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Post by Merge on May 21, 2019 19:51:50 GMT
The further I remove myself from organized religion, the more I see the absolute self-centeredness behind statements like this, cloaked in the packaging of religion. It is a horrible thing to believe, never mind say. Having been enveloped in a restrictive religious environment, in my past, I shudder to think about the times that I said similar hurtful things ... that mindset is engraved in some religious groups. That they are more superior, in every way, because they have God "on their side". I agree with you. I was raised in a non-restrictive religious environment. No one was considered superior to another. I was taught it was my choice whether or not to be on God's side, not so much that God was on my side. That's too vain-glorious. Because of this, I hear or see the same phrases completely differently than many of y'all. I don't make the same assumptions that y'all seem to make. I'm much more inclined to allow people to express things the best way that they know how and try to listen to what they are really trying to say without judgment. One thing that I find troubling is just how is someone to express their joy, their gratitude, their own selfish happiness that their child was spared without pissing everybody else off? Because believe you me, that's an ingrained human emotion that needs to be expressed somehow. Totally willing to stipulate that a woman who is grateful her child was spared, and who is grieving what happened overall, is not to be personally judged for whatever offhand comment she makes. Speaking hypothetically, I think it's OK and perhaps preferable in that position to say that you're so grateful your child was spared, that you don't claim to understand why it happened but you're grateful anyway. But there is a strong belief among some Christians down here, as you know, that "good" people are "blessed" and "bad" ones are not, so that's the context I'm using here.
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Post by Linda on May 21, 2019 19:53:51 GMT
Comments like that are one of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to Christianity, and honestly it makes me question religion even more. I often hear people credit prayer and God for "saving" or "blessing" they or their family member. So, if someone does die, does that mean that they didn't pray hard enough? Or that God didn't care enough about them? And, one thing that annoys me is when people paint all Christianity with the same brush. Don't by annoyed at all of Christianity because of the beliefs of *some* Christians. This type of Christianity that's expressed by this sentiment (as well as others) is not anything that my particular church, or much of my denomination, believes. So you really should do some more research, if you care to find out differences I mean. Of course it is much easier just to brush it all off, and of course that is your prerogative... That I agree with - Christianity has so very many denominations and beliefs under the wide umbrella of 'follower of Christ'....and to say that any one thing is a Christian belief is very difficult because some Christians may believe it, others have a very different interpretation. Personally I struggle with the whole idea of demanding from God -whether it be to be saved or healed or to be blessed with this or that or the other. I do pray for people and their prayer intentions but not with the expectation that God will respond with the exact response hoped for, more with the hope that God will give them strength and guidence for whatever path lies ahead for them.
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Post by leftturnonly on May 21, 2019 20:24:34 GMT
I'm agnostic, and often don't really understand people's faith. I recently attended a funeral for a young person and was utterly dumbstruck by his father. He had a deep, deep faith and somehow was able to reconcile the loss of his only son within his faith and truly felt comfort from his religion. I don't understand it - and frankly haven't felt it when dealing with my own tragedy. I am a person of faith. I have found great comfort and peace in my faith, especially during times of tragedy. I'm not a stranger to great loss; I would not be alive today if it were not for my faith. No, and as I said - if this sentiment was said out loud to me by a grieving person I would say nothing. I know very well how grief affects people, and I'm not about to make someone feel worse. I think my issue is more with the worldview/religious view that makes this way of thinking such a common one. I get irritated with people's need to find meaning where there was none, which seems to me to perpetuate the line of thinking that one was "saved" or "blessed" while another was not. Totally willing to stipulate that a woman who is grateful her child was spared, and who is grieving what happened overall, is not to be personally judged for whatever offhand comment she makes. Speaking hypothetically, I think it's OK and perhaps preferable in that position to say that you're so grateful your child was spared, that you don't claim to understand why it happened but you're grateful anyway.But there is a strong belief among some Christians down here, as you know, that "good" people are "blessed" and "bad" ones are not, so that's the context I'm using here. I bolded your words because I think that they are quite beautiful. This is actually more in line with what I have been taught to think. There are Christians who believe that they are special, but there are also many Christians, even down here in the deep south, who do not. They, like me, believe that we are all unworthy without grace. I don't understand the very concept that good people are blessed and bad people are not. That's not what I've been taught. That's not the reality of the lives of the Christians I know. That is not the truth of my own life. I reject the very sentiment, and I can't think of a single person I know who even believes it.
