Deleted
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May 20, 2024 21:18:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2016 23:20:48 GMT
Anyone who thinks if you are "strong" you are somehow above mental illness is foolish. That's no more accurate than saying if you're "strong" you won't get cancer. It just doesn't work that way.
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Post by littlemama on Oct 3, 2016 23:32:06 GMT
I tried really hard to see how this could be meant anyway other than insulting and demeaning to those who have fought for our country. I really did. I have read the article and the quotes several times before posting.
As the DIL of a combat wounded/disabled veteran who suffered from PTSD for his entire adult life AND was one of the strongest men I have ever had the privilege of knowing, I can't see this meaning anything that is not completely offensive. My FIL often spoke with veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan about his battle with PTSD. At his funeral, one man shared with dh that his dad had pulled him back from the brink of suicide. Either this man or someone else left a bronze star at the altar. That man was not weak. My FIL was not weak. (He died of causes related to Agent Orange exposure, not suicide, but it was a long 4 months until cause of death was determined and there were many rumors in the small town where he lived.)
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Post by Merge on Oct 3, 2016 23:54:03 GMT
It's really sad to watch the Trump fans try to explain this one away. At some point you just have to admit your candidate is a giant asshole and move on.
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Deleted
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May 20, 2024 21:18:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 0:02:18 GMT
I'm just saying that he wasn't necessarily saying that the ones that have PTS are weak, just normal. But the biggest problem here is with the stigma of seeking mental health treatment and trying to get help to the people who need it. By saying some are "strong" there is an implied opposite of "weak" and that reinforces that only those who "can't handle it" are some how deficient...and those who need help will not seek out what is available. All of these words 'weak,''strong,' 'normal'...they are all words that lay a value on people and there is no amount of parsing his words that change how they could be interpreted by someone who is already struggling with feeling 'weak' in an 'industry' (for lack of a better discription) where being 'strong' is one of the top virtues and doesn't want any one to know that they are suffering for fear of them being perceived as not living up to the military ethos. The man often says and does things that I just can't understand or find any rational explanation for, but there are times when it's clear to me he didn't mean it the way people want to take it. This is one of those times. I honestly don't believe he took the time to go speak to veterans to insult them or their buddies to their face. Or that this is any proof that he doesn't support the military. I believe in Trump's mind what he said about McCain was in retaliation for McCain calling his supporters "crazies". Granted it was a completely 8th grade boy way to respond and not in the least bit presidential, but it doesn't add up to he doesn't support the military. Same with the Gold Star Family. I believe in his mind he was defending himself against their personal attack, not intending to insult the military. Though again, not the least bit Presidential. There are a lot of things I just don't get about his words and actions, they defy any sort of logic for a man of his age and stature, and I can certainly understand the outrage. Yet there are times when I also don't get the not only willingness to see everything single thing he says and does as nefarious, but the absolute refusal to see it any other way. To give the benefit of the doubt to one candidate, even in the absence of doubt, but not apply even a modicum of that to the other candidate is completely illogical to me. YMMV of course.
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Post by elaine on Oct 4, 2016 0:17:40 GMT
But the biggest problem here is with the stigma of seeking mental health treatment and trying to get help to the people who need it. By saying some are "strong" there is an implied opposite of "weak" and that reinforces that only those who "can't handle it" are some how deficient...and those who need help will not seek out what is available. All of these words 'weak,''strong,' 'normal'...they are all words that lay a value on people and there is no amount of parsing his words that change how they could be interpreted by someone who is already struggling with feeling 'weak' in an 'industry' (for lack of a better discription) where being 'strong' is one of the top virtues and doesn't want any one to know that they are suffering for fear of them being perceived as not living up to the military ethos. The man often says and does things that I just can't understand or find any rational explanation for, but there are times when it's clear to me he didn't mean it the way people want to take it. This is one of those times. I honestly don't believe he took the time to go speak to veterans to insult them or their buddies to their face. Or that this is any proof that he doesn't support the military. I believe in Trump's mind what he said about McCain was in retaliation for McCain calling his supporters "crazies". Granted it was a completely 8th grade boy way to respond and not in the least bit presidential, but it doesn't add up to he doesn't support the military. Same with the Gold Star Family. I believe in his mind he was defending himself against their personal attack, not intending to insult the military. Though again, not the least bit Presidential. There are a lot of things I just don't get about his words and actions, they defy any sort of logic for a man of his age and stature, and I can certainly understand the outrage. Yet there are times when I also don't get the not only willingness to see everything single thing he says and does as nefarious, but the absolute refusal to see it any other way. To give the benefit of the doubt to one candidate, even in the absence of doubt, but not apply even a modicum of that to the other candidate is completely illogical to me. YMMV of course. But, even if he was doing it to defend his own honor in ALL those cases, the bottom line is that he will time and time again throw military service people and their families under the bus in order to defend his ego. It is not only not presidential, it is the antithesis of Commander in Chief. The people you lead and their honor should "trump" the Commander in Chief's ego/honor every single time. And if he doesn't mean what he says a number of times in a number of different ways, why would anyone want such a piss poor communicator as President?
