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Post by aj2hall on Mar 8, 2022 15:09:52 GMT
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Post by onelasttime on Mar 8, 2022 15:28:28 GMT
I have the tv on CBS This Morning and they just showed a new poll where 72% of Americans are ok if the President bans oil from Russia even if it means higher gas prices.
I mean how can you not support the ban if it stops things like this…
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Post by cindosha on Mar 8, 2022 15:42:49 GMT
It should have already been done, so I'm not holding my breath. And he need not get it from other dictator run countries like Venezuela, Iran and Iraq. We need to start drilling again in our own country. And I don't give two craps what the progressive left thinks of it. Screw the green deal right now. We need to do what we need to supply our own country with our own energy sources. |
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Enna
Full Member
Posts: 301
Location: PNW
Jan 26, 2016 14:55:35 GMT
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Post by Enna on Mar 8, 2022 15:49:27 GMT
Wow, I had no idea Finland or Sweden weren't part of NATO. So in theory he could invade those countries, like Ukraine, and we would have to stand by and watch? Finland was not part of the USSR, but was somehow part of imperial Russia (when they had a royal family, before the revolution). But even after Finland got it’s independence as an outcome of the Russian revolution in the early 20th century Finland/Russia relations after that are long and complicated (more than I can explain - you should read about it) and include a Finnish civil war and invasion by USSR during WWII. All that to say if Finland (especially) is feeling the least bit vulnerable at this, I don’t blame them one bit, with their geopolitical history in regards to Russia. A Finn here. The history and the relationship with Russia is really complicated. Before this war a lot of Finns wanted to keep our neutrality, but things changed quickly. I don't know if we are going to join NATO quickly, but we definitely chose our side. Our president travelled to the US and met with Biden last Friday. They talked about strenghtening our defence co-operation. We have been working with US military for a long time, they train here occasionally and we are buying our new fighter jets from US. But in the end, if Russia attacks us now, we are on our own. Or relying on the help of EU (we are a member). People are worrying here. Most think that no way Russia will attack us because numerous reasons. We weren't a part of USSR, and we don't have similar ties to Russia than Ukraine for example has. But still. People are looking to find out where the closest bomb shelter is. Finding out their role in military. Renewing passports in case they need to leave the country. For me it still feels like a bad dream. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Mar 8, 2022 15:56:40 GMT
The wind blows, the sun shines, there can be a huge energy source!
And, BTW, our oil companies are presently make HUGE profits which they could use to drill while also cutting, fuel, oil and gas prices for every one.
But we all know you will be right at the front of the line bi!ching about Biden raising the gas prices.
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Post by cindosha on Mar 8, 2022 16:19:05 GMT
The wind blows, the sun shines, there can be a huge energy source! And, BTW, our oil companies are presently make HUGE profits which they could use to drill while also cutting, fuel, oil and gas prices for every one. But we all know you will be right at the front of the line bi!ching about Biden raising the gas prices.The prices wouldn't be rising this high if we had our own fuel sources. Nice assumption about me though.... |
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Post by lucyg on Mar 8, 2022 16:42:59 GMT
The wind blows, the sun shines, there can be a huge energy source! And, BTW, our oil companies are presently make HUGE profits which they could use to drill while also cutting, fuel, oil and gas prices for every one. But we all know you will be right at the front of the line bi!ching about Biden raising the gas prices.The prices wouldn't be rising this high if we had our own fuel sources. Nice assumption about me though.... How do you figure? The oil companies are making record profits at the moment. Apparently outsourcing oil isn’t really the problem. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Mar 8, 2022 16:45:08 GMT
The prices wouldn't be rising this high if we had our own fuel sources. Nice assumption about me though.... Hiw do you figure? The oil companies are making record profits at the moment. Apparently outsourcing oil isn’t really the problem. I was just coming back to say, the prices have already risen ONLY for greater profits!! Oh, and Manchin jumped right on it! |
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by lizacreates on Mar 8, 2022 16:51:08 GMT