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Post by Butterfly Momma on May 21, 2019 20:29:33 GMT
I agree with you. I was raised in a non-restrictive religious environment. No one was considered superior to another. I was taught it was my choice whether or not to be on God's side, not so much that God was on my side. That's too vain-glorious. Because of this, I hear or see the same phrases completely differently than many of y'all. I don't make the same assumptions that y'all seem to make. I'm much more inclined to allow people to express things the best way that they know how and try to listen to what they are really trying to say without judgment. One thing that I find troubling is just how is someone to express their joy, their gratitude, their own selfish happiness that their child was spared without pissing everybody else off? Because believe you me, that's an ingrained human emotion that needs to be expressed somehow. Totally willing to stipulate that a woman who is grateful her child was spared, and who is grieving what happened overall, is not to be personally judged for whatever offhand comment she makes. Speaking hypothetically, I think it's OK and perhaps preferable in that position to say that you're so grateful your child was spared, that you don't claim to understand why it happened but you're grateful anyway. But there is a strong belief among some Christians down here, as you know, that "good" people are "blessed" and "bad" ones are not, so that's the context I'm using here. I would like to add that I do not feel any judgment toward the mother in this story. Nor would I ever. My frustration, that I voiced in my first comment, is at that type of statement when someone who is not in the throes of grief says it. Like God wanted another angel, so that's why your baby died. Or you are so blessed that <<whatever bad thing didn't happen to you or yours>>. I think that we all say things in desperate situations that maybe we would have worded differently in another time. I strongly feel that every person who has survived something horrific has every right to be happy / grateful / joyous. Absolutely.
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Deleted
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May 17, 2024 11:59:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 20:37:55 GMT
I HATE comments like that.
Thoughtless, careless and adding additional hurt onto parents whose feelings god didn't take into account, I guess.
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janeliz
Drama Llama
I'm the Wiz and nobody beats me.
Posts: 5,633
Jun 26, 2014 14:35:07 GMT
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Post by janeliz on May 21, 2019 20:38:38 GMT
I don’t like the sentiment at all. I understand that people in that position are coming from this crazy place of extreme shock and gratefulness that a loved one has survived, but I immediately think of all the people who weren’t “chosen”.
I’m a church going Presbyterian, but I really chafe at the idea that God is up there choosing who lives or dies or who is affluent and successful, etc.
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Deleted
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May 17, 2024 11:59:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 20:39:48 GMT
That sure was nice of the Lord. Too bad he didn't see fit to save all of them.
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PrettyInPeank
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,691
Jun 25, 2014 21:31:58 GMT
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Post by PrettyInPeank on May 21, 2019 20:42:04 GMT
It is just as horrific as the cartoon that goes around after ever school shooting. Oh lord, why didn’t you stop this? Because I am not allowed in there. Exactly. Then why the church bombing over Easter?
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peabay
Prolific Pea
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Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on May 21, 2019 20:42:07 GMT
I agree. References like that always rub me the wrong way. When athletes or actors say it after winning something I'm always like "really? God wanted you to win a Grammy?" It never sits well with me.
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PrettyInPeank
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 25, 2014 21:31:58 GMT
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Post by PrettyInPeank on May 21, 2019 20:52:39 GMT
I'm Christian. That phrase is offensive. I do not believe in mainstream America's form of Christianity. For starters I'm a democrat. I think the bible isn't the perfect "word of God." It was written by imperfect men. I don't think God blesses me differently than others, but I do believe in prayer for strength and understanding to get through trials.
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Post by leftturnonly on May 21, 2019 20:53:17 GMT
I agree. References like that always rub me the wrong way. When athletes or actors say it after winning something I'm always like "really? God wanted you to win a Grammy?" It never sits well with me. IDK. I appreciate that we are allowed to think and freely say such ideas out loud. Whenever I see or hear someone do that, I figure that there's more behind the sentiment than what is obvious. I think some do it because it's reflexive or they feel it's expected, while I think others may have faced some very difficult struggles that they had to get through and they are expressing sincere gratitude. Either way, it doesn't matter to me.
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Post by pierkiss on May 21, 2019 20:55:37 GMT
I hate statements like this. It puts the haves up on a pedestal, and the have nots are left cold in the mud below. Why did god not choose to save all the other kids too?
I freely admit I have a problem with this aspect of religion.
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The Great Carpezio
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Something profound goes here.
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Jun 25, 2014 21:50:33 GMT
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Post by The Great Carpezio on May 21, 2019 20:55:39 GMT
I think one can be annoyed by a comment and still be understanding of the place the comment came from. I can be annoyed by "needed an angel in heaven" and "he is in a better place" type comments, but I also realize that some people have very limited word views and STILL, in 2019, don't realize that those comments can be hurtful or at least are tone deaf. In their minds, it comes from a place of love/compassion or at least as a trite way to try and make things better,
Now, once you know these comments are hurtful to people and you keep using them without care or consideration, then you have an agenda and should be looked at selfish and unkind.
