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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 13, 2017 17:33:48 GMT
Nate Silver.., "Media obsession with emails/Comey was a big factor. Incumbent/Clinton fatigue mattered. Misogyny mattered. Hard to know how much Russia did." Agree with this. It's a chicken and egg issue - those things mattered, because people didn't like her. In many ways, I think people looked for "legitimate" reasons to point to on why they disliked Hillary. She had a front row seat for a couple politicians overcoming much bigger issues - I think it actually fed the problem as her campaign just couldn't understand why some fixated on these issues and her response further confirmed people's dislike.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 18:10:49 GMT
Erie County (NY) has 285k registered democrats and 152k registered republicans.
Hilary came to a auto museum that has a capacity of 3k in April of 2016.
Trump came to the Key Bank Arena that has a capacity of 19k in April of 2016. Crowd was approx 11k.
This is, as I mentioned above, a hugely democratic county, state and city.
She is simply not likable.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Sept 13, 2017 18:20:39 GMT
Erie County (NY) has 285k registered democrats and 152k registered republicans. Hilary came to a auto museum that has a capacity of 3k in April of 2016. Trump came to the Key Bank Arena that has a capacity of 19k in April of 2016. Crowd was approx 11k. This is, as I mentioned above, a hugely democratic county, state and city. She is simply not likable. But why is she unlikeable? I personally don't see her being any more unlikeable than any other politician than I have seen in regards to demeanor, body language, etc. I find her to be much more calm and respectful than most of the male politicians. Is it that as a woman, she doesn't fit the typical stereotype of what people think a woman should be like?
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Post by beebee on Sept 13, 2017 18:40:05 GMT
I know many people who said they'd have voted for Condoleeza Rice(sp) in a heartbeat. I don't believe he loss what attributable to her gender. I'm a Condoleeza fan!!
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 13, 2017 18:41:17 GMT
She is an amazing woman. She is not interested in throwing her hat in the political arena though.
What's kind of humorous is that those who would wholeheartedly support this AA woman are the the same people who are labeld sexist and racist. Go figure.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 18:54:29 GMT
But why is she unlikeable? I personally don't see her being any more unlikeable than any other politician than I have seen in regards to demeanor, body language, etc. I find her to be much more calm and respectful than most of the male politicians. Is it that as a woman, she doesn't fit the typical stereotype of what people think a woman should be like? It's not a woman thing, at least for me. There was a sense of she was "due" and "entitled". Perhaps a deal was struck, she became SOS to bolster her resume, but "they" forgot to clue the people in the plan. You cannot ignore the politics of the electoral college and not campaign in certain "for sure" states either. You have to play the game. I found this article that interviewed Dems who voted for Trump and why they did: linkThe message she gave was not what the people wanted to hear.
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 13, 2017 19:09:21 GMT
Very interesting article. I find it interesting that many of those people (who self-identify as "life long Democrats) said what I feel; Hillary (and to a large extent the entire Democratic party) pander to subsets of the population rather than America as a whole. They create divisiveness and make fellow Americans "the Others".
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Post by Zee on Sept 13, 2017 19:12:19 GMT
Erie County (NY) has 285k registered democrats and 152k registered republicans. Hilary came to a auto museum that has a capacity of 3k in April of 2016. Trump came to the Key Bank Arena that has a capacity of 19k in April of 2016. Crowd was approx 11k. This is, as I mentioned above, a hugely democratic county, state and city. She is simply not likable. But why is she unlikeable? I personally don't see her being any more unlikeable than any other politician than I have seen in regards to demeanor, body language, etc. I find her to be much more calm and respectful than most of the male politicians. Is it that as a woman, she doesn't fit the typical stereotype of what people think a woman should be like? I think it's that she comes across as cold, aloof, and that she is smarter than everyone else. Which she may be, but she just doesn't endear herself to anyone. It could partly be that she's a woman. But I think she counted on having a lot of Dem supporters due to being a Clinton, and they didn't fall in line. Her "basket of deplorables" comment was really a death blow (regardless that it's disgustingly true). Like I said, it sure must sting to know that people like you so little that they'd sit home and allow Trump to be elected. Or even worse, vote for him just to keep you out of office.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 13, 2017 19:17:38 GMT
I think likability is one of those things that just isn't quantifiable or explainable. I remember in 2007 watching the debates, and being just flummoxed about President Obama's appeal. He bombed several of those debates and Clinton showed quite clearly that her knowledge and experience well exceeded his. I thought he was a great orator, but not a good candidate. But people liked him - or conversely disliked her - enough to overlooked his short comings and campaign missteps. The Bernie Sanders phenomena was another sign of what was to come in the general election - but people just didn't want to believe it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 19:24:47 GMT
but people just didn't want to believe it. This.
