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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 23:00:55 GMT
Dotty, although these men have been arrested, do you really think any one of them will actually be found guilty and serve a sentence? I have no idea but at least there might be hope that the actual police and not the tribal elders are investigating the crimes.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 23:02:36 GMT
And this is why when women in the US complain about being held down or pushed down by men....it pisses me off. Go live in Pakistan or other parts of the world where you have no control over your own body and rape is considered a viable punishment and you are not allowed outside without a male family member with you....that is true oppression. Or just stay here and wait to see if SOME evangelicals finally institute their wet dream of biblical America w/its male "headship" over women and other super-duper ideas of rape and restitution: "If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife." - Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB PS - I do acknowledge that I should have added the bolded word above. I'm sorry. I try to not make blanket statements, but I err too. Sorry again. I don't mean to characterize all evangelicals as wanting to institute biblical laws. But there are definitely enough of them to warrant attention and calling out for the horror that that would be when it comes to some biblical laws.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 23:08:52 GMT
Please note that my comments were clearly in response to another poster's assertion that Christians are legalizing rape in the US. By quoting & editing your response to my posts with criticism only of "Republican politicians who have supported failures to adequately prosecute...rape is tantamount to legalizing it..." makes it partisan & implies only Christians are Republicans, only Republicans fail to prosecute rape, & female Republicans support the rape culture. All of these implications are false. Speaking of "making stuff up," it's interesting you failed to acknowledge that you had edited/added to your post, the source of your condescension. For the 3rd time: I am not asserting that Christians are legalizing rape in the US. I am asserting that some Christians (Dominionists www.politicalresearch.org/2016/08/18/dominionism-rising-a-theocratic-movement-hiding-in-plain-sight/) want to institute biblical laws in the US. Biblical laws include the stoning of rape victims. I really can't make this any clearer.
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Post by Merge on Jul 28, 2017 23:09:16 GMT
Please note that my comments were clearly in response to another poster's assertion that Christians are legalizing rape in the US. By quoting & editing your response to my posts with criticism only of "Republican politicians who have supported failures to adequately prosecute...rape is tantamount to legalizing it..." makes it partisan & implies only Christians are Republicans, only Republicans fail to prosecute rape, & female Republicans support the rape culture. All of these implications are false. Speaking of "making stuff up," it's interesting you failed to acknowledge that you had edited/added to your post, the source of your condescension. The notification for your reply popped up well after I had edited my original post, so I had no way of knowing you hadn't seen it. But no, I still didn't say any of the things you're claiming. Sorry.
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 28, 2017 23:09:54 GMT
Your condescension is unnecessary. As you are aware, I didn't disregard your entire response since you added the (bolded) above after I quoted/responded to your original response which simply stated, "No, it seems you've missed the point entirely." Please provide a legitimate source(s) that supports your implications that all Christians are Republican as well as only prosecutors/judges/jurors that identify as Republican fail & those that are Democrat succeed in prosecuting rape cases. According to your reasoning, all female Republicans are Christians who advocate, support, & intend to legalize a rape culture. Dismissing the blatantly false claim that Christians in the US intend to legalize rape as semantics is irresponsible. Unlike you & most others on this board, I don't engage in partisan politics & am appauled at the divisive rhetoric promoted by both sides!
You are having issues with reading comprehension. I would take a step back. Merge is exactly on point. I'm disgusted that these people call them selves Christians because they aren't.
...in your opinion. Actually, if you read the thread, she made my point earlier by acknowledging the statement by a previous poster that Christians are legalizing rape is false. Neither sharing her opinion about Christians, Republicans, & the justice system or changing the subject to further party rhetoric does not constitute a valid source. Can you ever engage a poster whom you perceive as having a different opinion without insulting him/her?
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Post by Merge on Jul 28, 2017 23:09:58 GMT
Please note that my comments were clearly in response to another poster's assertion that Christians are legalizing rape in the US. By quoting & editing your response to my posts with criticism only of "Republican politicians who have supported failures to adequately prosecute...rape is tantamount to legalizing it..." makes it partisan & implies only Christians are Republicans, only Republicans fail to prosecute rape, & female Republicans support the rape culture. All of these implications are false. Speaking of "making stuff up," it's interesting you failed to acknowledge that you had edited/added to your post, the source of your condescension. For the 3rd time: I am not asserting that Christians are legalizing rape in the US. I am asserting that some Christians (Dominionists www.politicalresearch.org/2016/08/18/dominionism-rising-a-theocratic-movement-hiding-in-plain-sight/) want to institute biblical laws in the US. Biblical laws include the stoning of rape victims. I really can't make this any clearer. You were quite clear. She's just got a stick up her butt.