I have the tv on CBS This Morning and they just showed a new poll where 72% of Americans are ok if the President bans oil from Russia even if it means higher gas prices. I mean how can you not support the ban if it stops things like this… We’re looking for deals with two other devils in rogue countries to replace a deal we have with one devil. This US ban does nothing to Putin. We’re not Europe that imports massive amounts of oil from him. All we’ll be hurting is American people and American businesses. That’s why I’m against it. And why I think it would be irresponsible to implement an embargo without first securing reliable sourcing to offset the loss. This will only truly hurt Putin if our European allies do the same, and the majority of them cannot because of their high dependence on Russian oil and gas. Your incorporating of this stance to absence of compassion to Ukrainians is stupefying. Not everything is as black-and-white as you prefer. |
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pinklady
Drama Llama
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Post by pinklady on Mar 8, 2022 16:53:51 GMT
The prices wouldn't be rising this high if we had our own fuel sources. Nice assumption about me though.... Oh the ignorance! My god we are doomed! |
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Post by Bridget in MD on Mar 8, 2022 17:12:09 GMT
Not with troops on the ground there wouldn't be . The EU doesn't work that way. Every member country is autonomous as far as their country's military and their country's defence is concerned. It's only as members of NATO they could come to the defence of each other. Sweden in a neutral country. There are absolutely grounds for active help and such help would be mandatory. It's called the mutual defense clause and dates back to the Treaty of Lisbon. ( x) If Putin invades an EU country, all other EU countries are obligated to come to its assistance immediately, period. That would mean moving troops from France, Spain, Germany and elsewhere to wherever it's needed. I am so glad to hear this!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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twinsmomfla99
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on Mar 8, 2022 17:17:55 GMT
It should have already been done, so I'm not holding my breath. And he need not get it from other dictator run countries like Venezuela, Iran and Iraq. We need to start drilling again in our own country. And I don't give two craps what the progressive left thinks of it. Screw the green deal right now. We need to do what we need to supply our own country with our own energy sources. No one is stopping drilling in the US right now. Biden paused issuing any new permits on federal lands, but that will only result in a gradual reduction of drilling over time, and it will be years before any impact is felt, and then only if no new permits are ever issued again. It does not affect permits already issued (and Biden issued more in his first year than trump did--3557 to 2658). The much bally-hooed Keystone pipeline didn't have anything to do with oil production, so cancelling it did not reduce production. The purpose of that pipeline was to transport Canadian oil to the gulf refineries, and once there, it could be sold to ANYONE, not just the United States. The pipeline was to provide a perhaps more efficient way to transport Canadian oil that is already being transported now by rail. There is no guarantee that Canada even had capacity in that area to produce as much oil as the pipeline could carry. In any event, it wasn't projected to be completed for several years, so it has ZERO effect on U.S. oil supply today. So basically, there is no evidence that "progressives" have negatively impacted the current oil supply. Who has affected it? OPEC and U.S. oil companies. OPEC was in control during COVID, and between OPEC and Russian oil production coupled with drastically reduced demand, the prices were so low that many U.S. producers had to halt production because they were operating at a loss. Now that demand has increased, and especially with a more limited supply if we ban Russian imports, the oil companies can get back to full production. If they do, they have the capacity to produce up to 900,000 barrels per day, which more than offsets the 200,000 barrels of crude per day we were getting from Russia. Last year, the oil and refined products from Russia only accounted for about 8% of our total imports. Getting U.S. producers back to full capacity (which can happen fairly quickly) will make up for the Russian ban. |
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by lizacreates on Mar 8, 2022 17:20:50 GMT
It's no secret I’m a Pelosi admirer, but this is a godawful idea. I can’t even believe my senator is supporting this. The US is not dependent on Russian crude oil but we still import anywhere from 3%-5% to meet our needs. We don’t have any other source at the moment to offset this loss if an embargo is implemented now. Working people and the poor in the US are already being squeezed tight with the double whammy of inflation and high gas prices. This will exacerbate the situation. We can use our reserves but our own gov’t reports our reserves have decreased. Where can we source? One of Canada’s ministers said their country is maxed out; they cannot export any more than what they’re already doing. OPEC (i.e., Saudi Arabia) is refusing to up production. The US is now talking to Maduro to determine if we can get it from Venezuela. What would be the motivation of Maduro who is an ally of Putin, and whom we sanctioned, to fulfill this? (Not to mention it’s virtually impossible for Europe to do same as they are heavily dependent on Russian gas and oil and they have more or less only a 3-month reserve.) And is this really going to hurt Putin when he can easily sell to China if the West institutes embargoes? Who’s really likely to suffer from this—Putin or the West? At least wait until we can reliably source from somewhere else before doing this. I'm surprised there hasn't been more pressure on Saudi Arabia quite frankly. They're essentially supporting Russia and there's been barely a peep in the media about it. What pressure can anybody exert on Saudi Arabia? Petrostates are not beholden to anyone because they have the oil and gas the rest of the world needs. They couldn't care less about US or European media. |
