pyccku
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,817
Jun 27, 2014 23:12:07 GMT
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Post by pyccku on Apr 11, 2017 15:00:50 GMT
Russia isn't communist anymore, and hasn't been for some time. They would not defend NK because of that. They may for other reasons, but not to defend communism. I didn't literally mean that they would defend communist as such, maybe I should have used another word but Putin would side with NK if it came to the crunch. Maybe not as oppressive as the NK leadership and government, but you can hardly compare the freedom allowed to many in Russia to the freedom we have here in the west though. Honestly, I'm not sure if that's the case. Putin would side with NK if it benefited his needs. He's an opportunist, and any alliance he makes isn't for ideological reasons. If siding with NK will weaken the US (and therefore weaken any sanctions imposed by us) he will do so. But if siding with the US would accomplish the goal of lifting sanctions, he would do that instead. If getting the world to side against the US for striking NK would suit his needs, he'll do that. And if staying neutral suits him best, he'll do that. If keeping Kim Jong Un in power keeps China busy and makes it easier for Russia to do whatever they want to do, they'll support that. He and Trump are very alike in this way - what's best for HIM is what he's going to do. The big difference is that Putin may be thinking 4-5 moves out, while Trump reacts quickly without thinking ahead to the end game. But you can be sure that no matter what action is taken by either man, it will be to their benefit.
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Post by peasapie on Apr 11, 2017 15:07:38 GMT
I think we should have learned our lesson about taking out a dictator many times over. The last time it worked was WWII, and if that is Making America Great Again, I think folks will be sadly disillusioned. I did see many say, during the campaign, they would go in and "bomb them back to the stone ages." Such ignorant thinking. There are way too many of these little power grabbers out there to just go in and bomb one's way through. This is where political maneuvering is essential, and unfortunately, we don't have a system in place to manage that right now in the U.S. We should be working with other countries on a political solution, NOT military.
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Post by maryland on Apr 11, 2017 15:38:03 GMT
are you serious. What gives any country, however distasteful their leadership is to others, the right to assassinate another countries leader. Good lord countries can't go round the world and assassinate the leaders of countries that don't happen to align with your beliefs. I'm not defending North Korea's leadership for one second I think he's very unstable but he's not holding the whole world hostage. Have the people of North Korea asked for your help?...do you know that they want your help? There's plenty of people in North Korea that are quite happy with his leadership. Yes, there is great concern about Kim's actions in attempting to build nuclear weapons but assassinating a country's leader isn't the answer. This is how world wars start.
And yes, Russia would come to their aid, not just to piss off the US but because they are also a communist country and no doubt see nothing wrong with his form of oppressive government. And Trump needs to reign in his tweets, he's getting to be as unhinged as Kim of North Korea is. Exactly! Change NK leader to Trump. Would it be okay for them to do it to the US? We have a batshit crazy, unpresidential leader. That was my first thought too!
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Post by gryroagain on Apr 11, 2017 15:56:50 GMT
Oh good gravy, no. Just no. First off the South Koreans sure as he'll do not want it- and they are a major ally, not a 3rd world country we help out as our President seems to think. Neither does China- you think they want a unified (ie pro-US) country on their border? Does Russia? They do not. The real question is "how do you feel about a war with China?" and that is a whole different question. China does not want a war with us! They prop nk up to some extent but they are not in love with them either...and they do not want to go to war over nk. Just as we (should) not want to. Because south Korea does not want too.
The end game here is a crumbling regime that is going to die. South Korea hopes not too soon, absorbing them is ruin to their financial miracle on the Han. But it is going to happen.
He'll, north Korea does not want war, because the leaderships goal is regime survival and that will be over right quick in a war. It's all smoke and mirrors and banging the gong, as it has for the last 60 years now.
This is not an actual thing. Or it shouldn't be an actual thing, but the current administration makes us all uncertain. Surely cooler, better I for Ed heads will prevail. (please say yes, I live in Seoul)
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Post by gryroagain on Apr 11, 2017 15:58:35 GMT
Holy typos batman. Why can't ,y iPad let me type h e l l?!
