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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 15:49:55 GMT
I've noticed an uptick of discussion about transracial adoptions. Maybe because "This Is Us" (which I don't watch) discussed it on a recent episode? Probably also due to #BLM. I found this 1st person article about the topic really interesting: "Rebecca Carroll is the author of “Surviving the White Gaze: A Memoir.” More than half of the Black adopted kindergarteners in the United States are raised by families of another race — usually, White. And while almost always well-meaning, these White adoptive parents must also know and understand the itinerant racism, fetishizing, adultification and stereotyping imposed on their Black children from an early age. As a Black adoptee raised by White parents — incredibly loving White parents — in rural, White New England, I feel a vivid sense of urgency to offer some words of advice for White adoptive parents of Black children, and particularly Black girls:" www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/04/05/black-woman-raised-by-white-parents-advice-potential-adopters/A friend adopted a boy from Russia (12 yrs ago). Another, 2 girls from China (at two different times 20+ years ago). Another a daughter from Ethiopia (12 yrs ago). Another 3 boys from Columbia (together - 10 years ago). Another a son from the Philippines (14 yrs ago). But I never considered the broader implications.
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Post by Really Red on Apr 7, 2021 16:12:03 GMT
I haven't noticed this, but I do feel frustration that adoptive parents seem to be just thinking of this now. 25 years ago this was something many people talked about. I know the white parents I knew from back then did everything they could to do things as best they could. 4
I would be very interested in reading a study of adult children raised by a different race and see how they feel/felt. I'm not talking one person's POV, but a large study to see what the effects are. I think it would have to be contrasted with adoptees raised by their own race and Black children raised by Black parents.
Oftentimes adopted children have so many issues that overcoming any of them is pretty amazing. Having someone be racist on top of all that seems overwhelming.
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Post by katlady on Apr 7, 2021 16:19:39 GMT
There are many articles on Asian children that were adopted by Caucasian families. Many grew up in area with few Asians around. When they grow up they realize they are neither Asian enough nor White enough. They don’t know where they fit in. And didn’t Obama sort of experience this. He was raised by his white mother and lived mainly in non-black areas. He started reconnecting with his Black heritage in college.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Apr 7, 2021 16:25:27 GMT
I think it’s bigger than hair textures and belonging. I don’t know one Black adoptee raised in a white family that didn’t need extensive therapy or didn’t have issues with addiction and self loathing. I think Black foster kids are seen as “less than” so the vetting that goes into placements just isn’t the same. The Hart children Abby Johnson‘s son, and Rachel Dolezal’s adopted siblings come to mind. Super long read but informative AF isreview.org/issue/91/race-and-class-us-foster-care-system
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Post by needmysanity on Apr 7, 2021 17:26:05 GMT
I don’t know one Black adoptee raised in a white family that didn’t need extensive therapy or didn’t have issues with addiction and self loathing. That's a pretty extreme statement to make. How many black children do you personally know that were raised by white parents and how do you know they have extensive issues (unless you are their therapist)? Do adoptees have issues because of their adoption? Yes, some do. Also some don't. I have 2 sons who aren't not white (both adopted). One has had some issues with his adoption and being raised by a white mom. The other could care less. I was adopted, raised by white family - I had issues. Not of self loathing nor did I need extensive therapy but I did have some things I needed to work through. And I was the model adoption - at birth, closed adoption...still had some issues to work through. I would refrain from making such bold statements as they are not accurate. They also tend to sway people who have been considering adoption. I can't tell you how many times some person I met was shocked that I adopted a 6 yr old boy from foster care. Surely he was dangerous and had a ton of baggage because "someone's cousin adopted a kid once and that kid had all sorts of problems". That's the type of things your statement does....
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Post by Olan on Apr 7, 2021 17:31:06 GMT
It’s an extreme statement but may I also remind you it’s my lived experience, and an opinion I don’t ask anyone else to get behind.
In my statement I didn’t add any titles or make any claims to know every single Black adoptee so why you feel the need to question how many Black adoptees I know or guess what I do for a living is kinda 🧐 I also didn’t say they had extensive issues I said that they required extensive therapy. When I take something personal I have a hard time not reading more into the text I’m responding to as well but I won’t be explaining exactly how I know someone went through extensive therapy just like I’m not going to ask you how you are certain of your sons feelings about adoption.
