maryannscraps
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,731
Aug 28, 2017 12:51:28 GMT
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Post by maryannscraps on Aug 28, 2019 10:36:23 GMT
So I'm reading the BBC news this morning, and it seems that Boris Johnson has asked for a suspension of Parliament while he introduces his new agenda. So what do you all think? An end run around democracy, or a normal reset to Parliament with no ulterior Brexit motives?
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lesley
Drama Llama
My best friend Turriff, desperately missed.
Posts: 7,177
Location: Scotland, Scotland, Scotland
Jul 6, 2014 21:50:44 GMT
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Post by lesley on Aug 28, 2019 11:05:05 GMT
Boris's middle name is Ulterior Motive.
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Post by gar on Aug 28, 2019 11:10:07 GMT
a normal reset to Parliament with no ulterior Brexit motives? It has come on the back of Corbyn's plan to try to pass a law preventing a no-deal exit so he will feel/insist that he had to do something I guess.
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maryannscraps
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,731
Aug 28, 2017 12:51:28 GMT
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Post by maryannscraps on Aug 28, 2019 11:16:03 GMT
Isn't passing/not passing laws their job? I'm not super familiar with the UK government, but my initial thought was of Mitch McConnell refusing to bring a vote on a Supreme Court justice here in the US. Abrogating responsibility.
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maryannscraps
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,731
Aug 28, 2017 12:51:28 GMT
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Post by maryannscraps on Aug 28, 2019 11:18:08 GMT
I also learned a new word today -- "prorogue". I hope I used it properly as a verb. I also saw it as "progrogating". Try saying it fast three times.
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Post by gar on Aug 28, 2019 11:18:38 GMT
Yes it is their job but it's all got a bit warped with this being solely about blocking or facilitating Brexit.
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Post by gar on Aug 28, 2019 11:19:42 GMT
I also learned a new word today -- "prorogue". I hope I used it properly as a verb. I also saw it as "progrogating". Try saying it fast three times. I had to look it up!
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,394
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Aug 28, 2019 11:53:39 GMT
I hadn't heard the word until a couple of weeks ago. Hopefully Boris will get the thrashing he needs. It will either be a major constitutional crisis or a damp squib. Time will tell.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 6, 2024 19:48:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 12:26:03 GMT
So I'm reading the BBC news this morning, and it seems that Boris Johnson has asked for a suspension of Parliament while he introduces his new agenda. So what do you all think? An end run around democracy, or a normal reset to Parliament with no ulterior Brexit motives? Basically what he's done is to move the official opening of parliament, which happens at each session to a later date. Usually the State Opening of Parliament is held at the beginning of the session when MP's go back to "work" after the summer recess. It includes the Queen's Speech setting out the agenda/legislation etc to be covered by the government, whoever is in office. Parliament doesn't actuallyl start it's work until after the Queens speech.The time until then will be a little longer than it normally is. There has been so much change in leadership of the government and with everything about Brexit since the last general Election that any agenda/legislation has been forgotten about and no one knows what their future intentions are about anything else. It seems that the reason he's done it is too get the agenda out there under his leadership. Whatever one might think of Boris, Jeremy Corbyn and many of the anti Brexit brigade are far more of a threat to democracy that Boris will ever be IMO. in so far as Corbyn's total agenda is to reverse a democratic election result that we should leave the EU. Hopefully it will not be with a no deal during the transition period but we can't ignore the vote of the majority who voted to leave........that really is an affront to democracy! They'll still have time to vote on the " deal" but won't have as long as it would have been if the state opening had been held at the usual time.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 6, 2024 19:48:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 16:03:38 GMT
So I'm reading the BBC news this morning, and it seems that Boris Johnson has asked for a suspension of Parliament while he introduces his new agenda. So what do you all think? An end run around democracy, or a normal reset to Parliament with no ulterior Brexit motives? Basically what he's done is to move the official opening of parliament, which happens at each session to a later date. Usually the State Opening of Parliament is held at the beginning of the session when MP's go back to "work" after the summer recess. It includes the Queen's Speech setting out the agenda/legislation etc to be covered by the government, whoever is in office. Parliament doesn't actuallyl start it's work until after the Queens speech.The time until then will be a little longer than it normally is. There has been so much change in leadership of the government and with everything about Brexit since the last general Election that any agenda/legislation has been forgotten about and no one knows what their future intentions are about anything else. It seems that the reason he's done it is too get the agenda out there under his leadership. Whatever one might think of Boris, Jeremy Corbyn and many of the anti Brexit brigade are far more of a threat to democracy that Boris will ever be IMO. in so far as Corbyn's total agenda is to reverse a democratic election result that we should leave the EU. Hopefully it will not be with a no deal during the transition period but we can't ignore the vote of the majority who voted to leave........that really is an affront to democracy! They'll still have time to vote on the " deal" but won't have as long as it would have been if the state opening had been held at the usual time. But didn't they vote for a "better deal" vs. a "no deal" situation? Do you think they would have voted for this if they knew it was going to be a no-deal bust-out? I don't.