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scrapngranny
Pearl Clutcher
Only slightly senile
Posts: 4,763
Jun 25, 2014 23:21:30 GMT
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Post by scrapngranny on Oct 4, 2016 0:25:01 GMT
Okay, I'll play along. I will give it to you, he decided to go off script and it came out wrong, we misunderstood him. This happens very frequently when he speaks. Is this a man qualified to be president? He would have the ability to turn the world upside down with one misspoken sentence.
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Post by tlsmi on Oct 4, 2016 0:29:40 GMT
:"It's really sad to watch the Trump fans try to explain this one away. At some point you just have to admit your candidate is a giant asshole and move on." - the mental gymnastics needed to explain what he MEANT to say ...SMH I can't go to war my feet hurt - Trump, probably ( 5 defermants with heel spurs . he forgot which foot) 'Avoiding std's in NYC was my own persona! Vietnam '- Trump for real linklink
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Deleted
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May 20, 2024 21:18:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 0:34:43 GMT
The man often says and does things that I just can't understand or find any rational explanation for, but there are times when it's clear to me he didn't mean it the way people want to take it. This is one of those times. I honestly don't believe he took the time to go speak to veterans to insult them or their buddies to their face. Or that this is any proof that he doesn't support the military. I believe in Trump's mind what he said about McCain was in retaliation for McCain calling his supporters "crazies". Granted it was a completely 8th grade boy way to respond and not in the least bit presidential, but it doesn't add up to he doesn't support the military. Same with the Gold Star Family. I believe in his mind he was defending himself against their personal attack, not intending to insult the military. Though again, not the least bit Presidential. There are a lot of things I just don't get about his words and actions, they defy any sort of logic for a man of his age and stature, and I can certainly understand the outrage. Yet there are times when I also don't get the not only willingness to see everything single thing he says and does as nefarious, but the absolute refusal to see it any other way. To give the benefit of the doubt to one candidate, even in the absence of doubt, but not apply even a modicum of that to the other candidate is completely illogical to me. YMMV of course. But, even if he was doing it to defend his own honor in ALL those cases, the bottom line is that he will time and time again throw military service people and their families under the bus in order to defend his ego. It is not only not presidential, it is the antithesis of Commander in Chief. The people you lead and their honor should "trump" the Commander in Chief's ego/honor every single time. And if he doesn't mean what he says a number of times in a number of different ways, why would anyone want such a piss poor communicator as President? I don't disagree. At all. I just happen to feel the same about Hillary's issues.
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Post by utpea on Oct 4, 2016 0:36:52 GMT
Trump is a tool, pure & simple. He continually lives up to that name.
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eleezybeth
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,784
Jun 28, 2014 20:42:01 GMT
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Post by eleezybeth on Oct 4, 2016 0:47:45 GMT
He is dangerous. Research is pretty clear on the impact of media and suicides - specifically military stigma in the media.
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Post by seikashaven on Oct 4, 2016 1:03:21 GMT
I love someone who suffers from serious PTSD (not military but a first responder). He is only alive today because of a series of freak incidents that led to a diagnosis and proper treatment. PTSD ended his otherwise brilliant career but it came so close to costing his life. I don't think Trump was necessarily intending to be disparaging to veterans suffering from PTSD (and that hurts me to say since I can't stand the man). However, his careless words or poor phrasing is downright dangerous. There is already so much stigma surrounding mental health issues in general and especially in the military. Overcoming that stigma is one of the biggest reasons veterans do not seek help and instead die by their own hands. To speak about it so cavalierly, even if unintentionally, serves to strengthen that stigma and ultimately create additional obstacles to those suffering. He can't just shrug that off and blame the media. Humans of New York did a really powerful series called Invisible Wounds while fundraising for The Head Strong Project. It was heart breaking and inspiring to hear the various stories of pain, triumph and recovery. One of the head clinicians of the program gave such a great quote about PTSD. “I understand that it’s not sexy to talk about treatment. But the maddening thing about PTSD is that it’s completely fucking fixable. The narrative about it has got to change. PTSD is not Uncle Joe from Vietnam. It’s not homelessness. It’s not a heroin addiction. It’s not the end of the world and it’s certainly not suicide. PTSD is an anxiety disorder and we can treat it. But you’ve got to get help. In the military, you hear things like ‘shake it off’ or ‘rub dirt on it.’ And those are great messages for people at war. But you’re home now. You’re back with your families and the warrior mindset is no longer appropriate. If your nervous system is broken, it needs to be fixed. Just like a broken leg needs to be fixed. It’s that simple. You may have served with guys who don’t have issues-- that’s great for them. But that doesn’t mean they are stronger than you. It means they don’t have the same nervous system as you. It’s not weakness. It’s science. And it can be fixed. PTSD results from an overactive sympathetic nervous system. It’s the same part of the brain that kept our ancestors alive when lions jumped out of the bushes. It’s ‘fight or flight.’ If a soldier’s mind stays in that mode for too long, it doesn’t always come back. Everyone expects veterans to return to normal when they come back home. The kids are so excited that Daddy’s back. Their spouse wants them to get a good job, and join the rotary, and save for a bigger house. But it’s only the veteran’s body that has returned to safety. Their nervous system is still living in a dangerous place. PTSD creates the feeling that something terrible is always around the corner. It can cause anxiety, confusion, and isolation from loved ones. But worst of all, it can make it seem like things will never get better. Most of my clients report a sense of foreshortened future. And that’s the first symptom I treat. Because the stakes could not be higher. Everything else can wait. First and foremost, we’re a suicide prevention program. Trauma causes the brain to malfunction. During a traumatic experience, memories cannot be processed correctly. So a person with PTSD is still carrying those traumatic experiences around in their body. Because those experiences were never filed away into the ‘past tense,’ the brain continues to operate as if the trauma is happening in the ‘present tense.’ It’s like a computer with a program that’s running constantly in the background. The idle is way too high. And it’s an exhausting way to live. So those memories need to be revisited and processed. And we have an amazing way of doing that. It’s called EMDR. I won’t explain it here, but it works. It takes away symptoms. It won’t turn you into a yogi who sits on the beach. But it will take away panic attacks. It will take away insomnia. And it will take away suicidal idealizations. We aren’t changing anyone. But we are getting people back to their best self.” I thought that was a simple and concise was of describing PTSD. We need to do everything we can to support veterans transitioning back into civilian life and we cannot make light of the mental health issues some of them face. Words are important and lives are at stake.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Oct 4, 2016 1:26:17 GMT
Why is it every time Trump speaks it is taken out of context, people are out to get him, and his words have to be explained. Yes, that happens to everybody at one point or another. But it seems to happen all the time with him. And given his previous disparaging remarks about the military, it's not hard to look negatively on what he has said this time. He lost all credibility and benefit of the doubt a long time ago. And for a man who could easily get us in a number of military conflicts, it scares me that he doesn't seem to truly understand PTSD is or how it affects our servicemen and women.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 20, 2024 21:18:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 1:42:24 GMT
I love someone who suffers from serious PTSD (not military but a first responder). He is only alive today because of a series of freak incidents that led to a diagnosis and proper treatment. PTSD ended his otherwise brilliant career but it came so close to costing his life. I don't think Trump was necessarily intending to be disparaging to veterans suffering from PTSD (and that hurts me to say since I can't stand the man). However, his careless words or poor phrasing is downright dangerous. There is already so much stigma surrounding mental health issues in general and especially in the military. Overcoming that stigma is one of the biggest reasons veterans do not seek help and instead die by their own hands. To speak about it so cavalierly, even if unintentionally, serves to strengthen that stigma and ultimately create additional obstacles to those suffering. He can't just shrug that off and blame the media. Humans of New York did a really powerful series called Invisible Wounds while fundraising for The Head Strong Project. It was heart breaking and inspiring to hear the various stories of pain, triumph and recovery. One of the head clinicians of the program gave such a great quote about PTSD. “I understand that it’s not sexy to talk about treatment. But the maddening thing about PTSD is that it’s completely fucking fixable. The narrative about it has got to change. PTSD is not Uncle Joe from Vietnam. It’s not homelessness. It’s not a heroin addiction. It’s not the end of the world and it’s certainly not suicide. PTSD is an anxiety disorder and we can treat it. But you’ve got to get help. In the military, you hear things like ‘shake it off’ or ‘rub dirt on it.’ And those are great messages for people at war. But you’re home now. You’re back with your families and the warrior mindset is no longer appropriate. If your nervous system is broken, it needs to be fixed. Just like a broken leg needs to be fixed. It’s that simple. You may have served with guys who don’t have issues-- that’s great for them. But that doesn’t mean they are stronger than you. It means they don’t have the same nervous system as you. It’s not weakness. It’s science. And it can be fixed. PTSD results from an overactive sympathetic nervous system. It’s the same part of the brain that kept our ancestors alive when lions jumped out of the bushes. It’s ‘fight or flight.’ If a soldier’s mind stays in that mode for too long, it doesn’t always come back. Everyone expects veterans to return to normal when they come back home. The kids are so excited that Daddy’s back. Their spouse wants them to get a good job, and join the rotary, and save for a bigger house. But it’s only the veteran’s body that has returned to safety. Their nervous system is still living in a dangerous place. PTSD creates the feeling that something terrible is always around the corner. It can cause anxiety, confusion, and isolation from loved ones. But worst of all, it can make it seem like things will never get better. Most of my clients report a sense of foreshortened future. And that’s the first symptom I treat. Because the stakes could not be higher. Everything else can wait. First and foremost, we’re a suicide prevention program. Trauma causes the brain to malfunction. During a traumatic experience, memories cannot be processed correctly. So a person with PTSD is still carrying those traumatic experiences around in their body. Because those experiences were never filed away into the ‘past tense,’ the brain continues to operate as if the trauma is happening in the ‘present tense.’ It’s like a computer with a program that’s running constantly in the background. The idle is way too high. And it’s an exhausting way to live. So those memories need to be revisited and processed. And we have an amazing way of doing that. It’s called EMDR. I won’t explain it here, but it works. It takes away symptoms. It won’t turn you into a yogi who sits on the beach. But it will take away panic attacks. It will take away insomnia. And it will take away suicidal idealizations. We aren’t changing anyone. But we are getting people back to their best self.” I thought that was a simple and concise was of describing PTSD. We need to do everything we can to support veterans transitioning back into civilian life and we cannot make light of the mental health issues some of them face. Words are important and lives are at stake. Thank you for sharing that. It's very helpful for understanding. So true. I heard Bush talk about it when he was riding for the cause and he was saying there's a campaign to drop the D from PTSD, because it really isn't a disorder, it's a normal human brain function (as described in your post).