If you can share how you feel about an issue and whatever personal experience you have I’m sure you are okay with me doing the same. And as I read what you’ve wrote please note I didn’t quote a portion of it and tell you what you’ve shared must be inaccurate.
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Post by Olan on Apr 7, 2021 17:38:14 GMT
I don’t know one Black adoptee raised in a white family that didn’t need extensive therapy or didn’t have issues with addiction and self loathing. That's a pretty extreme statement to make. How many black children do you personally know that were raised by white parents and how do you know they have extensive issues (unless you are their therapist)? Do adoptees have issues because of their adoption? Yes, some do. Also some don't. I have 2 sons who aren't not white (both adopted). One has had some issues with his adoption and being raised by a white mom. The other could care less. I was adopted, raised by white family - I had issues. Not of self loathing nor did I need extensive therapy but I did have some things I needed to work through. And I was the model adoption - at birth, closed adoption...still had some issues to work through. I would refrain from making such bold statements as they are not accurate. They also tend to sway people who have been considering adoption. I can't tell you how many times some person I met was shocked that I adopted a 6 yr old boy from foster care. Surely he was dangerous and had a ton of baggage because "someone's cousin adopted a kid once and that kid had all sorts of problems". That's the type of things your statement does.... Can you point out the inaccuracies in my statement? Not as you’ve read it but as it’s typed? In its entirety. How can my lived experience (really a second hand account of someone else’s) change adoption plans? You’ve shared your lived experience and I’ve shared mine but let’s not forget research has already been conducted and ACTUAL adoptees have shared how growing up with white patents impacted their lives. Tons of personal blogs. Tons of dissertations. Tons of niche therapists and therapies. Way to read right past the three specific adoptive cases I named too. I hate a partial quote.
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Post by Olan on Apr 7, 2021 18:45:26 GMT
peano I love to see how peas use the like feature to show support of another pea. Like do you really agree with what she said or are you just happy to see someone try for another row with me?
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Post by peano on Apr 7, 2021 19:59:08 GMT
peano I love to see how peas use the like feature to show support of another pea. Like do you really agree with what she said or are you just happy to see someone try for another row with me? Well, I thought you weren't interested in my opinion, but since you asked, I liked what she said because I agree with what she said, particularly in disagreeing with blanket statements. I think there are a lot of issues going on with adoption in general, and then when you factor in transracial adoption issues, that adds an extra layer of complexity. I had already read the WaPo article, and I found it cringey in many places--the white savior factor particularly, and the willful promulgation of the "colorblind" society, which obviously does Black adopted children no favors. I don't know where the "try for another row with me" part enters in with this. This is a discussion board with many different topics, and disagreement and different life experiences are often part of those topics. I don't understand why a thread on transracial adoption should be any different.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 20:01:55 GMT
I liked what she said because I agree with what she said, particularly in disagreeing with blanket statements. I dislike blanket statements as well. "I don’t know one Black adoptee raised in a white family that didn’t need extensive therapy or didn’t have issues with addiction and self loathing" - Is NOT a blanket statement. It is a statement of Olan's experience. She did not say "There is not one Black adoptee ....." She said "I don't know one Black adoptee..." Do you understand the difference?
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Post by peano on Apr 7, 2021 20:05:12 GMT
I liked what she said because I agree with what she said, particularly in disagreeing with blanket statements. I dislike blanket statements as well. "I don’t know one Black adoptee raised in a white family that didn’t need extensive therapy or didn’t have issues with addiction and self loathing" - Is NOT a blanket statement. It is a statement of Olan's experience. She did not say "There is not one Black adoptee ....." She said "I don't know one Black adoptee..." Do you understand the difference? Fair point. I was trying to multitask, I suck at multitasking and didn't give it the careful read it deserved.
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Post by Olan on Apr 7, 2021 20:07:27 GMT
“I don't know where the "try for another row with me" part enters in with this. This is a discussion board with many different topics, and disagreement and different life experiences are often part of those topics. I don't understand why a thread on transracial adoption should be any different.“
If this were true that would mean no one would force me to defend or take personally every statement I make.