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 6, 2024 19:48:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 17:27:45 GMT
Basically what he's done is to move the official opening of parliament, which happens at each session to a later date. Usually the State Opening of Parliament is held at the beginning of the session when MP's go back to "work" after the summer recess. It includes the Queen's Speech setting out the agenda/legislation etc to be covered by the government, whoever is in office. Parliament doesn't actuallyl start it's work until after the Queens speech.The time until then will be a little longer than it normally is. There has been so much change in leadership of the government and with everything about Brexit since the last general Election that any agenda/legislation has been forgotten about and no one knows what their future intentions are about anything else. It seems that the reason he's done it is too get the agenda out there under his leadership. Whatever one might think of Boris, Jeremy Corbyn and many of the anti Brexit brigade are far more of a threat to democracy that Boris will ever be IMO. in so far as Corbyn's total agenda is to reverse a democratic election result that we should leave the EU. Hopefully it will not be with a no deal during the transition period but we can't ignore the vote of the majority who voted to leave........that really is an affront to democracy! They'll still have time to vote on the " deal" but won't have as long as it would have been if the state opening had been held at the usual time. But didn't they vote for a "better deal" vs. a "no deal" situation? Do you think they would have voted for this if they knew it was going to be a no-deal bust-out? I don't. The question being voted for by the public was initially put forward as "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?"The response options to this question were ‘yes’ or ‘no’. The Electoral Commission, an independent body, which oversees UK elections felt it was necessary to change the question to make it clearer than a yes or no answer.So they changed the ballot paper to read:- "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?” Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Unionand you had to tick one of the two boxes. This is their statement for the change: The deal that is always quoted when reporting on Brexit is for the transitional period that it will take for everything to be sorted and transferred to UK legislation, such as laws that we have adapted, trade deals that we belong to as part of the collective trade deals that the EU broker on behalf of the member countries, fishing rights around our waters etc etc. To ask voters to agree on everything listed in the deal that is on the table now that some MP's can't agree with, is 500+ pages long. Do you seriously think that it was expected of all voters to read all of that.I doubt every MP has read it in its entirety!It's pretty obvious some of them haven't, purely by what they are voicing an opinion on. Every household in Britain had a booklet setting out the key points of what it would mean to stay or leave.If some chose not to read that and do further research, that isn't an excuse to overturn a democratic vote.The " deal" isn't about what is going to happen after we finally leave which in fact can take another couple of years to transfer everything back under our control. There is a lot of misconception in the reporting on what the " deal" means. I personally haven't met or know anyone that would change their mind on their initial vote.So I'm doubtful that the outcome would be any different Some have commented I wish they would just get on with it and be done, which to be fair is what Boris Johnson has said he would do. We can't keep going back and forth as if time is immemorial. That wasn't the result of the vote. It's a waste of time to wait for a " better deal" if the EU consistently tells us that there won't be one. They've been doing that for a over a year How long do we wait? You can't get blood out of a stone. Anyone who makes a deal on anything will either agree to the deal or drop out. They don't carry on and on and on hoping that the other side( the EU) will change their mind.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 6, 2024 19:48:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 4:14:43 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49504526On Wednesday evening protesters gathered in Westminster chanting "stop the coup" and carrying anti-Brexit placards and EU flags. The demonstration - organised hours beforehand - started outside Parliament before spreading towards Downing Street.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 6, 2024 19:48:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 4:18:27 GMT
Government only works by consent of the governed. Hong Kong is teaching that old lesson again. I fear the UK may be next.