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Post by Bridget in MD on Mar 8, 2022 17:22:03 GMT
Finland was not part of the USSR, but was somehow part of imperial Russia (when they had a royal family, before the revolution). But even after Finland got it’s independence as an outcome of the Russian revolution in the early 20th century Finland/Russia relations after that are long and complicated (more than I can explain - you should read about it) and include a Finnish civil war and invasion by USSR during WWII. All that to say if Finland (especially) is feeling the least bit vulnerable at this, I don’t blame them one bit, with their geopolitical history in regards to Russia. A Finn here. The history and the relationship with Russia is really complicated. Before this war a lot of Finns wanted to keep our neutrality, but things changed quickly. I don't know if we are going to join NATO quickly, but we definitely chose our side. Our president travelled to the US and met with Biden last Friday. They talked about strenghtening our defence co-operation. We have been working with US military for a long time, they train here occasionally and we are buying our new fighter jets from US. But in the end, if Russia attacks us now, we are on our own. Or relying on the help of EU (we are a member). People are worrying here. Most think that no way Russia will attack us because numerous reasons. We weren't a part of USSR, and we don't have similar ties to Russia than Ukraine for example has. But still. People are looking to find out where the closest bomb shelter is. Finding out their role in military. Renewing passports in case they need to leave the country. For me it still feels like a bad dream. I have a friend in Sweden and should reach out. I am sorry you are so worried. I actually had a dream the other night (because I watched a tiktok about surviving a nuclear attack and what one should do) that I was trying to get iodine pills to my daughter who is going to college about 10 miles away from Washington DC.  |
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Post by cindosha on Mar 8, 2022 17:47:47 GMT
The prices wouldn't be rising this high if we had our own fuel sources. Nice assumption about me though.... ! Oh, yes we are and have been since January!!! |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
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Post by sassyangel on Mar 8, 2022 17:51:55 GMT
The prices wouldn't be rising this high if we had our own fuel sources. Nice assumption about me though.... How do you figure? The oil companies are making record profits at the moment. Apparently outsourcing oil isn’t really the problem. And *here* is the case study in “ignorant people don’t blame oil companies for anything” we could do without. |
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Post by onelasttime on Mar 8, 2022 17:53:53 GMT
The wind blows, the sun shines, there can be a huge energy source! And, BTW, our oil companies are presently make HUGE profits which they could use to drill while also cutting, fuel, oil and gas prices for every one. But we all know you will be right at the front of the line bi!ching about Biden raising the gas prices.The prices wouldn't be rising this high if we had our own fuel sources. Nice assumption about me though.... You are right and that makes the strong case to move to EV’s sooner rather then later. I have been saying since the oil embargo of the 1970’s we need to make ourselves energy independent and we now have the technology to do so. So let’s get cracking instead of making up the excuses and pandering to big oil & gas. |
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Post by onelasttime on Mar 8, 2022 18:02:45 GMT
I have the tv on CBS This Morning and they just showed a new poll where 72% of Americans are ok if the President bans oil from Russia even if it means higher gas prices. I mean how can you not support the ban if it stops things like this… We’re looking for deals with two other devils in rogue countries to replace a deal we have with one devil. This US ban does nothing to Putin. We’re not Europe that imports massive amounts of oil from him. All we’ll be hurting is American people and American businesses. That’s why I’m against it. And why I think it would be irresponsible to implement an embargo without first securing reliable sourcing to offset the loss. This will only truly hurt Putin if our European allies do the same, and the majority of them cannot because of their high dependence on Russian oil and gas. Your incorporating of this stance to absence of compassion to Ukrainians is stupefying. Not everything is as black-and-white as you prefer. Actually it is black & white in this case. If you chose not to see it. 🤷🏻♀️ |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