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Post by disneypal on Apr 7, 2021 20:14:50 GMT
I saw this discussed on "This is Us" too and I hadn't really thought about it much before. I have some white friends that have adopted children from different races (one from China, two from Africa and two from South America). The kids (now ages 12 - 18) all seem to be living thriving lives. They do well in school, are very involved at church and seem like well adjusted and loving children. Of course I don't know how they truly feel or how they will feel once they are adults. We live in a multi-cultural city, I don't know how that effects how they come to terms with their adoptions/race.
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Post by Olan on Apr 7, 2021 20:17:06 GMT
I dislike blanket statements as well. "I don’t know one Black adoptee raised in a white family that didn’t need extensive therapy or didn’t have issues with addiction and self loathing" - Is NOT a blanket statement. It is a statement of Olan's experience. She did not say "There is not one Black adoptee ....." She said "I don't know one Black adoptee..." Do you understand the difference? Fair point. I was trying to multitask, I suck at multitasking and didn't give it the careful read it deserved. It’s a pretty common occurrence for someone to not give what I’ve said a “careful” read. Smug and insults usually follow. Why is that?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 20:20:41 GMT
The kids (now ages 12 - 18 The reading I've been doing about this shows that it's not until these adoptees are a little older that they start to really consider the broader implications of their adoptions. I remember watching a YT when the whole Myka Stauffer thing blew up, Alex Jayne. She is a 20-something Chinese child of a white mother (https://youtu.be/QYz1bj0IY-A). She had a nuanced view,. I think a lot of these kids are wondering why their home countries couldn't be helped more by people/governments in the West, so they could have perhaps grown up there either with their families, extended families or even as adoptees in their own homeland. Instead white families help individual children while the systemic issues remain.
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Post by Olan on Apr 7, 2021 20:23:30 GMT
I saw this discussed on "This is Us" too and I hadn't really thought about it much before. I have some white friends that have adopted children from different races (one from China, two from Africa and two from South America). The kids (now ages 12 - 18) all seem to be living thriving lives. They do well in school, are very involved at church and seem like well adjusted and loving children. Of course I don't know how they truly feel or how they will feel once they are adults. We live in a multi-cultural city, I don't know how that effects how they come to terms with their adoptions/race. I certainly think it’s possible for white parents to love and raise healthy Black childrenbut when we look at societal issues with race we’ve also got to be honest with ourselves that it must spill over into adoptions. Hell its hard for Black parents to shield and properly raise Black kids so why are we pretending how challenging it must be for white families. The history of adoption and the breaking up of Black families shouldn’t be ignored either. The links in the Devonte Hart thread are informative reads. Just understanding the history of the foster care system would stop people from arguing with my anecdotal share.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 20:32:48 GMT
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Post by peano on Apr 7, 2021 20:37:47 GMT
“I don't know where the "try for another row with me" part enters in with this. This is a discussion board with many different topics, and disagreement and different life experiences are often part of those topics. I don't understand why a thread on transracial adoption should be any different.“ If this were true that would mean no one would force me to defend or take personally every statement I make. No one here has the power to "force you to defend" every statement you make. That is a choice you make. And just speaking for myself, I in no way took personally anything you said. In fact, I agree with you, particularly with the need for increased vetting and education of adoptive parents, who I do think often go into transracial adoptions from a position of the white savior. That being said, based upon the lives of the white adopted children I've known, they also seem to have suffered disproportionately with self-loathing, depression and substance abuse. I think even with the most loving and functional adoptive parents, and even with the adult awareness of the conditions behind the adoption, there is still the acknowledged or unacknowledged question, "why did you give me up?" Rejection by one's mother, real or imagined, is a very primal and powerful condition to have to come to terms with.
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Post by Delta Dawn on Apr 7, 2021 20:37:56 GMT
Would life be better for these kids if they stayed in foster care without real families? They may have several homes while other adopted kids in the class have stable homes?
I have seen Korean adoptees who miss their Korean culture and grew up with loving parents (as per the article). Is a homeless baby or one in perpetual foster care better?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 20:39:25 GMT
Should white parents adopt black children?
Rebecca's (author from OP) interview.