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Post by gar on Aug 29, 2019 6:36:38 GMT
I hope it doesn't escalate to that for sure, but it's very unsatisfactory. It feels wrong, like cheating - it may be technically do-able but it's not in the spirit of democracy. He's not averse to upsetting people and he's getting praise from some quarters. Now we have more possibility of a vote of no confidence in the government and a General Election.
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Post by gillyp on Aug 29, 2019 9:05:04 GMT
Could we make MORE of a pig’s ear of the whole debacle if we tried?
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 6, 2024 19:48:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 9:07:57 GMT
Government only works by consent of the governed. Hong Kong is teaching that old lesson again. I fear the UK may be next. Using the fact that " No one voted for Boris" is quite hypocritical really. Apart from the fact that choosing the leader of a party is down to the members of that particular party and always has been, and in turn will be Prime Minister if that party is the governing party. Exactly the same way as Gordon Brown came to be Prime Minister following Tony Blair's resignation.........strange that non of them protested then!! In fact Gordon Brown came to power with no opposition from his own party members either. No one stood against him at the time so there wasn't even a vote from the Labour Party members either.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 6, 2024 19:48:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 9:35:41 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49504526On Wednesday evening protesters gathered in Westminster chanting "stop the coup" and carrying anti-Brexit placards and EU flags. The demonstration - organised hours beforehand - started outside Parliament before spreading towards Downing Street. That alone shows how uneducated they are........what coup? No one has seized the power from an elected political party. The government in office now was democratically voted in. A change of leadership of that same government is in no way a " coup" Protesting about the results of an election that hasn't gone your ( general you ) way is undemocratic. What happens when we have a General Election.......will whoever lost then try to overthrow the results because it didn't go their way?
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Post by gar on Aug 29, 2019 11:12:25 GMT
I think it’s meant in a less literal way... more of a hi-jacking of the process
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Post by gillyp on Aug 29, 2019 11:36:35 GMT
I think it’s meant in a less literal way... more of a hi-jacking of the process That’s pretty much how I took it too.
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Post by gar on Aug 29, 2019 11:49:29 GMT
I think it’s meant in a less literal way... more of a hi-jacking of the process That’s pretty much how I took it too. Yes, I don’t think all those people are necessarily uneducated 🙂
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 6, 2024 19:48:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 12:38:27 GMT
That’s pretty much how I took it too. Yes, I don’t think all those people are necessarily uneducated 🙂 Well they are IMO if they are using the word " coup" they obviously don't know what it means! The only people I can see attempting a " coup" is they themselves. They interviewed someone on the radio earlier ( didn't catch who it was) and he was suggesting that Corbyn formed his own caretaker government........now that is a "coup"!!
