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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 15, 2022 22:55:49 GMT
Leaving aside this particular case to cover such matters generally. I don't dispute that we must listen to women and investigate all allegations but we must also be very careful that we don't ruin innocent men's lives in the process. Not all women who make allegations do so truthfully. We as a society must be careful not to take the stance that the woman must be telling the truth at all cost and the man must be guilty on her say so. The court of public opinion has ruined many a man's life. You must know how under reported sexual assaults are in our world, in a big part because of attitudes like this. We as a society must be careful that we don't continue to let men, especially white men from good families, get away with criminal behavior for fear of ruining their lives. Yes, I have a son and nephews, a father, brother and husband. ETA You all know someone who has been sexually assaulted, you just may not be seen by them as an ally or someone they can confide in without worry of being judged. But you all know at least one person, very likely more than one. Thank you. Truly - people are so ignorant of the reality of sexual assault. Millions are unreported because they can't face the judgement. This is an extreme case and pisses me off, but in reality you don't need to be royalty to get away with raping a teenager - it happens every single day.
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Post by MichyM on Feb 16, 2022 0:03:24 GMT
Leaving aside this particular case to cover such matters generally. I don't dispute that we must listen to women and investigate all allegations but we must also be very careful that we don't ruin innocent men's lives in the process. Not all women who make allegations do so truthfully. We as a society must be careful not to take the stance that the woman must be telling the truth at all cost and the man must be guilty on her say so. The court of public opinion has ruined many a man's life. You must know how under reported sexual assaults are in our world, in a big part because of attitudes like this.
We as a society must be careful that we don't continue to let men, especially white men from good families, get away with criminal behavior for fear of ruining their lives. I could not agree more.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 16, 2022 0:05:45 GMT
The news report I just watched said that all the settlement money is going to Virginia's charity. But surely she'd keep enough to pay her legal fees, which must amount to millions by now. Or would that be paid by Andrew as an extra? ETA. Another news report has now reported that the settlement is around $14 million (Australian), and that Virginia will keep part of that, and give the rest to her charity. They are also saying that Prince Charles has put the pressure on Andy to settle, so the whole mess is out of the way before the Queens jubilee celebrations in a few months. Oh we couldn't have the Queen's party ruined by her son's rape of a teenager. That would be so very unfortunate. Let's just sweep that right under the rug so he can join the party.
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Post by pjaye on Feb 16, 2022 1:53:55 GMT
" It is known that Jeffrey Epstein trafficked countless young girls over many years," the letter continues. " Prince Andrew regrets his association with Epstein, and commends the bravery of Ms. Giuffre and other survivors in standing up for themselves and others. He pledges to demonstrate his regret for his association with Epstein by supporting the fight against the evils of sex trafficking, and by supporting its victims."" YOU do realise that most of us are capable of reading and understanding a statement without your constant need to enlarge letters and spoon feed us your version and which parts you "think" are most important? Right?
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Post by Bridget in MD on Feb 16, 2022 1:56:03 GMT
I saw on the telegraph (not sure if that is a credible source) that the queen will help him pay the amount. I can’t read the article bc it’s behind a paywall.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 16, 2022 2:13:00 GMT
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Post by zima on Feb 16, 2022 2:32:13 GMT
I saw on the telegraph (not sure if that is a credible source) that the queen will help him pay the amount. I can’t read the article bc it’s behind a paywall. Another aspect of this case that's far from surprising to those who've been paying attention to the mo of the BRF.
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Post by sabrinae on Feb 16, 2022 2:32:32 GMT
I'm disappointed that he agreed to settle and not continue to clear his name. I'm surprised she agreed to it though when she has always said it wasn't about the money but his admission that he had actually sexual assaulted her. I guess in the end the lure of the money was more attractive than getting to the truth. It’s a civil case. The only outcome can be one of monetary consideration. Reports are a multi-million dollar settlement to her personally and to a charity for victims. What else is she supposed to do? This is who civil suits work. They very rarely go to trial. This big of a settlement is an admission to wrong doing especially when you consider the statement Andrew and his attorneys signed off on which while didn’t directly admit guilt certainly doesn’t make him look good. She got just about everything she could have gotten out of a trial.
