zella
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Post by zella on Jun 9, 2018 0:26:12 GMT
I have a problem with the term "committed suicide." I never use it. I want to see it gone from our language. It carries a stigma and reflects the idea that suicide is against the law (still is in some places) or against some other standard (for some that would be against god's law). It's not right, it's not fair, and it needs to end.
I was talking about this on Facebook, and someone asked what language I'd rather see used.
I think the appropriate language is probably "died from mental illness," or "died from psychiatric illness." I'm also fundamentally okay with "killed himself." But we need to treat suicide deaths the same as we do deaths from any other malady. And I think that "died from mental illness" does that. No judgment, no unnecessary details, just the facts.
What do you think? What language do you think we should use?
And here's another thing: why with celebrities do we always hear reported the method of death? Is that necessary? I think it's intrusive and unneeded. Again, we don't expect that level of detail with other causes of death. My sister didn't actually die of cancer. She died of overwhelming infection secondary to a lack of immune system caused by chemotherapy. But you wouldn't see that reported in a newspaper. So why is it okay to give details of suicide?
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Jun 9, 2018 0:34:42 GMT
I agree that I don't like "committed suicide."
I'm comfortable with "died from suicide" or from complications of mental illness.
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Post by mom on Jun 9, 2018 0:36:56 GMT
I’m on my phone so I can’t quote correctly - but earlier you said you are always curious how someone killed themself. That is why it is included in newspapers - people are curious and especially when it’s unexpected.
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Post by laureljean on Jun 9, 2018 0:37:11 GMT
My dad died from suicide when I was a little girl, so I could be just a little sensitive on the subject.
I prefer just to say "died" or "passed away", but when discussing the cause of death, I guess I just say "died from suicide" or from depression.
I agree that the method of suicide is nobody's business. I can't think of any other cause of death where people want to know the details right before the individual passed. When my mom died from congestive heart failure, no one asked "Did she gasp for air?" "Was she bedridden, or did she just keel over?", etc. But plenty of people asked me (about my dad) "how did he do it?"
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azredhead
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Post by azredhead on Jun 9, 2018 0:37:21 GMT
I really don't like the 'killed himself' either as I have heard before some say it's intentional? We just never know the frame of mind.If the person was not their normal selves that drove them to take that action. I would just say unexpectedly end of life. It was ruled an accident with a hard fall. That's how I've worded it with my mom. We will never know what her intentions were that night. I think for many they want answers as to how they could have stopped it or what was done to help them. But ultimately it just stops for them and there's no way out. I do think that for that reason people especially family or close loved ones, do want to know how they died for closure - if there ever is closeure. celebrity or not. It's really tough and such a personal thing for anyone who has gon through it. laureljean I'm sorry for your loss at such a young age but I agree with you on that too! I don't like the like button for these things just that acknowledge it. ps it's nice to see you zella and all!  |
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Post by Linda on Jun 9, 2018 0:43:38 GMT
I agree - I prefer died from mental illness/depression or died by suicide to committed suicide or killed him/herself. I can't really put my finger on WHY I feel that way though.
I've been touched by suicide - my next door neighbour and classmate died when we were teens as did another friend/classmate shortly there after. And I've been touched by mental illness - myself, family members, and close friends. I'm glad to see it more in the open and with less of a stigma - hopefully that'll lead to more help and more survival - and more understanding and compassion for the surviving families as well - hard enough to lose a loved one without having societal blame added to survivors guilt.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Jun 9, 2018 0:44:03 GMT
Ok...so I'm trying to put my big girl panties on...be gentle on me...
But I don't have any problem with the wording committed suicide. And here's why, because I *do* believe they are doing something wrong. I'm not sure where that thought comes from in me except to say, when I feel like I'm struggling, *for me* the idea of feeling like I'd be doing something wrong is a deterrent. And I've seen enough suffering to know that the damage it causes to the loved ones, that is doing something wrong *to them*. And so I gently submit to you that I don't think there's a one size fits all approach.
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Post by christine58 on Jun 9, 2018 0:48:45 GMT
So are you saying that everyone who dies by suicide is mentally ill??? To me, mental illness is a lifelong issue and sometimes the person who kills themselves may have had one breaking point so to speak. We had someone here hang themselves because his GF broke up with him. Was he mentally ill?? Not in my eyes. Was he very despondent over a break up..yes. Just my two cents.
We had two teens hang themselves within two days of each other. The first because he was being bullied...the second because he was doing the bullying. I don't think either was mentally ill.
