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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 12:16:48 GMT
I find it curious that Bernie Sanders came out with a book after he lost an election in 2016, and I don't recall anyone questioning why he felt the need to write a book, or accuse him of trying to derail or separate the party or be divisive by writing about his perspective. Yet Hillary does (almost) the same and is criticized by folks on the left and the right and everywhere in between. I think sexism and misogny definitely played a role in her loss. Only its not the "grab 'em by the pussy" sexism...its much more subtle than that. Bernie hasn't spent the past 10 months giving every reason under the sun as to why he lost. HRC even put some blame on him, saying he didn't support her enough. So maybe, just maybe, it's not because she's a woman, but because she keeps coming up with reasons and people to blame. Like someone upthread pointed out Clinton got more votes, so where and how does sexism and misogyny come in to play? She didn't get the votes where she needed to, and where she automatically assumed she would. On top of that, Bernie Sanders supporters didn't just jump on the HRC bandwagon like, again, she assumed they would. Then, add in that a lot of people just don't like her so didn't vote for her=HRC loss.
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Post by leftturnonly on Sept 14, 2017 14:35:52 GMT
I have heard HRC blame herself, partly. Hillary publicly, 1/8-assedly holding herself partly to blame, but not really. There's no sincerity in her limp mea culpas. Hmmm...... That rings a bell. Seems like I've seen this movie before. I just can not understand how people don't like her. /sarcasm Like someone upthread pointed out Clinton got more votes, so where and how does sexism and misogyny come in to play? She didn't get the votes where she needed to, and where she automatically assumed she would. But, but, but, you're saying that... gasp... Hillary might not have done her job as a candidate and actually gone out to the people she needed votes from. Say it isn't so! It can't be that. It's more likely all those women who now must be paraded up to her under strict instructions from their mothers to apologize for not voting! Yeah. That's why she didn't win! Those darn kids.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 14:54:09 GMT
I have heard HRC blame herself, partly. Hillary publicly, 1/8-assedly holding herself partly to blame, but not really. There's no sincerity in her limp mea culpas. Hmmm...... That rings a bell. Seems like I've seen this movie before. I just can not understand how people don't like her. /sarcasm Like someone upthread pointed out Clinton got more votes, so where and how does sexism and misogyny come in to play? She didn't get the votes where she needed to, and where she automatically assumed she would. But, but, but, you're saying that... gasp... Hillary might not have done her job as a candidate and actually gone out to the people she needed votes from. Say it isn't so! It can't be that. It's more likely all those women who now must be paraded up to her under strict instructions from their mothers to apologize for not voting! Yeah. That's why she didn't win! Those darn kids. My guess is no matter what Hillary says or does you aren't going to believe it. That's fair. Because I feel the same way about trump. And in all honesty I have sooo much more to work with and don't have to grasp at things to feed my dislike as you have to do with Hillary.
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 14, 2017 15:07:17 GMT
While we're discussing Hillary's gender, no male candidate has every complained for months and months after the election about how other people caused their loss. It makes Hillary look like a cry-baby who despite her bravado, really couldn't run with the big dogs. It doesn't look good for women.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Sept 14, 2017 15:36:20 GMT
Very interesting article. I find it interesting that many of those people (who self-identify as "life long Democrats) said what I feel; Hillary (and to a large extent the entire Democratic party) pander to subsets of the population rather than America as a whole. They create divisiveness and make fellow Americans "the Others". I don't think that at all. Republicans and trump? For sure. All we hear about is how his base feels about something. Even though they are a small number of people.
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Post by *leslie* on Sept 14, 2017 15:45:25 GMT
While we're discussing Hillary's gender, no male candidate has every complained for months and months after the election about how other people caused their loss. It makes Hillary look like a cry-baby who despite her bravado, really couldn't run with the big dogs. It doesn't look good for women. I not surprised by any of her blameshifting. I can't recall her or her husband ever taking responsibility for anything, unless it was positive. It's always someone else's fault. When her husband was screwing around it was always the other woman's fault or they were lying. Yet she calls herself a feminist.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 15:56:48 GMT
@fred Even though you quoted leftturnonly, I'm within that quote so wanted to respond.
For me, it's not a question of whether or not I believe HRC, but rather whether or not I agree with her.
An example, the Electoral College/Votes. From her interview on CNN yesterday, in part:
"Hillary Clinton told CNN on Wednesday that it is time to abolish the Electoral College, part of a sweeping interview where the former Democratic nominee sought to explain why she lost the 2016 election."