I also think these kinds of statements said off the cuff right after a tragedy are a lot more acceptable than a year later when you have time to think about what you say and how you present your words and SEE a year's worth of grief and pain of the other parents. You should have time, in a year, to think beyond your own happiness and your own world view to perhaps choose your words more carefully.
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Deleted
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May 17, 2024 11:59:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 20:58:29 GMT
I think one can be annoyed by a comment and still be understanding of the place the comment came from. I can be annoyed by "needed an angel in heaven" and "he is in a better place" type comments, but I also realize that some people have very limited word views and STILL, in 2019, don't realize that those comments can be hurtful or at least are tone deaf. In their minds, it comes from a place of love/compassion or at least as a trite way to try and make things better, Now, once you know these comments are hurtful to people and you keep using them without care or consideration, then you have an agenda and should be looked at selfish and unkind. I also think these kinds of statements said off the cuff right after a tragedy are a lot more acceptable than a year later when you have time to think about what you say and how you present your words and SEE a year's worth of grief and pain of the other parents. You should have time, in a year, to think beyond your own happiness and your own world view to perhaps choose your words more carefully.Yeah. That. Even if someone said this in the moment (which is still stupid) it's much more cruel to say it one year out. Just selfish and careless to those whose kids didn't need to get saved, cuz, I guess, they weren't going to do anything amazing w/their lives.
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The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
Posts: 2,930
Jun 25, 2014 21:50:33 GMT
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Post by The Great Carpezio on May 21, 2019 20:58:43 GMT
I agree. References like that always rub me the wrong way. When athletes or actors say it after winning something I'm always like "really? God wanted you to win a Grammy?" It never sits well with me. IDK. I appreciate that we are allowed to think and freely say such ideas out loud. Whenever I see or hear someone do that, I figure that there's more behind the sentiment than what is obvious. I think some do it because it's reflexive or they feel it's expected, while I think others may have faced some very difficult struggles that they had to get through and they are expressing sincere gratitude. Either way, it doesn't matter to me. I think thoughtful people will usually expand a bit on those types of comments (like thanking God for strength to carry on type of thing). Otherwise, it often comes across, to me, as superstitious. Better thank God or I will lose next time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 20:59:22 GMT
"Ten people lost their lives on May 18, 2018. Many more were injured, including Sarah Salazar. The teenager suffered a gunshot wound to her shoulder. She is still recovering emotionally and physically from the horrific incident. Her mother, Sonia Lopez, told ABC13 Eyewitness News that by God's grace, she survived the shooting. "She told Him that she wasn't scared to die. The Lord chose to save her. I think it's just a miracle," said Lopez. "Sarah was never scared to go back to school. She understands that a shooting can happen anywhere." abc13.com/santa-fe-survivors-mom-the-lord-chose-to-save-her/5309184/
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Post by Zee on May 21, 2019 21:00:07 GMT
That sure was nice of the Lord. Too bad he didn't see fit to save all of them. No shit I think you'd be familiar enough with me by now that you might recognize when I'm not serious, but maybe I'm expecting too much.
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Post by peano on May 21, 2019 21:00:21 GMT
God needed another angel—blech!
We're so blessed—sanctimonious and superior. I prefer “I’m so grateful...”
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scrapngranny
Pearl Clutcher
Only slightly senile
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Jun 25, 2014 23:21:30 GMT
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Post by scrapngranny on May 21, 2019 21:03:56 GMT
What you say amongst your family and close friends is one thing, what you say to the public is another thing.
It would cut me to the core if my child had been one of those who died.
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Post by papersilly on May 21, 2019 21:08:19 GMT
i don't like it when people say stuff like that. that implies he chose to let someone else die. like he picks and choses who lives and dies. last time i check, a ton of killers and rapists are still roaming around while perfectly innocent people are dying of cancer, in car accidents, etc.