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Post by Merge on Jul 28, 2017 23:10:44 GMT
You are having issues with reading comprehension. I would take a step back. Merge is exactly on point. I'm disgusted that these people call them selves Christians because they aren't.
...in your opinion. Actually, if you read the thread, she made my point earlier by acknowledging the statement by a previous poster that Christians are legalizing rape is false. Neither sharing her opinion about Christians, Republicans, & the justice system or changing the subject to further party rhetoric does not constitute a valid source. Can you ever engage a poster whom you perceive as having a different opinion without insulting him/her? Can you engage a poster with a different opinion without reading things into what they say that simply aren't there?
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 28, 2017 23:16:36 GMT
Please note that my comments were clearly in response to another poster's assertion that Christians are legalizing rape in the US. By quoting & editing your response to my posts with criticism only of "Republican politicians who have supported failures to adequately prosecute...rape is tantamount to legalizing it..." makes it partisan & implies only Christians are Republicans, only Republicans fail to prosecute rape, & female Republicans support the rape culture. All of these implications are false. Speaking of "making stuff up," it's interesting you failed to acknowledge that you had edited/added to your post, the source of your condescension. The notification for your reply popped up well after I had edited my original post, so I had no way of knowing you hadn't seen it. But no, I still didn't say any of the things you're claiming. Sorry. Wow. How can you deny direct quotes (unless you've edited again, of course)?
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 28, 2017 23:34:35 GMT
...in your opinion. Actually, if you read the thread, she made my point earlier by acknowledging the statement by a previous poster that Christians are legalizing rape is false. Neither sharing her opinion about Christians, Republicans, & the justice system or changing the subject to further party rhetoric does not constitute a valid source. Can you ever engage a poster whom you perceive as having a different opinion without insulting him/her? Can you engage a poster with a different opinion without reading things into what they say that simply aren't there? Now you are purposely being obtuse. You clearly equated Christian with Republican in your response. I asked for a source to support your stance. You then clarified, "I didn't say or imply that ALL Christians are Republican. But the ones who support dominionist and patriarchal politics tend to be overwhelmingly so. Or else they call themselves 'Libertarian' but don't mean that on social issues." A source still hasn't been provided that proves this revised statement (ie Christians are either registered Republicans or Libertarian). I dislike false statements presented as fact. While anyone not living under a rock knows we still lack equality (sex, gender, race, etc) in the US, it's not the fault of only one party. Every person, regardless of his/her political affiliation, should work toward equality for us & future generations.
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 28, 2017 23:36:17 GMT
Or just stay here and wait to see if SOME evangelicals finally institute their wet dream of biblical America w/its male "headship" over women and other super-duper ideas of rape and restitution: "If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife." - Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB PS - I do acknowledge that I should have added the bolded word above. I'm sorry. I try to not make blanket statements, but I err too. Sorry again. I don't mean to characterize all evangelicals as wanting to institute biblical laws... Thank you for the clarification.
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Post by Sukkii on Jul 28, 2017 23:36:47 GMT
Dotty, although these men have been arrested, do you really think any one of them will actually be found guilty and serve a sentence? I have no idea but at least there might be hope that the actual police and not the tribal elders are investigating the crimes. Absolutely, But I have a bleak view for the girls. It would only take one strong man or one police officer to change things. I would really like to see them all prosecuted.
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 28, 2017 23:45:21 GMT
You were quite clear. She's just got a stick up her butt. No; I just dislike blanket statements that are false & disrespectful about groups of people. Your condescension & insults are noted.
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Post by Merge on Jul 29, 2017 0:15:19 GMT
Can you engage a poster with a different opinion without reading things into what they say that simply aren't there? Now you are purposely being obtuse. You clearly equated Christian with Republican in your response. I asked for a source to support your stance. You then clarified, "I didn't say or imply that ALL Christians are Republican. But the ones who support dominionist and patriarchal politics tend to be overwhelmingly so. Or else they call themselves 'Libertarian' but don't mean that on social issues." A source still hasn't been provided that proves this revised statement (ie Christians are either registered Republicans or Libertarian). I dislike false statements presented as fact. While anyone not living under a rock knows we still lack equality (sex, gender, race, etc) in the US, it's not the fault of only one party. Every person, regardless of his/her political affiliation, should work toward equality for us & future generations. My God. For the last time, I never equated Christian with Republican in any post, and you have yet failed to point out where I did. I'm not required to provide a source to support something I did not say or imply. What the fuck is your problem? You "dislike false statements?" Then stop making them. Please look back the sentence where I said "the ones [meaning the Republicans] who support dominionist and patriarchal politics." If you can find political operatives with these stances outside the Republican or Libertarian circles, I'd sure like to see them. Why don't you provide some sources for your ridiculous assertions about what I'm supposedly implying?
