sassyangel
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Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Feb 2, 2022 15:01:29 GMT
I've certainly learned otherwise in the intervening years, but when I was in high school (class of '91), the emphasis was really on it being about religion. What we were taught about the Holocaust was not nuanced at all - it was very much Nazis bad, killed millions of Jews, and the war ended because AMERICANS. There was a lot of emphasis on the American involvement in the war and little on the rest of the war and its causes. I am sure when I graduated HS, I could have told you a lot more about specific WWII battles and American generals than anything else about the era. They didn't ignore or deny the Holocaust - they just did not explain it in any detail. It was the mass murder of millions of Jews, the end. FWIW, I got a 5 on the APUSH exam, so... đ American education. Isn't the emphasis still on religion? The main focus of people who talk about WWII, Nazi's and learning from history all talk about how Jews were discriminated against and tortured. Yes, the Nazi's wanted a "master, pure race" but a big part of that was exterminating Jews. To me, the only thing that made them "different" was their religion. I have read many, many books about WWII times and most of them were told from a Jewish perspective, not necessarily overarching themes of white supremacy. That being said, I can kind of see what Whoopi was trying to get at with some parts of her comment, but other parts are a little confusing to me. It wasnât religious practices that made them *different* to the nazi thinking though. Their idea of a master race (per Mein Kampf) was one that was a genetically pure master race, and superior because of that. Hence, why it wasnât *just* Jewish people who were enslaved and exterminated in the Holocaust. But those deemed genetically inferior. Does history in schools here gloss over or omit that was the case? Maybe that explains a little bit.
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sassyangel
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Post by sassyangel on Feb 2, 2022 15:05:57 GMT
Sorry, app glitched while submitting and so I deleted my duplicate post.
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huskergal
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Post by huskergal on Feb 2, 2022 16:04:55 GMT
I think that the concept of race vs. religion requires a fairly nuanced understanding of the Holocaust, the kind that you might get from a college class on modern Jewish history, or from pursuing the subject on your own. I wouldnât expect most people have learned that much detail in a standard high school history class. Iâm not defending Whoopi and I donât know where she stands as far as anti-Semitism goes. I donât watch The View and I'm not much of a celebrity follower. (I did think she claimed years ago that Goldberg was an ex-husband and she kept the name.) ETA I guess that part is WRONG. I just donât think that one statement on its own proves that sheâs either stupid or anti-Semitic. Off to read the KAJ article. I think heâs brilliant. I am going to agree with you. I have no idea how the Holocaust is taught in high school.
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Post by scrapmaven on Feb 2, 2022 16:11:52 GMT
I draw the line at stand up comics telling me what I should think, politically. I don't watch the view, because of my first sentence.
She must have missed the part of the holocaust where 5 million non-Jews, non-whites amongst them were also tortured and killed. He hated everyone else, too.
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Post by MissBianca on Feb 2, 2022 16:33:44 GMT
Isn't the emphasis still on religion? The main focus of people who talk about WWII, Nazi's and learning from history all talk about how Jews were discriminated against and tortured. Yes, the Nazi's wanted a "master, pure race" but a big part of that was exterminating Jews. To me, the only thing that made them "different" was their religion. I have read many, many books about WWII times and most of them were told from a Jewish perspective, not necessarily overarching themes of white supremacy. That being said, I can kind of see what Whoopi was trying to get at with some parts of her comment, but other parts are a little confusing to me. It wasnât religious practices that made them *different* to the nazi thinking though. Their idea of a master race (per Mein Kampf) was one that was a genetically pure master race, and superior because of that. Hence, why it wasnât *just* Jewish people who were enslaved and exterminated in the Holocaust. But those deemed genetically inferior. Does history in schools here gloss over or omit that was the case? Maybe that explains a little bit. Also class of 91, and the emphasis was on the American impact of WWII and about Judaism as a religion. Then and