|
Post by christine58 on Aug 28, 2017 20:15:15 GMT
See, I don't think I agree that it's right that you should be in a position where if you commit a felony you don't have a job to come back to. I think that's counterproductive. As a certified teacher in NYS, my certification would be PULLED. Those are the rules. So many of us would lose our ability to keep our jobs
|
|
cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,375
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
|
Post by cycworker on Aug 28, 2017 20:21:40 GMT
See, I don't think I agree that it's right that you should be in a position where if you commit a felony you don't have a job to come back to. I think that's counterproductive. As a certified teacher in NYS, my certification would be PULLED. Those are the rules. So many of us would lose our ability to keep our jobs I thought you were a teacher, but I couldn't remember for sure. I stand by my POV; if it's not a crime against children, I would support a suspension of certification & a process to regain it, but I don't support just pulling it. The rules, imo, are wrong & encourage recidivism. People make mistakes. They need to be given an opportunity to recover from their mistakes.
|
|
azredhead
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,755
Jun 25, 2014 22:49:18 GMT
|
Post by azredhead on Aug 28, 2017 20:27:03 GMT
Kap sucks. His lack of being on a team has nothing to do with his kneeling but everything to do with his inability to maneuver in the pocket, make passes that every QB can toss, and his poor attitude. He was not respected by team mates. It was the other players (mainly defense) that lead the the 49ers as far as they went in after regular season play. i think that is the reason too. the NFL is not in the Morals business. if you have the talent and the skills and you might be an occasional distraction, they will still bend every rule and cut very slack to get you on their team. if you are fizzling out AND you are still a distraction to the team or the league, they will step over you like a dirty puddle on the sidewalk. We can agree on that!! I think that's the gist of it so to speak! He als turned down a contract as it wasn't enough and he wasn't garanteed a starting spot. ETA - I also agree that Vick did his time and trying to correct his wrongs.
|
|
|
Post by Darcy Collins on Aug 28, 2017 20:39:29 GMT
I think that it is telling that people want to give Vick another chance but have nothing positive to say about Kaepernick. IMO, it is because people want him to remember his place as a black man. And that opinion is reinforced by seeing the comments on this subject, both on this thread and IRL and who is saying them. I believe that is why the poll that seems to be about politics would include questions about these two. But aren't they both black men? I'm not following you.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 19, 2024 21:16:54 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 20:55:37 GMT
Kap sucks. His lack of being on a team has nothing to do with his kneeling but everything to do with his inability to maneuver in the pocket, make passes that every QB can toss, and his poor attitude. He was not respected by team mates. It was the other players (mainly defense) that lead the the 49ers as far as they went in after regular season play.Vick? He did his time. He isnt playing and I am happy about that. I am sure he will be a good at his new position. I have no problem with this at all. Being signed is all about an athlete's performance, so I can respect that. I am bothered by the comments about his protesting by kneeling, when the same people rail against the violence of Antifa and other protestors. I TOTALLY support non-violent protest. That is exactly what he is doing! As far as Michael Vick, I am one that believes a leopard does not change his spots. Of course he has to play nice to make big bucks. I just found him to be a smug individual. Not interested in his commentary.
|
|
|
Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 28, 2017 21:08:25 GMT
I think that it is telling that people want to give Vick another chance but have nothing positive to say about Kaepernick. IMO, it is because people want him to remember his place as a black man. And that opinion is reinforced by seeing the comments on this subject, both on this thread and IRL and who is saying them. I believe that is why the poll that seems to be about politics would include questions about these two. But aren't they both black men? I'm not following you. Yes, they are. But there are two different issues here. Michael Vick is a criminal. Colin Kaepernick is not. Why is Michael Vick (and any number of other football players who have gotten into trouble) getting a second chance but kaepernick is getting thrown to the curb? It's because those who don't think that his "cause" is worthy or that he is a traitor to the flag are making noise. They don't want people, black people especially, to protest or bring light to issues that are uncomfortable to them, particularly racism.