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Post by sassyangel on Mar 8, 2022 18:10:08 GMT
Finland was not part of the USSR, but was somehow part of imperial Russia (when they had a royal family, before the revolution). But even after Finland got it’s independence as an outcome of the Russian revolution in the early 20th century Finland/Russia relations after that are long and complicated (more than I can explain - you should read about it) and include a Finnish civil war and invasion by USSR during WWII. All that to say if Finland (especially) is feeling the least bit vulnerable at this, I don’t blame them one bit, with their geopolitical history in regards to Russia. A Finn here. The history and the relationship with Russia is really complicated. Before this war a lot of Finns wanted to keep our neutrality, but things changed quickly. I don't know if we are going to join NATO quickly, but we definitely chose our side. Our president travelled to the US and met with Biden last Friday. They talked about strenghtening our defence co-operation. We have been working with US military for a long time, they train here occasionally and we are buying our new fighter jets from US. But in the end, if Russia attacks us now, we are on our own. Or relying on the help of EU (we are a member). People are worrying here. Most think that no way Russia will attack us because numerous reasons. We weren't a part of USSR, and we don't have similar ties to Russia than Ukraine for example has. But still. People are looking to find out where the closest bomb shelter is. Finding out their role in military. Renewing passports in case they need to leave the country. For me it still feels like a bad dream. Absolutely, it is *very* complicated, i felt like saying it was complicated was almost an understatement. Those were just the three historical things I could remember that occurred, with any certainty as to the timeline - but I know there is much more. I completely understand the strong desire for neutrality given that history, and am so sorry that, once again, the Finnish people feel vulnerable.  Russia brays in *concern* about countries bordering it, wanting to join NATO, but acts in ways that legitimately make those countries feel vulnerable. 🤷🏼♀️ |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
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Post by sassyangel on Mar 8, 2022 18:17:06 GMT
I'm surprised there hasn't been more pressure on Saudi Arabia quite frankly. They're essentially supporting Russia and there's been barely a peep in the media about it. What pressure can anybody exert on Saudi Arabia? Petrostates are not beholden to anyone because they have the oil and gas the rest of the world needs. They couldn't care less about US or European media. Gas/petroleum is a global commodity, if one or even 20 countries won’t buy it, there are plenty of others willing to do so. |
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,862
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Post by lizacreates on Mar 8, 2022 18:33:21 GMT
We’re looking for deals with two other devils in rogue countries to replace a deal we have with one devil. This US ban does nothing to Putin. We’re not Europe that imports massive amounts of oil from him. All we’ll be hurting is American people and American businesses. That’s why I’m against it. And why I think it would be irresponsible to implement an embargo without first securing reliable sourcing to offset the loss. This will only truly hurt Putin if our European allies do the same, and the majority of them cannot because of their high dependence on Russian oil and gas. Your incorporating of this stance to absence of compassion to Ukrainians is stupefying. Not everything is as black-and-white as you prefer. Actually it is black & white in this case. If you chose not to see it. 🤷🏻♀️ No, it’s not. Your understanding of how this will adversely affect the American economy and its people is obviously absent. And if you think that 5% or so of oil the US buys will make a difference to Putin who can just sell it to Asia is worth the pain it will inflict, especially on working people and the poor already strained by inflation and high gas prices, then your black-and-white spectacles have given you tunnel vision. |
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Post by onelasttime on Mar 8, 2022 18:37:21 GMT
Good…
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by lizacreates on Mar 8, 2022 18:47:47 GMT
What pressure can anybody exert on Saudi Arabia? Petrostates are not beholden to anyone because they have the oil and gas the rest of the world needs. They couldn't care less about US or European media. Gas/petroleum is a global commodity, if one or even 20 countries won’t buy it, there are plenty of others willing to do so. Of course. It’s always been that way. No country has clean hands when it comes to oil and gas. We're all hypocrites. SA, OPEC and Russia created an alliance (OPEC+) and an agreement that they will purposely cut oil production so they can have more control over the pricing of crude. In other words, they can cut when demand is high to drive up the prices. Was there anything the US or Europe or the media could do? Nothing. Remember when bin Salman had Khashoggi killed? How enraged Americans were? Did the US stop buying oil from SA? No. Did Europe? No. Around Sept or Oct last year, the two pricing benchmarks—WTI and Brent—were at $17.5 and $30/barrel. Yesterday morning, I was just curious and checked--$120 and $139/barrel. Analysts now predicting $200/barrel before year-end. So if I'm against a unilateral embargo that does nothing to really hurt Putin, it's not because I've lost my mind. |
