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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Feb 22, 2021 13:23:54 GMT
I am successful and educated which is not much of the case with my extended family but I have always been the weird one. My extended family has never treated me differently. But my immediate family does treat me differently. I don't care, though. I spent way too many years trying to stuff my square peg self into a round hole. I embrace myself and if others can't handle that well, too damn bad. It's funny actually because I've found a lot of people outside my family really embrace my quirks. Whereas my immediate family is always trying to stuff me into some kind of box. I'm too emotional or I'm too vibrant, it's always something that my mom and my sister can find to criticize. Yes, this...exactly this feeling!
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Post by sawwhet on Feb 22, 2021 13:31:13 GMT
Just a little “factoid” I looked up where black sheep originated... “The term originated from the occasional black sheep which are born into a flock of white sheep. Black wool was considered commercially undesirable because it could not be dyed. In 18th and 19th century England, the black color of the sheep was seen as the mark of the devil.” And Biblically, the term is used in the Bible in the context of- “The 'black sheep' were actually a mark of integrity rather than disrepute.” “The 'Chinese whispers' of the early bible versions caused the original meaning to become lost and confused readers into the belief that the dark sheep were removed because they were worthless.” I posted something similar a few posts back. It has nothing to do with America, racism or slavery.
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Post by freecharlie on Feb 22, 2021 13:33:00 GMT
No, but can I say that I hate even the concept of black sheep? I don't like the term "black sheep" because it's yet another term where white = good and normal, and black = bad / odd one out. no. In a field around here if there is one black sheep in a pen of white sheep it means there is 100 total sheep in the pen. Black sheep are not as common as white sheep so they stand out. In this case, it is agricultural, not racism
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Post by freecharlie on Feb 22, 2021 13:33:41 GMT
I don't like the term "black sheep" because it's yet another term where white = good and normal, and black = bad / odd one out. This. No hand slap at all toward those who use this expression, but I can’t help but wonder how much work we all must do to consciously think of ways to eliminate the unspoken messages in our everyday lives. I grew up with step family that can only be called trailer or “white trash”. It sounds harsh, but if you knew them you’d know what I mean. But I made a decision years ago to stay away from that term because its foundation is pure racism. They, actually, proudly call themselves that. And yes, they’re very racist. I wouldn’t be surprised if the term black sheep predates American enslavement of Africans, but I still think it’s important to root out anything that gives the message : white =good, black =bad. it is agricultural in its origin black wool is hard to dye
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Post by sawwhet on Feb 22, 2021 13:36:15 GMT
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Feb 22, 2021 13:39:36 GMT
Just a little “factoid” I looked up where black sheep originated... “The term originated from the occasional black sheep which are born into a flock of white sheep. Black wool was considered commercially undesirable because it could not be dyed. In 18th and 19th century England, the black color of the sheep was seen as the mark of the devil.” And Biblically, the term is used in the Bible in the context of- “The 'black sheep' were actually a mark of integrity rather than disrepute.” “The 'Chinese whispers' of the early bible versions caused the original meaning to become lost and confused readers into the belief that the dark sheep were removed because they were worthless.” I posted something similar a few posts back. It has nothing to do with America, racism or slavery. You’d be surprised what is and isn’t anti-blackness no matter what you read about the origin the use means Black is bad and white isn’t. Any time we can remove that from our daily language and habits would be a move in the right direction if you ask me. I remember noting all the words that contained the world black and were negative while I was on punishment and being made to write sentences. Had to be about 9-11 years old at the time. Feelings about yourself are internalized in a way where you don’t usually consult an adult about it first. Just FYI for those of you who need an extra push to rethink your use of black sheep.
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Post by peabay on Feb 22, 2021 13:44:12 GMT
Regardless of its origins, it perpetuates the idea that white = good and black = bad. That's all people are trying to say. Sometimes the meanings of things change and we try to adapt so that our word choices don't contribute to ideas that can hurt others.