In addition:
"Clinton won the 2016 popular vote by nearly 3 million votes, a fact she routinely brings up in her new memoir. But Trump won the Electoral College, a body of 538 members who select the president based on the popular vote in each state, meaning the person who gets the most votes nationally doesn't necessarily win the election."
So that is fact--she lost because of the EC and it can't be disputed.
However, how does HRC getting nearly 3M more votes than Trump equate to a factor in loosing because of sexism and mysogyny? Is sexism only alive and well in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania? So for this claim, I disagree.
And lastly, regarding Bernie Sanders, she said this:
"Clinton writes that Sanders' attacks on her caused "lasting damage" and laid the groundwork for Trump's campaign against her. In her interview with CNN, Clinton says the "political sin" Sanders committed was not unifying the party fast enough by dropping out of the race once his campaign was clearly over."
For that she might be right, but it's her opinion. But being honest, politics are dirty, and why did she expect it to be different towards her? Using that as an excuse/reason is lame.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 16:00:24 GMT
Bernie hasn't spent the past 10 months giving every reason under the sun as to why he lost. HRC even put some blame on him, saying he didn't support her enough. So maybe, just maybe, it's not because she's a woman, but because she keeps coming up with reasons and people to blame. Like someone upthread pointed out Clinton got more votes, so where and how does sexism and misogyny come in to play? She didn't get the votes where she needed to, and where she automatically assumed she would. On top of that, Bernie Sanders supporters didn't just jump on the HRC bandwagon like, again, she assumed they would. Then, add in that a lot of people just don't like her so didn't vote for her=HRC loss. linkBernie spent plenty of time during the primaries moaning that the system was rigged against him. In his stump speeches he kept saying "Let the people vote" and I couldn't figure out who was stopping the people from voting. What I found out each state can decide what type of primary election/system for determining the delegates for the convention that leads to picking a nominee for the general election. The choices are open primary, closed primary, and caucuses. The decision of what system to use was determined long before Bernie "threw his hat into the ring" as a candidate for president.Bernie's greatest strength came from independents and not necessarily from registered Democrats. The problem became how to get the Bernie Bros registered so they could vote in the primaries. As far as the caucuses go I don't understand them so that is why I dug up this article from FiveThirtyEight that talks about caucuses and primaries and how they affected each canidate. What Bernie should have done was make sure he had people in every state making sure the Bernie Bros knew what they needed to do register to vote and know the rules of the caucuses. But he didn't he just kept chanting "let the people vote" and implying the system was rigged against him. Ignoring the fact the rules for the primaries were in place long the election cycle started. Add to that the DNC leaked emails that just showed the DNC was pushing for Hillary. But as someone pointed out if you look at the dates of those damning emails they were late May early June when it was clear Hillary was going to be the nominee and the DNC, like Hillary, was changing from "primary mode" to "general election mode". Something that you do if you want to win an election. And that did damage Hillary. Along with Bernie harping about Hillary giving a speech at Goldman Sachs like it was a moral sin. The trump campaign latched on to that and continued to use it against Hillary during the campaign. In the end while Bernie did campaign for Hillary he couldn't deliver the Bernie Bros. I read 12% voted for trump and we have no idea how many of the 61M that didn't vote were Bernie Bros. And there is no question in my mind that Bernie going on about the primaries were rigged agains him hurt Hillary in the general election.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 16:08:44 GMT
Bernie hasn't spent the past 10 months giving every reason under the sun as to why he lost. HRC even put some blame on him, saying he didn't support her enough. So maybe, just maybe, it's not because she's a woman, but because she keeps coming up with reasons and people to blame. Like someone upthread pointed out Clinton got more votes, so where and how does sexism and misogyny come in to play? She didn't get the votes where she needed to, and where she automatically assumed she would. On top of that, Bernie Sanders supporters didn't just jump on the HRC bandwagon like, again, she assumed they would. Then, add in that a lot of people just don't like her so didn't vote for her=HRC loss. linkBernie spent plenty of time during the primaries moaning that the system was rigged against him. In his stump speeches he kept saying "Let the people vote" and I couldn't figure out who was stopping the people from voting. What I found out each state can decide what type of primary election/system for determining the delegates for the convention that leads to picking a nominee for the general election. The choices are open primary, closed primary, and caucuses. The decision of what system to use was determined long before Bernie "threw his hat into the ring" as a candidate for