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Oct 4, 2016 1:56:02 GMT
Anyone who thinks if you are "strong" you are somehow above mental illness is foolish. That's no more accurate than saying if you're "strong" you won't get cancer. It just doesn't work that way. Yup, strong. Donald Trump is obsessed with strength Strength STRENGTH. Everything he does is to shine a light on strength. Dominance. Stamina. He despises weakness. His overall schtick is to portray our country as weak so that he can take credit for making it stong again...make all of us strong again. He alone knows the solution to what ails us...the antidote to weakness. Men are strong. Women bleed. Those beneath his contempt are openly mocked. Those he's embarrassed for - POWs, PTSD sufferers - are dismissed oh-so-very vaguely. He's compared us to his ideal of himself and we have come out lacking. The time has long since passed for giving him the benefit of the doubt about what he means.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,979
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Oct 4, 2016 2:08:53 GMT
I binge watched The Circus over the weekend and I also read an article on Politico (about the SNL newscast guys) both of which left me feeling a little bit more sympathetic towards Trump than I ever have. Left me wondering why he is playing this horrible, seemingly soulless role when maybe that's not who he is, feeling a little bit sorry for a man who seems sincerely just to want to be liked yet has no idea how to authentically connect with people when he's not playing at being this caricature which attracts the very worst of humanity.
And then he has days like today. When he speaks off the cuff, off script, just stream of consciousness - "you guys here in this room giving me love are strong." (None of them could possibly be suffering from PTSD of course.) Anything less is weak. It's how he sees the world. It's damaging to the soldiers who are struggling to find the strength to seek help, it's stigmatizing in a way that is no longer socially acceptable, and it's completely ignorant of the actual science behind trauma which as a man seeking the highest office in the land, he ought to at least have as much knowledge as women on a scrapbooking message board. I'm not interested in playing around with armchair diagnoses of this man but he'd do well to remember that those who live in glass houses shouldn't be casting aspersions on others suffering from mental illness.
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jeanninem
Junior Member
Posts: 97
Jun 27, 2014 0:33:42 GMT
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Post by jeanninem on Oct 4, 2016 2:43:20 GMT
But the biggest problem here is with the stigma of seeking mental health treatment and trying to get help to the people who need it. By saying some are "strong" there is an implied opposite of "weak" and that reinforces that only those who "can't handle it" are some how deficient...and those who need help will not seek out what is available. All of these words 'weak,''strong,' 'normal'...they are all words that lay a value on people and there is no amount of parsing his words that change how they could be interpreted by someone who is already struggling with feeling 'weak' in an 'industry' (for lack of a better discription) where being 'strong' is one of the top virtues and doesn't want any one to know that they are suffering for fear of them being perceived as not living up to the military ethos. The man often says and does things that I just can't understand or find any rational explanation for, but there are times when it's clear to me he didn't mean it the way people want to take it. This is one of those times. I honestly don't believe he took the time to go speak to veterans to insult them or their buddies to their face. Or that this is any proof that he doesn't support the military. I believe in Trump's mind what he said about McCain was in retaliation for McCain calling his supporters "crazies". Granted it was a completely 8th grade boy way to respond and not in the least bit presidential, but it doesn't add up to he doesn't support the military. Same with the Gold Star Family. I believe in his mind he was defending himself against their personal attack, not intending to insult the military. Though again, not the least bit Presidential. There are a lot of things I just don't get about his words and actions, they defy any sort of logic for a man of his age and stature, and I can certainly understand the outrage. Yet there are times when I also don't get the not only willingness to see everything single thing he says and does as nefarious, but the absolute refusal to see it any other way. To give the benefit of the doubt to one candidate, even in the absence of doubt, but not apply even a modicum of that to the other candidate is completely illogical to me. YMMV of course. Is there anything, anything at all that you don't feel the need to rationalize for this man? Anything? What can he say that you will actually take at face value? You do know that he means to say the words that come out of his mouth. He means to say them. They are not accidental babble. He says whatever the fuck he wants and then his "explainers" like Christie and Guiliani try and soften or rationalize or explain what he meant to say. They are idiots. Stop. He is a grown man that needs no translation. He is not a 2 years old whose parents only understand what he is saying. We ALL know what he means. He actually means to say the awful things. He is a horrid, narcissistic freak. Just stop. You want to like him for whatever reason. While I don't get it, that's your choice and all the veterans he mocks fought for you and me to have it. But please stop explaining him. Just stop.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 4, 2016 2:59:35 GMT