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Apr 11, 2017 17:10:39 GMT
I will be the first to admit I know very little about North Korea and why the world lets a crazy man hold it hostage. I wonder why we can't get in there and remove him from his leadership role. It appears (again remember I said I know little) that the entire world doesn't approve of his leadership, so is there really anyone who would come to his aid if action was taken? I don't think a huge show of force with this is the way to go. I think it has to be a sneak assassination, but we need to make sure the next person to lead is not batshit crazy. How do we go about doing that? How do we get rid of him and help the people of North Korea at the same time? are you serious. What gives any country, however distasteful their leadership is to others, the right to assassinate another countries leader. Good lord countries can't go round the world and assassinate the leaders of countries that don't happen to align with your beliefs. I'm not defending North Korea's leadership for one second I think he's very unstable but he's not holding the whole world hostage. Have the people of North Korea asked for your help?...do you know that they want your help? There's plenty of people in North Korea that are quite happy with his leadership. Yes, there is great concern about Kim's actions in attempting to build nuclear weapons but assassinating a country's leader isn't the answer. This is how world wars start.
And yes, Russia would come to their aid, not just to piss off the US but because they are also a communist country and no doubt see nothing wrong with his form of oppressive government. And Trump needs to reign in his tweets, he's getting to be as unhinged as Kim of North Korea is. Agreed. It seems that many world leaders distrust and dislike Trump. What if they decided the best course of action was to assassinate him? He doesn't come across as very stable, either.
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Post by roberta on Apr 11, 2017 17:13:41 GMT
Just to answer the subject question - I would not feel anything about a war with NK. I live in the D.C. Area and I would be gone because this would be ground zero.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Apr 11, 2017 17:27:31 GMT
I think it was 2013 he fired off a bunch of tweets to Obama about not starting a war with Syria how the USA can't afford it, it's crazy, USA doesn't need to be in another war, etc, ^^^ The Trump supporter we had dinner with over the weekend had an answer to this... 'well, he wasn't President then, he was just a businessman, and he didn't know everything that Obama did. That's why he changed his mind-- he has access to more secured / military information now that he's President." (oh, and when I brought up the whole 'Obama asked for Congress's approval and they didn't give it' the response I got was, "Obama didn't NEED their approval; he should have gone ahead, and then asked for their approval LATER.") ^^^ so basically, some Trump supporters don't see the hypocrisy of Donald Trump, everything Obama did WAS really wrong, and everything Trump is doing IS actually great. IOKIYAR really IS true.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Apr 12, 2017 7:21:44 GMT
To misuse lucyg 's catchphrase: we are doomed. No matter what the world 's opinion on North K is, I cannot believe it is ok for people on a message board to be advocating assassination. International Procedures, Structures and Justice might be slow or even ineffective but this is not a movie, this is beyond serious. Slope. Slippery.
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Post by hop2 on Apr 12, 2017 9:16:43 GMT
'We' as allies with what is now the government of 'South Korea' have been at war with 'North Korea' since June 1953. We have been in an 'active cease fire' & armed truce since July 1953. So technically 'we' have been at war with 'North Korea' longer than my entire lifetime.
We have maintained a level of just under 30,000 troops of various branches of the armed services there under a single sub command within US pacific command for nearly 67 years. We are considered a supportive defense. We are there as much to our own strategic benefit as anything else.
I know many people think 'still being at war' in Korea is a technicality, it is and it is not. And the service people I've known who served there understood that thru the daily tension that exists at the border.
I think our president should consult our allies in the situation before taking the initiative on any action, specifically the government of South Korea, since they would bear the initial brunt of any action at this time.
I feel bad for the people of South Korea as they are in a more precarious situation than they normally are. It's like they are being used as pawns by 2 unpredictable men in a game of prancing Roosters.