|
|
|
Post by papersilly on Aug 28, 2017 21:09:59 GMT
ETA - I also agree that Vick did his time and trying to correct his wrongs. it's not a popular opinion but i believe michael vick is also trying to right his wrongs. some people will hate him whether he tries to make it right or keep fighting the dogs. i love dogs, i was disgusted by what he did, but i'm not going to vilify him forever. there are people who have done far worse that i need to focus my attention on.
|
|
lindas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,160
Member is Online
Jun 26, 2014 5:46:37 GMT
|
Post by lindas on Aug 28, 2017 21:13:45 GMT
Kaepernick's not having a job has more to do with his lack of talent than anything else. He's not that good anymore. Vick is a horrible individual. If I got convicted of a felony, I'd not have a job to come back to. I will not watch anything he commentates on. Kaepernick may not be as good as he used to be, or as good as his previous contract's salary would suggest, but he's certainly still better than Jay freakin' Cutler, who was already retired. See, I don't think I agree that it's right that you should be in a position where if you commit a felony you don't have a job to come back to. I think that's counterproductive. It's exactly that kind of thinking that leads to recidivism. You should do your time, pay your debt to society for your mistakes, and be given an opportunity to put your life back together. That should include a job in the field for which you are trained. Certainly the court shouldn't say, 'Oh, X is in Y profession so we'll go easier on them...' But, say a person loses their driver's license due to something that happens off work hours. I see no reason to take the person's job away based on that. If I did take their job away, it would be due to them not being able to figure out a way to get to work as a consequence of losing their license, not because of what they did to lose the license. What they did to lose the license is between them & the justice system, as long as it's not done on my (the employer's) time. Miami has a large Cuban-American population. Kaepernick's outright support of Castro would not have played well there so that's why Cutler got the job. The NFL is not deliberately blacklisting him and forcing the owners not to hire him. The NFL has no control over who gets hired or fired only who gets fined, suspended to tossed out.
|
|
lindas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,160
Member is Online
Jun 26, 2014 5:46:37 GMT
|
Post by lindas on Aug 28, 2017 21:15:51 GMT
But aren't they both black men? I'm not following you. Yes, they are. But there are two different issues here. Michael Vick is a criminal. Colin Kaepernick is not. Why is Michael Vick (and any number of other football players who have gotten into trouble) getting a second chance but kaepernick is getting thrown to the curb? It's because those who don't think that his "cause" is worthy or that he is a traitor to the flag are making noise. They don't want people, black people especially, to protest or bring light to issues that are uncomfortable to them, particularly racism. That's complete bullshit. If it were true then the 11 Cleveland Browns players who took a knee last week would all be looking for work today.
|
|
|
Post by christine58 on Aug 28, 2017 21:17:23 GMT
I thought you were a teacher, but I couldn't remember for sure. I stand by my POV; if it's not a crime against children, I would support a suspension of certification & a process to regain it, but I don't support just pulling it. The rules, imo, are wrong & encourage recidivism. People make mistakes. They need to be given an opportunity to recover from their mistakes. Just retired after 36 years~~ If the Board Of Regents takes our certification...can't get it back.
|
|
Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
|
Post by Rainbow on Aug 28, 2017 21:18:01 GMT
you got that right i'm really tired of people using the military as a way to 'prove you are patriotic' and to 'learn your place' gina We are creating a very dangerous "warrior class," an unintended result of the all volunteer force. Really? They are regular people like you and me.
|
|
|
Post by Darcy Collins on Aug 28, 2017 21:18:51 GMT
But aren't they both black men? I'm not following you. Yes, they are. But there are two different issues here. Michael Vick is a criminal. Colin Kaepernick is not. Why is Michael Vick (and any number of other football players who have gotten into trouble) getting a second chance but kaepernick is getting thrown to the curb? It's because those who don't think that his "cause" is worthy or that he is a traitor to the flag are making noise. They don't want people, black people especially, to protest or bring light to issues that are uncomfortable to them, particularly racism. Thank you for explaining. When I first read your post I was getting totally confused as I thought you were drawing a distinction about their treatment based on their race. I think the NFL is wholly mercenary - your ability to gain second chances is wholly due to your playing ability. I'm shocked and disgusted at some of the players who's behavior has been overlooked because of their ability to "contribute." I agree with the posted ESPN article that his position as quarterback also doesn't help - but if he was a Tier 1 quarterback, I'm sure more than a few teams would have signed him.