president.Bernie's greatest strength came from independents and not necessarily from registered Democrats. The problem became how to get the Bernie Bros registered so they could vote in the primaries. As far as the caucuses go I don't understand them so that is why I dug up this article from FiveThirtyEight that talks about caucuses and primaries and how they affected each canidate. What Bernie should have done was make sure he had people in every state making sure the Bernie Bros knew what they needed to do register to vote and know the rules of the caucuses. But he didn't he just kept chanting "let the people vote" and implying the system was rigged against him. Ignoring the fact the rules for the primaries were in place long the election cycle started. Add to that the DNC leaked emails that just showed the DNC was pushing for Hillary. But as someone pointed out if you look at the dates of those damning emails they were late May early June when it was clear Hillary was going to be the nominee and the DNC, like Hillary, was changing from "primary mode" to "general election mode". Something that you do if you want to win an election. And that did damage Hillary. Along with Bernie harping about Hillary giving a speech at Goldman Sachs like it was a moral sin. The trump campaign latched on to that and continued to use it against Hillary during the campaign. In the end while Bernie did campaign for Hillary he couldn't deliver the Bernie Bros. I read 12% voted for trump and we have no idea how many of the 61M that didn't vote were Bernie Bros. And there is no question in my mind that Bernie going on about the primaries were rigged agains him hurt Hillary in the general election. I haven't read your link yet, but in my last post, I said she might be right about Bernie. However, I stand by politics are dirty. They're all fighting to win it for themselves, so all sides sling it. Trump had a hard time getting people in the GOP to even endorse him-and I totally understand why.
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 14, 2017 16:33:46 GMT
And let's not think for a second that Hillary didn't do everything she could, dirty or otherwise to win. It's the name of the game in politics.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 16:38:36 GMT
And let's not think for a second that Hillary didn't do everything she could, dirty or otherwise to win. It's the name of the game in politics. I totally agree. For some reason she thought it didn't apply to her I guess? And maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong--wasn't there heated debate about why would the DNC even consider endorsing Bernie because he's an independent? If that's how I remember it, then why would he even have to endorse and campaign for her? He didn't, but chose to, but not quick enough to her expectations I guess? If I'm wrong about my comment, completely ignore my last paragraph.
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Post by leftturnonly on Sept 14, 2017 16:41:48 GMT
Since this is a catch all - I just want to add that I like Hillary's new hair style. I think it's very flattering for her face shape.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 17:47:56 GMT
Hillary has taken responsibility for the mistakes her campaign made because as she said it's her campaign. And mistakes were made.
I think her biggest mistake was when she backed down from the coal miners. I think she should have kept pushing the fact that as this country turns away from fossil fuels and automation continues to evolve jobs are going to disappear and new jobs will be created and as a country we need to make sure the workers have the skills needed for these jobs.
Having said that there were an awful lot of outside stuff that did affect her campaign that she had no control over. But for some reason she isn't suppose to talk about that. That we are suppose to ignore these outside forces and the affect they had on the election. Situations that could have an affect on future elections.
Lets look at the list the sarcastic reporter put together that I posted earlier.
1. Russia - Besides hacking the DNC and RNC and just leaking the DNC emails we now know they also made their way to voting equipment in certain states and precincts. We are starting to find out how they use Social Media like Facebook. It happened so why shouldn't Hillary talk about it? The trump administration is trying to pretend it never happened.
2. Comey and the letter about nothing 9 days before the election. This is what FiveThrityEight said cost Hillary the election. They average polls and they showed the day after the letter came out her approval rating tanked. It had started to come back up by the election but the damage was done. You can argue from now until the end of time about the emails. But the matter was settled in July when they found while she was extremely careless therecwas no intent on her part to put classified information at risk. Lacking "intent" no criminal charges were filed. Those who know about these things said without more evidence the letter should not have been released.
3. The press made the emails a bigger scandal then they really were. True. There is no system that can't be hacked. Truth be told her server was probably as secured as the State Departments. It looked bad but not the stuff of a great scandal.
4. Deep currents of anger and resentment flowing through our culture. Boy is that true.
5. The media gave trump free wall to wall coverage. Boy this was true. During the campaign I would turn on MSNBC most of the coverage was trump trump trump.