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Post by flanz on Sept 13, 2017 20:26:50 GMT
It is not our place to determine why she wrote the book. She is entitled to do so, just as anyone else. Maybe everything in it is not to your agreement, or many others, but it is called free speech. Read it, don't read it, make your own decision. I respect and admire Hilary. I did not always agree with her decisions or actions, but I felt she had the knowledge and ability to save this country. Was she the best candidate for this time? who knows, the choices were not that great to start with. If Hilary was a mediocre candidate, then what was Trump? I always compared our presidential choices akin to choosing a between a medical assistant versus a neurosurgeon if you needed brain surgery. She had done the work her whole life and had the skills, knowledge and expertise. Trump -not so much. And at some point we as voters must decide that selecting a candidate who is looking out for our fellow man is more important than voting for someone who promises us individually the world. The choice cannot be just about what will benefit you personally for the moment. It is a long term investment. I fear we will never recover form the damage and trust issues that this administration creating. I personally am looking forward to it, and will get my copy tonight. I just ordered the book too, am interested to read what she has to say. As to your statement above, bolded by me... you are being way too disrespectful of medical assistants in comparing them to Trump~! I can't think of the proper analogy though...
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Post by artgirl1 on Sept 13, 2017 21:02:28 GMT
As to your statement above, bolded by me... you are being way too disrespectful of medical assistants in comparing them to Trump~! I can't think of the proper analogy though... that was not a comparison of medical assistants to Trump, but an analogy of training, education and experience between Trump and HRC. and in this whole thread, that is the issue you want to comment on?
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Post by flanz on Sept 13, 2017 21:19:11 GMT
As to your statement above, bolded by me... you are being way too disrespectful of medical assistants in comparing them to Trump~! I can't think of the proper analogy though... that was not a comparison of medical assistants to Trump, but an analogy of training, education and experience between Trump and HRC. and in this whole thread, that is the issue you want to comment on? I was trying to be funny, but wit is not my strong suit...
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imsirius
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Post by imsirius on Sept 13, 2017 21:27:31 GMT
Very interesting article. I find it interesting that many of those people (who self-identify as "life long Democrats) said what I feel; Hillary (and to a large extent the entire Democratic party) pander to subsets of the population rather than America as a whole. They create divisiveness and make fellow Americans "the Others".Oh that's rich...lolololol
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 14, 2017 0:39:56 GMT
I'm quoting what these Democrats who voted for Trump actually said. WTF is wrong with you?
Looks like a good time to use the block feature.
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 14, 2017 0:45:17 GMT
I look forward to reading the book. We were robbed of what I feel would have been a good president. The hate for Hillary astounds me. It's so illogical. And it's appauling to me that 45 was elected after all the lies and horrible crap that came out of his mouth. Any other candidate in any other election would have been excoriated. I just can't believe this is what America wants in a president. Go Hillary, keep speaking, keep making money. Why shouldn't you? Why can others write books but you shouldn't? How were you "robbed"? There was an election and she lost. There's a whole lot of hate in this country and it doesn't look like it's going to end any time soon; and contrary to what some would like to believe, it comes from both directions. What I think some liberals have not yet realized is that castigating people into being quiet if they disagree doesn't mean these same people won't come out and vote. I think that's what happened here; people who voted for Trump were made to feel like they were "a basket of deplorables" so they didn't speak about who they were going to vote for; they just voted. And people were surprised at the outcome.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 0:49:23 GMT
I'm not a fan of Hillary. I didn't vote for her yet I fully expected her to win. I won't be reading her book. I don't like that she blames everyone and everything for her loss but takes no blame for herself. On Sunday she told Jane Pauley her "basket of deplorables" comment about Trump supporters had no bearing on her loss. WHAT??!! It had A LOT to do with her loss. She takes no responsibility for failing to campaign in Michigan and Wisconsin, she just assumed that the blue electoral wall would stand for her without her making any effort whatsoever. Wrong move, Hillary! She blames never-ending sexism and misogyny for her loss. I disagree completely. She won the popular vote. That means more than half the country voted for a woman president. You can't claim "I really won except for that pesky electoral college" and then claim you lost only because you're a woman. Can't have it both ways. I think America is really ready for a woman president but we don't want that woman to be