even now they try to cram so much history into a year that the curriculum just glosses over all of it. And even world history is supremely brief and glossed over, and skewed to US involvement. Heck they can take 200 years and jam it into 2 chapters which is about 2 weeks worth of work. We did not read or even hear about Mein Kampf in history class and my kids didnât either. I didnât know about until the current book series Iâm reading mentioned it, and I do know more than some about WWII because my husband is a history buff. The series Iâm reading right now by an author about my age made a comment in the book between a Nazi commander and a resistance fighter, he said that even though Jesus was a Jew he âovercame his disabilityâ and became a Christian. And that the reich was there to continue that path to create an aryan nation, with the emphasis being on removing the less desirable and that includes religion, disabilities and anything else that makes someone inferior. (Their words, not mine)
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sassyangel
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Post by sassyangel on Feb 2, 2022 17:09:34 GMT
It wasnât religious practices that made them *different* to the nazi thinking though. Their idea of a master race (per Mein Kampf) was one that was a genetically pure master race, and superior because of that. Hence, why it wasnât *just* Jewish people who were enslaved and exterminated in the Holocaust. But those deemed genetically inferior. Does history in schools here gloss over or omit that was the case? Maybe that explains a little bit. Also class of 91, and the emphasis was on the American impact of WWII and about Judaism as a religion. Then and even now they try to cram so much history into a year that the curriculum just glosses over all of it. And even world history is supremely brief and glossed over, and skewed to US involvement. Heck they can take 200 years and jam it into 2 chapters which is about 2 weeks worth of work. We did not read or even hear about Mein Kampf in history class and my kids didnât either. I didnât know about until the current book series Iâm reading mentioned it, and I do know more than some about WWII because my husband is a history buff. The series Iâm reading right now by an author about my age made a comment in the book between a Nazi commander and a resistance fighter, he said that even though Jesus was a Jew he âovercame his disabilityâ and became a Christian. And that the reich was there to continue that path to create an aryan nation, with the emphasis being on removing the less desirable and that includes religion, disabilities and anything else that makes someone inferior. (Their words, not mine) Iâm a class of 91 too, but I wasnât educated here, so I was interested. That makes sense. Itâs seems in discussions with my hubby WWII is taught here effectively 1942(well Dec 7 1941)-1945 based on US involvement, without as much focus on the intrinsic causes (there are many) of why it started in the first place. Iâm also wondering if because of the history of this country where targeted racial discrimination has been more clearly and historically along skin color lines, if the religious aspect was emphasized more because itâs given that the main targets were European Jews seems to be not an clear racial issue - in contrast. Iâll just add that thatâs not to say religion wasnât additionally used as a factor (in a âthey donât even worship like usâ way) but it was more in addition to the reasons of âgenetic inferiorityâ instead of the entire reason. Itâs not wrong, itâs just not the full picture that I learned, I guess.
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Post by tentoes on Feb 2, 2022 17:32:46 GMT
I'm wondering why they didn't fire her? Do you think she helps keep their ratings up? Also, I wonder why she chose the name "Goldberg" (which is an inherently Jewish name) for her stage name? For a long time, I wondered if she was Jewish. Something tells me this will happen or she resigns. It would be "better" for her if she did resign.
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Post by MichyM on Feb 2, 2022 18:58:54 GMT
Out of curiousity, I turned on The View this morning (it's just finishing up as I type this).
This show is pure "info-tainment" IMHO. Certainly not news, nor do these (seemingly intelligent) women seem to have any greater insight into news of the day than anyone else.
What I tuned in for, was to see how they dealt with the Whoopie issue. They didn't. Joy said something to the effect of "Whoopie will be back in two weks and we all have already read about it." And that was that. Then they went into a segment called "hot topics," during which this could have been addressed. But no.
I imagine they'll make it all "a teaching moment" when she comes back, but I honestly would have liked to know how her co-stars feel about what went down. KWIM?
