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Post by theroadlesstraveledp on Oct 26, 2017 17:18:47 GMT
Parkinson's disease can come with dementia. My grandfather had Parkinson's disease dementia, some of the things he did were very out of character or him due to the dementia. I don't think I need to give examples here, as many of you already did. I think the whole #metoo campaign has gone into a unintended direction, and find it interesting how the actress in question wrote the long post, and then deleted it. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5014447/Actress-alleges-George-H-W-Bush-sexually-assaulted-her.htmlIt wasn't really political until the actress in question made it that way in her statement, to the press as noted in this article. Does it make what he did acceptable? No. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 26, 2017 17:20:45 GMT
First I'll validate these women in the sense that they're free to feel uncomfortable with a man of any age patting their behind. It's not appropriate and they shouldn't have to grin and take the picture. If the first woman had went on instragram after the incident and posted a PSA to other women that GHWB is getting handsey in his old age and you might not want to stand next to his wheelchair - I wouldn't have had an issue with it - and it also might have made others around him think about how to approach these photo ops depending on his current mental faculties.
Now my huge issue is calling this sexual assault. This is not sexual assault. If this falls under some definition of sexual assault, we need to change the definition - or find other language to describe unwelcome behavior. We can't equate a pat on the ass with forcible rape. That's asinine. I made a similar comment on the #metoo thread. I think raising awareness of different types of misogynistic behavior is fine. Making people aware of workplace harrasment and how the difference in power between the participants plays into that is important - particularly as it's so freaking common.
But context is important. Language manners. I'm very worried women may experience a significant backlash if people think they are exaggerating the harm.
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Post by theroadlesstraveledp on Oct 26, 2017 17:34:15 GMT
Has the family confirmed dementia or Alzheimer's? I think it would be the brave choice to do so. It's really any family's decision on whether to announce a diagnosis of dementia or Alzheimer's. While some see it as brave to do so, others view it as an invasion of privacy. As far as a Bush announcement on his condition, there has been none here that I'm aware of. He does appear to be quite frail though. I'll admit that I just skimmed the article but I question the term "assault" A 90-something year old man in a wheelchair? I realize that what he allegedly did was completely inappropriate, but I would not classify it as "sexual assault". I worry that that term is going to get tossed around too much - it loses its impact.I agree with you. This is happening in the media now with these and other phrases and the result is that many just tune it out when they hear it. Yes it's a personal thing for them, and for anyone who has been through this #parkisonsdiseasesucks It's not a secret that he has Parkinson's, and yes the family has come out to talk about it. This info has been mentioned by the media and has appeared in news articles beginning in 2012. www.newsmax.com/Health/Headline/George-Bush-Srs-Parkinson-s-battle-disease-brain-condition-vascular-parkinsonism-serial-strokes/2012/07/18/id/483275/The family has also done documentary with HBO, on his life that covers his struggle with Parkinson's also dated at 2012. houston.culturemap.com/news/city-life/06-08-12-george-hw-bush-can-no-longer-walk-on-his-own-parkinsons-struggle-revealed-with-new-hbo-doc/#slide=0Yes he looks frail, we are talking about a disease that is degenerative. "Parkinson's disease is a chronic, degenerative neurological disorder that affects one in 100 people over age 60." From the Michael J. Fox foundation. It doesn't get better, yes medication helps, but it gets progressively worse over time. The face mask Bush Sr. has is indicative to the disease. I agree, the #metoo movement I think is not moving in the direction it was intended to. |
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inkedup
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Post by inkedup on Oct 26, 2017 17:56:34 GMT
Wait wait wait, hold up. Because she is an actress not a nurse Because it only happened once Because it wasn't like he raped her She shouldn't speak up and say that she was touched in a way that was not appropriate? That takes it too far because her complaint just isn't legitimate enough? This is why #metoo even exists, because women have been told for a long time that we are overreacting when we are treated as objects to be handled, that covers a lot of different experiences from inappropriate words to forcible rape and a lot in between including groping, being rubbed against in the subway, and other things that might only happen once and might be "just annoying" but still isn't okay. Of course forcible rape is different than having someone grab your ass, but that doesn't make groping okay. To me, #metoo is about asserting my right to exist in the world without being touched, spoken to, or otherwise treated in a way that I don't consent to. Grabbing my ass even once is not something I consent to and I object to the idea that any woman isn't important enough to say someone touched me in a way I didn't consent to and that's not okay. No one that I read said that touching without consent is ever okay. What many of us have said is that a pat on the butt is not sexual assault, as this person claimed. |
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carhoch
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Post by carhoch on Oct 26, 2017 18:05:55 GMT
He is really old and very sick and I really don’t think he’s totally there mentally anymore and that take him totally off the hook in my book .