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Post by mollycoddle on Apr 12, 2017 11:10:48 GMT
hange NK leader to Trump. Would it be okay for them to do it to the US? We have a batshit crazy, unpresidential leader. Goodness now you put me in a position to defend our President Thanks He is no where near the level of the leader of NK. Im sorry but he isn't. And we in this country have a wonderful tradition of changing out our leaders when we see fit. Which I have a feeling is going to happen with President Trump sooner rather than later. The people of NK do not have that choice. They cannot stand up for themselves against their leader like we can and do here in this country, without the threat of being tortured or killed, or worse, left alone but family being tortured or killed.. You cannot compare the two at all. And now I have to go take a shower. I'm very sorry for the people of NK but no, we should not be in the business of nation-building. Period.
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imsirius
Prolific Pea
Call it as I see it.
Posts: 7,661
Location: Floating in the black veil.
Jul 12, 2014 19:59:28 GMT
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Post by imsirius on Apr 12, 2017 11:43:44 GMT
are you serious. What gives any country, however distasteful their leadership is to others, the right to assassinate another countries leader. Good lord countries can't go round the world and assassinate the leaders of countries that don't happen to align with your beliefs. This 100000% You can't just go in and tell other countries how to run themselves!!! Trump is NOT GOD or the leader of the entire EARTH! He is ONE leader of ONE Country who just happens to THINK he is God's gift to the world. I saw this coming the minute he was elected. His campaign promises were all BULLSHIT and he had a pattern of this behaviour ALL HIS LIFE. Nobody seemed to care that he would do this. Now we are here and it's terrifying! If a country ASKS for help, that's one thing, but you can't just take over a country because *YOU* think it's people are miserable. It's not the US's place.
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Post by jenis40 on Apr 12, 2017 13:25:36 GMT
From what I understand, NK has thousands and thousands of troops poised at the NK SK border, enough that they could wipe out SK and the 30,000 American troops stationed there immediately. America might eventually win the war but at what cost?
I saw on the news yesterday that China has moved 150k troops to the NK border. I hope it's a show of force to get the shit to knock it off.
ETA and I agree we shouldn't be forcing a regime change. It's never worked well.
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Post by cade387 on Apr 12, 2017 13:48:34 GMT
I have family in Hawaii and the idea of NK having nukes and being taunted to use them scares the crap out of me. The people starting this shit aren't the ones who will pay. I'm not wanting war with anyone. I don't know how we manage pushing our ideas of democracy on the world. Maybe the world doesn't want it (as we have seen elsewhere). I don't think anyone in the world should watch people be tortured and killed with chemical weapons though, so I'm not sure how you step in well without looking like one country is trying to take over another. It is a problem that is difficult. I wish it was easy. But wars and bombs aren't easy, ever.
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suzastampin
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,587
Jun 28, 2014 14:32:59 GMT
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Post by suzastampin on Apr 12, 2017 14:03:02 GMT
The problem with taking out a crazy dictator in another country is that there are no guarantees what will pop up in that person's place. It's kind of like playing Whack-a-Mole. You might be successful in getting rid of one, but another and another will keep coming up behind the one(s) you took out. As someone else said upthread, it doesn't seem like a winning proposal. It seems a little too much like Iraq to ignore the similarities. I agree with this. Look at Iraq after G.W. Bush and all thought it was a good idea to go with a regime change and killed off Hussain. It left everything open for Isis to take over. Hussain was a despicable man, but he did keep some semblance of order.
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Apr 12, 2017 14:16:17 GMT
I will be the first to admit I know very little about North Korea and why the world lets a crazy man hold it hostage. I wonder why we can't get in there and remove him from his leadership role. It appears (again remember I said I know little) that the entire world doesn't approve of his leadership, so is there really anyone who would come to his aid if action was taken? I don't think a huge show of force with this is the way to go. I think it has to be a sneak assassination, but we need to make sure the next person to lead is not batshit crazy. How do we go about doing that? How do we get rid of him and help the people of North Korea at the same time? China will and that's not a fight you want. Besides that, do you really think it's a good idea to go around assassinating (or even deposing) leaders because they don't fall into line?