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Post by leftturnonly on May 21, 2019 21:23:32 GMT
I think thoughtful people will usually expand a bit on those types of comments ( like thanking God for strength to carry on type of thing). Otherwise, it often comes across, to me, as superstitious. Better thank God or I will lose next time. Absolutely, some come across as reflexive or superstitious. But, again, I try not to assume. There's rarely time enough to expand. Carol Burnett tugged her ear. Other people make a gesture or thank God. It's possible to be both reflexive and deeply meaningful. I really like how you spelled out the part I've bolded, however, I'm sure that this will come across as offensive too. After all, aren't you then thanking God for giving you strength and maybe not someone else, or not as much strength to someone else? What's the difference with saying that and saying that you've been blessed? If it weren't for this board, I never would have believed that people could take such heartfelt, innocent ideals and twist them to mean something as offensive as they do. Her mother, Sonia Lopez, told ABC13 Eyewitness News that by God's grace, she survived the shooting. The horror! Actually, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that statement. One can't live an entire life trying to stay a step ahead of people intent on reading into everything that which isn't there. She didn't say "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo, my kid lived and your kids didn't. God loves her more.," yet that's the way some of y'all seem to want to take it.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on May 21, 2019 21:31:31 GMT
Comments like that are one of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to Christianity, and honestly it makes me question religion even more. I often hear people credit prayer and God for "saving" or "blessing" they or their family member. So, if someone does die, does that mean that they didn't pray hard enough? Or that God didn't care enough about them? And, one thing that annoys me is when people paint all Christianity with the same brush. Don't by annoyed at all of Christianity because of the beliefs of *some* Christians. This type of Christianity that's expressed by this sentiment (as well as others) is not anything that my particular church, or much of my denomination, believes. So you really should do some more research, if you care to find out differences I mean. Of course it is much easier just to brush it all off, and of course that is your prerogative... Did I say that ALL Christians do this? Maybe people of other religions say similar things, but the people that I have heard say it are Christians, of various denominations. I would love if someone could explain what they mean when they say things like this. Do they really think that their prayer persuaded God to save them? How do they explain it when God doesn't save someone? Those are the questions I have, as stated in my post. You could answer them instead of getting offended.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 21:31:47 GMT
Too bad he didn't see fit to save all of them. No shit I think you'd be familiar enough with me by now that you might recognize when I'm not serious, but maybe I'm expecting too much. I guess you can't tell when I'm agreeing w/you.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on May 21, 2019 21:38:37 GMT
I think thoughtful people will usually expand a bit on those types of comments ( like thanking God for strength to carry on type of thing). Otherwise, it often comes across, to me, as superstitious. Better thank God or I will lose next time. Absolutely, some come across as reflexive or superstitious. But, again, I try not to assume. There's rarely time enough to expand. Carol Burnett tugged her ear. Other people make a gesture or thank God. It's possible to be both reflexive and deeply meaningful. I really like how you spelled out the part I've bolded, however, I'm sure that this will come across as offensive too. After all, aren't you then thanking God for giving you strength and maybe not someone else, or not as much strength to someone else? What's the difference with saying that and saying that you've been blessed? If it weren't for this board, I never would have believed that people could take such heartfelt, innocent ideals and twist them to mean something as offensive as they do. Her mother, Sonia Lopez, told ABC13 Eyewitness News that by God's grace, she survived the shooting. The horror! Actually, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that statement. One can't live an entire life trying to stay a step ahead of people intent on reading into everything that which isn't there. She didn't say "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo, my kid lived and your kids didn't. God loves her more.," yet that's the way some of y'all seem to want to take it. You seem really worked up here. I think you are finding outrage where none exists. No one is calling this mother a monster for being grateful her child survived. No one is calling her a monster for her religious beliefs, nor is anyone saying she should not be allowed her own belief system. One can feel great empathy for this woman while also questioning the (in my opinion) highly illogical idea that an omnipotent God is great for sparing a child from being shot, but that same supposedly omnipotent God is not responsible for creating or not stopping the shooting in the first place. We are having a general discussion here; no one is personally attacking a grieving mother, so I think all your hand wringing is for naught.
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scrappinmama
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,880
Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on May 21, 2019 21:45:58 GMT
Comments like that are one of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to Christianity, and honestly it makes me question religion even more. I often hear people credit prayer and God for "saving" or "blessing" they or their family member. So, if someone does die, does that mean that they didn't pray hard enough? Or that God didn't care enough about them? And, one thing that annoys me is when people paint all Christianity with the same brush. Don't by annoyed at all of Christianity because of the beliefs of *some* Christians. This type of Christianity that's expressed by this sentiment (as well as others) is not anything that my particular church, or much of my denomination, believes. So you really should do some more research, if you care to find out differences I mean. Of course it is much easier just to brush it all off, and of course that is your prerogative... I almost hesitate to call myself Christian because so many give us all a bad name. I am pro-choice, supporter of the LBGTQ community, and strongly feel that religion has no business being in politics. I'm as liberal as they come. I am not what a lot of people would consider "Christian". I feel that my beliefs align with the teachings of Jesus. I think a lot of Christians forget what Jesus taught us. Now to answer the ops question, I hate when people say that God saved their loved one. It's insulting to people who did not survive. Who do some survive and others don't? Modern medicine, timing, just sheer luck, and sometimes who knows? But what I do hope is that in tragedy, God can help me find a way to turn that around and make it better. I also believe that when these tragedies happen, God is as broken-hearted as we are. And he wants us to do what we can to make the world a better place. It's what drives me crazy about Christian climate change deniers. They believe that we don't have the ability to destroy the planet, that only God can do that. That's such b.s. God expects us to take care of the planet, and expects us to do something when something goes wrong. Whether it be climate change or gun laws. I'm not an expert on these things. it's just what I believe. I like to call myself a hippy Christian.