6. Fox News was turning Politics into an evidence free zone of seething resentments. I can't add anything to this.
7 Sexism & misogymy. What surprises me is how many women are certain sexism didn't have a part in the outcome of this election. Even after a history of discrimination against women and it took until 2016 for this country to have a woman nominee for president. That somehow because she won the popular vote sexism/misogyny didn't play a part in the election. I think, based on our history, it's plausible some did not vote for Hillary because she is a woman. Just like I believe it's plausable, based on our history, some did not vote for President Obama because he was a black man.
8. History shows it's hard to elect another Democrat/Republican after one has been in the White House the previous 8 years. There could be some truth to this.
9. There was also "Clinton fatigue" to consider. I took that to mean that a) they were tried of hearing the Clinton name or b) some didn't want another Clinton in the White House or another Bush in the White. I read that on this board more than once so there might be some truth in that.
What was not on the list and popped up on this thread more than once was "likability". That the election of the president was a popularity contest. Silly me I didn't know we were electing the President of some student body where popularity matters. I'm personally more interested in electing a president who I feel has the ability to run this country. And they don't have to be my favorite person if I believe they can run the country and not get us in a nuclear war with let's say North Korea among other things.
I don't think any other Presidential Candidate has had this many " outside forces" that could affect the outcome of an election. Some of these "outside forces" probably did. And some could be attributed to Hillary's action like the Comey letter about nothing. But a lot could also affect future elections and IMO we should be aware of them. And talk about them.
I'm also thinking that because she lost, some feel she should just go away as she has nothing to say. Because this country doesn't like losers. So much for that "at least you tried" or "you gave it your best shot" stuff we tell our kids. Because in the end what matters most is winning. Sad.
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Post by lisacharlotte on Sept 14, 2017 17:53:32 GMT
Since this is a catch all - I just want to add that I like Hillary's new hair style. I think it's very flattering for her face shape. I said the same thing yesterday to DH. She looks really good.
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Post by papersilly on Sept 14, 2017 17:54:59 GMT
Since this is a catch all - I just want to add that I like Hillary's new hair style. I think it's very flattering for her face shape. she's got a new do? i wanna see. do you have a link to a recent pic?
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Post by leftturnonly on Sept 14, 2017 18:02:07 GMT
she's got a new do? i wanna see. do you have a link to a recent pic? FWIW, this is not the most flattering photo, but it's the best I could find quickly. Maybe someone else will have better luck.
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Peal
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 25, 2014 22:45:40 GMT
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Post by Peal on Sept 14, 2017 18:03:38 GMT
Hillary has taken responsibility for the mistakes her campaign made because as she said it's her campaign. And mistakes were made. I think her biggest mistake was when she backed down from the coal miners. I think she should have kept pushing the fact that as this country turns away from fossil fuels and automation continues to evolve jobs are going to disappear and new jobs will be created and as a country we need to make sure the workers have the skills needed for these jobs. Having said that there were an awful lot of outside stuff that did affect her campaign that she had no control over. But for some reason she isn't suppose to talk about that. That we are suppose to ignore these outside forces and the affect they had on the election. Situations that could have an affect on future elections. Lets look at the list the sarcastic reporter put together that I posted earlier. 1. Russia - Besides hacking the DNC and RNC and just leaking the DNC emails we now know they also made their way to voting equipment in certain states and precincts. We are starting to find out how they use Social Media like Facebook. It happened so why shouldn't Hillary talk about it? The trump administration is trying to pretend it never happened. 2. Comey and the letter about nothing 9 days before the election. This is what FiveThrityEight said cost Hillary the election. They average polls and they showed the day after the letter came out her approval rating tanked. It had started to come back up by the election but the damage was done. You can argue from now until the end of time about the emails. But the matter was settled in July when they found while she was extremely careless therecwas no intent on her part to put classified information at risk. Lacking "intent" no criminal charges were filed. Those who know about these things said without more evidence the letter should not have been released. 3. The press made the emails a bigger scandal then they really were. True. There is no system that can't be hacked. Truth be told her server was probably as secured as the State Departments. It looked bad but not the stuff of a great scandal. 4. Deep currents of anger and resentment flowing through our culture. Boy is that true. 5. The media gave trump free wall to wall coverage. Boy this was true. During the campaign I would turn on MSNBC most of the coverage was trump trump trump. 