@olan

This whole thread makes me sick to my stomach. Im so sorry Olan that you have had to put up with this abuse, yes abuse because that is what it is.  You have educated many of us, and you need to make no apologies for taking us to task.  

Im sorry that there are people in the world (like @peano)  who feel the need to be abusive and call it an apology.

Thank you. I appreciate the support. Even one pea recognizing how much of a non-apology this was would have been enough. To have so many people point out the error in her ways makes me feel more hopeful than I have felt in awhile. 🙏

theconversation.com/amp/why-the-west-is-morally-bound-to-offer-reparations-for-slavery-153544

Incomplete quote

“The 20th anniversary of the UN World Conference on Racism, held in Durban, South Africa, in 2001, will be celebrated this August. There was much discussion at the conference about reparations to Africa for the trans-Atlantic slave trade, in which millions of Africans were captured to provide free labour in North and South America and the Caribbean for over four and a half centuries.

Unfortunately, the conference was overshadowed by the 9/11 attacks on the US several days after it ended. The question of whether reparations should be paid to the continent of Africa for the trans-Atlantic slave trade is still being debated.

It is unlikely that former Western slave-trading countries will engage in reparative measures in the near future. The turn toward authoritarianism, xenophobia and racism in Western democracies makes it unlikely that even well-intentioned governments will propose reparations to Africa.

But, despite these political changes in slave-trading nations, there remains a strong case for why the fight for reparations shouldn’t be abandoned.

Apology for the slave trade

A 2005 United Nations document discusses different aspects of reparations, including apologies for past harms, the right to know the truth, and financial compensation.

Over the past 15 years (following the 2005 UN report) there has been no progress on these issues, not even over the issuing of an apology.

At the 2001 conference a Dutch representative spoke of his government’s “deep remorse” for the slave trade and enslavement. In 2006, British Prime Minister Tony Blair issued a statement expressing “sorrow” for the slave trade, but not apologising.

None of these amounted to an apology. Nor has the US issued one. President Bill Clinton acknowledged the horrors of the slave trade in 1998 during a visit to Uganda. But he didn’t apologise. On a visit to Senegal in 2003, President George W. Bush said that the trans-Atlantic slave trade had been one of the greatest crimes in history. Again, there was no apology.”

Removed meme to save space. It said, "and there is this asshole. 

Good answer! I know no such thing as self responsibility.

@peano. melissa25 and people who think like them are the reason we are still where we are as a country fighting racist motherfuckers like Trump and Cruz and millions of others. People like them are the reason that I have no doubt that we are in for another civil war or another Jan 6th 2021.

Putting aside who made the recommendation and why it is problematic, Caste was one of the best books I read last year and I recommend it to everyone (yes, I am white - but I think it's an important book for white people to read). Isabel Wilkerson also did an excellent podcast on Throughline talking about the themes in the book. 

A double bind is if we are telling you not to read the book. It is not a double bind when we are telling you NOT to recommend a book.

Peano, I believe that you think you had good intentions in posting this. But I think your self assessment skills are sorely lacking. I really don't think you see how many different kinds of wrong this is.

I was unfamiliar with the history between you two ladies, apart from what Olan later described on this thread. So when I read your OP, I had no bias in favor of or against you or her and your relationship (or lack thereof) with each other. I had no lens coloring what I was reading. And when I read it, I was struck by the condescension. You apologize, but then you go on to explain what a double bind is, explain why what you're doing should be good enough, and call her to task on her own thoughts and feelings.

I wonder what the point of this thread was? If it was to make amends with Olan, you needed a whole lot more ownership and humility, and whole lot less talking and white-splaining. If it was to verbally process your own journey, you needed to do that with other white friends, and not call Olan out. If your plan was to announce that you're not going to engage her further, then doing so publicly was really only for dramatic effect. The only conclusion that I can come to is that you wanted the praise of other peas, which you initially got. If you want validation for something, fine, but don't disguise your request for it as an olive branch.

I get struggling through this journey. We all are and as you've said, we're all at different places on that journey.

However, Olan has told you, repeatedly, directly and sometimes even forcefully (there can be no misunderstanding!), that she does not trust you, that she does not want to be your Black educator, and that she does not want your brand of allyship. You need to respect that. If you want to be an ally, great. Do so with a person who welcomes your efforts, while simultaneously improving your understanding of what being an ally is. It's okay for Olan to say "I don't find you to be my ally" and in fact, "you have treated me with racism," and you have to accept that. Continuing to scream, "but I AM your ally" completely disregards her feelings and experience. Whatever you intend toward her, if positive allyship is your goal, you're clearly not communicating it in a way that is meaningful to her. You have to come to a place where you're okay with that. You have to allow her to keep her negative opinion of you if that is her wish. Continuing to insist that she change her opinion of you is a way in which you continue to try to exert power over her. To put it glibly, she's just not that into you. Whether she changes her opinion of you or welcomes your ally efforts is up to her and her alone.

We all like to think our motives matter, and can forgive and explain when we are unclear with our words. And motives do matter. But when another person is saying, "I don't care what you say your motives are, I don't welcome your efforts," and you continue to disrespect that request, we can no longer believe that you have the pure motives you say you do.

It sounds like you believe that your desire is to be an ally. Listen, learn, and practice your efforts with someone who welcomes them. Leave those who don't alone.

And Olan, I am meaning to speak to Peano, but not to speak for you. If I have done so, please forgive me. I was trying to summarize what has already been stated, but not do for you what you are doing for yourself. I hope that I only communicated summary repeat.

Why on earth would anyone ask that question, knowing that there's a better than 50 percent chance she would say "yes," if your intention was to provide a response that was nothing short of obnoxious and rude?  That's just baiting, and it's twisted.  

I haven't read more than the last few posts of this thread yet, but I went to my library's website to look up this book. Um.... 490 people on the waiting list for the ebook (50 copies), and 382 on the actual book (48 copies). I put my name on the list for the ebook (that list always moves faster) but I think it will be awhile even with that many copies. 

341 on the waiting list for the audiobook. hahaha  -- Personally though I don't think I'd be able to listen to a book like this... I have trouble keeping my attention on audiobooks so I can only listen to fluffy mysteries or Harry Potter (since I know these stories so well) or other books like that. lol at me... I start listening then suddenly realize my mind has wandered and I have no idea what the narrator has said.