Sexual harassment is about power and I think that we can all agree that in this case it’s not the case .
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Post by pondrunner on Oct 26, 2017 18:12:05 GMT
Wait wait wait, hold up. Because she is an actress not a nurse Because it only happened once Because it wasn't like he raped her She shouldn't speak up and say that she was touched in a way that was not appropriate? That takes it too far because her complaint just isn't legitimate enough? This is why #metoo even exists, because women have been told for a long time that we are overreacting when we are treated as objects to be handled, that covers a lot of different experiences from inappropriate words to forcible rape and a lot in between including groping, being rubbed against in the subway, and other things that might only happen once and might be "just annoying" but still isn't okay. Of course forcible rape is different than having someone grab your ass, but that doesn't make groping okay. To me, #metoo is about asserting my right to exist in the world without being touched, spoken to, or otherwise treated in a way that I don't consent to. Grabbing my ass even once is not something I consent to and I object to the idea that any woman isn't important enough to say someone touched me in a way I didn't consent to and that's not okay. No one that I read said that touching without consent is ever okay. What many of us have said is that a pat on the butt is not sexual assault, as this person claimed. Sexual assault involves more than rape. Lesser forms of sexual assault are things like fondling or groping, sexualized touching that occurs without consent. |
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peppermintpatty
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Post by peppermintpatty on Oct 26, 2017 18:14:21 GMT
I am really surprised and disappointed by this. I don't want to excuse what he may have done -but I do wonder about his mental capabilities. Why would this disappoint you? He is 90 and has served his country. |
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inkedup
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Post by inkedup on Oct 26, 2017 18:16:30 GMT
No one that I read said that touching without consent is ever okay. What many of us have said is that a pat on the butt is not sexual assault, as this person claimed. Sexual assault involves more than rape. Lesser forms of sexual assault are things like fondling or groping, sexualized touching that occurs without consent. To call the scenario being discussed assault on any level is an insult to actual victims of assault. I have been assaulted in my life, and I can tell you I would have much preferred a pat on the butt to the things that happened to me. I'm done arguing this point. It's kind of gross to me that some people are stretching the meaning of words and clamoring to join the "victims of sexual assault" club. You're welcome to equate a pat on the butt with sexual assault. I'm free to say that's a bunch of hogwash. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 26, 2017 18:34:30 GMT
No one that I read said that touching without consent is ever okay. What many of us have said is that a pat on the butt is not sexual assault, as this person claimed. Correct! |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Oct 26, 2017 18:37:48 GMT
We can't even allow another woman to make the choice of what equates assault to her person yet we wonder why old white men make so many choices for us.