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Post by mom on Feb 16, 2022 2:47:26 GMT
The only reason I am semi-OK with it is because Andrew is reportedly almost broke. Hopefully if the Queen is paying his bills then the victim will actually see the money. I would rather she get the Queens money than not be able to collect from Andrew.
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Post by pjaye on Feb 16, 2022 3:38:25 GMT
I'd be interested in a real discussion on this topic - but it's not going to be possible here, so I'm not even going to try. It's going to be derailed by a handful of hysterics who have lost all ability to think rationally on this subject.
Thanks to those who explained how civil trials work, that's not something I'm familiar with.
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Post by mollycoddle on Feb 16, 2022 4:05:49 GMT
The only reason I am semi-OK with it is because Andrew is reportedly almost broke. Hopefully if the Queen is paying his bills then the victim will actually see the money. I would rather she get the Queens money than not be able to collect from Andrew. I *think* that I recently read that he sold a piece of property. I don’t remember where, but it wasn’t in England.
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Post by zima on Feb 16, 2022 4:12:54 GMT
I *think* that I recently read that he sold a piece of property. I don’t remember where, but it wasn’t in England. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/15/prince-andrew-settlement-virginia-giuffre-raises-many-questions-but-answers-noneFrom that link: "News of the Duke of York’s settlement was met with silence by Buckingham Palace. There was no official comment from the Queen, who just last month sought to distance the monarchy as an institution from the fallout over her second son’s legal woes.... Yet he is the Queen’s son. In the three years since Giuffre dropped her legal bombshell, the Queen has made clear her support through her actions. Andrew has been invited to Balmoral. The Queen allowed him to play a prominent part in the public tributes to the Duke of Edinburgh after his death last April. She and Andrew have been riding together. And it is possible we will see him during her platinum jubilee celebrations in June, as a member of her family. Andrew now faces paying a hefty bill in legal costs and an undisclosed sum that could run into millions. One unconfirmed report put it at £7.5m, while lawyers said it could exceed £10m. It is not known if the Queen, who supported Andrew’s royal work from the private income she receives from the Duchy of Lancaster estate, will be contributing to his costs and settlement. Andrew recently sold a Swiss ski chalet that he bought in 2014 with his ex-wife Sarah Ferguson for a reported £18m."
PS - The BBC couldn't even wait 24 hours before starting the rehabilitation tour PR.
Is there any way back for Prince Andrew?
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Post by mom on Feb 16, 2022 4:13:14 GMT
The only reason I am semi-OK with it is because Andrew is reportedly almost broke. Hopefully if the Queen is paying his bills then the victim will actually see the money. I would rather she get the Queens money than not be able to collect from Andrew. I *think* that I recently read that he sold a piece of property. I don’t remember where, but it wasn’t in England. According to this (and who knows if its really true), he sold a Swiss home to pay off his debt to the owner. So he should have made some off of that sale, but it was his last personal property. pagesix.com/2021/09/27/prince-andrew-to-sell-swiss-property-to-settle-ongoing-lawsuit/
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Post by zima on Feb 16, 2022 4:30:32 GMT
As a victim/survivor of child sexual abuse I don't blame her at all for settling. I'm very sorry. I'm glad you are here and a survivor!
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SuPeaNatural
Full Member
AUSTRALIA
Posts: 424
Jun 27, 2014 8:49:11 GMT
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Post by SuPeaNatural on Feb 16, 2022 9:24:08 GMT
Oh we couldn't have the Queen's party ruined by her son's rape of a teenager. That would be so very unfortunate. Let's just sweep that right under the rug so he can join the party. You got it in one Darcy Collins.