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Post by gar on Aug 29, 2019 12:55:32 GMT
Yes, I don’t think all those people are necessarily uneducated 🙂 Well they are IMO if they are using the word " coup" they obviously don't know what it means! The only people I can see attempting a " coup" is they themselves. They interviewed someone on the radio earlier ( didn't catch who it was) and he was suggesting that Corbyn formed his own caretaker government........now that is a "coup"!! I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m sure that word was used intentionally 🙂
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cla
Shy Member
Posts: 13
Aug 29, 2019 12:53:16 GMT
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Post by cla on Aug 29, 2019 13:02:00 GMT
I think it's ridiculous and totally undemocratic of Boris Johnson. Although i voted remain, i understand that the referendum result was to leave but i think its disingenuous to suggest that a no deal Brexit was what anyone voted for. Our MPs were democratically elected to represent our country and by prologing parliament Boris has shown exactly how important he considers the public opinion. By suspending parliament until the 14th October he has effectively removed the possibility of Mps passing laws to block a no deal Brexit, allowing him to push through his agenda unchallenged. How is that anything other than undemocratic?? The Scottish conservative leader has resigned this morning, which really shows it all. I hope a vote of no confidence and a general election is called, so that the voices of the people can be heard again. How on earth anyone can claim Jeremy Cornyn (who is far from a remainer) is more of a threat to democracy than Boris Johnson is beyond me. I am very upset and angry about this. Boris has even been endorsed by Trump; I couldn't think of a worse endorsement!
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cla
Shy Member
Posts: 13
Aug 29, 2019 12:53:16 GMT
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Post by cla on Aug 29, 2019 13:30:55 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49504526On Wednesday evening protesters gathered in Westminster chanting "stop the coup" and carrying anti-Brexit placards and EU flags. The demonstration - organised hours beforehand - started outside Parliament before spreading towards Downing Street. That alone shows how uneducated they are........what coup? No one has seized the power from an elected political party. The government in office now was democratically voted in. A change of leadership of that same government is in no way a " coup" Protesting about the results of an election that hasn't gone your ( general you ) way is undemocratic. What happens when we have a General Election.......will whoever lost then try to overthrow the results because it didn't go their way? I dont see how Boris shutting down our democratically elected MPs and parliament because he doesn't like what the parliament is saying, is anything other than a coup. Boris is removing our the rights of people's voices to be heard and interrupting the passing of many vital pieces of legislation. For example the landmark domestic abuse bill will now likely not be passed. This is an outrage!!
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,977
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Aug 29, 2019 13:52:40 GMT
Can someone explain to me how a vote of no confidence will be held if he has prorogued Parliament? And what happens if a general election is called? Would that occur before Boris can effectuate a no deal exit? And my last question is if everyone despises BoJo and Corbyn so much, why are there no other alternatives? Is it because they both have enough support within their own parties to quash any potential challengers?
ETA: Oh! One last question - if he had to get permission from the Queen to take this action, could she have told him to go jump in the Thames or is this just another ceremonial responsibility over which she really has no discretion?
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,375
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Aug 29, 2019 14:09:01 GMT
Can someone explain to me how a vote of no confidence will be held if he has prorogued Parliament? And what happens if a general election is called? Would that occur before Boris can effectuate a no deal exit? And my last question is if everyone despises BoJo and Corbyn so much, why are there no other alternatives? Is it because they both have enough support within their own parties to quash any potential challengers? ETA: Oh! One last question - if he had to get permission from the Queen to take this action, could she have told him to go jump in the Thames or is this just another ceremonial responsibility over which she really has no discretion? Re your last two questions the answer is yes. It is a ceremonial role & saying no is highly unusual. That said, in BC the Lt Gov said no to an election when the premier in a minority gov't asked to go to the polls again. She didn't believe her when premier said nobody could form majority & thus gov't couldn't function. Non confidence vote would be as soon as parliament opens, right after throne speech. Stephen Harper did this once too. It (proroguihg parliament) is within the rules. yes, only paid members vote on party leaders in UK. Same in Canada.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Aug 29, 2019 14:25:09 GMT