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Post by Delta Dawn on Jun 9, 2018 0:50:22 GMT
We don't tiptoe around the topic in my house at all. It's not out of the blue, it's smack dab center of the blue. There is no dancing around it, when I saw my dad this morning I asked him if he had heard about AB and he said yeah he committed suicide eh?
Zella I will be careful from now on, though.
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Post by busy on Jun 9, 2018 1:02:27 GMT
Death certificates are public record and will list the cause/manner of death. It’s going to be reported. There’s no way around it.
My father committed suicide. I personally do not have a problem with that language but I know others do. He definitely did not die of mental illness, but I don’t care to go into the explanation of why that language would be unsuitable in his case.
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Post by donna on Jun 9, 2018 1:04:24 GMT
The phrase committed suicide does not bother me ar all. When you get down to it the person who dies from suicide did actually do something. Ropes or scarves don't just wrap around a person's neck all by themselves. My sister went to the store, bought a hose and duct tape, drove into the woods at her college and ran the hose from her exhaust to the cab of her truck and then duct taped the gap around the window. She then started the truck and waited. Even if she was horribly depressed she committed to the plan to kill herself.
You can take sympathy too far and go the other direction. Suicide is not okay and we don't want to make it seem like it is. It has been 30 years and my family has never recovered from this.
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used2scrap
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Post by used2scrap on Jun 9, 2018 1:15:21 GMT
Unfortunately it is what it is, and softening the language doesn’t change reality.
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paget
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Jun 25, 2014 21:16:39 GMT
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Post by paget on Jun 9, 2018 1:21:42 GMT
Ok...so I'm trying to put my big girl panties on...be gentle on me... But I don't have any problem with the wording committed suicide. And here's why, because I *do* believe they are doing something wrong. I'm not sure where that thought comes from in me except to say, when I feel like I'm struggling, *for me* the idea of feeling like I'd be doing something wrong is a deterrent. And I've seen enough suffering to know that the damage it causes to the loved ones, that is doing something wrong *to them*. And so I gently submit to you that I don't think there's a one size fits all approach. I agree with this. I want to be sensitive to others, but I believe there isn’t anything wrong with the wording. If it’s not “wrong” why do we want people to get help and not do it? I do want to be clear that I have huge empathy and compassion for anyone affected by this. |
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Country Ham
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Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Jun 9, 2018 1:29:10 GMT
One of my dearest friends committed suicide and that's how his wife describes it. I run a mental health group home, we are both retired RNs and have no problems with the term. Commit means to perform the act and he committed the act of suicide by shooting himself in the head.
Not everyone who ends their life has a psychiatric illness. Some have long term depression, some react in the heat of a traumatic event in their lives.
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georgiapea
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Post by georgiapea on Jun 9, 2018 1:36:38 GMT
My MIL always said her father died from a nervous breakdown, which I took to mean his death was self induced. My Hubs has no other information but he was brought up to never ask questions.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that as death with dignity has become more accepted in cases of terminal illness, where our loved ones are in great physical pain, are we wrong to exclude emotional pain?
I've not been depressed so I have no clue, but from what I read here, the pain equals or surpasses physical pain. To me suffering is suffering. My DD and I agree that if we are dying we each will choose death with dignity over languishing.
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scrapngranny
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Post by scrapngranny on Jun 9, 2018 1:41:27 GMT
A person who takes their own life does commit an act, not necessarily an illegal act, just the act of taking their death into their own hands, at their own chosen time. The extent or lack there of, of mental illness is for the family to chose whether or not to address. The manner by which the person chooses to take their life is part of the death certificate. It is public record.
Saying someone died from cancer is simply the short way of saying died from compilations caused by cancer.
White washing suicide will to nothing to help those possibly considering suicide. It is an act that has many ramifications for everyone involved.
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Jun 9, 2018 1:46:06 GMT
Why does commit have to be a legal term? It is used in other settings.
Not all suicides are due to mental illness.
I think simply discussing mental illness, bringing it out from the shadows is helpful. XYZ, who suffered from depression for many years, committed suicide. Someone might die from mental illness because the voices told them to run across the street and they were then struck by a car. Would that be a suicide? That would be a tragic accident.
In my opinion, just like with cancer and other illnesses, being a bit more descriptive and accurate might go along way in general for the public at large.
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azredhead
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Post by azredhead on Jun 9, 2018 1:49:04 GMT
donna I agree with both. I agree with Georgiapea I think it's a mental break down too. Some families talk about it some don't. I think for me I'd rather think that's what she did have. I don't want people to think she was a bad person if she did decide to end it .. the judging it all. Maybe I haven't really come to terms with it yet and it's barely been not two years yet. I can talk about it and such to a certain extent and my brother is still furiously angry at me for things oout of my hands, everyone's just looking for answers that aren't there. if it's cancer or an illnesss you still say 'they died unexpectdely. She struggled with a lot of health issues. I think that played in some factors a lot of doctors told her it was in her head, when her kidneys were in bad shape.
