ready to abolish all political parties. We've already got chaos and madness, so why the hell not?
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Kath
Full Member
Posts: 446
Jun 26, 2014 12:15:31 GMT
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Post by Kath on Sept 18, 2016 23:08:55 GMT
It's awful, isn't it? And for some reason, I feel upset with myself about it, that I should know what to do and I don't. I feel bad just in general about the whole thing. Like there's no right answer and whichever way I choose is going to end badly. And I've never not voted. Never. Can I go through this election and not vote? Does that absolve me of guilt if something goes bad or does that make me even more of an accomplice because I didn't exercise my patriotic duty?
I have been feeling the exact same way. I've never not voted. I will feel horrible if I don't. And then again, why bother when the electoral college ensures that my vote does not matter even one tiny bit. The level of hopelessness and frustration has never felt more acute than it is this time around. I'm tired of voting out of fear or lesser-of-two-evils kind of pragmatics, but once again, both parties have put me in that position, and I resent the hell out of it. All the 'don't split the vote' guilting is just wrong. The system should not be so messed up and gamed that a third party candidate never has a chance. Campaign and election reform should have happened decades and decades ago. Every time I get worked up enough to try and get involved, I run up on nothing but party bullshit and games. I'm so over it all that I really, really want to just not vote. But I know how wrong I'll feel. I also know how bad I'll feel when I end up voting for someone who is only appealing when up against a dangerous megalomaniac. I will vote in local and Congressionals, no matter what, though. That's where the real changes need to be happening. I'm so frustrated that I'm ready to abolish all political parties. We've already got chaos and madness, so why the hell not?
I wish I could give you more than 1 thumbs up. Couldn't agree more with your frustration. I feel the same.
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May 20, 2024 21:48:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 23:15:58 GMT
People screamed that Obama was going to take them away too. It's been eight years and y'all still have your guns. When are you going to stop buying into the nonsense that the NRA is feeding you?ETA: and I come from a family of avid gun owners. My grandfather was a professional trap shooter, all my brothers are former military and hunt regularly and have many guns. Many people are going by Hillary's own words on what she plans to do.
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Deleted
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May 20, 2024 21:48:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 23:18:38 GMT
For now, all Trump speaks are words. The good words outweigh the bad words and if he is actually able to pull some of what he promises off, the rest of the stuff can be overlooked and they will be closer to where they want to be. Great again. This is where I get twitchy. I am hard-pressed to find any (and I do mean any) good words coming from Trump. And I have limits on what's ok and what's not when it comes to 'just words.' Blatant hate-speak and bigotry are not ok with me, and I can't think of an instance where they would be. I can agree that our country faces many issues that need to be handled and improved. I just don't think it's all because we've 'let other countries walk all over us' or that we have strayed too far from (the Christian, of course) God, etc, To me, that kind of talk is clearly someone trying to manipulate my ignorance*, fears, and emotions in order to gain power and/or wealth for himself. It's really easy to let fears of unknown and unfamiliar cultures and religions get out of hand. Also, we all tend to wax nostalgic for the 'good ol' days.' Time marches on no matter how much we wish we could stop it. Donald Trump is not a pied piper who can make us feel all safe and cozy like we did when we were kids or young adults. Especially since we all tend to look back on earlier times with rose-colored glasses and concentrate on what felt really good back then as opposed to all the turmoil and craziness that was actually there. It really is fascinating to see what some are willing to excuse and rationalize away as long as they're being told what they want to hear. Terrifying, but fascinating. *I mean ignorance in its most literal sense. The absence of knowledge of or experience with something
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Deleted
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May 20, 2024 21:48:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 23:23:47 GMT
That was an interesting article, krazyscrapper . Thanks for sharing it. But I did want to say that you might be mistaken in your comment that for 200 years, the 2nd Amendment was never interpreted to mean individual gun ownership rights. According to this article in The Atlantic, the writers of the 14 Amendment specifically mentioned gun ownership as a right given to freed blacks. I read this article a while back, but just found it again to go along with our discussion. I found it so interesting that previous attempts at gun control were a means to keep black people from exercising their freedoms, and that the Black Panthers were given credit with starting the modern gun rights movement. I think it goes to show that differences in how the 2nd Amendment have been interpreted are not just modern 20th century differences.I also don't agree that what you label common sense gun regulations won't lead to higher costs for potential gun owners, nor is it hysteria to think so. Legislation has been proposed to tax both guns and ammo as a way to keep them out of the hands of citizens. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Hillary has supported a high tax on the sale of guns in the past. She has not given any indication that she's changed her mind about that. Very good point and thanks for sharing that and the article.
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