|
|
|
Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 28, 2017 21:19:52 GMT
Yes, they are. But there are two different issues here. Michael Vick is a criminal. Colin Kaepernick is not. Why is Michael Vick (and any number of other football players who have gotten into trouble) getting a second chance but kaepernick is getting thrown to the curb? It's because those who don't think that his "cause" is worthy or that he is a traitor to the flag are making noise. They don't want people, black people especially, to protest or bring light to issues that are uncomfortable to them, particularly racism. That's complete bullshit. If it were true then the 11 Cleveland Browns players who took a knee last week would all be looking for work today. Uh, no. The climate today is different than it was last year. And many people deny that police brutality against blacks is real. That was evidenced by the comments here and on social media that were made when CK started to kneel. Maybe now more people are taking his cause more seriously. Unfortunately, it seems too late for him.
|
|
ginacivey
Pearl Clutcher
refupea #2 in southeast missouri
Posts: 4,685
Jun 25, 2014 19:18:36 GMT
|
Post by ginacivey on Aug 28, 2017 21:27:48 GMT
CK saying he was sorry and that he would stand if he was playing this year. if the following is true - then why will he stand this year? They don't want people, black people especially, to protest or bring light to issues that are uncomfortable to them, particularly racism. Really? They are regular people like you and me. i think that's her point - that they are just ordinary people - stop holding them up as the epitome of patriotism
|
|
|
Post by #notLauren on Aug 28, 2017 21:29:02 GMT
Since the NFL is composed of privately owned teams, I say too bad for KP. Free speech, which is what those protesting for him are citing, has nothing to do with private employers. It only insures that you don't get arrested by the government. Even if he hasn't been picked up because of his kneeling, too bad. It's a consequence of his action and if he wants to take a stand (no pun intended) he needs to be willing to accept the consequences.
|
|
|
Post by #notLauren on Aug 28, 2017 21:30:37 GMT
But aren't they both black men? I'm not following you. Yes, they are. But there are two different issues here. Michael Vick is a criminal. Colin Kaepernick is not. Why is Michael Vick (and any number of other football players who have gotten into trouble) getting a second chance but kaepernick is getting thrown to the curb? It's because those who don't think that his "cause" is worthy or that he is a traitor to the flag are making noise. They don't want people, black people especially, to protest or bring light to issues that are uncomfortable to them, particularly racism. I don't think that's the case at all. I think it boils down to money and talent. Kaepernick is a financial liability to the teams so he's out. Plain and simple.
|
|
|
Post by peasapie on Aug 28, 2017 22:18:13 GMT
But aren't they both black men? I'm not following you. Yes, they are. But there are two different issues here. Michael Vick is a criminal. Colin Kaepernick is not. Why is Michael Vick (and any number of other football players who have gotten into trouble) getting a second chance but kaepernick is getting thrown to the curb? It's because those who don't think that his "cause" is worthy or that he is a traitor to the flag are making noise. They don't want people, black people especially, to protest or bring light to issues that are uncomfortable to them, particularly racism. I understand what you are saying. To many, the flag represents military service, especially those who have died. So when Kaepernick is kneeling or sitting during the anthem, it feels to them as if he is disrespecting that sacrifice. Would the treatment be the same if he was a Tier 1 black athlete? (I don't buy that athletic reasons are why nobody has signed him, but who would admit that.) Would it be the same if he was equally able but white? We'll never know, but I'll take a guess and say it very well might. Money talks with anything that involves sponsorship, and if fans/customers aren't buying, the product gets pulled. Remember when the Dixie Chicks said they were ashamed of George W Bush? Their careers never fully recovered.
|
|
|
Post by Really Red on Aug 28, 2017 22:44:10 GMT
Vick makes me sick. I have not heard from him how sorry he is. Some stupid words, but I don't see the actions.