Hillary. I think if Michelle Obama had run, even though she has no experience, she could've won. Heck, I think Oprah Winfrey could've won. And not only are they women, they are black women. I absolutely think they could run in the future and win which would just make Hillary look like even more of a loser. Politically inexperienced women of color could win over Hillary because they are likable and Hillary just isn't. Lastly, I was absolutely appalled on election night when Hillary refused to come downstairs and concede. Her supporters waited for hours, the tv networks were waiting, we were all waiting for her to put on a brave face, thank her supporters and concede to Trump and she just wouldn't do it. I really lost respect for her then. I know she was humiliated and was probably crying her eyes out but still. She needed to man up and come down and face the country. Any male candidate who was too upset to face the cameras and concede would be a complete laughing stock and would never be taken seriously as a political force again. Why does Hillary get a pass for not being able to do it? I've always wondered about that. Psst. As of 2016 there 323.1M people in this country. Out of that 323.1m 200M are registered voters. In the general election 61m out of the 200m did not vote. 65M of the 139m of those who did vote for Hillary does not equal "more than half the country voted for a woman". Minor detail but one people continue to get wrong. Just thought you might want to know. One other detail. You can't possibly know what part " sexism & misogyny" played in the election unless you went and talked to each of the 62M+/- who voted for trump and the 61M who didn't vote at all. Its kind of like that notion floating around about those who didn't vote for President Obama. They didn't vote for him because of his policies or because he was a black man. I suspect a segment didn't vote for President Obama because he was black just like I believe a segment of voters didn't vote for Hillary because she was a woman. In either case I doubt that we will really ever know for sure. But I'm pretty sure one can't say with any confidence that it didn't happen.
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 14, 2017 0:50:12 GMT
I agree with you. We often see it happen here where people will demand to know "why" someone posts a particular post. In the end, no one is entitled to an explanation of "why" another person chooses to write. They can make their own decision whether or not to read what is written.
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 14, 2017 0:51:28 GMT
Exactly. Which is why it's ridiculous for Hillary or any of her supporters to claim that she lost because she's a woman.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 1:14:53 GMT
She is manipulative or feels she was manipulated by others? She knows exactly what she's doing at all times. She might have what she feels are good motivations, but people see her as manipulative, another slick politician. What's wrong with one knowing what they are doing at all times? Yes she is a politician. But I don't think because one is a politician they are automatically slick. And I don't see Hillary as slick. A lot of things but not slick. And after working years in commercial insurance I know slick.
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Post by Zee on Sept 14, 2017 1:20:27 GMT
She knows exactly what she's doing at all times. She might have what she feels are good motivations, but people see her as manipulative, another slick politician. What's wrong with one knowing what they are doing at all times? Yes she is a politician. But I don't think because one is a politician they are automatically slick. And I don't see Hillary as slick. A lot of things but not slick. And after working years in commercial insurance I know slick. Nothing is wrong with it. I'm simply saying she knew not to have her emails on her private server. And you can be sure she had a reason for doing so. I don't think she ever thought it would blow up in her face, though. If you don't think she's slick, I guess that's your opinion, but it's not one a lot of people share. Nowhere did I say politician automatically equals slick. For example, I don't see Bernie as slick. You're putting a lot of your own interpretation onto my words.
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Post by leftturnonly on Sept 14, 2017 1:32:52 GMT
But why is she unlikeable? I find her politically unlikeable because she just doesn't seem to understand a great many things that are important to me. Here's a good example from this new book: The goal was to brainwash people into not having any independent thought thereby forcing them to rely on those who set public policy without resistance, questions or other dissent of any kind. I refuse to NOT question our leaders, the press, or our public policy "experts." How about you? Saying we need to rely on our leaders is q uite the contradiction to this: We have the right to disagree.And we need to rely on the press? Since when? Which press? The press that gives her softball questions and never holds her to account for her actions or the press that demands that she be treated like everyone else?
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Post by 2peaornot2pea on Sept 14, 2017 1:52:28 GMT
She is an amazing woman. She is not interested in throwing her hat in the political arena though. What's kind of humorous is that those who would wholeheartedly support this AA woman are the the same people who are labeld sexist and racist. Go figure. Hi Lauren, when did you come back to the boards?