6. Fox News was turning Politics into an evidence free zone of seething resentments. I can't add anything to this. 7 Sexism & misogymy. What surprises me is how many women are certain sexism didn't have a part in the outcome of this election. Even after a history of discrimination against women and it took until 2016 for this country to have a woman nominee for president. That somehow because she won the popular vote sexism/misogyny didn't play a part in the election. I think, based on our history, it's plausible some did not vote for Hillary because she is a woman. Just like I believe it's plausable, based on our history, some did not vote for President Obama because he was a black man. 8. History shows it's hard to elect another Democrat/Republican after one has been in the White House the previous 8 years. There could be some truth to this. 9. There was also "Clinton fatigue" to consider. I took that to mean that a) they were tried of hearing the Clinton name or b) some didn't want another Clinton in the White House or another Bush in the White. I read that on this board more than once so there might be some truth in that. What was not on the list and popped up on this thread more than once was "likability". That the election of the president was a popularity contest. Silly me I didn't know we were electing the President of some student body where popularity matters. I'm personally more interested in electing a president who I feel has the ability to run this country. And they don't have to be my favorite person if I believe they can run the country and not get us in a nuclear war with let's say North Korea among other things. I don't think any other Presidential Candidate has had this many " outside forces" that could affect the outcome of an election. Some of these "outside forces" probably did. And some could be attributed to Hillary's action like the Comey letter about nothing. But a lot could also affect future elections and IMO we should be aware of them. And talk about them. I'm also thinking that because she lost, some feel she should just go away as she has nothing to say. Because this country doesn't like losers. So much for that "at least you tried" or "you gave it your best shot" stuff we tell our kids. Because in the end what matters most is winning. Sad. I have to say, regarding the points I bolded, I think the Press holds a lot of responsibility for how the election turned out. What they chose to report on and how insistently they did helps explain, to me at least, how Trump even made it past the primaries. And then, after months of covering Trump's every move, they somehow seemed shocked he was the nominee. He's the only one anyone heard anything about. I also think every candidate has something about them that some group will never, ever vote for. I'd like to stop electing Dynasties. We had two Bushs and look how that turned out. Plus, another one was running. Maybe we, as a country, don't really want families to hold the office of President. Save
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 14, 2017 18:05:46 GMT
I'm just going to respond to a few of the points:
4. There definitely was deep resentment in this country. However, it went all ways. People were and continue to be angry; the only differences are what they are angry about. I don't think necessarily contributed to Hillary's loss in the way she thinks it does.
5. Yes, the media gave Trump wall to wall coverage but if you recall 98% of it was negative. If anything, that coverage helped her.
6. The same was true for the media in general. Fox News was not the only media that didn't need evidence before reporting and in fact, CNN, MSNBC, CBS and others were firmly in Hillary's court vs the one agency that favored Trump. One of my biggest gripes about the media is that they no longer report facts; they choose to embellish and comment on the facts they are reporting.
7. Sure it's "plausible" that people didn't vote for her because of her gender. However, considering the allegations in #6 (ie, making statements that are evidence free) I find it hard to accept as "fact" things that are "plausible".
8. I think this is true. People get tired of the party in office. But it didn't just happen to Hillary. It's happened as far back as FDR.
9. I agree that people were tired of the Clintons. They were also tired of the Bushes. This was thrown up repeatedly during the Republican primaries. We don't like the idea of presidential dynasties in this country. I chuckle now because I've seen several facebook claims that Michelle Obama is perfect to be the Democratic candidate in 2020. People just don't learn.
"I'm also thinking that because she lost, some feel she should just go away as she has nothing to say. "
I am one of those who thinks she should go away. Not because she has nothing to say but rather because she has spent the last ten months moaning about her loss and who's at fault for it. It's not that we don't like losers; we don't like whiners. We like people who pick themselves up and move on after loss or disappointment. Hillary could do a lot of good for the Democratic party and for liberal policies if she looked forward instead of back. She doesn't have to be President or even in office in order to do good things for the causes she claims to love.
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Post by papersilly on Sept 14, 2017 18:13:39 GMT
she's got a new do? i wanna see. do you have a link to a recent pic? FWIW, this is not the most flattering photo, but it's the best I could find quickly. Maybe someone else will have better luck. hmmmm, i liked her hair during the campaign so i don't know if i like this new one. i do love her highlights. the color is great.