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Post by Merge on May 21, 2019 21:48:02 GMT
Absolutely, some come across as reflexive or superstitious. But, again, I try not to assume. There's rarely time enough to expand. Carol Burnett tugged her ear. Other people make a gesture or thank God. It's possible to be both reflexive and deeply meaningful. I really like how you spelled out the part I've bolded, however, I'm sure that this will come across as offensive too. After all, aren't you then thanking God for giving you strength and maybe not someone else, or not as much strength to someone else? What's the difference with saying that and saying that you've been blessed? If it weren't for this board, I never would have believed that people could take such heartfelt, innocent ideals and twist them to mean something as offensive as they do. The horror! Actually, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that statement. One can't live an entire life trying to stay a step ahead of people intent on reading into everything that which isn't there. She didn't say "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo, my kid lived and your kids didn't. God loves her more.," yet that's the way some of y'all seem to want to take it. You seem really worked up here. I think you are finding outrage where none exists. No one is calling this mother a monster for being grateful her child survived. No one is calling her a monster for her religious beliefs, nor is anyone saying she should not be allowed to her own belief system. One can feel great empathy for this woman while also questioning the (in my opinion) highly illogical thought that an omnipotent God is great for sparing a child from being shot, but that same supposedly omnipotent God is not responsible for creating or not stopping the shooting in the first place. We are having a general discussion here; no one is personally attacking a grieving mother, so I think all your hand wringing is for naught. Yeah, I guess we're not allowed to be annoyed and share that annoyance with an unrelated group of people in the internet. I'm not offended. I'm not going to start a crusade to end this kind of talk. I'm just here expressing my annoyance with the worldview that creates it.
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Post by busy on May 21, 2019 21:49:57 GMT
I think it's sick and twisted to say things like that, especially given the circumstances.
ETA: It's one thing to believe that privately. But when other kids were slaughtered and your child survived, to say that publicly is so profoundly insensitive and unkind and just plain gross IMO. There is no way around the implication that if god chose to save her daughter, god chose to not save the other kids who died.
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Post by monklady123 on May 21, 2019 21:50:01 GMT
And, one thing that annoys me is when people paint all Christianity with the same brush. Don't by annoyed at all of Christianity because of the beliefs of *some* Christians. This type of Christianity that's expressed by this sentiment (as well as others) is not anything that my particular church, or much of my denomination, believes. So you really should do some more research, if you care to find out differences I mean. Of course it is much easier just to brush it all off, and of course that is your prerogative... Did I say that ALL Christians do this? Maybe people of other religions say similar things, but the people that I have heard say it are Christians, of various denominations. I would love if someone could explain what they mean when they say things like this. Do they really think that their prayer persuaded God to save them? How do they explain it when God doesn't save someone? Those are the questions I have, as stated in my post. You could answer them instead of getting offended. Yes you kind of did when you said that this is a pet peeve about Christianity, and that it makes you question religion. Why not look to the other type of Christian, the ones who don't believe like this, and say that it makes you interested in religion. Or something. Rather than lumping everyone into "Christianity"? And, books have been written in response to those questions. Google "theodicy". I might have a go at it later, but at the moment I'm recovering from spending the day with 5th graders who are ready to be done with school so I have nothing left in me to take on people's beliefs about God.
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Post by Zee on May 21, 2019 21:55:59 GMT
No shit I think you'd be familiar enough with me by now that you might recognize when I'm not serious, but maybe I'm expecting too much. I guess you can't tell when I'm agreeing w/you. I admit, I can't. I felt attacked. Let's put that down to not enough sleep making me a little quick on the draw there. My sincere apologies. I'm on vacation starting tomorrow, I'll try and behave
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Post by Merge on May 21, 2019 21:57:05 GMT
I guess you can't tell when I'm agreeing w/you. I admit, I can't. I felt attacked. Let's put that down to not enough sleep making me a little quick on the draw there. My sincere apologies. I'm on vacation starting tomorrow, I'll try and behave You're two of my favorite snarkers here. Can't you get along?😂😂😂
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