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Post by peano on Apr 7, 2021 20:50:49 GMT
Fair point. I was trying to multitask, I suck at multitasking and didn't give it the careful read it deserved. It’s a pretty common occurrence for someone to not give what I’ve said a “careful” read. Smug and insults usually follow. Why is that? Or it could just be I'm sleep deprived, trying to negotiate problems with an ongoing bathroom remodel, having my DH continually interrupt me while I'm typing, and figuring out what's going to go with the ham. If you consider any of my replies smug and insulting please let me know so I can review them.
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Post by Olan on Apr 7, 2021 20:53:41 GMT
“I don't know where the "try for another row with me" part enters in with this. This is a discussion board with many different topics, and disagreement and different life experiences are often part of those topics. I don't understand why a thread on transracial adoption should be any different.“ If this were true that would mean no one would force me to defend or take personally every statement I make. No one here has the power to "force you to defend" every statement you make. That is a choice you make. And just speaking for myself, I in no way took personally anything you said. In fact, I agree with you, particularly with the need for increased vetting and education of adoptive parents, who I do think often go into transracial adoptions from a position of the white savior. That being said, based upon the lives of the white adopted children I've known, they also seem to have suffered disproportionately with self-loathing, depression and substance abuse. I think even with the most loving and functional adoptive parents, and even with the adult awareness of the conditions behind the adoption, there is still the acknowledged or unacknowledged question, "why did you give me up?" Rejection by one's mother, real or imagined, is a very primal and powerful condition to have to come to terms with. Needmysanity forced me to defend a blanket statement I didn’t even make 😂 And you went right along with it until Zingermack worded it such you couldn’t skirt around the mistake. Had she not I’d probably still be defending the stance I didn’t take 🤪though you are right it’s absolutely a choice to engage and defend what I’ve shared. I could have left it on read with no response but today I didn’t feel like it. Had I told needmysanity the lived experience she has shared over the years could deter adoption I’m sure the reception would have been much different for me. Telling me I’m making blanket statements full of inaccuracies though what I’ve said is clear AF isn’t surprising to me. It also wasn’t surprising when you liked it.
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Post by busy on Apr 7, 2021 21:01:39 GMT
That's a pretty extreme statement to make. How many black children do you personally know that were raised by white parents and how do you know they have extensive issues (unless you are their therapist)? It's not extreme. She is sharing HER EXPERIENCE. Nowhere did she say that it applies to all transracial adoptions. It's anecdotal, but worth considering, not dismissing.
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Post by Olan on Apr 7, 2021 21:04:50 GMT
If you consider any of my replies smug and insulting please let me know so I can review them. I’ve already shared with you the ways in which you’ve harmed me and you were clear on how little you cared. I won’t even bump the thread. You’ve got the historical lie you told and smug cover up, the insistence that racial trauma and watching traumatic video isn’t real, calling me Savior of the Karen’s, the Fresh Air Fund Creative Writing Project, and here you are again co-signing needmysanity. If I was consistently in the wrong on some “indignant righteousness” I wonder what the pea reception would be like.
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Post by peano on Apr 7, 2021 21:08:40 GMT
I’ve already shared with you the ways in which you’ve harmed me and you were clear on how little you cared. I won’t even bump the thread. You’ve got the historical lie you told and smug cover up, the insistence that racial trauma and watching traumatic video isn’t real, calling me Savior of the Karen’s, the Fresh Air Fund Creative Writing Project, and here you are again co-signing needmysanity. If I was consistently in the wrong on some “indignant righteousness” I wonder what the pea reception would be like. OK. I understand now the futility of continuing any discourse with you on this post.
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Post by Olan on Apr 7, 2021 21:14:31 GMT
Again you pretend like you’ve taken a high road when you are clearly in the wrong and behaving in a predictable and harm filled way. Sleep deprivation and remodeling are the excuses you hide behind now even with the call out thread and those sorry excuses being so fresh. You literally have no shame. It probably has a lot to do with being called on your shit by other peas still being a new happening. And for the peas watching..:your guess on the next time peano will be “multitasking” or make another mistake as it relates to me? Was it futile or are you just wrong and unrepentant?
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Post by Skellinton on Apr 7, 2021 21:48:10 GMT
Adoption is the way most of my close family members became parents, I actually only have one biological relative of the next generation of my family. 2 were domestic adoptive siblings, the others are from China or Thailand. My best friend adopted from China. I cannot imagine my life without these children. I cannot imagine their parents lives without these children.