Yes, I don’t think all those people are necessarily uneducated 🙂 Well they are IMO if they are using the word " coup" they obviously don't know what it means! The only people I can see attempting a " coup" is they themselves. They interviewed someone on the radio earlier ( didn't catch who it was) and he was suggesting that Corbyn formed his own caretaker government........now that is a "coup"!! That’s because you have a different interpretation of Boris’ action as opposed to others’. Your interpretation is it’s just business as usual, a procedural norm when a session of parliament is ended and a new one begins later, and just so he can set his agenda for a new session. Ostensibly, that is. You’re not recognizing that others see it plainly as a ploy to prevent parliament from stopping a no-deal Brexit. Boris’ premise for Brexit is to give the country and its parliament its sovereignty back. Contrary to that premise, he has wrested sovereignty away from parliament. They’re also saying that even though people voted for Brexit, no one voted for a no-deal Brexit that would cause chaos and severe economic repercussions to the country. That’s what the other side is seeing. Speaking as a foreigner only, I can’t get over the fact that the UK voted for a Brexit to begin with, and then went from arguing about soft vs hard Brexit to no-deal! It’s like visiting more harm upon oneself when already faced with intractable problems. That’s why the words “undemocratic,” and “coup” are being used. I’m not a Brit, but even I see a power grab. Having said all that, I, personally think there’s no stopping no-deal and a couple of weeks lost to debate isn’t going to make a difference. If three years’ worth of debates failed to coalesce parliament, what’s a couple of weeks going to achieve? No-confidence voting isn’t going to achieve anything because Boris won’t resign and he’ll call an election after Oct 31. Polls show he’ll likely gain a majority. Might as well just exit and get the pain over with.
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cla
Shy Member
Posts: 13
Aug 29, 2019 12:53:16 GMT
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Post by cla on Aug 29, 2019 14:40:28 GMT
Well they are IMO if they are using the word " coup" they obviously don't know what it means! The only people I can see attempting a " coup" is they themselves. They interviewed someone on the radio earlier ( didn't catch who it was) and he was suggesting that Corbyn formed his own caretaker government........now that is a "coup"!! That’s because you have a different interpretation of Boris’ action as opposed to others’. Your interpretation is it’s just business as usual, a procedural norm when a session of parliament is ended and a new one begins later, and just so he can set his agenda for a new session. Ostensibly, that is. You’re not recognizing that others see it plainly as a ploy to prevent parliament from stopping a no-deal Brexit. Boris’ premise for Brexit is to give the country and its parliament its sovereignty back. Contrary to that premise, he has wrested sovereignty away from parliament. They’re also saying that even though people voted for Brexit, no one voted for a no-deal Brexit that would cause chaos and severe economic repercussions to the country. That’s what the other side is seeing. Speaking as a foreigner only, I can’t get over the fact that the UK voted for a Brexit to begin with, and then went from arguing about soft vs hard Brexit to no-deal! It’s like visiting more harm upon oneself when already faced with intractable problems. That’s why the words “undemocratic,” and “coup” are being used. I’m not a Brit, but even I see a power grab. Having said all that, I, personally think there’s no stopping no-deal and a couple of weeks lost to debate isn’t going to make a difference. If three years’ worth of debates failed to coalesce parliament, what’s a couple of weeks going to achieve? No-confidence voting isn’t going to achieve anything because Boris won’t resign and he’ll call an election after Oct 31. Polls show he’ll likely gain a majority. Might as well just exit and get the pain over with. Polls showed that Theresa May was expected to win a majority by a landslide in 2017 and yet she ended up having to cobble together a coalition. Gaining so many seats in Scotland was the only way she even achieved that and with Ruth Davidson resigning it's unlikely to be the same result this time. Besides that it's the principal of the matter. If we allow such breaches of power to occur now because "it doesn't make a difference anyway" then that's setting a dangerous precedent for the future. Democracy must always be defended. The pain of Brexit certainly won't stop with a no deal, it may lead to food shortages, lack of vital medication and will almost certainly send the UK back into a recession. This is no longer a Brexit issue in my opinion, it's an issue of whether we want to live in a fair, democratic country or not.Boris Johnson himself wrote to his Mps recently saying he would not suspend parliament and yet here we are. Looks like the US isn't the only country with a lying, wannabe dictator in charge.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Aug 29, 2019 14:48:50 GMT