Where are all of the veterans and generals that are endorsing him? He keeps saying there are many, many of them but so far I haven't seen any on news outlets supporting him? I liked his statement the other day that "if the reporters say 'sources say' but don't give the sources, that means it is made up and there are no sources". Seems to me that he is the master of saying things like "sources say" or "many people have told me" without giving any info to back it up.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 4, 2016 3:13:10 GMT
I love someone who suffers from serious PTSD (not military but a first responder). He is only alive today because of a series of freak incidents that led to a diagnosis and proper treatment. PTSD ended his otherwise brilliant career but it came so close to costing his life. I don't think Trump was necessarily intending to be disparaging to veterans suffering from PTSD (and that hurts me to say since I can't stand the man). However, his careless words or poor phrasing is downright dangerous. There is already so much stigma surrounding mental health issues in general and especially in the military. Overcoming that stigma is one of the biggest reasons veterans do not seek help and instead die by their own hands. To speak about it so cavalierly, even if unintentionally, serves to strengthen that stigma and ultimately create additional obstacles to those suffering. He can't just shrug that off and blame the media. Humans of New York did a really powerful series called Invisible Wounds while fundraising for The Head Strong Project. It was heart breaking and inspiring to hear the various stories of pain, triumph and recovery. One of the head clinicians of the program gave such a great quote about PTSD. “I understand that it’s not sexy to talk about treatment. But the maddening thing about PTSD is that it’s completely fucking fixable. The narrative about it has got to change. PTSD is not Uncle Joe from Vietnam. It’s not homelessness. It’s not a heroin addiction. It’s not the end of the world and it’s certainly not suicide. PTSD is an anxiety disorder and we can treat it. But you’ve got to get help. In the military, you hear things like ‘shake it off’ or ‘rub dirt on it.’ And those are great messages for people at war. But you’re home now. You’re back with your families and the warrior mindset is no longer appropriate. If your nervous system is broken, it needs to be fixed. Just like a broken leg needs to be fixed. It’s that simple. You may have served with guys who don’t have issues-- that’s great for them. But that doesn’t mean they are stronger than you. It means they don’t have the same nervous system as you. It’s not weakness. It’s science. And it can be fixed. PTSD results from an overactive sympathetic nervous system. It’s the same part of the brain that kept our ancestors alive when lions jumped out of the bushes. It’s ‘fight or flight.’ If a soldier’s mind stays in that mode for too long, it doesn’t always come back. Everyone expects veterans to return to normal when they come back home. The kids are so excited that Daddy’s back. Their spouse wants them to get a good job, and join the rotary, and save for a bigger house. But it’s only the veteran’s body that has returned to safety. Their nervous system is still living in a dangerous place. PTSD creates the feeling that something terrible is always around the corner. It can cause anxiety, confusion, and isolation from loved ones. But worst of all, it can make it seem like things will never get better. Most of my clients report a sense of foreshortened future. And that’s the first symptom I treat. Because the stakes could not be higher. Everything else can wait. First and foremost, we’re a suicide prevention program. Trauma causes the brain to malfunction. During a traumatic experience, memories cannot be processed correctly. So a person with PTSD is still carrying those traumatic experiences around in their body. Because those experiences were never filed away into the ‘past tense,’ the brain continues to operate as if the trauma is happening in the ‘present tense.’ It’s like a computer with a program that’s running constantly in the background. The idle is way too high. And it’s an exhausting way to live. So those memories need to be revisited and processed. And we have an amazing way of doing that. It’s called EMDR. I won’t explain it here, but it works. It takes away symptoms. It won’t turn you into a yogi who sits on the beach. But it will take away panic attacks. It will take away insomnia. And it will take away suicidal idealizations. We aren’t changing anyone. But we are getting people back to their best self.” I thought that was a simple and concise was of describing PTSD. We need to do everything we can to support veterans transitioning back into civilian life and we cannot make light of the mental health issues some of them face. Words are important and lives are at stake. Thank you for sharing that. It's very helpful for understanding. So true. I heard Bush talk about it when he was riding for the cause and he was saying there's a campaign to drop the D from PTSD, because it really isn't a disorder, it's a normal human brain function (as described in your post). According to the medical model that mental health professionals work under, the term "disorder" is part of what separates a typical stress reaction (or anxiety, depression, disruptive behavior, etc) from something that is out of the ordinary, more severe, causes more impairment, and such. People are diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Major Depressive Disorder not simply "anxiety" or "depression". Bipolar Disorder, Panic Disorder, personality disorder, Etc are some other examples. The term "disorder" has a purpose and is not limited to PTSD. There are also specific criteria that need to be met to diagnose the above disorders. Being in a dangerous situation by itself is not enough to diagnose PTSD.