The girls from China came from "good" orphanages. The images of the rows of cribs tied together and the small outside space one had seriously makes my chest hurt thinking about over 12 years since I saw them. The other orphanage didn't even have an outside space and was in a skyscraper type building. It is doubtful the girl from there had ever been outside. When they turn 14 they age out. Isn't it better that the children are adopted then left to grow up that way?
I have known several children adopted from China that had to wear special helmets to help reshape their heads because their skulls were flat from being left in their cribs for so long. I know the caretakers in the orphanages care for those children and do the very best they can for them, but it is absolutely no way for a child to live.
The child from Thailand was in a foster home with 2 other children, one who was severely cognitively impaired and hurt the younger children. The child was 12 years old and was not responsible for his behaviors but the foster family were not able to keep him from hurting the younger children. I am also not sure my relative had enough to eat as he had major food insecurity issues for about a year after he came.
I realize this all smacks of white saviorism but I don't think those adoptions were wrong. None of the family members were able to have children of their own. Adoption was their only path to becoming parents and I have to believe that the children are safer and better cared for then they could have been if they were left in the conditions they were in.
Children are removed from parents in the US because they are not being cared for (although sadly, not often enough) is that white saviorism?
I am trying to be understanding of how hard it must be to be raised by people who look nothing like you and who do not have an understanding of your heritage, but I just will never be able to think that is worse then growing up the way they would have to grow up if they had not been adopted.
I know I am rambling, i apologize.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Apr 7, 2021 21:57:09 GMT
I think it’s important we don’t make comparisons about how “better off” they are.
Adoptees have said it’s painful and creates in them this desire to please everyone. I’ve heard some pretty cringy adoption stories* told in the presence of the child and I can’t imagine how they must have felt
Your parents didn’t make you feel beholden to them for the upbringing you were provided and adoptive children shouldn’t be made to feel that way either.
I also have personal connections to adoption and fostering.
*The mother who told the cringe worthy adoption story has admitted she does this so the child won’t consider looking for their birth family when they are older. It’s like her campfire story. No matter the occasion she tells it. Graphically.
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Post by Skellinton on Apr 7, 2021 22:02:51 GMT
I think it’s important we don’t make comparisons about how “better off” they are. Adoptees have said it’s painful and creates in them this desire to please everyone. Your parents didn’t make you feel beholden to them for the upbringing you were provided and adoptive children shouldn’t either. I also have personal connections to adoption and fostering. I don’t think the parents of these children make them feel beholden. They are certainly not discussing the conditions they were being raised in with them. Do you think children should not be adopted? Obviously it would be best if children were adopted by parents of the same race, but that is not feasible or realistic. I am honestly curious on if you think Caucasian or Latina parents (one of the parents in my family is Latina) should not adopt children from China or Thailand?
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Post by aj2hall on Apr 7, 2021 22:07:49 GMT
I've noticed an uptick of discussion about transracial adoptions. Maybe because "This Is Us" (which I don't watch) discussed it on a recent episode? Probably also due to #BLM. I found this 1st person article about the topic really interesting: "Rebecca Carroll is the author of “Surviving the White Gaze: A Memoir.” More than half of the Black adopted kindergarteners in the United States are raised by families of another race — usually, White. And while almost always well-meaning, these White adoptive parents must also know and understand the itinerant racism, fetishizing, adultification and stereotyping imposed on their Black children from an early age. As a Black adoptee raised by White parents — incredibly loving White parents — in rural, White New England, I feel a vivid sense of urgency to offer some words of advice for White adoptive parents of Black children, and particularly Black girls:" www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/04/05/black-woman-raised-by-white-parents-advice-potential-adopters/A friend adopted a boy from Russia (12 yrs ago). Another, 2 girls from China (at two different times 20+ years ago). Another a daughter from Ethiopia (12 yrs ago). Another 3 boys from Columbia (together - 10 years ago). Another a son from the Philippines (14 yrs ago). But I never considered the broader implications. The teachers at my school have a book club, this is our book for April. The author grew up in our state, so there’s a local connection, too.
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