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Post by leftturnonly on Sept 14, 2017 18:31:34 GMT
FWIW, this is not the most flattering photo, but it's the best I could find quickly. Maybe someone else will have better luck. hmmmm, i liked her hair during the campaign so i don't know if i like this new one. i do love her highlights. the color is great. I loved it during the DNC. I think this is even more flattering. (The pic doesn't do it justice.) The color and highlights look so nice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 19:16:11 GMT
I know many people who said they'd have voted for Condoleeza Rice(sp) in a heartbeat. I don't believe he loss what attributable to her gender. I so badly wanted Condoleeza Rice to run. I'm one who would have voted for her without a second's hesitation. Hillary? Never in a billion years. Not because she's a woman, but because she's slimy and I wouldn't trust her with a bag of beans.
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Post by artgirl1 on Sept 14, 2017 19:20:01 GMT
What was not on the list and popped up on this thread more than once was "likability". That the election of the president was a popularity contest. Silly me I didn't know we were electing the President of some student body where popularity matters. I'm personally more interested in electing a president who I feel has the ability to run this country. And they don't have to be my favorite person if I believe they can run the country and not get us in a nuclear war with let's say North Korea among other things. This is what I find the most irritating factor. All those people that don't like Hillary. Do you know her? Have you had a conversation with her to determine whether she is likeable? All this likeability is based upon what was reflected on the campaign, or her actions a SOS, or as flotus. Many times I Have watched her and thought, "aw Hil, your not doing yourself any favor here". But I actually did meet her once, and found her, in person to be warm, and engaging, and sincere. She talks to (you)/me as if I was the only person in the room. I also feel, as I am of an age similar to her, that we were taught different behaviors way back then, when women were starting to come out of the 50/60's cookie cutter, and starting to strive to contribute in more proactive ways. Like Hilary, I graduated from college in the early 70's with an honors degree in Political Science/Communications, and went to work (for a Congressman) in in DC for 2 years. Back then, we (women) developed and drafted the policy, but our names were not included, and always a man got the credit. As women doing those times, you learned to be sneaky to effect any change. Old habits die hard, and Hilary has been in politics for many years. She has had to tilt at windmills her whole career. She has had to adapt to accomplish as much as she has. I think many need to stop judging her as harshly as they do, and start considering all the other factors which contribute to her makeup. Women are our own worst enemies. Let's start judging men (as in politicians) by the same standards.
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 14, 2017 19:28:10 GMT
You don't think we do?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 19:29:28 GMT
While we're discussing Hillary's gender, no male candidate has every complained for months and months after the election about how other people caused their loss. It makes Hillary look like a cry-baby who despite her bravado, really couldn't run with the big dogs. It doesn't look good for women. I not surprised by any of her blameshifting. I can't recall her or her husband ever taking responsibility for anything, unless it was positive. It's always someone else's fault. When her husband was screwing around it was always the other woman's fault or they were lying. Yet she calls herself a feminist. So many scandals involving the Clinton's.
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MsKnit
Pearl Clutcher
RefuPea #1406
Posts: 2,648
Jun 26, 2014 19:06:42 GMT
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Post by MsKnit on Sept 14, 2017 19:30:20 GMT
A Washington Examiner reporter by the name of Sarah Westwood tweeted "Only a couple chapters in & here are all the things Clinton has blamed for her election loss so far." Rather sarcastically she listed the reasons... 1. The audacious information warfare waged from the Kremlin. 2. The unprecedented intervention to our election by the director of the FBI. 3. A political press that told voters that my emails were the most important story. 4. Deep currents of anger & resentment flowing through our culture. 5. The media gave trump free wall to wall coverage. 6. Fox News was turning Politics into an evidence-free zone of seething resentment. 7. Maybe it's because I'm a woman running for president. 8. The problem started with history. It was exceedingly difficult for either party to hold onto the White House for more than 8 years in a row. 9. There was also "Clinton fatique" to consider. Nate Silver responded to the tweet with... "A pretty good list. At least 5 or 6 of these were more important to Clinton’s defeat than, e.g., her decision not to campaign in Wisconsin." If you really look at the list and ignore the sarcasm there is a lot of truth in the reasons listed. But if one has a closed mind like the sarcastic reporter...... Another reason, I think, is that after having the first black president the pendulum of change swung the other way. People were not ready for the first woman president. I can not remember what it's called. Learned about it in Psychology. I have her book in my Amazon cart. Not a fan and I don't know why. However, I am kind of curious to hear her take on some things. Like Benghazi...What did she know and when? Not looking to accuse anyone of anything in that situation. Quite frankly, I'm not sure how much time the US military had to help. When did they first get word there was an issue? What could have been done? Hindsight...should they have remained after the other countries pulled there people out? What made the difference for the other countries to pull their people out?