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Post by librarylady on Feb 2, 2022 19:27:34 GMT
from Wikipedia: About her stage surname, she claimed in 2011, "My mother did not name me Whoopi, but Goldberg is my nameâit's part of my family, part of my heritage, just like being black", and "I just know I am Jewish. I practice nothing. I don't go to temple, but I do remember the holidays."[16] She has stated that "people would say 'Come on, are you Jewish?' And I always say 'Would you ask me that if I was white? I bet not.'"[16] One account recalls that her mother, Emma Johnson, thought the family's original surname was "not Jewish enough" for her daughter to become a star.[16] Researcher Henry Louis Gates Jr. found that all of Goldberg's traceable ancestors were African Americans, that she had no known German or Jewish ancestry, and that none of her ancestors were named Goldberg.[12] Results of a DNA test, revealed in the 2006 PBS documentary African American Lives, traced part of her ancestry to the Papel and Bayote people of modern-day Guinea-Bissau. Her admixture test indicates that she is of 92 percent sub-Saharan African origin and of 8 percent European origin.[17] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whoopi_Goldberg
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Post by epeanymous on Feb 2, 2022 19:30:22 GMT
I've certainly learned otherwise in the intervening years, but when I was in high school (class of '91), the emphasis was really on it being about religion. What we were taught about the Holocaust was not nuanced at all - it was very much Nazis bad, killed millions of Jews, and the war ended because AMERICANS. There was a lot of emphasis on the American involvement in the war and little on the rest of the war and its causes. I am sure when I graduated HS, I could have told you a lot more about specific WWII battles and American generals than anything else about the era. They didn't ignore or deny the Holocaust - they just did not explain it in any detail. It was the mass murder of millions of Jews, the end. FWIW, I got a 5 on the APUSH exam, so... đ American education. Isn't the emphasis still on religion? The main focus of people who talk about WWII, Nazi's and learning from history all talk about how Jews were discriminated against and tortured. Yes, the Nazi's wanted a "master, pure race" but a big part of that was exterminating Jews. To me, the only thing that made them "different" was their religion. I have read many, many books about WWII times and most of them were told from a Jewish perspective, not necessarily overarching themes of white supremacy. That being said, I can kind of see what Whoopi was trying to get at with some parts of her comment, but other parts are a little confusing to me. No. Jews were targeted because Nazis viewed Jews as a race. Your religious practice did not affect that. Nazis targeted and killed plenty of people who were practicing as Christians or were nonreligious, because they had Jewish blood. You can look at Nazi posters from the era and see the racial charicatures. The part of my husbandâs family that was killed didnât identify as Jewish by religion. They didnât practice any religion. To the extent they celebrated anything? They put up a Christmas tree.
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Just T
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Post by Just T on Feb 2, 2022 19:47:27 GMT
I will admit that for a good part of my life, I too thought the Holocaust was about religion. But as I learned more, mostly from a college class I had as an adult, it became clear it was about race. Until that class, I thought only practicing Jews were targeted and sent to the camps. I was surprised when I learned that someone could have been born and raised Christian, yet if there was someone Jewish in their family tree, they were considered a Jew, so for Hitler, it was about him thinking of being Jewish as a race. I didn't know until I was an adult that Naziism is white supremacy. I also do not remember learning in school all of the other groups that Hitler targeted in order to make a "pure" race. What I learned in school was that Hitler hated Jews. But I went to school in the 60s and 70s ,so...
I am going to ask my kids what they learned in HS about the Holocaust.
Today, I think there is no excuse for Whoopi G to not know that the Holocaust was about race, not religion.
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msladibug
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Post by msladibug on Feb 2, 2022 20:12:17 GMT
I can remember learning in school about the Holocaust being about Jews being killed because they were of the Jewish religion. It was my Mom who taught me that others were killed because their races were considered inferiors.
I can remember taking Black history class in HS and not doing that great in class because the history that was being skimmed over was not the Black history my Mom taught me. My teacher didnât appreciate me not conforming to the lessons that he taught. There were only 6 or 8 Black kids in my high school and I was prob the only one questioning the teacherâs lessons, which were quite â liteâ compared to what I learned from my Mom and my grandparents who were sharecroppers and slaves.
So, yes a lot of folks are misinformed because of a lot of watered down history.