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Post by hop2 on Feb 16, 2022 13:23:31 GMT
I'm disappointed that he agreed to settle and not continue to clear his name. I'm surprised she agreed to it though when she has always said it wasn't about the money but his admission that he had actually sexual assaulted her. I guess in the end the lure of the money was more attractive than getting to the truth. She knows the truth. She does not owe anyone else that truth. Her accusations were public anyone can take that and form their own opinion about him one way or the other. As the victim she gets to decide wether she wants her day in court or not. If she received enough money to move on, that’s her right to accept that and move on. I hope she got oodles & oodles of money from him. I know what my opinion is of him.
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Post by zima on Feb 16, 2022 13:24:36 GMT
Telegraph says his mom will help pay settlement costs. "However, The Telegraph understands the total amount that will go to Ms Giuffre and her charity exceeds £12 million. The Queen has already privately funded the Duke's legal fight to the tune of millions of pounds and will now partly fund the settlement in order to allow her son – and the entire Royal family – to draw a line under the case that had threatened to overshadow her Platinum Jubilee year." Also "He will keep his dukedom and the Windsor home, Royal Lodge, that he shares with his former wife the Duchess of York. On March 29, he will appear in public alongside his mother and the rest of the Royal family for a service of thanksgiving for the Duke of Edinburgh at Westminster Abbey. However, he is not expected to take part in any further public events or celebrations linked to the Jubilee for the rest of the year after being advised to stay out of the public eye. A source close to his team said: "It has been made clear that the public have heard enough about him and enough from him. They need to hear no more." When he was forced to abandon his patronages, not a single charity or organisation expressed a desire to continue working with him. "How could he have any public role when no one wants to be associated with him?" the source added." www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2022/02/15/queen-help-pay-12m-prince-andrew-settlement/"I never met her." "I don’t remember the photograph. It may have been photoshopped" "I was at a Pizza Express in Woking." "I can’t sweat." "I demand a trial by jury to prove my innocence vs. offering a settlement." "OK, here’s a big pile of money."
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Post by giatocj on Feb 16, 2022 19:10:27 GMT
I'm disappointed that he agreed to settle and not continue to clear his name. I'm surprised she agreed to it though when she has always said it wasn't about the money but his admission that he had actually sexual assaulted her. I guess in the end the lure of the money was more attractive than getting to the truth. Clear his name???!!! What rock are you living under. And nice victim shaming - I expect nothing less from you. Randy Andy - your potential king - yeah - the problem here is her lure of money - his raping teenagers is just fine. This was pretty much my reaction, too. The victim shaming in that post is sickening. Actually, the entire post is.
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Post by katiejane on Feb 16, 2022 20:14:06 GMT
I was disappointed that it didn't go to criminal case. There is no outcome that goes one way or another. He keeps his denial of wrong doing other than he should of picked better friends and a she comes away with money. I dont know if the criminal threshold was not able to be met. But it feels like he has walked away clear. His apology is all about choosing better friends, rather that he was guilty of assaulting her. Whereas she appears to have financially gained. I dont know how civil cases and payouts are viewed in USA. But I worry it looks like she was focussed on the money and people will see that rather than guilt elsewhere.
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Post by 16joy on Feb 17, 2022 0:31:31 GMT
He can still be charged criminally. He will always have that hanging over his head.
Would Andrew willingly settle for millions if he feels like he is innocent of the claims? You’re a grown man and reportedly have your 96 year old mother pick up part of the tab with the settlement. If I was innocent, I’d try to clear my name in open court for anyone to see/read/hear. Clearly, he doesn’t want to go to court. Doesn’t that make you wonder why he doesn’t or can’t clear his name?
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Post by KiwiJo on Feb 17, 2022 1:19:14 GMT
🎵 🎶 🎵 🎶
The grand old Duke of York, he had 12 million quid. He gave it to someone he never met, for something he never did.