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 14, 2017 19:35:59 GMT
What was not on the list and popped up on this thread more than once was "likability". That the election of the president was a popularity contest. Silly me I didn't know we were electing the President of some student body where popularity matters. I'm personally more interested in electing a president who I feel has the ability to run this country. And they don't have to be my favorite person if I believe they can run the country and not get us in a nuclear war with let's say North Korea among other things. This is what I find the most irritating factor. All those people that don't like Hillary. Do you know her? Have you had a conversation with her to determine whether she is likeable? All this likeability is based upon what was reflected on the campaign, or her actions a SOS, or as flotus. Many times I Have watched her and thought, "aw Hil, your not doing yourself any favor here". But I actually did meet her once, and found her, in person to be warm, and engaging, and sincere. She talks to (you)/me as if I was the only person in the room. I also feel, as I am of an age similar to her, that we were taught different behaviors way back then, when women were starting to come out of the 50/60's cookie cutter, and starting to strive to contribute in more proactive ways. Like Hilary, I graduated from college in the early 70's with an honors degree in Political Science/Communications, and went to work (for a Congressman) in in DC for 2 years. Back then, we (women) developed and drafted the policy, but our names were not included, and always a man got the credit. As women doing those times, you learned to be sneaky to effect any change. Old habits die hard, and Hilary has been in politics for many years. She has had to tilt at windmills her whole career. She has had to adapt to accomplish as much as she has. I think many need to stop judging her as harshly as they do, and start considering all the other factors which contribute to her makeup. Women are our own worst enemies. Let's start judging men (as in politicians) by the same standards. But we do. We're as thoroughly ridiculous with male candidates. I could make an extensive list of all the presidents who were elected over a more qualified candidate - due to "likability." I actually think there's more of a precedent for electing the LESS qualified candidate. Just take height for instance - the idea that there's a huge statistical advantage based on your height - the greater the discrepancy the greater the advantage - is ludicrous. Why Americans prefer a president they can drink a beer with is an utter mystery to me - but I am not going to deny it's importance on election outcomes. Oh - and BTW, I have met Hillary Clinton a few times and agree that she is much more charismatic in person (which I stated earlier in the thread) - I'll even go further and say her stump speech is better in person than on TV. I do disagree that she talks to you like you're the only person in the room - she's just okay there for a politician IMO. Bill Clinton on the other hand is crazy good - my husband (who is NOT a fan) commented on just how charismatic he is in person.
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Post by Zee on Sept 14, 2017 19:39:24 GMT
Since this is a catch all - I just want to add that I like Hillary's new hair style. I think it's very flattering for her face shape. I agree, saw her on the Today Show and she looked very fresh, rested and composed.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Sept 14, 2017 19:52:32 GMT
I'm not interested in reading her book (and am tired of all the post-election deconstruction, although I think it is important for the Democratic party to take stock), but have been interested in her interviews. The only one I've listened to so far was her interview on Pod Save America and I thought it was really good, although I find the Russia stuff frightening. I know this has been downplayed by many because they feel it is fake news, sour grapes, whatever, but I think the threat from Russia is real (just ask Ukraine about that - fake news in Ukraine stoked the fires of war there and Russia has been testing a lot of their hacking in Ukraine where it has largely gone unchecked - things like hacking into the power grid and shutting it down).
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Post by leftturnonly on Sept 14, 2017 21:05:51 GMT
Another reason, I think, is that after having the first black president the pendulum of change swung the other way. People were not ready for the first woman president. It would be really nice for people to acknowledge that many of us were ready for the first black woman president. It's not always about race. It's not always about sex. Sometimes, it really is all about Hillary and how many just weren't into her.
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Post by roxley on Sept 14, 2017 21:12:16 GMT
Erie County (NY) has 285k registered democrats and 152k registered republicans. Hilary came to a auto museum that has a capacity of 3k in April of 2016. Trump came to the Key Bank Arena that has a capacity of 19k in April of 2016. Crowd was approx 11k. This is, as I mentioned above, a hugely democratic county, state and city. She is simply not likable. But why is she unlikeable? I personally don't see her being any more unlikeable than any other politician than I have seen in regards to demeanor, body language, etc. I find her to be much more calm and respectful than most of the male politicians. Is it that as a woman, she doesn't fit the typical stereotype of what people think a woman should be like? Wish I could like this 10 times.
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