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sassyangel
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Post by sassyangel on Feb 2, 2022 20:14:29 GMT
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Post by sleepingbooty on Feb 2, 2022 20:19:36 GMT
I'm kind of surprised seeing the religion vs race consideration of the Holocaust. I didn't realise people - perhaps mostly non-Europeans? - were making the religious assumption. I've always known it to be about the Aryan race (not just the "white people" but a very specific pseudo-race of white people which, ironically, Hitler didn't represent) and the demonisation of the Jewish people as an inferior but allegedly cunning and profiteering "race". To those were added all the other "societal leeches" and undesirables like the homosexuals, the asocials (another one of those weird etiquettes), the common criminals (not necessarily criminals, actually, quelle surprise), Communists, Gypsies, etc. The Nazi Party itself was actually very divided over actual religion: one half pretty much didn't care and had a surprisingly close view of organised religion to the hated Communist neighbours (only Hitler himself was to be worshipped, no god to compete with), the other half was hyper Christian and really wanted to reinstate some form of Christian state religion and rigour. There had been some serious infighting on the matter. But Hitler's word ruled and ultimately it is undeniable that the majority of the Nazi Party and State aligned with what's called ethnotheism, that is to say religion defined by race and the particular characteristics and moral failings the Nazis thought were inherent to race. For more about the racial hierarchy according to the Nazis, this subsection of the Nazi racial theories Wiki entry explains it all succinctly. It's not about religion at all. It's about some mythical view of blood purity. In a world where conspiracy theories about world domination by secret elite and deep state dominate a significant part of the sociopolitical debate, we're right back at this antisemitic madness. It's more important than ever to understand its dormant but steady and ever-spreading roots. Hitler's accusation of the Jews was a very simple tactic to swing the people's anger onto a far too easy target. It's happening all over again and the "Jew sympathisers" including the bulk of the Liberals will be dragged down along this time. The social fracture is going to be even greater than it was in Western Europe circa 1940-45. It ain't pretty. It ain't pretty at all. And I'm not looking forward to what's to come. Not one bit.
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Post by mollycoddle on Feb 2, 2022 20:22:13 GMT
This is a description of a PBS program called The Master Race. It contains statements from people who witnessed-and ones who participated in the Holocaust. It specifically mentions the master race.
Full Program Description Master Race Nazism overtakes German society Original broadcast: Monday, June 15 at 9pm (check local listings for re-broadcast dates)
"A sea of swastikas. We were out in the streets and went to the Brandenburg Gate and watched the Nazis marching into power. Restaurants were open almost all night. People were drinking, there was a huge commotion. We were shocked by this incredible upsurge and the sudden swing to Nazis." Josef Felder remembers the eve of Adolf Hitler's inauguration as Chancellor. The following day, the national socialists swept to power and the German people would take their first steps down a new road.
Berlin, 1933: With a unique blend of nationalism, militarism, and racial theory, Adolf Hitler persuades millions that they are a unique people -- a master race with a special destiny. He promises a more orderly and united society, free of industrial conflict and ripe with opportunity and new jobs. Luise Essig remembers Hitler and her first Nazi Party party -- a Harvest Festival: "We all felt the same, the same happiness and joy. Harvest Festival was a 'thank you' for us farmers having a future again. Things were looking up. I believe no statesman has ever been as loved as Adolf Hitler was then. It's all come flooding back to me. Those were happy times."
An entire generation was taught to live the ideal German life the Nazi's prescribed. Reinhard Spitzy remembers: "I personally was in the SS. 'Selected people shall be the future aristocratic spinebone of the German nation.' I felt myself very much flattered by being chosen for this. And then the uniform was very beautiful -- black. Of course we liked the uniform and boots and all that."
The SS had originated as Hitler's bodyguards -- but they would soon spearhead the drive to confirm the German people's supremacy. To build national unity, the Nazi's turned to blame: The Allies of the First World War were responsible for the country's economic distress; weak leadership of the 1920s contributed to Germany's problems. And then there were the Jews. The Nazi's drew on old hatred and old jealousies; says Rienhard Spitzy: "[The Jews] were much slyer in business . . . excellent in literature, in theaters, in cinema, in science. And of course all that made for a strong and hard-line anti-Semitism."
"It was a process which developed slowly, but surely, and took over all sections of the population who had never thought about it before," recalls Horst Slesina, an officer in the Nazi Propaganda Ministry from 1934 to 1945. "A lot of them talked about it, not necessarily believing it. But gradually their brains became fogged. They started to say, 'The Jews are our misfortune'."
The misfortune, however, was to be a Jew -- or black, homosexual, mentally or physically challenged, a Gypsy, or among any one of the minorities then judged to be subhuman. Records were made on the basis of physical appearance and ancestry. Partners had to be chosen with great care. Rienhard Spitzy: "I was affected by this when I married. . . . We thought that we should, that we could form a new ideal race -- and I chose my wife according to this line."