I've struggled with this myself: "but thug isn't racist" and "they/them is plural!" etc... things change, we adapt.
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Post by sawwhet on Feb 22, 2021 13:44:22 GMT
I posted something similar a few posts back. It has nothing to do with America, racism or slavery. You’d be surprised what is and isn’t anti-blackness no matter what you read about the origin the use means Black is bad and white isn’t. Any time we can remove that from our daily language and habits would be a move in the right direction if you ask me. I remember noting all the words that contained the world black and were negative while I was on punishment and being made to write sentences. Had to be about 9-11 years old at the time. Feelings about yourself are internalized in a way where you don’t usually consult an adult about it first. Just FYI for those of you who need an extra push to rethink your use of black sheep. Again, irrelevant. Notice in the article that the term Black Sheep was not mentioned? It wasn't mentioned because it's about sheep. It's agricultural. The term is referenced in old English hundreds of years ago. Stop trying to make it an American racial term. It is not. In this case black is bad because black wool could not be dyed so it was worthless to the farmer.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Feb 22, 2021 13:45:26 GMT
We must have been typing at the same time. I’m sorry you feel that way. I think this one is a very cut and dry lesson so going back and forth isn’t needed. There are no nuances to discuss. Either you care to make the change or you don’t. Either you see the error in something you’ve done for years and want to take an easy step in a new direction or you just don’t give a damn. Simple It’s a Monday for me regardless.
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Post by Kerri W on Feb 22, 2021 13:48:18 GMT
Regardless of its origins, it perpetuates the idea that white = good and black = bad. That's all people are trying to say. Sometimes the meanings of things change and we try to adapt so that our word choices don't contribute to ideas that can hurt others. I've struggled with this myself: "but thug isn't racist" and "they/them is plural!" etc... things change, we adapt. Saying this a little bit louder.
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Post by sawwhet on Feb 22, 2021 13:50:21 GMT
Regardless of its origins, it perpetuates the idea that white = good and black = bad. That's all people are trying to say. Sometimes the meanings of things change and we try to adapt so that our word choices don't contribute to ideas that can hurt others. I've struggled with this myself: "but thug isn't racist" and "they/them is plural!" etc... things change, we adapt. Is "thug" racist? A thug can be any colour? We have Mafia thugs in town, all white, violent criminals. I use they/them because it makes sense. The Black Sheep of a family could be the shining star but different from the rest of the family. Not necessarily bad.
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Post by peabay on Feb 22, 2021 13:52:26 GMT
Regardless of its origins, it perpetuates the idea that white = good and black = bad. That's all people are trying to say. Sometimes the meanings of things change and we try to adapt so that our word choices don't contribute to ideas that can hurt others. I've struggled with this myself: "but thug isn't racist" and "they/them is plural!" etc... things change, we adapt. Is "thug" racist? A thug can be any colour? We have Mafia thugs in town, all white, violent criminals. I use they/them because it makes sense. The Black Sheep of a family could be the shining star but different from the rest of the family. Not necessarily bad. Listen, I hear what you're saying. I dug my heels in on word choices for too long. But they are just words. We have plenty of others to express ourselves. The use of the word "thug"
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Feb 22, 2021 13:55:42 GMT
I’ve stopped calling myself the odd man out years ago. My grandmother told me words give things power so I stopped feeding it and crazy enough it stopped growing. No one says shit to me about my life choices nowadays!
Funny how self coined the term is. And how proud the people are who usually place themselves in that box.
I think you are only the odd man out if you give a damn what your family thinks of you.