🎶 🎵 🎶 🎵
(This was on twitter but I don’t know how to post a picture/screenshot, so I just copied the text)
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Post by mom on Feb 17, 2022 1:20:32 GMT
I was disappointed that it didn't go to criminal case. There is no outcome that goes one way or another. He keeps his denial of wrong doing other than he should of picked better friends and a she comes away with money. I dont know if the criminal threshold was not able to be met. But it feels like he has walked away clear. His apology is all about choosing better friends, rather that he was guilty of assaulting her. Whereas she appears to have financially gained. I dont know how civil cases and payouts are viewed in USA. But I worry it looks like she was focussed on the money and people will see that rather than guilt elsewhere. To be fair, I don't know of anyone who would willing admit to being guilty of assaulting someone when there's a chance he could still be charged criminally. Do I think he's guilty? Yes. But in his shoes, I would probably say the bare minimal as well.
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Post by sabrinae on Feb 17, 2022 1:35:57 GMT
I was disappointed that it didn't go to criminal case. There is no outcome that goes one way or another. He keeps his denial of wrong doing other than he should of picked better friends and a she comes away with money. I dont know if the criminal threshold was not able to be met. But it feels like he has walked away clear. His apology is all about choosing better friends, rather that he was guilty of assaulting her. Whereas she appears to have financially gained. I dont know how civil cases and payouts are viewed in USA. But I worry it looks like she was focussed on the money and people will see that rather than guilt elsewhere. That statement went pretty far toward an admission for a settlement statement. Generally, civil settlement statements contain explicit language that the settlement isn’t an admission of gilt and that no fault attaches. Acknowledging that she was victimized and his association with Epstein and acknowledging that he had demeaned her falsely are big admissions.
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Post by katiejane on Feb 17, 2022 7:08:38 GMT
He can still be charged criminally. He will always have that hanging over his head. Would Andrew willingly settle for millions if he feels like he is innocent of the claims? You’re a grown man and reportedly have your 96 year old mother pick up part of the tab with the settlement. If I was innocent, I’d try to clear my name in open court for anyone to see/read/hear. Clearly, he doesn’t want to go to court. Doesn’t that make you wonder why he doesn’t or can’t clear his name? OK, I can see that if you cannot file a criminal case, you have to choose the civil route. Am I right in thinking if it had gone before the judge and jury there would of been a judgement and financial settlement would of been decided by the court? In hindsight it would make sense that no one wants to provide evidence that would help make a case meet criminal threshold, so statements will be minimal.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Feb 17, 2022 8:18:07 GMT
All we know is both of these people had a choice to make and what choice each of them made. Full stop. Of course, it’s always tempting to infer meaning from those choices. You’ve inferred that he is an innocent man who should have prevailed to clear his name and that she is motivated by money, not truth. Others might infer something totally different. Bottom line: none of us is privvy to the considerations, legal recommendations and What If’s that went into these two people’s decisions - or what it says about their characters. We just know what they chose. I've never suggested that he actually is innocent and she herself has made it known it wasn't about the money but the truth. What was it that changed her mind? None of us know that he is innocent or in fact guilty of anything except being friends with JP. He along with many many others, some of whom we know of and there must have been hundreds of other that are unknown but all were also friends and associates of JP. That is the problem when someone settles out of court, no one knows who is telling the truth or the reason they have truly settled - that goes for both parties. I just don't believe in a trial and conviction by the court of public opinion who are not privy to any of the facts. That goes for a prince or a pauper. I only hope that non of the people that express so strongly his guilt, with no proof, are not faced with a similar situation happening to any of the men in their lives where they are face with being guilty without evidence or a trial. Leaving aside this particular case to cover such matters generally. I don't dispute that we must listen to women and investigate all allegations but we must also be very careful that we don't ruin innocent men's lives in the process. Not all women who make allegations do so truthfully. We as a society must be careful not to take the stance that the woman must be telling the truth at all cost and the man must be guilty on her say so. The court of public opinion has ruined many a man's life. -I misunderstood. As you were disappointed in him not clearing his name, I thought you meant you believed he COULD clear his name. -What was it that changed her mind? Dunno. That’s why I wrote that all we know is what we know and what we don’t know could be very complex. -I’m always rather twitchy about any narrative that quantifies false-accusations/men’s-ruined-lives in large terms. Are false accusations impossible? Of course not. But lordy, molestations loom large. And non-reporting looms large. And as noted upthread, the true v. false accusation disproportion looms large and lopsided. No room for any more larges. Too many larges don’t add up.