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Post by pondrunner on Oct 26, 2017 18:43:57 GMT
Sexual assault involves more than rape. Lesser forms of sexual assault are things like fondling or groping, sexualized touching that occurs without consent. To call the scenario being discussed assault on any level is an insult to actual victims of assault. I have been assaulted in my life, and I can tell you I would have much preferred a pat on the butt to the things that happened to me. I'm done arguing this point. It's kind of gross to me that some people are stretching the meaning of words and clamoring to join the "victims of sexual assault" club. You're welcome to equate a pat on the butt with sexual assault. I'm free to say that's a bunch of hogwash. Im not equating groping with anything, including very horrible and life altering forms of sexual assault and sexual violence. Those things do exist along a spectrum and while there is a wide range of severity and impact I am arguing that a woman who was touched in a way that was sexual and non consensual has a right to define that experience as inappropriate. That doesn't negate the seriousness and pain of sexual violence. My experience of non consensual sexual conduct in and out of the work place is much less severe than that of some of my peers. Gosh what some women have endured would ruin most of us. But I still maintain that nonconsensual sexual contact is worthy of being named and called out. You are incorrect that I equated these things. In the original post I made and you quoted I was very clear about this. |
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inkedup
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Post by inkedup on Oct 26, 2017 18:46:20 GMT
To call the scenario being discussed assault on any level is an insult to actual victims of assault. I have been assaulted in my life, and I can tell you I would have much preferred a pat on the butt to the things that happened to me. I'm done arguing this point. It's kind of gross to me that some people are stretching the meaning of words and clamoring to join the "victims of sexual assault" club. You're welcome to equate a pat on the butt with sexual assault. I'm free to say that's a bunch of hogwash. Im not equating groping with anything, including very horrible and life altering forms of sexual assault and sexual violence. Those things do exist along a spectrum and while there is a wide range of severity and impact I am arguing that a woman who was touched in a way that was sexual and non consensual has a right to define that experience as inappropriate. That doesn't negate the seriousness and pain of sexual violence. My experience of non consensual sexual conduct in and out of the work place is much less severe than that of some of my peers. Gosh what some women have endured would ruin most of us. But I still maintain that nonconsensual sexual contact is worthy of being named and called out. you are making a straw man argument. no one said that these women should excuse or be silent about anything that has happened to them. |
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Post by pondrunner on Oct 26, 2017 18:47:53 GMT
Im not equating groping with anything, including very horrible and life altering forms of sexual assault and sexual violence. Those things do exist along a spectrum and while there is a wide range of severity and impact I am arguing that a woman who was touched in a way that was sexual and non consensual has a right to define that experience as inappropriate. That doesn't negate the seriousness and pain of sexual violence. My experience of non consensual sexual conduct in and out of the work place is much less severe than that of some of my peers. Gosh what some women have endured would ruin most of us. But I still maintain that nonconsensual sexual contact is worthy of being named and called out. you are making a straw man argument. no one said that these women should excuse or be silent about anything that has happened to them. This is incorrect, in this very thread numerous people have said she needs to get a life if she can't deal with this kind of thing and she needs to get over herself. The reason that is an incorrect statement is that it is not up to a woman to get over herself when a man touch with her inappropriately, it is up to the man not to touch her inappropriately in the first place. "Get over yourself/get over it" absolutely is silencing. ...so what if he accidentally touched her butt... ...it's because of the dementia... ...she waited too long/handled it wrong/misunderstood... ...it was a joke... (what he said in his apology)... |
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Dalai Mama
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Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Oct 26, 2017 18:55:20 GMT
First I'll validate these women in the sense that they're free to feel uncomfortable with a man of any age patting their behind. It's not appropriate and they shouldn't have to grin and take the picture. If the first woman had went on instragram after the incident and posted a PSA to other women that GHWB is getting handsey in his old age and you might not want to stand next to his wheelchair - I wouldn't have had an issue with it - and it also might have made others around him think about how to approach these photo ops depending on his current mental faculties. Now my huge issue is calling this sexual assault. This is not sexual assault. If this falls under some definition of sexual assault, we need to change the definition - or find other language to describe unwelcome behavior. We can't equate a pat on the ass with forcible rape. That's asinine. I made a similar comment on the #metoo thread. I think raising awareness of different types of misogynistic behavior is fine. Making people aware of workplace harrasment and how the difference in power between the participants plays into that is important - particularly as it's so freaking common. But context is important. Language manners. I'm very worried women may experience a significant backlash if people think they are exaggerating the harm. I don't think anyone is equating a pat on the ass with forcible rape. But that doesn't mean that they aren't both sexual assault - that is why the criminal code breaks them down into degrees.
Did he sexually assault her? Possibly. Is he legally or even morally culpable? Doubtful.
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rodeomom
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Jun 25, 2014 23:34:38 GMT
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Post by rodeomom on Oct 26, 2017 19:51:58 GMT
Just wondering what at would be called if someone came up from behind you and grabbed both your breasts and held on until you walked down 2 flights of stairs?
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 26, 2017 19:58:50 GMT
Not down the stairs, but I was only 13 years old!