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flute4peace
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,757
Jul 3, 2014 14:38:35 GMT
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Post by flute4peace on Oct 4, 2016 3:16:04 GMT
I love someone who suffers from serious PTSD (not military but a first responder). He is only alive today because of a series of freak incidents that led to a diagnosis and proper treatment. PTSD ended his otherwise brilliant career but it came so close to costing his life. I don't think Trump was necessarily intending to be disparaging to veterans suffering from PTSD (and that hurts me to say since I can't stand the man). However, his careless words or poor phrasing is downright dangerous. There is already so much stigma surrounding mental health issues in general and especially in the military. Overcoming that stigma is one of the biggest reasons veterans do not seek help and instead die by their own hands. To speak about it so cavalierly, even if unintentionally, serves to strengthen that stigma and ultimately create additional obstacles to those suffering. He can't just shrug that off and blame the media. Humans of New York did a really powerful series called Invisible Wounds while fundraising for The Head Strong Project. It was heart breaking and inspiring to hear the various stories of pain, triumph and recovery. One of the head clinicians of the program gave such a great quote about PTSD. “I understand that it’s not sexy to talk about treatment. But the maddening thing about PTSD is that it’s completely fucking fixable. The narrative about it has got to change. PTSD is not Uncle Joe from Vietnam. It’s not homelessness. It’s not a heroin addiction. It’s not the end of the world and it’s certainly not suicide. PTSD is an anxiety disorder and we can treat it. But you’ve got to get help. In the military, you hear things like ‘shake it off’ or ‘rub dirt on it.’ And those are great messages for people at war. But you’re home now. You’re back with your families and the warrior mindset is no longer appropriate. If your nervous system is broken, it needs to be fixed. Just like a broken leg needs to be fixed. It’s that simple. You may have served with guys who don’t have issues-- that’s great for them. But that doesn’t mean they are stronger than you. It means they don’t have the same nervous system as you. It’s not weakness. It’s science. And it can be fixed. PTSD results from an overactive sympathetic nervous system. It’s the same part of the brain that kept our ancestors alive when lions jumped out of the bushes. It’s ‘fight or flight.’ If a soldier’s mind stays in that mode for too long, it doesn’t always come back. Everyone expects veterans to return to normal when they come back home. The kids are so excited that Daddy’s back. Their spouse wants them to get a good job, and join the rotary, and save for a bigger house. But it’s only the veteran’s body that has returned to safety. Their nervous system is still living in a dangerous place. PTSD creates the feeling that something terrible is always around the corner. It can cause anxiety, confusion, and isolation from loved ones. But worst of all, it can make it seem like things will never get better. Most of my clients report a sense of foreshortened future. And that’s the first symptom I treat. Because the stakes could not be higher. Everything else can wait. First and foremost, we’re a suicide prevention program. Trauma causes the brain to malfunction. During a traumatic experience, memories cannot be processed correctly. So a person with PTSD is still carrying those traumatic experiences around in their body. Because those experiences were never filed away into the ‘past tense,’ the brain continues to operate as if the trauma is happening in the ‘present tense.’ It’s like a computer with a program that’s running constantly in the background. The idle is way too high. And it’s an exhausting way to live. So those memories need to be revisited and processed. And we have an amazing way of doing that. It’s called EMDR. I won’t explain it here, but it works. It takes away symptoms. It won’t turn you into a yogi who sits on the beach. But it will take away panic attacks. It will take away insomnia. And it will take away suicidal idealizations. We aren’t changing anyone. But we are getting people back to their best self.” I thought that was a simple and concise was of describing PTSD. We need to do everything we can to support veterans transitioning back into civilian life and we cannot make light of the mental health issues some of them face. Words are important and lives are at stake. Wow! Thank you for sharing this. I'm goi g to fwd it on to a friend who I believe could benefit from it, if that's ok?
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Post by seikashaven on Oct 4, 2016 3:28:14 GMT
Wow! Thank you for sharing this. I'm goi g to fwd it on to a friend who I believe could benefit from it, if that's ok? Please do. I hope that it helps.