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Post by freecharlie on Feb 22, 2021 13:56:21 GMT
Regardless of its origins, it perpetuates the idea that white = good and black = bad. That's all people are trying to say. Sometimes the meanings of things change and we try to adapt so that our word choices don't contribute to ideas that can hurt others. I've struggled with this myself: "but thug isn't racist" and "they/them is plural!" etc... things change, we adapt. Is "thug" racist? A thug can be any colour? We have Mafia thugs in town, all white, violent criminals. I use they/them because it makes sense. The Black Sheep of a family could be the shining star but different from the rest of the family. Not necessarily bad. I think some people get a specific image when they hear thug. I do think sometimes it is location based I've also hear the assholes that stormed the capital called thugs, so... In this case, to me, if is city people thinking they know about sheep Also, in my family, being the black sheep is a good thing
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Post by Olan on Feb 22, 2021 13:59:57 GMT
Is "thug" racist? A thug can be any colour? We have Mafia thugs in town, all white, violent criminals. I use they/them because it makes sense. The Black Sheep of a family could be the shining star but different from the rest of the family. Not necessarily bad. I think some people get a specific image when they hear thug. I do think sometimes it is location based I've also hear the assholes that stormed the capital called thugs, so... In this case, to me, if is city people thinking they know about sheep Also, in my family, being the black sheep is a good thing America does have a specific image in mind which would explain why some people have been allowed to terrorize society without many hurdles. No one suspects until they do and hell even after let’s talk about the collegiate sport they played or their hobbies first.
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Post by sawwhet on Feb 22, 2021 14:02:22 GMT
We must have been typing at the same time. I’m sorry you feel that way. I think this one is a very cut and dry lesson so going back and forth isn’t needed. There are no nuances to discuss. Either you care to make the change or you don’t. Either you see the error in something you’ve done for years and want to take an easy step in a new direction or you just don’t give a damn. Simple It’s a Monday for me regardless. I actually do give a damn but to me it's two different scenarios and I don't want to be afraid to use the word black as it applies to a SHADE. The shade of black often provides a negative connotation. The skies are black, it's going to rain. The sheep is black which is genetically odd and rare. A black cloud over your head referring to an emotion or mood. To make a leap to slavery and racial tension is a far stretch to me. Have a good day. ETA: I'm not American if that makes a difference.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Feb 22, 2021 14:03:57 GMT
We must have been typing at the same time. I’m sorry you feel that way. I think this one is a very cut and dry lesson so going back and forth isn’t needed. There are no nuances to discuss. Either you care to make the change or you don’t. Either you see the error in something you’ve done for years and want to take an easy step in a new direction or you just don’t give a damn. Simple It’s a Monday for me regardless. I actually do give a damn but to me it's two different scenarios and I don't want to be afraid to use the word black as it applies to a SHADE.  The shade of black often provides a negative connotation. The skies are black, it's going to rain. The sheep is black which is genetically odd and rare. A black cloud over your head referring to an emotion or mood. To make a leap to slavery and racial tension is a far stretch to me. Have a good day. You don’t want to be afraid? That’s an interesting way of phrasing your resistance to change. You have a good day as well.
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Post by Olan on Feb 22, 2021 14:11:50 GMT
America isn’t the only place that is anti-black. Unfortunately anti-blackness is global.
You don’t have to be American to be racist or anti-black.
Anytime someone has a background in science or education you should know....best practices change ALL the time. What was okay a decade ago doesn’t fly in the classroom or lab today. So we change policies procedures ways of handling things and don’t dig in our heels about how it was previously done. Melanistic animals could probably teach us a thing or two about evolving.
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Post by sawwhet on Feb 22, 2021 14:18:57 GMT
America isn’t the only place that is anti-black. Unfortunately anti-blackness is global. You don’t have to be American to be racist or anti-black. I get that. The description of black as a shade as it pertains to an object is not racial. Most understand this. Americans are much more sensitive to the use of this word because you tend to make it racial. To me the usage of "black as coal" would be used to describe the blackness of a shade or "black as night" is used to describe the darkness or lack of light. These are not racial, they're descriptive.