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 26, 2017 20:00:38 GMT
Just wondering what at would be called if someone came up from behind you and grabbed both your breasts and held on until you walked down 2 flights of stairs? Assault! |
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Post by librarylady on Oct 26, 2017 20:04:19 GMT
Just wondering what at would be called if someone came up from behind you and grabbed both your breasts and held on until you walked down 2 flights of stairs? That would be assault. |
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rodeomom
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by rodeomom on Oct 26, 2017 20:07:51 GMT
Just wondering what at would be called if someone came up from behind you and grabbed both your breasts and held on until you walked down 2 flights of stairs? Assault! Would it make a difference if the guy was handicapped in a wheelchair and could not walk? What if he had asked the girl to help him down the stairs and she willingly did? What if at first she didn't know if that was where he had intended to grab her? |
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Post by librarylady on Oct 26, 2017 20:09:10 GMT
I have read in 2 places that he told her, "Want to know my favorite magician?" "It is David Cop-A-Feel."
I would not call that a dirty joke....at least when compared to the dirty jokes I have heard.
I'd call it a lame joke that no one would find funny.
However, told in conjunction with him putting his hand on her behind, it lets me know that he/Bush knows what he is doing and thinks his age and the wheelchair give him "permission" to do it.
I'm not amused, it lowers my opinion of him, but IMO, it does not rise to the level of calling it an assault.
It is an assault on dignity.
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Post by librarylady on Oct 26, 2017 20:15:51 GMT
Would it make a difference if the guy was handicapped in a wheelchair and could not walk? What if he had asked the girl to help him down the stairs and she willingly did? What if at first she didn't know if that was where he had intended to grab her? Wait--- if he can't walk, and she is helping him and wheelchair down stairs--I'm not sure of all the positioning to do this. Regardless--if you (or any female) was grabbed on both breasts, that is an assault. ..wheelchair does not make it OK. In Bush case, I thought he put hand around her for the photo and made sure his hand rested on her buttocks. slightly different, but resting hand vs firm grab by hand = degree of offense. It is entirely possible (and maybe probable) that Daddy Bush made sure he stayed just on the safe side of "my hand is only resting there" vs a firm grab of the buttocks. --I'll be willing to bet Bush has had his last photo op with grabbing anyone's buttocks. |
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rodeomom
Pearl Clutcher
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Posts: 3,658
Location: Chickasaw Nation, Oklahoma
Jun 25, 2014 23:34:38 GMT
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Post by rodeomom on Oct 26, 2017 20:23:27 GMT
Would it make a difference if the guy was handicapped in a wheelchair and could not walk? What if he had asked the girl to help him down the stairs and she willingly did? What if at first she didn't know if that was where he had intended to grab her? Wait--- if he can't walk, and she is helping him and wheelchair down stairs--I'm not sure of all the positioning to do this. Regardless--if you (or any female) was grabbed on both breasts, that is an assault. ..wheelchair does not make it OK. In Bush case, I thought he put hand around her for the photo and made sure his hand rested on her buttocks. slightly different, but resting hand vs firm grab by hand = degree of offense. It is entirely possible (and maybe probable) that Daddy Bush made sure he stayed just on the safe side of "my hand is only resting there" vs a firm grab of the buttocks. --I'll be willing to bet Bush has had his last photo op with grabbing anyone's buttocks. He wasn't in the wheelchair when I was carrying him on my back down the stairs. I even went back up the stairs and got the wheelchair. I was 14 and have never told this to anyone, I'm 57 now. ETA: I knew he intentionally did it when he started to squeeze hard. And then the look he gave me when I was helping him back into the wheelchair. |
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Post by librarylady on Oct 26, 2017 20:48:51 GMT
I am sorry this happened to you, espically at such a young age. Yep, grabbing breasts was intentional and a certain violation, not as "ooops" hand landed wrong.
That guy used his wheelchair status to get in a grope/assault...probably more than once.
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janeliz
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Post by janeliz on Oct 27, 2017 22:05:07 GMT
Author says she was also groped by Bush, Sr.He certainly enjoys his David CopAFeel joke. Would I define these events assault? I don't know, honestly. I would never presume to tell these women how they should feel about it or what they should call it, though. I do know one thing---I would like a future for my daughters where there are no more men who think they have the right to put their fucking hands on other people anytime they damn well please.