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Deleted
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Oct 7, 2024 15:25:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2022 10:23:52 GMT
I've never suggested that he actually is innocent and she herself has made it known it wasn't about the money but the truth. What was it that changed her mind? None of us know that he is innocent or in fact guilty of anything except being friends with JP. He along with many many others, some of whom we know of and there must have been hundreds of other that are unknown but all were also friends and associates of JP. That is the problem when someone settles out of court, no one knows who is telling the truth or the reason they have truly settled - that goes for both parties. I just don't believe in a trial and conviction by the court of public opinion who are not privy to any of the facts. That goes for a prince or a pauper. I only hope that non of the people that express so strongly his guilt, with no proof, are not faced with a similar situation happening to any of the men in their lives where they are face with being guilty without evidence or a trial. Leaving aside this particular case to cover such matters generally. I don't dispute that we must listen to women and investigate all allegations but we must also be very careful that we don't ruin innocent men's lives in the process. Not all women who make allegations do so truthfully. We as a society must be careful not to take the stance that the woman must be telling the truth at all cost and the man must be guilty on her say so. The court of public opinion has ruined many a man's life. -I misunderstood. As you were disappointed in him not clearing his name, I thought you meant you believed he COULD clear his name.
-What was it that changed her mind? Dunno. That’s why I wrote that all we know is what we know and what we don’t know could be very complex. -I’m always rather twitchy about any narrative that quantifies false-accusations/men’s-ruined-lives in large terms. Are false accusations impossible? Of course not. But lordy, molestations loom large. And non-reporting looms large. And as noted upthread, the true v. false accusation disproportion looms large and lopsided. No room for any more larges. Too many larges don’t add up. No no. I was disappointed that he didn't continue to a jury where more evidence would have been provided from both sides rather than how it is at the moment as a "she said he said" with pure speculation as to the reason that this was settled when this jury option was available to both of them. Contrary to what some on this thread thinks, that isn't victim shaming nor is it that I think PA is innocent. Non of us know whether he is guilty or not, we have no evidence to back it up. But taking the civil action further could have possibly cleared the doubt and a criminal case would have been even better. Why is it that he hasn't been charged with a criminal offence of statutory rape in the US? There is no reason because he is a member of the Royal family for him not to be charged, he isn't above the law. To call anyone a rapist or a paedophile ( whatever PM has done he isn't a paedophile) with no evidence to back it up is just as abhorrent as to victim shaming that some are accusing me of. I've never denied that she has been a victim of sexual abuse or trafficking by Epstein. Whilst I agree that there are too many that go unreported and the reasons for not doing so, it still doesn't excuse the fact that because the numbers are much smaller the accused doesn't deserve justice ( and this has nothing to do with PA but people in general) in exactly the same way as the victim is entitled to it. We must also not lose sight of the fact that this non reporting isn't unique to women. It is just as high in men being raped/sexually abused by men, yet no one is particularly bothered about that. To accept the word of one and not the other without evidence isn't justice for either party. Another note on the settlement. It's pure speculation of how much the settlement was and who will pay the money. For people to speculate that it will be paid by the taxpayer is just simply ridiculous. The expenditure of the sovereign grant is independently audited every year and is publicly available. I think we would notice if a few million pounds went missing without a valid accountability. As for the Queen paying any of the settlement or the legal fees then so what. I'm sure thousands of parents have settles legal fees on behalf of their children. What the Queen does with her own money has nothing to do with anyone else, it doesn't come out of my pocket.