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Post by elaine on Oct 4, 2016 3:43:22 GMT
Thank you for sharing that. It's very helpful for understanding. So true. I heard Bush talk about it when he was riding for the cause and he was saying there's a campaign to drop the D from PTSD, because it really isn't a disorder, it's a normal human brain function (as described in your post). According to the medical model that mental health professionals work under, the term "disorder" is part of what separates a typical stress reaction (or anxiety, depression, disruptive behavior, etc) from something that is out of the ordinary, more severe, causes more impairment, and such. People are diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Major Depressive Disorder not simply "anxiety" or "depression". Bipolar Disorder, Panic Disorder, personality disorder, Etc are some other examples. The term "disorder" has a purpose and is not limited to PTSD. There are also specific criteria that need to be met to diagnose the above disorders. Being in a dangerous situation by itself is not enough to diagnose PTSD. Yes. And my first thought that trying to popularize dropping the "D" is a back door to take away insurance coverage for mental health treatment of PTSD. Most (all?) mental health coverage doesn't cover issues like "stress," or simple "anxiety" - it will only cover treatment for full-fledged "disorders" with diagnostic codes in the DSM. So, for example, if you are anxious from time to time but don't meet the diagnostic criteria for an anxiety disorder, your insurance won't cover much, if anything, in the way of treatment by a mental health professional and instead you get to talk with your primary care physician about it when you are in for another covered issue. I think campaigning to drop the "D" won't help those with PTSD. Making mental health treatment more readily available, better covered, and less stigmatizing will probably serve them better.
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Deleted
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May 20, 2024 21:18:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 4:33:39 GMT
The man often says and does things that I just can't understand or find any rational explanation for, but there are times when it's clear to me he didn't mean it the way people want to take it. This is one of those times. I honestly don't believe he took the time to go speak to veterans to insult them or their buddies to their face. Or that this is any proof that he doesn't support the military. I believe in Trump's mind what he said about McCain was in retaliation for McCain calling his supporters "crazies". Granted it was a completely 8th grade boy way to respond and not in the least bit presidential, but it doesn't add up to he doesn't support the military. Same with the Gold Star Family. I believe in his mind he was defending himself against their personal attack, not intending to insult the military. Though again, not the least bit Presidential. There are a lot of things I just don't get about his words and actions, they defy any sort of logic for a man of his age and stature, and I can certainly understand the outrage. Yet there are times when I also don't get the not only willingness to see everything single thing he says and does as nefarious, but the absolute refusal to see it any other way. To give the benefit of the doubt to one candidate, even in the absence of doubt, but not apply even a modicum of that to the other candidate is completely illogical to me. YMMV of course. Is there anything, anything at all that you don't feel the need to rationalize for this man? Anything? What can he say that you will actually take at face value? You do know that he means to say the words that come out of his mouth. He means to say them. They are not accidental babble. He says whatever the fuck he wants and then his "explainers" like Christie and Guiliani try and soften or rationalize or explain what he meant to say. They are idiots. Stop. He is a grown man that needs no translation. He is not a 2 years old whose parents only understand what he is saying. We ALL know what he means. He actually means to say the awful things. He is a horrid, narcissistic freak. Just stop. You want to like him for whatever reason. While I don't get it, that's your choice and all the veterans he mocks fought for you and me to have it. But please stop explaining him. Just stop. That would probably be all of the issues in the other 375,000,000 out of 375,000,005 threads started about him. And I'm not rationalizing, just looking at human nature and calling it like I see it, as several others have done in each of those threads, but I don't see you telling them to stop. Don't confuse the occasional occurrence of understanding where he's coming from and finding that Hillary's issues often parallel his issues with my liking him. Please don't tell me to stop giving my point of view here. Just don't.
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Deleted
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May 20, 2024 21:18:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 4:59:19 GMT
Thank you for sharing that. It's very helpful for understanding. So true. I heard Bush talk about it when he was riding for the cause and he was saying there's a campaign to drop the D from PTSD, because it really isn't a disorder, it's a normal human brain function (as described in your post). According to the medical model that mental health professionals work under, the term "disorder" is part of what separates a typical stress reaction (or anxiety, depression, disruptive behavior, etc) from something that is out of the ordinary, more severe, causes more impairment, and such. People are diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Major Depressive Disorder not simply "anxiety" or "depression". Bipolar Disorder, Panic Disorder, personality disorder, Etc are some other examples. The term "disorder" has a purpose and is not limited to PTSD. There are also specific criteria that need to be met to diagnose the above disorders. Being in a dangerous situation by itself is not enough to diagnose PTSD. Thanks for the additional information it is interesting and something I wasn't aware of. I just thought what George W was saying was an interesting thought process and thought I'd share it. You may not have meant it to be helpful to me, in particular, but thanks anyway.