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Post by Merge on Jul 29, 2017 0:16:17 GMT
You were quite clear. She's just got a stick up her butt. No; I just dislike blanket statements that are false & disrespectful about groups of people. Your condescension & insults are noted. And your willful stupidity is noted. My god, it's clearer to me every day how these jackasses keep getting elected. We're a country of morons. Put that in your spreadsheet and smoke it.
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Post by Merge on Jul 29, 2017 0:18:57 GMT
The notification for your reply popped up well after I had edited my original post, so I had no way of knowing you hadn't seen it. But no, I still didn't say any of the things you're claiming. Sorry. Wow. How can you deny direct quotes (unless you've edited again, of course)? Please show me the direct quote. ETA: never mind; on ignore you go. I don't need to deal with this kind of bullshit. Plenty of it in the real world.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 0:33:58 GMT
Wow. How can you deny direct quotes (unless you've edited again, of course)? Please show me the direct quote. ETA: never mind; on ignore you go. I don't need to deal with this kind of bullshit. Plenty of it in the real world. It's funny because this started out as showing the immorality of one culture's behaviors and the rulings of their "elders". Calling out the immorality of those cultural rulings was not offensive. BUT ---- when our culture's predominant holy book shows similar levels of immorality in some of its laws and admonitions (thankfully not currently followed in our society), suddenly calling out that holy book's immorality is not OK to some.
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Post by melanell on Jul 29, 2017 1:18:04 GMT
I don't have strong enough words to indicate how completely awful that is.
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 29, 2017 2:12:07 GMT
Now you are purposely being obtuse. You clearly equated Christian with Republican in your response. I asked for a source to support your stance. You then clarified, "I didn't say or imply that ALL Christians are Republican. But the ones who support dominionist and patriarchal politics tend to be overwhelmingly so. Or else they call themselves 'Libertarian' but don't mean that on social issues." A source still hasn't been provided that proves this revised statement (ie Christians are either registered Republicans or Libertarian). I dislike false statements presented as fact. While anyone not living under a rock knows we still lack equality (sex, gender, race, etc) in the US, it's not the fault of only one party. Every person, regardless of his/her political affiliation, should work toward equality for us & future generations. My God. For the last time, I never equated Christian with Republican in any post, and you have yet failed to point out where I did. I'm not required to provide a source to support something I did not say or imply. What the fuck is your problem? You "dislike false statements?" Then stop making them. Please look back the sentence where I said "the ones [meaning the Republicans] who support dominionist and patriarchal politics." If you can find political operatives with these stances outside the Republican or Libertarian circles, I'd sure like to see them. Why don't you provide some sources for your ridiculous assertions about what I'm supposedly implying? The cursing & insults are unnecessary. I have explained ad nauseam that I was clearly addressing the OP's comment about Christians. You quoted & responded to my comment with your views about Republicans. Any reasonable person would conclude that you were equating Christians with Republicans. You go on to clarify that most Christians are Republican or Libertarian. I quoted your own words to support my interpretation.
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 29, 2017 2:15:28 GMT
No; I just dislike blanket statements that are false & disrespectful about groups of people. Your condescension & insults are noted. And your willful stupidity is noted. My god, it's clearer to me every day how these jackasses keep getting elected. We're a country of morons. Put that in your spreadsheet and smoke it. Wow! The insults & cursing continues. I posted in this thread to address a blanket statement the OP (admittedly) made & you chose to belittle & berate me based on assumptions. You proved your own point.
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 29, 2017 2:26:48 GMT
Wow. How can you deny direct quotes (unless you've edited again, of course)? Please show me the direct quote. ETA: never mind; on ignore you go. I don't need to deal with this kind of bullshit. Plenty of it in the real world. That is your choice. I will not, however, be blocking you (or anyone else), since I respect everyone's varied opinions on a myriad of topics here.
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Post by *leslie* on Jul 29, 2017 2:28:10 GMT
The religion of peace strikes again.
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Post by AussieMeg on Jul 29, 2017 2:31:37 GMT
How horrifying! It's hard to believe that this sort of thing is allowed to happen in any county in 2017.