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Deleted
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Oct 7, 2024 15:25:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2022 10:42:35 GMT
You must know how under reported sexual assaults are in our world, in a big part because of attitudes like this. We as a society must be careful that we don't continue to let men, especially white men from good families, get away with criminal behavior for fear of ruining their lives. Yes, I have a son and nephews, a father, brother and husband. ETA You all know someone who has been sexually assaulted, you just may not be seen by them as an ally or someone they can confide in without worry of being judged. But you all know at least one person, very likely more than one. Thank you. Truly - people are so ignorant of the reality of sexual assault. Millions are unreported because they can't face the judgement. This is an extreme case and pisses me off, but in reality you don't need to be royalty to get away with raping a teenager - it happens every single day. Have you asked yourself who's fault is that? It might be a better idea to start teaching your ( general ) sons to have more respect for women. Those sons grow up to be men eventually. Stop teaching them to be macho and entitled children/teenagers and bring them up as decent. respectful members of society who treat women as their equal.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 17, 2022 16:05:24 GMT
Thank you. Truly - people are so ignorant of the reality of sexual assault. Millions are unreported because they can't face the judgement. This is an extreme case and pisses me off, but in reality you don't need to be royalty to get away with raping a teenager - it happens every single day. Have you asked yourself who's fault is that? It might be a better idea to start teaching your ( general ) sons to have more respect for women. Those sons grow up to be men eventually. Stop teaching them to be macho and entitled children/teenagers and bring them up as decent. respectful members of society who treat women as their equal. So not worth it - stop victim blaming - I have no idea why Randy Andy grew up to believe he could do whatever he wanted and people would continue to support him - oh wait - I do know - do a little reflecting on why you are so very invested in not acknowledging his behavior - complete with mommy spending millions of pounds which anyway you want to spin it came from citizens of the UK.
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Deleted
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Oct 7, 2024 15:25:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2022 17:50:05 GMT
Have you asked yourself who's fault is that? It might be a better idea to start teaching your ( general ) sons to have more respect for women. Those sons grow up to be men eventually. Stop teaching them to be macho and entitled children/teenagers and bring them up as decent. respectful members of society who treat women as their equal. So not worth it - stop victim blaming - I have no idea why Randy Andy grew up to believe he could do whatever he wanted and people would continue to support him - oh wait - I do know - do a little reflecting on why you are so very invested in not acknowledging his behavior - complete with mommy spending millions of pounds which anyway you want to spin it came from citizens of the UK. Not worth teaching sons to be respectful members of society and that women are their equal and to be taught from an early age by example? Well we know how you stand then don't we. And once again you are ignorant of facts regarding the Queens personal financial status. In fact, you have shown time and time again that you are ignorant of all facts pertaining to the Monarchy.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 17, 2022 18:09:19 GMT
So not worth it - stop victim blaming - I have no idea why Randy Andy grew up to believe he could do whatever he wanted and people would continue to support him - oh wait - I do know - do a little reflecting on why you are so very invested in not acknowledging his behavior - complete with mommy spending millions of pounds which anyway you want to spin it came from citizens of the UK. Not worth teaching sons to be respectful members of society and that women are their equal and to be taught from an early age by example? Well we know how you stand then don't we. And once again you are ignorant of facts regarding the Queens personal financial status. In fact, you have shown time and time again that you are ignorant of all facts pertaining to the Monarchy. Oh I taught my son how to treat women - you are again supporting a rapist who has done absolutely nothing in his entire life but be born - nothing. He was given wealth and titles for nothing- and you wonder why he thought he could rape a teenager and get away with it. I understand the monarchy just fine- you do realize the entirety of their financial statements are published in a pretty color brochure - but I'm sure you've never actually looked at them. The Queen has zero money without generations and generations of inherited wealth. She has done nothing - her father has done nothing her grandfather did nothing but be born and therefore entitled to estates and wealth. None of them ever earned that - hey pay tens of millions of pounds - it's not like they were ever going to give it to their citizens.
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