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Post by lesserknownpea on Oct 27, 2017 23:40:44 GMT
I worked as a nurses aide in a care home as a teenager. It was very common for the elderly men to try to grope me, proposition me, or flash me. This was 40years ago, and I just good humoredly got in with my job.
However:
1) WHY when these men get old do their minds go to these behaviors? I believe at least to an extent, it’s because of the culture they’ve lived all their lives in. My own dad is vocal about viewing pretty young girls as objects, if he ever becomes senile I can see him becoming one of these men.
2) The suggestions that any of these women are coming forward to get attention incenses me—absolutely incenses me. Women not in the public eye do not even get a hearing. That is why it is up to the women who have a measure of recognition, however small, to speak out. And it takes courage, the backlash is harsh.
3) I think the #metoo campaign is going in exactly the right direction. It does not have to be only certain types of inappropriate actions that need to be discussed. Frankly, I think a lot of “ sweet old men” who do this groping know exactly what they’re doing, but know they will not be called on this crap, or it will just be excused. I know this because I have personally experienced it. Kind of like Trump saying when you’re famous they let you “grab em by the pussy”, these guys feel that being old or respected gives them the same privilege.
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Post by maryland on Oct 28, 2017 0:24:25 GMT
I know a godly pastor in his 90's in a nursing home that exposed himself to the nurses- definitely his dementia. My sisters worked in a nursing home in high school and had interesting experiences with some of the patients due to dementia (none that were sexual harrassment, though). My daughter volunteered at a nursing home her senior year of high school and still goes in during her college breaks. She has stories about some of the things the women talk about! If there is a man around, either an employee or resident, they can get very inappropriate and suggestive. But the nurses told her that that can sometimes happen as people get older. Some lose their "filter". Just sharing my daughter's experience. |
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Post by maryland on Oct 28, 2017 0:26:19 GMT
Could it be dementia and does dementia cause you to act out of character or in character but more blatant, if that makes sense? This was my first thought! I have dealt with some elderly people who did do this and they would have been horrified in the past that was what was coming in their future! Totally out of character!! When my grandmother was recovering from a stroke, the nurse asked her what type of music she liked. She told her she likes rap music! I didn't know my grandmother even knew what rap music was or had ever heard the term! My mom got a good laugh out of that! |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 28, 2017 0:29:46 GMT
1) WHY when these men get old do their minds go to these behaviors? I believe at least to an extent, it’s because of the culture they’ve lived all their lives in. My own dad is vocal about viewing pretty young girls as objects, if he ever becomes senile I can see him becoming one of these men. Not just men! See quote below. My daughter volunteered at a nursing home her senior year of high school and still goes in during her college breaks. She has stories about some of the things the women talk about! If there is a man around, either an employee or resident, they can get very inappropriate and suggestive. But the nurses told her that that can sometimes happen as people get older. Some lose their "filter". Just sharing my daughter's experience. Common, but men are worse I think. |
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Post by chances on Oct 28, 2017 1:24:31 GMT
you are making a straw man argument. no one said that these women should excuse or be silent about anything that has happened to them. This is incorrect, in this very thread numerous people have said she needs to get a life if she can't deal with this kind of thing and she needs to get over herself. The reason that is an incorrect statement is that it is not up to a woman to get over herself when a man touch with her inappropriately, it is up to the man not to touch her inappropriately in the first place. "Get over yourself/get over it" absolutely is silencing. ...so what if he accidentally touched her butt... ...it's because of the dementia... ...she waited too long/handled it wrong/misunderstood... ...it was a joke... (what he said in his apology)... I completely agree with this. It seems no matter what, the victim is always somehow to blame. She has no obligation to sit and be quiet. It was also interesting reading this thread from the beginning. Many people didn't even believe the original victim (typical). Even when it was admitted that he did and said these things, somehow she's still to blame for calling an assault an assault ?? That is disappointing because most perpetrators don't unequivocally admit the behavior. So if this is the reaction when there is no doubt about guilt, I can't imagine how hard it is for victims when there is no proof. |
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