Kaepernick is a different story. I never liked him, but I admire him greatly for what he did. It did bring an end to his career, yet he still stood up quietly and nonconfrontationally for his beliefs. That's a great thing. Others followed him and kudos to them.
A lot of people do it now, and they are not affected negatively like Kaepernick, so I think it's more that he believes he's better than he is.
|
|
|
Post by trixiecat on Aug 28, 2017 22:48:35 GMT
|
|
|
Post by *KAS* on Aug 28, 2017 23:43:17 GMT
I think that it is telling that people want to give Vick another chance but have nothing positive to say about Kaepernick. IMO, it is because people want him to remember his place as a black man. And that opinion is reinforced by seeing the comments on this subject, both on this thread and IRL and who is saying them. I believe that is why the poll that seems to be about politics would include questions about these two. You realize that Vick is black too, right? So you're saying the same people that want to give him a second chance want to hold Kaepernick down because he's black? That just doesn't make logical sense. For the record, I'm on the "give Vick a second chance" bench, and he was my team's QB when this all went down, so I have reason to be bitter. But he went to prison, he's followed the law since he's been out, and he has spoken out against the crimes he committed. I think he came from a culture where it was accepted and likely didn't realize how truly awful what he was doing was. He's (hopefully) learned from it, and many people convicted of crimes get jobs after prison. I'd certainly rather see him working than not - he has a family to feed. As for Kaepernick, he CHOSE to opt out of his contract that would have paid him $14 million this season. Many suspect he opted out because he didn't want to deal with getting less money if they released him and he had to restructure. I don't actually care that he kneeled for the National Anthem. We're free to make choices in this country, but we're not free from the consequences of our choices. But more than that, nobody will ever convince me that there's not one single team that would take him IF his talent level warranted a spot on their roster and he would accept less than what HE thinks he's worth. Look at all the other guys in the NFL that have committed crimes and still gotten jobs (not that he committed a crime, just making the point that people with much worse behavior did - and still came back to an NFL job, including Michael Vick to bring it full circle). He was a 30th ranked QB last year, and he comes with drama. That's not worth $14mil to most. Also, how would that explain the other (black) NFL players (Marshawn Lynch, Michael Bennett and others that I'd have to google) who have taken a knee during the anthem, but still have jobs?
|
|
used2scrap
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,036
Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
|
Post by used2scrap on Aug 29, 2017 1:04:08 GMT
Since the NFL is composed of privately owned teams, I say too bad for KP. Free speech, which is what those protesting for him are citing, has nothing to do with private employers. It only insures that you don't get arrested by the government. Even if he hasn't been picked up because of his kneeling, too bad. It's a consequence of his action and if he wants to take a stand (no pun intended) he needs to be willing to accept the consequences. But is it ok for employers to play the National Anthem at work and expect employees to stand? (Military excepted).
|
|
|
Post by gmcwife1 on Aug 29, 2017 1:23:16 GMT
See, I don't think I agree that it's right that you should be in a position where if you commit a felony you don't have a job to come back to. I think that's counterproductive. As a certified teacher in NYS, my certification would be PULLED. Those are the rules. So many of us would lose our ability to keep our jobs I work for a health insurance company, we can't have a criminal background either. There are many jobs that won't employ felons.
|
|
|
Post by redhead32 on Aug 29, 2017 1:42:56 GMT
I think both of them need a good lesson in compassion and citizenship and should perhaps spend some time over in Afganistan just so they experience the hardship all our fine men and women in the military are experiencing. Then we'll see how how hard life is for these privilege misfits. I find this response strange. Military in Afghanistan chose to serve. This football player did not choose to be black. The military members are in Afghanistan to protect freedom, right? But a black man shouldn't have the freedom to take a knee to protest the oppression and brutality of a privileged white country. It makes no sense to me.
|
|
Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
|
Post by Rainbow on Aug 29, 2017 1:48:08 GMT
Really? They are regular people like you and me. i think that's her point - that they are just ordinary people - stop holding them up as the epitome of patriotism That isn't what she said at all. And they ARE the epitome of patriotism. They agree to give their life to protect and serve this country. What they aren't is any more dangerous than anyone else.