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Post by disneypal on Jun 9, 2018 1:51:03 GMT
Personally, I wouldn't necessarily agree that dying from suicide is the same of dying from a mental illness. People with mental illness could die from other means besides purposely killing themselves (example: they may think their food is poison so they starve to death, they may think someone is chasing them so they accidentally run in front of a car, etc). While their condition did lead to their deaths, they didn’t knowingly take measures to end their life. Also, while I believe the majority of suicides are due to mental illness, all are not. For instance, a criminal that would rather shoot himself than be taken into custody. To me, I think it is a clearer term to understand when you hear that someone died by suicide. To me, suicide is a description of how a person died - causing death of self. Just like homicide describes causing death of another. This is just my personal point of view. I had a dear friend’s son lose his battle with depression and he ended his life. Recently, my Godson’s friend took his life just 2 weeks before his high school graduation. My heart goes out to anyone who has lost someone as a result of suicide. It is so heartbreaking that someone gets to a point in their life when they believe that is the only escape from their pain.  |
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Post by AussieMeg on Jun 9, 2018 1:56:49 GMT
I first became aware of the problem that some people have with the term "committed suicide" earlier this year after eleezybeth posted about it a couple of times. She mentioned that "died by suicide" had been a language recommendation for years. That was the first time I'd heard about it. After that discussion I asked my daughter (who lost a friend to suicide a couple of years ago) about it and she confirmed what Eleezybeth said. Ever since that thread I have been very conscious about my language around this topic. Especially as a new colleague recently lost a family member to suicide. Just this morning I finished reading a book written my DSO Aunt, whose husband died by suicide. This is an excerpt of what she wrote: Maybe it would be helpful to find out the origin of the phrase "committed suicide". It probably relates to the time when it was a crime. Committing suicide probably reflected religious and moral objections.... (it) is probably just a hangover from the past that was reinforced in the wording and language in the amendment to the law.
She also talked about people asking her how he did it, as you mentioned in your post laureljean. I just can't imagine being so insensitive as to ask someone that question! DSO's Aunt wrote: In terms of their nosy question about how and why (he) did it, just be honest if you want to. Otherwise it's okay to say you feel vulnerable talking about it and do not tell them....... 'Depression' and 'a gun' might stop the why questions, but it is unlikely to stop the whispers. |
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eleezybeth
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Jun 28, 2014 20:42:01 GMT
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Post by eleezybeth on Jun 9, 2018 1:58:04 GMT
Language is important and has been important to helping people help themselves. People commit crimes and commit sins. If someone is contemplating taking their own life and are tied up in the mindset that how they are feeling is illegal (i.e. a crime) or is a sin (i.e. going to hell). One is less likely to seek help when they know that they are going to be committing such an offense. When is the last time you sat down to talk about or call a hotline to talk about sins and breaking the law? We do not have help seeking language and then we wonder why people are resistant to seeking help? It doesn't make sense. The language is NOT about the loss survivors, it is about those who are trying to survive. I've said this a few times on this board and last time well... I was accused of not saying it with appropriate prose. Hopefully this time, in the wake of two high profile death by suicides, our country can discuss every big thing and EVERY little thing we can do to help people seek help. I recommend, if you want to know more, that you read how the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention asks journalists to talk about suicide. AFSP |
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Post by AussieMeg on Jun 9, 2018 2:05:06 GMT
I've said this a few times on this board and last time well... I was accused of not saying it with appropriate prose. I think the problem with your previous posts is that people saw it as an ill-timed handslap. It would have been better to have started a separate thread like this one. But you will be happy to know that I took on board what you said (as I mentioned in my post just above yours on this thread  ). |
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eleezybeth
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Jun 28, 2014 20:42:01 GMT
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Post by eleezybeth on Jun 9, 2018 2:06:50 GMT
Why does commit have to be a legal term? It is used in other settings. Not all suicides are due to mental illness. I think simply discussing mental illness, bringing it out from the shadows is helpful. XYZ, who suffered from depression for many years, committed suicide. Someone might die from mental illness because the voices told them to run across the street and they were then struck by a car. Would that be a suicide? That would be a tragic accident. In my opinion, just like with cancer and other illnesses, being a bit more descriptive and accurate might go along way in general for the public at large. As a medical provider, can I encourage you to read the language the CDC recommends to describe self-directed violence? It is important - but from the medical world, it is that much more important to use appropriate language. For one thing, we have to be speaking the same language so we can create the same data to fight the problem. www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/Self-Directed-Violence-a.pdf You'll find that it is where you would find out exactly the language needed to describe your example; Non-suicidal self-directed violence - Behavior that is self-directed and deliberately results in injury or the potential for injury to oneself. Understanding what is implicit and explicit suicidal intent is also there. |
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Post by bc2ca on Jun 9, 2018 2:13:37 GMT
Our 16 year old neighbor killed himself about 18 months ago. I was with his mom the whole night as we waited for a storm to break and daylight to start the search again. I was with her when his body was found and still there when the coroner came in after leaving the scene. When the coroner said there would be an autopsy as it is standard in all suicides, mom completely fell apart all over again.