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Post by crazy4scraps on Apr 12, 2017 14:43:18 GMT
Just to answer the subject question - I would not feel anything about a war with NK. I live in the D.C. Area and I would be gone because this would be ground zero. I think I'd be more worried if I lived near Mar-a-Lago, since that's where he seems to want to spend a lot of his time and it's likely a lot less secure. These are sure some crazy times we live in.
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Post by not2peased on Apr 12, 2017 14:59:11 GMT
I am very, very fearful of a war with NK-they have 1.2 million soldiers, and another 7 million in reserve. they revere their leader and would not hesitate to die for him.
they also have nukes-this could literally be the end of the world if war happens.
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Post by disneypal on Apr 12, 2017 15:06:57 GMT
NO! I am really anti-war for most situations. But war with the North Koreans... sounds like the beginnings of WWIII to me. I agree
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Post by Kelpea on Apr 12, 2017 16:47:34 GMT
Not my war. Not my President. And NOT my teen son's war.
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Post by mellyw on Apr 12, 2017 17:14:48 GMT
Holy fuck, people, do a little research before you think taking on North Korea is a good plan.
Assassinate the head, there are 20 more ready to take over. Do something stupid like that (and a little FYI, it's illegal by our own laws, not to mention international law, to assassinate the leader of another country). If that was the easy solution, I assure you, South Korea would have already been on it.
War with NK? Japan and South Korea will immediately be nuked. Don't kid yourself, NK's hate of Japan runs deep. Are you prepared to see the only country ever to have nuclear bombs dropped on them hit again?
Not to mention the number of American troops (and their families), who are stationed in South Korea and Japan. They may not have the capability to reach mainland U.S, but there will be heavy American casualties.
Please don't get me wrong, I've stated here before, that it is a fervent hope of mine to see North Korea free in my lifetime. What has happened there is heartbreaking. And it will take a worldwide effort to help them, they have been indoctrinated for generations now.
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casii
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,464
Jun 29, 2014 14:40:44 GMT
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Post by casii on Apr 12, 2017 18:07:43 GMT
No, we should not engage NK in a war. Even if we thought NK was about to really start using their weaponry, Trump isn't the one to handle it. He has no impulse control, listens little to wise counsel and would be Tweeting out the war plans.
And I'm another one close to DC who'd be a grease stain on the landscape should WW3 break out. Hard pass on that.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Apr 12, 2017 19:30:03 GMT
It's heartbreaking for people who live in NK (just as it is for many across the world), but I don't see any kind of upside to a war with NK. I would say the situation is even more precarious than Iraq and look at what that got us:
4,500 soldiers dead a million more injured (and many lacking adequate support) 250k+ Iraqi casualties trillions of dollars for the taxpayers
Sure, we got rid of Hussein, who was evil. But now what? We created a power vacuum that contributed to the rise of ISIS.
I don't get the warmongering (unless of course it is those who will financially benefit without any risk to themselves or loved ones). And I really, really hate that we use "the poor people in ___ country" excuse for war when we refuse to let in refugees and can't even treat our own citizens humanely. It's like we have an open checkbook for Tomahawk missiles and war, but can't figure out how to get clean water in Flint or help our most vulnerable. Screw the poor in the US, but let's go to war for the people in NK.
I feel for the people who live in NK under a horrible regime - but war is not going to help them or us.
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Post by lisae on Apr 12, 2017 19:32:19 GMT
I'm more afraid of war with North Korea than the Russians. However, with North Korea I don't think we would pay the price as much as South Korea or anywhere close enough for their missiles to reach. I think North Korea's leader is truly the most frightening of all the dictators. We know the least about him. My impression is that he is young, arrogant and completely unconcerned about what happens to anyone else or what might happen to his own people. He probably has a bunker he can wait out a nuclear war and think that he will survive just fine.