For those who weren't considered a threat to the German race, life was improving by 1937. Germans were regaining their pride as Hitler's aggressive diplomacy forced respect from European neighbors. At home, propaganda continued to find eager listeners. Friedl Sonnenberg remembers: "Young people were the most excited by the propaganda, over ninety percent of us were behind everything that went on." And state film and radio would drive the message home, one idea above all others -- "in a word," says Horst Slesina, "the greatness of the German people. Propaganda gave people a big boost in confidence for the first time."
In March 1938, Germany absorbed Austria in direct defiance of the Treaty of Versailles. It was a euphoric moment -- for the Nazis. Norbert Lopper was a nineteen-year-old Viennese Jew: "There had always been anti-Semitism in Vienna, long before 1938. But then it became official and that made it much worse." The Nazis were determined to expand their territory, invading Czechoslovakia in January 1939. With Hitler's invasion of Poland that September came the Second World War. And by 1941, the decision to systematically kill all Jews -- the "Final Solution" -- had been made.
Ejszyszki, Lithuania in September 1941, the Nazi's led some 3,500 Jews to pits outside the town and ordered them to undress. Zvi Michaeli was sixteen: "When I saw Rabbi Zushe undressed, I thought this was the end. The verses from Psalms that he recited in our ears up until then -- I'd been confident that we wouldn't die. And my father was saying 'You will live, don't be afraid.' He put his left hand on me. I saw my brother David climbing up on his thigh; so tight, he clung so tight. He didn't let go of him until the last minute. And the shots of the machine gun. There was a mixture of voices, of people crying, and children, and the shots -- and the dust -- and everything mingled together.... I felt my father give me a push and then fall on top of me. He covered me. He wanted me to live."
Shootings took place in thousands of towns and villages across the Third Reich. JĂŒrgen Kroger was an interpreter for one of the execution squads: "They said the Jews were an inferior race. One of them said to me, 'It's like having a rosebush and the rosebush has got greenfly on it. You have to get rid of the greenfly.' The Jews weren't human beings for them. It was like killing fleas."
Dora Schwartz was sent to a concentration camp. She describes her arrival at Auschwitz: "When we arrived, we didn't know where we were. We suspected this was a place of death. We saw those chimneys. We saw the smoke from the chimneys. The sight made you shudder. This was going to be our fate."
Hans MĂŒnch served as an SS doctor at Auschwitz and remembers the gas chambers: "[The chamber] was almost hermetically sealed. You could hardly hear anything. Then the Zyclon B gas was thrown in from the top and the doctor had to check after about ten minutes to see if it was all over. . . . You looked through the peephole and if everyone was on the floor, then it was alright. Then the doors...were opened and lorries drove up to take them away more easily."
Since 1933, Nazi Germany had sung the rousing songs, been stirred by the FĂŒhrer's rhetoric, and shared the glow of early military success. Twelve years later, on May 7, 1945, Germany surrendered unconditionally. Only now would the true cost of the Nazi pursuit of a special racial destiny be exposed.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Feb 2, 2022 21:37:25 GMT
When I asked my son today what he learned in high school ten years ago, he had no idea (and I also have no idea what and when I was taught)âŠ
But he did add to the conversation by discussing how Nazi racial/ethnic pecking order accounted for differences in their treatment as occupiers of (Gentile) populaces, like Slavs (e.g. Poles) being considered notably more inferior than people in Belgium or France and policies being enacted to reflect that view.
It reminded me that when I visited the place in Capetown where people went during apartheid to be officially classified as either black or âcoloredâ (usually a mix), they had formulas and graphs and âdrops of bloodâ calculus displayed in the museum exhibits that reminded me - chillingly - of similar relics in the U.S. Holocaust Museum. Always a pecking orderâŠ
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Post by ntsf on Feb 3, 2022 4:34:09 GMT
and 100 yrs ago, italians and those from southern europe were not considered "white".. but inferior.. as many immigrants came to america..and they were "othered".. dirty.. non protestant, non white.. all sorts of horrible ideas.
so these trends manifest in many ways and many times. the jewish people have been subject to this for hundreds of years.
I was in high school in the 1970's. our class never made it through usa history in ww2.. (though our history teacher had been an RAF pilot). we didn't learn about the holocaust. though I personally knew people who had escaped europe in the 1930's. we heard about it.. a very little. I learned most about it from tv shows, and my love of reading history. my kids know about it because I made sure they knew about it.
I think also the diary of anne frank's popularity in the later 1970's was the source of information for many.. we certainly did not read it in school.