The coroner was the first person to actually say "suicide". Using a term like "killed himself" leaves an ambiguity. Maybe it was accidental, not intentional?
I would not be comfortable saying he died from mental illness.
Details of deaths are rarely in obituaries IME. It a death makes the news, celebrity or every day Joe, we do get more details as to whether it was a murder, car accident, suicide, or illness.
My 89 year old dad reads the obituaries daily and is very annoyed that cause of death isn't included. If he spots someone he knows, he notifies my sisters and I so we can troll our network of friends for more details.
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eleezybeth
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Post by eleezybeth on Jun 9, 2018 2:15:00 GMT
I've said this a few times on this board and last time well... I was accused of not saying it with appropriate prose. I think the problem with your previous posts is that people saw it as an ill-timed handslap. It would have been better to have started a separate thread like this one. But you will be happy to know that I took on board what you said (as I mentioned in my post just above yours on this thread ). Looks like we were posting at the same time. I am SO very happy to hear that someone heard, had a discussion with somebody they loved and are willing to change. Bravo!!! Thanks for sticking with the point! A truly griping and raw account of suicide and how words also impact survivors is No Time to Say Goodbye by Carla Fine. It's so tragic, honest and raw. |
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Jun 9, 2018 2:21:16 GMT
I was not speaking medically, but did take a look at the pdf. I am familiar with the terms in the flow chart, but I also deal strictly with live patients. Even when I see a patient who is suicidal for a gynecological consult for an admitted patient to one of our mental health facilities or units or when I see someone for pregnancy clearance prior to inpatient admission, they are either experiencing "suicidal ideation" or have "attempted suicide."
We often put connotations on words that are not accurate. In my field, the term abortion is a pregnancy loss. It can be an elective or induced abortion, a spontaneous abortion, a missed abortion, an incomplete abortion or a threatened abortion. Yet, the term in the lay world has come to only mean an elective pregnancy termination. That's why I have switched to using the term elective termination of pregnancy. People can become quite offended to even see the term "spontaneous abortion" on a medical chart when there is nothing offensive about it at all.
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Post by chaosisapony on Jun 9, 2018 2:21:55 GMT
I don't particularly understand why this has become a "thing" recently. Perhaps because to me the term "committed" doesn't have an inherently negative connotation. I just hear it as a word to describe that someone took an action.
It was only in the last post on this subject that I even became aware that the phrase is not liked by some. Since then, I have tried to pay more attention to my words. While I don't get it, I'm certainly not going to intentionally say something that may make a person struggling with this in any capacity feel worse.
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zella
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Post by zella on Jun 9, 2018 2:25:43 GMT
I’m on my phone so I can’t quote correctly - but earlier you said you are always curious how someone killed themself. That is why it is included in newspapers - people are curious and especially when it’s unexpected. Yes, but I don't think sating that curiosity is the right thing to do when it's a suicide. |
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NoWomanNoCry
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Post by NoWomanNoCry on Jun 9, 2018 2:29:28 GMT
I think no matter what you (general you) can't please everyone and you will find some who have issues with no matter what term you use so I know it should be a personal preference for whoever is talking about it.
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Post by canadianscrappergirl on Jun 9, 2018 2:35:04 GMT
I don't have a problem with the language but the public's curiosity on how one does it does bother me.
I think what bothered me more today was as we watched a story on AB my husband said well he will burn in hell now, I was shocked at what he said.
I said you truly believe that he said yes I do I said well I feel sad for you i think when a person reaches that low I don't think they are punished. I got teary eyed thinking gosh if I ever felt that low I don't think my husband would be one to reach out to.
I am a Christian but I guess I never thought suicide equals Hell.
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