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Post by jenis40 on Apr 12, 2017 20:16:05 GMT
It's heartbreaking for people who live in NK (just as it is for many across the world), but I don't see any kind of upside to a war with NK. I would say the situation is even more precarious than Iraq and look at what that got us: 4,500 soldiers dead a million more injured (and many lacking adequate support) 250k+ Iraqi casualties trillions of dollars for the taxpayers Sure, we got rid of Hussein, who was evil. But now what? We created a power vacuum that contributed to the rise of ISIS. I don't get the warmongering (unless of course it is those who will financially benefit without any risk to themselves or loved ones). And I really, really hate that we use "the poor people in ___ country" excuse for war when we refuse to let in refugees and can't even treat our own citizens humanely. It's like we have an open checkbook for Tomahawk missiles and war, but can't figure out how to get clean water in Flint or help our most vulnerable. Screw the poor in the US, but let's go to war for the people in NK. I feel for the people who live in NK under a horrible regime - but war is not going to help them or us. War is profitable for a few people in power unfortunately. It's the rest of us that have to pay for it. There's no money in refugees. Sorry feeling very cynical today.
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PrettyInPeank
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,691
Jun 25, 2014 21:31:58 GMT
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Post by PrettyInPeank on Apr 12, 2017 20:34:01 GMT
I am very, very fearful of a war with NK-they have 1.2 million soldiers, and another 7 million in reserve. they revere their leader and would not hesitate to die for him. they also have nukes-this could literally be the end of the world if war happens. Most North Koreans only show loyalty out of fear. I know if I lived in NK, I would probably volunteer as military to ensure my family was fed. Don't assume loyalty.
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Post by mellyw on Apr 12, 2017 21:19:45 GMT
I am very, very fearful of a war with NK-they have 1.2 million soldiers, and another 7 million in reserve. they revere their leader and would not hesitate to die for him. they also have nukes-this could literally be the end of the world if war happens. Most North Koreans only show loyalty out of fear. I know if I lived in NK, I would probably volunteer as military to ensure my family was fed. Don't assume loyalty. This is a fairly optimistic view, and one not held by the South Koreans. Yes, there is fear, making for a loyal populace. But you can't extrapolate that to mean they would side with an invading force. Generation after generation of being indoctrinated that the outside world is scary, combined with how closed off they have managed to keep the population, South Korean Itelligence expects a pretty bad situation if NK manages to get free. Sure, when your whole family is rounded up, including Grandma & Grandpa and thrown in labor camps for a perceived slight to the Dear Leaders will make people compliant, but these people are still fanatically loyal to the country of North Korea. I can't stress enough how closed off NK is, and has been for a long time. Believing NKoreans would be happy to be liberated isn't a view I would hang my hat on.
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Post by papersilly on Apr 12, 2017 22:14:38 GMT
i am not for any kind of war but if threatened, i would support defending our interests. that being said, while it may be hard for N. Korea to harm us directly, i don't want them going after S. Korea to indirectly harm it's allies.
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Post by beebee on Apr 12, 2017 22:41:29 GMT
I do not want war with NK. I do have big worries about the situation though. Should we let him continue to build his nuclear arsenal? I feel like his program will get better and more powerful with time so should we just let him keep going? He is scary.
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Post by terri on Apr 13, 2017 0:06:26 GMT
hange NK leader to Trump. Would it be okay for them to do it to the US? We have a batshit crazy, unpresidential leader. Goodness now you put me in a position to defend our President Thanks He is no where near the level of the leader of NK. Im sorry but he isn't. And we in this country have a wonderful tradition of changing out our leaders when we see fit. Which I have a feeling is going to happen with President Trump sooner rather than later. The people of NK do not have that choice. They cannot stand up for themselves against their leader like we can and do here in this country, without the threat of being tortured or killed, or worse, left alone but family being tortured or killed.. You cannot compare the two at all. And now I have to go take a shower. It is an awful situation no doubt but assasination is not the answer. It is a violation of international law, a violation of US law for the very reason that we did try it before and as a country we have determined that it was and is wrong, and absolutely immoral as we would be making a decision that would have even worst consequences for other countries such as South Korea and Japan than it would for us.
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