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Post by elaine on Oct 4, 2016 5:14:33 GMT
According to the medical model that mental health professionals work under, the term "disorder" is part of what separates a typical stress reaction (or anxiety, depression, disruptive behavior, etc) from something that is out of the ordinary, more severe, causes more impairment, and such. People are diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Major Depressive Disorder not simply "anxiety" or "depression". Bipolar Disorder, Panic Disorder, personality disorder, Etc are some other examples. The term "disorder" has a purpose and is not limited to PTSD. There are also specific criteria that need to be met to diagnose the above disorders. Being in a dangerous situation by itself is not enough to diagnose PTSD. Thanks for the additional information it is interesting and something I wasn't aware of. I just thought what George W was saying was an interesting thought process and thought I'd share it. You may not have meant it to be helpful to me, in particular, but thanks anyway. I did mean it to be helpful to everyone who cares about our vets, including you. I'm glad that Bush continues to show his dedication to the troops and vets. My guess is that part of the intent was to de-stigmatize the diagnosis, but if one makes the case that post-traumatic stress that is chronic and long-lasting is "normal", then unfortunately insurance companies, who use any excuse to get out of paying, will easily use that as a way out. It is just another side of the coin to consider.
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Deleted
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May 20, 2024 21:18:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 6:17:59 GMT
Thanks for the additional information it is interesting and something I wasn't aware of. I just thought what George W was saying was an interesting thought process and thought I'd share it. You may not have meant it to be helpful to me, in particular, but thanks anyway. I did mean it to be helpful to everyone who cares about our vets, including you. I'm glad that Bush continues to show his dedication to the troops and vets. My guess is that part of the intent was to de-stigmatize the diagnosis, but if one makes the case that post-traumatic stress that is chronic and long-lasting is "normal", then unfortunately insurance companies, who use any excuse to get out of paying, will easily use that as a way out. It is just another side of the coin to consider. That is a good point.
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Post by gar on Oct 4, 2016 6:55:22 GMT
The time has long since passed for giving him the benefit of the doubt about what he means. I have to agree. When it comes to other world leaders (should he get elected) he certainly won't get the luxury of them pondering long and hard over his words to figure out how they might possibly have meant the opposite of what he actually said.
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TheOtherMeg
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,541
Jun 25, 2014 20:58:14 GMT
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Post by TheOtherMeg on Oct 4, 2016 10:28:42 GMT
This blowhard asshat can't communicate clearly on ANY issue. If he can't go off script and retain any kind of coherence, he's not fit for service. There are about 500 other reasons he's not fit to be president, but the inability to communicate like a literate adult is high on the list. SaveSave
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pyccku
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,817
Jun 27, 2014 23:12:07 GMT
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Post by pyccku on Oct 4, 2016 12:15:04 GMT
The time has long since passed for giving him the benefit of the doubt about what he means. I have to agree. When it comes to other world leaders (should he get elected) he certainly won't get the luxury of them pondering long and hard over his words to figure out how they might possibly have meant the opposite of what he actually said. So if he were to attend a conference of negotiations, we'd need two interpreters - one to interpret what he said to what he really MEANT, then the other to interpret it to the foreign language! Save
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Post by monklady123 on Oct 4, 2016 12:37:15 GMT
Where are all of the veterans and generals that are endorsing him? He keeps saying there are many, many of them but so far I haven't seen any on news outlets supporting him? I liked his statement the other day that "if the reporters say 'sources say' but don't give the sources, that means it is made up and there are no sources". Seems to me that he is the master of saying things like "sources say" or "many people have told me" without giving any info to back it up. This reminds me of what we learn when we study family systems theory. I've studied it in relation to conflict in churches, but it applies anywhere. In churches we'll hear, from someone with a complaint, "a lot of people don't like.... [fill in the blank with whatever the complaint is]" or "everyone says....blah blah blah". Yeah? So who are "a lot of people" and who is "everyone"? In a church it's easy enough to say -- if you're aware of the triangulation that's going on -- "thank you, but please tell me how you personally feel" or "I would encourage you to talk to so-and-so about the problem", but a bit harder in the political arena. But that "many people have told me" thing is just another way of saying "I believe such and such". ugh. SaveSave
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Post by beanbuddymom on Oct 4, 2016 13:01:50 GMT
I'm hoping this is the one thing that will finally convince my DH to change his vote. But then I think he might excuse it because he is always telling me about the young next generation that he has to work with/supervise and how they are so much more incapable of handling things.
But given that both DH and my dad went through wars - Persian Gulf for DH, WW2 for my dad - and both had some absolutely horrible, awful stories that I've only heard in small parts, and otherwise completely nothing, it's really awful to hear Trump say awful things especially about war veterans at all. My dad's job WW2 in the navy was to bring the troops into the beaches and then he said he was also responsible to bring them back to the ship - dead, wounded, etc. Some of them had full blown panic attacks, breakdowns, wanting to get back in the boat, screaming, bombs, gunfire, etc. all around. Basically the feeling of the opening scene from Saving Private Ryan. I cannot even imagine anyone not being affected by that. DH dealt with so many things during Persian Gulf it affected him as well, he won't talk about it but one night had a complete cry over something, and told me a little. What you read in history books doesn't tell about what goes on, and people need to know it's an awful situation for them over there. For Trump to call out veterans I have no words. Well I have them but I won't stoop to his level to say them.
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