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Post by Belia on Sept 14, 2017 1:56:00 GMT
I find it curious that Bernie Sanders came out with a book after he lost an election in 2016, and I don't recall anyone questioning why he felt the need to write a book, or accuse him of trying to derail or separate the party or be divisive by writing about his perspective.
Yet Hillary does (almost) the same and is criticized by folks on the left and the right and everywhere in between.
I think sexism and misogny definitely played a role in her loss. Only its not the "grab 'em by the pussy" sexism...its much more subtle than that.
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jayfab
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Post by jayfab on Sept 14, 2017 2:05:03 GMT
I look forward to reading the book. We were robbed of what I feel would have been a good president. The hate for Hillary astounds me. It's so illogical. And it's appauling to me that 45 was elected after all the lies and horrible crap that came out of his mouth. Any other candidate in any other election would have been excoriated. I just can't believe this is what America wants in a president. Go Hillary, keep speaking, keep making money. Why shouldn't you? Why can others write books but you shouldn't? How were you "robbed"? There was an election and she lost. There's a whole lot of hate in this country and it doesn't look like it's going to end any time soon; and contrary to what some would like to believe, it comes from both directions. What I think some liberals have not yet realized is that castigating people into being quiet if they disagree doesn't mean these same people won't come out and vote. I think that's what happened here; people who voted for Trump were made to feel like they were "a basket of deplorables" so they didn't speak about who they were going to vote for; they just voted. And people were surprised at the outcome. I obviously know who won and lost. This was far from any normal election. The abnormality of it makes me feel that way. SaveSave
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jayfab
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Post by jayfab on Sept 14, 2017 2:07:33 GMT
I find it curious that Bernie Sanders came out with a book after he lost an election in 2016, and I don't recall anyone questioning why he felt the need to write a book, or accuse him of trying to derail or separate the party or be divisive by writing about his perspective. Yet Hillary does (almost) the same and is criticized by folks on the left and the right and everywhere in between. I think sexism and misogny definitely played a role in her loss. Only its not the "grab 'em by the pussy" sexism...its much more subtle than that.Yup. And all those saying it didn't are not being honest with themselves. SaveSave
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 14, 2017 2:22:58 GMT
I find it curious that Bernie Sanders came out with a book after he lost an election in 2016, and I don't recall anyone questioning why he felt the need to write a book, or accuse him of trying to derail or separate the party or be divisive by writing about his perspective. Yet Hillary does (almost) the same and is criticized by folks on the left and the right and everywhere in between. I think sexism and misogny definitely played a role in her loss. Only its not the "grab 'em by the pussy" sexism...its much more subtle than that.Yup. And all those saying it didn't are not being honest with themselves. SaveSaveI think you're trying to find an easy answer to a complex question; one that focuses on anyone but Hillary herself. This is exactly what Hillary is doing.
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PLurker
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Post by PLurker on Sept 14, 2017 2:33:59 GMT
I find it curious that Bernie Sanders came out with a book after he lost an election in 2016, and I don't recall anyone questioning why he felt the need to write a book, or accuse him of trying to derail or separate the party or be divisive by writing about his perspective. Yet Hillary does (almost) the same and is criticized by folks on the left and the right and everywhere in between. I think sexism and misogny definitely played a role in her loss. Only its not the "grab 'em by the pussy" sexism...its much more subtle than that.Yup. And all those saying it didn't are not being honest with themselves. SaveSaveI agree as in that it played a part. There are too many variables/reasons to 'blame' just one but I know it played a part as I know of people who would not ever vote for a woman president period. So definately was a factor. Too many moving pieces to determine how much. @ilovetocolor I have heard HRC blame herself, partly. Because partly she is to blame. Again, a lot of things played a part. It all ends with her because it is about her, but lots of little and not so little reasons not under her control came into the play of her defeat.
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imsirius
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Post by imsirius on Sept 14, 2017 11:50:46 GMT
I'm quoting what these Democrats who voted for Trump actually said. WTF is wrong with you? Looks like a good time to use the block feature. And I was commenting on the quote. Never inferred YOU said it.
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jayfab
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Post by jayfab on Sept 14, 2017 12:07:13 GMT
Yup. And all those saying it didn't are not being honest with themselves. SaveSaveI think you're trying to find an easy answer to a complex question; one that focuses on anyone but Hillary herself. This is exactly what Hillary is doing. Definitely played a role in her loss not the role . No one is saying it was THE factor. It's not what Hillary is doing. She is saying there were many factors. Maybe you should read her book.
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