|
|
twinsmomfla99
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,987
Jun 26, 2014 13:42:47 GMT
|
Post by twinsmomfla99 on Aug 29, 2017 1:55:41 GMT
|
|
used2scrap
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,036
Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
|
Post by used2scrap on Aug 29, 2017 2:00:08 GMT
i think that's her point - that they are just ordinary people - stop holding them up as the epitome of patriotism That isn't what she said at all. And they ARE the epitome of patriotism. They agree to give their life to protect and serve this country. What they aren't is any more dangerous than anyone else.I didn't say they are dangerous, I said the idea of having a special class of warrior citizens is dangerous. www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-warrior-main-20150524-story,amp.html
|
|
|
Post by annabella on Aug 29, 2017 2:03:59 GMT
I think Cuban Americans over analyzed the Castro t-shirt (where Castro was hidden behind his jacket) and blew it out of proportion. All kaepernick said was that Malcolm X had an open mind to meet with Castro, hence people should have an open mind to hear kaepernick out. Maybe he meant to only talk about Malcolm X but someone pointed out hey there's another person on your shirt. He clarified and said that he was not talking about Fidel Castro and his oppression but instead talking about Malcolm X and what he’s done for people. Talking about Castro with Cuban Americans can be a very charged conversation. When kaepernick kept getting flack for his offense of wearing a hidden Castro t-shirt so his rebuttal was well Castro did do one thing right in their education vs prison system and compared it to ours, that was to point out how much money the USA puts into prisons and not into education. Bringing it back to USA problems but no Cuban Americans were outraged that he dare compliment Castro on something.
I saw a piece on the news that showed people protesting in front of the NFL on his behalf the the newscaster gave his stats and claimed he was a good player despite what everyone is saying in this thread, I don't follow football so I don't know. But I don't feel there's a mass conspiracy to not hire him. Hiring is done at the individual team level and if every single team out there (there's only 32) feels he's not a good fit either because of his playing ability or they don't want someone too smart that makes philosophical press conferences, then that's just his luck. Maybe each team owner doesn't want protests of their team for hiring this controversial person. I don't see it as a black/white thing, I see it as an American thing where Americans are very sensitive to criticism of unAmerican comments about the flag, National Anthem, and the military.
A parallel example is the Dixie Chicks denouncing George Bush and the war on stage in London, their career went down the toilet! It was considered unAmerican. However now I see at award shows all the time celebs criticizing 45 so clearly he's in a whole another bucket where it's mutually agreed he's just an idiot. Are we going to pull the minority card and say the Dixie Chicks were ostracized because they were female or because they are in the country business whose fans are flag flying good ole Americans and members of the military?
I've been following Rashad Jenkins since he was on Dancing with the Stars, he was cut from a team and is hoping to get reemployed. It's the nature of the business, there's no job security. A lot of people get cut every year!
|
|
|
Post by annabella on Aug 29, 2017 2:05:20 GMT
I find it amusing all the people in this thread who are disgusted with Michael Vick but watched the barbaric fight this weekend. As if watching humans harm others is entertainment. It's like don't wear fur but I eat meat. Spare me.
|
|
Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
|
Post by Rainbow on Aug 29, 2017 2:10:53 GMT
That isn't what she said at all. And they ARE the epitome of patriotism. They agree to give their life to protect and serve this country. What they aren't is any more dangerous than anyone else. I didn't say they are dangerous, I said the idea of having a special class of warrior citizens is dangerous. www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-warrior-main-20150524-story,amp.html The military has to be trained to protect this country. Would you rather that they were not trained? Their training doesn't make them any more dangerous than anyone else.
|
|
Nanner
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,969
Jun 25, 2014 23:13:23 GMT
|
Post by Nanner on Aug 29, 2017 2:18:33 GMT
lots of sports stars commit crimes - get suspensions and go back to playing we watch them every sunday tbh - i'm more concerned with the wife beaters - 6 week suspensions vick and his crimes against dogs was horrible - but was it worse? gina No, it wasn't worse. Those ones should get the same thing Vick got - jail time. Vick is a scumbag. Those wife beaters are scumbags.
|
|