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Post by peabay on Feb 22, 2021 14:24:06 GMT
America isn’t the only place that is anti-black. Unfortunately anti-blackness is global. You don’t have to be American to be racist or anti-black. I get that. The description of black as a shade as it pertains to an object is not racial. Most understand this. Americans are much more sensitive to the use of this word because you tend to make it racial. To me the usage of "black as coal" would be used to describe the blackness of a shade or "black as night" is used to describe the darkness or lack of light. These are not racial, they're descriptive. But neither of those terms have a negative connotation.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Feb 22, 2021 14:28:02 GMT
America isn’t the only place that is anti-black. Unfortunately anti-blackness is global. You don’t have to be American to be racist or anti-black. I get that. The description of black as a shade as it pertains to an object is not racial. Most understand this.  Americans are much more sensitive to the use of this word because you tend to make it racial.  To me the usage of "black as coal" would be used to describe the blackness of a shade or "black as night" is used to describe the darkness or lack of light. These are not racial, they're descriptive. I’m getting the obtuse vibe and won’t be playing. Again America doesn’t have anti-blackness on lock. The use of the phrase “black sheep” or blacklisted blackballed blackmailed etc you’ve been put on notice that it’s anti-black. Any time you use the word after you’ve been put on notice means you don’t care about taking small steps to be anti-racist. Language is a powerful thing. It’s also an easy switch. When someone says they don’t want to “live in fear”, which by the way is a common phrase amongst “resistant humans”, my ear always perks up. I don’t think you’d use that phrase if you knew what it’s like to walk into a room of strangers as a Black woman and wonder who is anti-black. Now that’s fear.
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Post by sawwhet on Feb 22, 2021 14:29:08 GMT
I get that. The description of black as a shade as it pertains to an object is not racial. Most understand this. Americans are much more sensitive to the use of this word because you tend to make it racial. To me the usage of "black as coal" would be used to describe the blackness of a shade or "black as night" is used to describe the darkness or lack of light. These are not racial, they're descriptive. But neither of those terms have a negative connotation. A Black Sheep does not have to be negative but different from the rest of the family. Truly, the family could be flat out dysfunctional and the black sheep is considered normal by society. I'm considered the black sheep mostly because of my education and interests. Black clouds can be considered negative but they are also descriptive. This thread has taken a bizarre "pea" turn as they often do.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Feb 22, 2021 14:33:38 GMT
Language is a powerful thing. It’s also an easy switch. I agree with this. It is an easy switch. And the people in this thread sawwhet were very understanding about it. I can't read where anyone handslapped you for using a commonly used phrase, just that they are trying to educate to not use it anymore. I thought nothing of it. Being a crocheter, I knew about the history of this term. But now that I've read some posts, I will think twice about using it again. And that's the goal here, not to make anyone feel bad. When you know better, you do better.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Feb 22, 2021 14:37:20 GMT
But neither of those terms have a negative connotation. A Black Sheep does not have to be negative but different from the rest of the family. Truly, the family could be flat out dysfunctional and the black sheep is considered normal by society. I'm considered the black sheep mostly because of my education and interests. Black clouds can be considered negative but they are also descriptive. This thread has taken a bizarre "pea" turn as they often do. A bizarre turn= A Black woman shares an informative article you deem irrelevant. Another bizarre turn... You don’t want to live in fear of using the word black and I often live in fear because I am Black. I know the resistance to my being on the board is because something “fun” can turn into a discussion about race but the alternative is....well the world we live in complete with its ideals being passed down to another generation of occupants. Anti-blackness is global. I will call it out until I die.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2021 14:54:23 GMT
I’ve stopped calling myself the odd man out years ago. My grandmother told me words give things power so I stopped feeding it and crazy enough it stopped growing. No one says shit to me about my life choices nowadays! Funny how self coined the term is. And how proud the people are who usually place themselves in that box. I think you are only the odd man out if you give a damn what your family thinks of you. You've mentioned working on language, so perhaps this is an opportunity to mention that the phrase "odd man out" is sexist and reeks of the patriarchy.