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Post by sleepingbooty on Feb 3, 2022 6:04:35 GMT
So, this thread made me wonder if the French National Education history & geography programme for the final year of high school still has a chunk dedicated to the WW2 extermination agenda. Over here, private and public schools are mandated to follow a national curriculum that leads to a national exam all students in France sit at the exact same time around the country with the exact same questions. You are then graded anonymously with an ID number (no name shown) by a random teacher from a different school (so they can't recognise your handwriting to remain impartial). There's no way around the programme: every student needs to know what has been decided by the Ministry of National Education, period. Theme 1 is still to this day "Fragilities of democracies, totalitarisms and the Second World War (1929-1945)" with Chapter 3 dedicated to 3 objectives including "war crimes, mass violences and crimes, Shoah, genocide of Gypsies" (plus "France in the war: occupation, collaboration, Vichy regime, RĂ©sistance" so both the positive and negative roles our own country played). ( source) I remember very clearly having to learn the map of the different types of camps run by the Nazi regime and the collaborating states, what kind of work and/or extermination programme these camps ran, the nordicist Nazi race theory, the impact on the Jewish people of Europe, the power of literature to tell the Shoah (hyper precise scientific retelling Ă la Primo Levi vs fiction-only-can-render-the-true-horror like Jorge SemprĂșn), the origins (not just the Kristallnacht but going back to the rise of the pseudo-scientific formulation and argumentation of these race theories around Europe decades earlier). It was no easy or quick task.
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Post by ntsf on Feb 3, 2022 6:40:41 GMT
sleepingbooty.. studying a war that took place in the place you are studying.. sort of like the usa studies the civil war.. it happened to us!! vs studying a war that mostly took place elsewhere.. to other people. ..not to say the americans were not greatly affected.. but combat did not happen in most of our country.
that is a flaw in history instruction in the usa.. mostly much of the action is removed from where you live. it is always-.."over there" and not here. we have poor instruction in geography also.. too many "man on the street" interviews.. people could not name the continents, could not tell you when ww2 was or where it was and who was fighting. somehow americans are ok with generally having poor general knowledge.
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Post by sleepingbooty on Feb 3, 2022 7:14:43 GMT
sleepingbooty.. studying a war that took place in the place you are studying.. sort of like the usa studies the civil war.. it happened to us!! vs studying a war that mostly took place elsewhere.. to other people. ..not to say the americans were not greatly affected.. but combat did not happen in most of our country. It's one of the 2 World Wars. There were many wars happening in Europe before WW2 that were covered in the previous years of education, particularly for as hostile and war-prone a country like France. Shit, we are near or at the top of the most war-winning nations on record with 2000 years of going at it. WW2 is the one where we actually backed down and decided not go on the counter-attack (not the best idea in restrospect). I really wouldn't compare WW2 to the US Civil War as it seems like a pretty poor analogy to me. Napoleonic or Revolutionary France is a much better comparison to draw for the Civil War times. As an ally country especially, I'd expect some significant instruction. If you check the source above, even without knowing a lick of French, you'll see the final year programme also spends a plenty of time on non-European events where France had no or very minimal involvement including Mao's China, the Cuba missile crisis, Ronald Reagan and Deng Xiaoping, etc. American education leaves me really surprised sometimes. Without basic world knowledge, how does one build critical thinking and break down present-day (and past) information to figure out whether it's reliable or not? You either have access to in-depth private education (which is by world standards excellent in the US, paradoxically), have parents with a solid overall education who are keen on transmitting this knowledge or you're at a serious disadvantage. It's really sad.
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Post by lesserknownpea on Feb 3, 2022 10:18:25 GMT
Lots of good points in this thread. I would like to point out that anti-semitism was rampant all over Europe and here in the US, too. What little is taught to US kids in school glosses right over that. Jewish families were desperate to move somewhere safe in the 30âs, and no one wanted them. Germany was not the only country where politicians talked of â The Jewish problemâ, just the only country to decide genocide was the answer.
Oppression and hatred of Jews over most of the occupied world goes back well over 2,000 years.