That’s because you have a different interpretation of Boris’ action as opposed to others’. Your interpretation is it’s just business as usual, a procedural norm when a session of parliament is ended and a new one begins later, and just so he can set his agenda for a new session. Ostensibly, that is. You’re not recognizing that others see it plainly as a ploy to prevent parliament from stopping a no-deal Brexit. Boris’ premise for Brexit is to give the country and its parliament its sovereignty back. Contrary to that premise, he has wrested sovereignty away from parliament. They’re also saying that even though people voted for Brexit, no one voted for a no-deal Brexit that would cause chaos and severe economic repercussions to the country. That’s what the other side is seeing. Speaking as a foreigner only, I can’t get over the fact that the UK voted for a Brexit to begin with, and then went from arguing about soft vs hard Brexit to no-deal! It’s like visiting more harm upon oneself when already faced with intractable problems. That’s why the words “undemocratic,” and “coup” are being used. I’m not a Brit, but even I see a power grab. Having said all that, I, personally think there’s no stopping no-deal and a couple of weeks lost to debate isn’t going to make a difference. If three years’ worth of debates failed to coalesce parliament, what’s a couple of weeks going to achieve? No-confidence voting isn’t going to achieve anything because Boris won’t resign and he’ll call an election after Oct 31. Polls show he’ll likely gain a majority. Might as well just exit and get the pain over with. Polls showed that Theresa May was expected to win a majority by a landslide in 2017 and yet she ended up having to cobble together a coalition. Gaining so many seats in Scotland was the only way she even achieved that and with Ruth Davidson resigning it's unlikely to be the same result this time. Besides that it's the principal of the matter. If we allow such breaches of power to occur now because "it doesn't make a difference anyway" then that's setting a dangerous precedent for the future. Democracy must always be defended. The pain of Brexit certainly won't stop with a no deal, it may lead to food shortages, lack of vital medication and will almost certainly send the UK back into a recession. This is no longer a Brexit issue in my opinion, it's an issue of whether we want to live in a fair, democratic country or not.Boris Johnson himself wrote to his Mps recently saying he would not suspend parliament and yet here we are. Looks like the US isn't the only country with a lying, wannabe dictator in charge. I hear you. But what can parliament do that will stop no-deal? Can they unify and pass legislation in an abbreviated time? My opinion is that May’s withdrawal agreement was the best that could be had under the circumstances, but for some unfathomable reason, parliament could not unify and spent three years arguing back and forth. At some point, the country via its politicians has to make a decision. Revoke Article 50 or go. How many more years will your populace argue about this? Like I said, I was aghast the UK even chose to exit, but it is what it is.
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Deleted
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May 6, 2024 19:48:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 15:03:57 GMT
That alone shows how uneducated they are........what coup? No one has seized the power from an elected political party. The government in office now was democratically voted in. A change of leadership of that same government is in no way a " coup" Protesting about the results of an election that hasn't gone your ( general you ) way is undemocratic. What happens when we have a General Election.......will whoever lost then try to overthrow the results because it didn't go their way? I dont see how Boris shutting down our democratically elected MPs and parliament because he doesn't like what the parliament is saying, is anything other than a coup. Boris is removing our the rights of people's voices to be heard and interrupting the passing of many vital pieces of legislation. For example the landmark domestic abuse bill will now likely not be passed. This is an outrage!! What do you think the anti Brexit people are doing then? Are they also not attempting to remove the voice of the people, all 17,401,472 of them? Over 12 and a half million more people wanted to leave. I find it equally disingenuous by the constant accusation that the leavers didn't know what they were voting for too.I didn't vote to" leave provided we got a deal" either. The bottom line is, it all needs to be sorted. We're now on our third date to leave. How many more times are we going to move that date? In the meantime it's taking up all the time that the government could be spending on getting other things done. It has to stop sometime, we can't go on like this. They ALL need to get their act together whichever side one is on, they're acting like children that can't get their own way, some more than others.
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