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Post by sawwhet on Feb 22, 2021 14:55:01 GMT
Language is a powerful thing. It’s also an easy switch. I agree with this. It is an easy switch. And the people in this thread sawwhet were very understanding about it. I can't read where anyone handslapped you for using a commonly used phrase, just that they are trying to educate to not use it anymore. I thought nothing of it. Being a crocheter, I knew about the history of this term. But now that I've read some posts, I will think twice about using it again. And that's the goal here, not to make anyone feel bad. When you know better, you do better. Wait? What? What is wrong with crocheter? I thought it was a French term, specifically crochetier.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Feb 22, 2021 15:02:38 GMT
I agree with this. It is an easy switch. And the people in this thread sawwhet were very understanding about it. I can't read where anyone handslapped you for using a commonly used phrase, just that they are trying to educate to not use it anymore. I thought nothing of it. Being a crocheter, I knew about the history of this term. But now that I've read some posts, I will think twice about using it again. And that's the goal here, not to make anyone feel bad. When you know better, you do better. Wait? What? What is wrong with crocheter? I thought it was a French term, specifically crochetier. I think you misunderstood me. I was specifically talking about the term black sheep. Not the term crocheter. And it might very well be crochetier. It's not offensive in any way, so I don't think anyone really cares.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Feb 22, 2021 15:02:58 GMT
I’ve stopped calling myself the odd man out years ago. My grandmother told me words give things power so I stopped feeding it and crazy enough it stopped growing. No one says shit to me about my life choices nowadays! Funny how self coined the term is. And how proud the people are who usually place themselves in that box. I think you are only the odd man out if you give a damn what your family thinks of you. You've mentioned working on language, so perhaps this is an opportunity to mention that the phrase "odd man out" is sexist and reeks of the patriarchy. What would be a good alternative? Odd one out? I think I’ll just use odd-ball. The youngest members of my family help me with smashing the patriarchy. I’m a one trick pony 🤷🏾‍♀️ Also serendipitous, the most critical member of my family sent me this message today at 3:24 a.m.! http://instagram.com/p/CLlL12OrIyHkQtdx_1HZUIKegtOaRr6OV7fvSo0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2021 15:42:57 GMT
I feel abit nervous writing this in case it doesnt come accross right. I am hoping that it may help in some way.
First of all , I dont personally know what it is like to be on the receiving end of racism , but it must be a terrible thing to endure.
Language as Olan said can be very powerful and I think that words can influence predjudice .
The examples of blackmail etc do carry negative connotations associated with the word black, and it has given me pause for thought because I hadn’t realised that before now.
when I think of the words black sheep , I think of 2 things -
1 - a person who has been pushed away or looked down upon by their family for not conforming.
and
2 - the image of a sheep with black wool .
I live in a rural area, full of sheep and quite often in the fields there are one or two sheep with black wool and the rest with white wool and some have mottled grey wool. It depends on the the type of herd.
Choice of words are so important to remove and re-educate prejudice and discrimination in all areas of life. I hope it is okay to say that it took me by surprise that black sheep would be thought of as a racist term , but then I havn’t walked in Olan’s shoes. When I think of black sheep, it would never be in terms of racism. The other examples of words given have enlightened me though.
I can see things from both sides. I hope I have not hurt anyone’s feelings .
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2021 15:48:36 GMT
What would be a good alternative? Odd one out? I think I’ll just use odd-ball. The youngest members of my family help me with smashing the patriarchy. I’m a one trick pony 🤷🏾‍♀️ Also serendipitous, the most critical member of my family sent me this message today at 3:24 a.m.! http://instagr.am/p/CLlL12OrIyHkQtdx_1HZUIKegtOaRr6OV7fvSo0 "Odd one out" or "oddball." Swapping in "one" for "man" is an easy way to make the change.
As for smashing the patriarchy, I'm glad you've got family to help with that! (And fyi, the Insta account is private, so I couldn't view it, but I wanted to let you know that I tried!)
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