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Post by epeanymous on Feb 3, 2022 16:43:55 GMT
I can remember learning in school about the Holocaust being about Jews being killed because they were of the Jewish religion. It was my Mom who taught me that others were killed because their races were considered inferiors. I can remember taking Black history class in HS and not doing that great in class because the history that was being skimmed over was not the Black history my Mom taught me. My teacher didnât appreciate me not conforming to the lessons that he taught. There were only 6 or 8 Black kids in my high school and I was prob the only one questioning the teacherâs lessons, which were quite â liteâ compared to what I learned from my Mom and my grandparents who were sharecroppers and slaves. So, yes a lot of folks are misinformed because of a lot of watered down history. As bad as it seems Holocaust education is in this country, I feel like how I was taught Black history was even worse. It was basically -- there was slavery, then there was the Civil War, and then there was the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s, which was basically just MLK, and that . . . was it. I appreciate that schools have so much that they need to do, but I do think that we'd be much better off in our political discussions if K-12 schools uniformly taught history deeply and well (I know that plenty of schools do -- I've been impressed by the units my high-schoolers have had -- but it's clear that not all schools do, and it's clear that many districts are gearing up to do even worse on purpose).
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Post by epeanymous on Feb 3, 2022 16:46:08 GMT
sleepingbooty.. studying a war that took place in the place you are studying.. sort of like the usa studies the civil war.. it happened to us!! vs studying a war that mostly took place elsewhere.. to other people. ..not to say the americans were not greatly affected.. but combat did not happen in most of our country. It's one of the 2 World Wars. There were many wars happening in Europe before WW2 that were covered in the previous years of education, particularly for as hostile and war-prone a country like France. Shit, we are near or at the top of the most war-winning nations on record with 2000 years of going at it. WW2 is the one where we actually backed down and decided not go on the counter-attack (not the best idea in restrospect). I really wouldn't compare WW2 to the US Civil War as it seems like a pretty poor analogy to me. Napoleonic or Revolutionary France is a much better comparison to draw for the Civil War times. As an ally country especially, I'd expect some significant instruction. If you check the source above, even without knowing a lick of French, you'll see the final year programme also spends a plenty of time on non-European events where France had no or very minimal involvement including Mao's China, the Cuba missile crisis, Ronald Reagan and Deng Xiaoping, etc. American education leaves me really surprised sometimes. Without basic world knowledge, how does one build critical thinking and break down present-day (and past) information to figure out whether it's reliable or not? You either have access to in-depth private education (which is by world standards excellent in the US, paradoxically), have parents with a solid overall education who are keen on transmitting this knowledge or you're at a serious disadvantage. It's really sad. Everything you say is true, although I will say that it's not really a public/private school divide here -- there are excellent private and public schools, and really, really questionable private and public schools, unfortunately. Part of the drive here to de-fund public education is to get more $$ into the hands of the private schools that are going to do exactly the opposite of what you'd hope with respect to history education.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 3, 2022 17:41:51 GMT
You know this thread made me realize that perhaps I'm often too hard on my high school. I really don't feel like these things were glossed over - I also went to an extremely diverse high school - both students and faculty, so perhaps that has something to do with it. One of my teachers was interned during WWII, so there was a ton of discussion around not just the Holocaust, but also how Japanese Americans were treated here. I also had an English teacher - maybe junior year?! who was extremely active in the Civil Rights movement and 90% of our books and writings were around other cultures and minority authors.
My biggest beef with history was that it was extremely US and European focused. I learned a ton when my kids were in school as they covered way more on Asia and Africa.
I'll also say, I think it's kind of sad that so many Americans stop learning after high school. I think that's part of what irritated me about the View - this is just not an educated individual - not because of what her high school did or didn't teach her, but what she's chosen to learn over the subsequent 40 years and she has a platform that pretends her opinion matters - that's just wrong.
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 6, 2022 4:00:53 GMT
Something tells me this will happen or she resigns. It would be "better" for her if she did resign. I don't watch The View, but I think it's ridiculous to fire, or suspend someone when they make a mistake. You have a conversation, you don't silence them. And it seems to be a conversation that needs to be aired.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,097
Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on Feb 6, 2022 6:29:11 GMT
It would be "better" for her if she did resign. I don't watch The View, but I think it's ridiculous to fire, or suspend someone when they make a mistake. You have a conversation, you don't silence them. And it seems to be a conversation that needs to be aired. Yeah her âJewish American princessâ fried chicken recipe doesnât seem to be a mistake.
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