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 29, 2017 3:04:43 GMT
Please show me the direct quote. ETA: never mind; on ignore you go. I don't need to deal with this kind of bullshit. Plenty of it in the real world. It's funny because this started out as showing the immorality of one culture's behaviors and the rulings of their "elders". Calling out the immorality of those cultural rulings was not offensive. BUT ---- when our culture's predominant holy book shows similar levels of immorality in some of its laws and admonitions (thankfully not currently followed in our society), suddenly calling out that holy book's immorality is not OK to some. IMHO this misrepresents the conversation. You admittedly made a derogatory blanket statement about Christians in the US, which diverted the discussion away from Pakistan. When asked to provide a source, you & your cronies chose to vilify me instead. Unfortunately, it's become the modus operandi for political threads.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 5:28:36 GMT
It's funny because this started out as showing the immorality of one culture's behaviors and the rulings of their "elders". Calling out the immorality of those cultural rulings was not offensive. BUT ---- when our culture's predominant holy book shows similar levels of immorality in some of its laws and admonitions (thankfully not currently followed in our society), suddenly calling out that holy book's immorality is not OK to some. IMHO this misrepresents the conversation. You admittedly made a derogatory blanket statement about Christians in the US, which diverted the discussion away from Pakistan. When asked to provide a source, you & your cronies chose to vilify me instead. Unfortunately, it's become the modus operandi for political threads. I stand by my amended comment about SOME Pakistani beliefs and SOME Christian beliefs being disgusting regarding rape and restitution.
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Post by kamper on Jul 29, 2017 5:31:03 GMT
Wait. You believe that a woman should be stoned to death but, you think Zingermack's comments were offensive? I think she just stated a fact. This is why rational people need to be very afraid of any group with religious agendas taking over the US. As far as Pakistan goes, I just think there is no hope for females there until something is done to lift them up. Education first. Control of their bodies. So, you also believe it's a fact that US Christian politicians are proposing rape of female family members as punishment for crimes (as is the practice in Pakistan)? Please provide a source. Umm. No. I'm saying your 'offense' is kind of ridiculous when the Bible also condones barbaric treatment of women.
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 29, 2017 12:34:42 GMT
So, you also believe it's a fact that US Christian politicians are proposing rape of female family members as punishment for crimes (as is the practice in Pakistan)? Please provide a source. Umm. No. I'm saying your 'offense' is kind of ridiculous when the Bible also condones barbaric treatment of women. I asked for clarification because your response was "I think she just stated a fact." I was offended by the (original) false & sensationalized claim that Christians were legalizing rape in the US; IMHO everyone should have been appauled by such a divisive & unsubstantiated statement (that also shifted the focus from Pakistan & plays into the stereotype that Americans make everything about them)!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 14:25:29 GMT
Umm. No. I'm saying your 'offense' is kind of ridiculous when the Bible also condones barbaric treatment of women. I asked for clarification because your response was "I think she just stated a fact." I was offended by the (original) false & sensationalized claim that Christians were legalizing rape in the US; IMHO everyone should have been appauled by such a divisive & unsubstantiated statement (that also shifted the focus from Pakistan & plays into the stereotype that Americans make everything about them)! There was no claim that Christians are legalizing rape. There is a claim that their holy book calls for the rape victim to be killed. Disgusting holy book admonitions exist - on all sides - not just in Pakistan.
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GiantsFan
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Post by GiantsFan on Jul 29, 2017 15:05:24 GMT
And this is why when women in the US complain about being held down or pushed down by men....it pisses me off. Go live in Pakistan or other parts of the world where you have no control over your own body and rape is considered a viable punishment and you are not allowed outside without a male family member with you....that is true oppression. Or just stay here and wait to see if evangelicals finally institute their wet dream of biblical America w/its male "headship" over women and other super-duper ideas of rape and restitution: "If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife." - Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB I couldn't find your NAB version to check but it might be missing verse 25. Deuteronomy 22:23-25 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 23 “If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.
25 “But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A23-25&version=NASB
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 15:07:01 GMT
Or just stay here and wait to see if evangelicals finally institute their wet dream of biblical America w/its male "headship" over women and other super-duper ideas of rape and restitution: "If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife." - Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB I couldn't find your NAB version to check but it might be missing verse 25. Deuteronomy 22:23-25 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 23 “If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.
25 “But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A23-25&version=NASBBetter. But still immoral to kill the rape victim in the circumstance in verse 23-24 PS - Here's verse 28. Also immoral: 28 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.
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GiantsFan
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Post by GiantsFan on Jul 29, 2017 15:10:02 GMT
Better. But still immoral to kill the rape victim in the circumstance in verse 23-24 I was brought up to believe that verse 23-24 is that they are both willing participants. Verse 25 is about rape. ETA- yeah it goes on to be kind of weird. But I have to say we can't put today's (the last 200 or so years) standards on common practices from 3,000 years ago. Not that it was OK.
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