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Post by onelasttime on Mar 8, 2022 18:49:20 GMT
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Post by beebee on Mar 8, 2022 19:03:35 GMT
Hiw do you figure? The oil companies are making record profits at the moment. Apparently outsourcing oil isn’t really the problem. I was just coming back to say, the prices have already risen ONLY for greater profits!! Oh, and Manchin jumped right on it! Just to throw this into the discussion, it is impossible to get a rig and other supplies to drill right now. And there is a huge problem getting people to work on the rigs. So many rigs were made inactive due to Covid, America not wanting to drill in shale, and other reasons. It takes lots of money and time to bring them back to use. It was this way before the Russian/Ukraine war. The rising costs are not just because oil companies want to make a big profit. Everything involved with drilling is in short supply. |
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Post by cindosha on Mar 8, 2022 19:05:41 GMT
The prices wouldn't be rising this high if we had our own fuel sources. Nice assumption about me though.... You are right and that makes the strong case to move to EV’s sooner rather then later. I have been saying since the oil embargo of the 1970’s we need to make ourselves energy independent and we now have the technology to do so. So let’s get cracking instead of making up the excuses and pandering to big oil & gas.
I agree with you about making ourselves energy independent but EV's are NOT practical for EVERYONE in the United States and we can never go completely EV like the progressives want! It may work for big cities but it will never work for rural or semi-rural areas, farmers, etc. Maybe hybrid cars but not strictly electric vehicles. |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
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Post by sassyangel on Mar 8, 2022 19:11:22 GMT
Gas/petroleum is a global commodity, if one or even 20 countries won’t buy it, there are plenty of others willing to do so. Of course. It’s always been that way. No country has clean hands when it comes to oil and gas. We're all hypocrites. SA, OPEC and Russia created an alliance (OPEC+) and an agreement that they will purposely cut oil production so they can have more control over the pricing of crude. In other words, they can cut when demand is high to drive up the prices. Was there anything the US or Europe or the media could do? Nothing. Remember when bin Salman had Khashoggi killed? How enraged Americans were? Did the US stop buying oil from SA? No. Did Europe? No. Around Sept or Oct last year, the two pricing benchmarks—WTI and Brent—were at $17.5 and $30/barrel. Yesterday morning, I was just curious and checked--$120 and $139/barrel. Analysts now predicting $200/barrel before year-end. So if I'm against a unilateral embargo that does nothing to really hurt Putin, it's not because I've lost my mind. Yes, in that WSB panel that was posted, they said as much - that the US stopping buying Russian crude will not really be something that exerts actual influence on him (because of that alliance, and how relatively little we buy) there are many other highly effective ways they have leverage. (But that on principle, they should work towards not buying it) There seems a decent likelihood they’ll lose the house, and they might lose the senate in the mid terms, so the thought of (some possibly compromised) republicans calling shots on this conflict, concerns me. It’s complicated. Im ok with personally making a sacrifice on principle, I have the luxury of being able to do so, but I know many people who this will squeeze their household budget horribly. So I’d like my principled sacrifice to be both effective and not be something that also knowingly hurts those who can least afford it, - not without exploring options first, at least. |
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Deleted
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Nov 24, 2024 14:08:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2022 19:32:00 GMT
On International Women's Day let's remember the mothers in Ukraine and those leaving with small children in tow. What would you do? What would any of us do? This is one of the great tragedies of our time. That in the year 2022, with all our great worldwide wealth and intelligence, mothers and children are still fleeing in terror away from homelands filled with the violence of war.
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Post by aj2hall on Mar 8, 2022 19:33:54 GMT
It should have already been done, so I'm not holding my breath. And he need not get it from other dictator run countries like Venezuela, Iran and Iraq. We need to start drilling again in our own country. And I don't give two craps what the progressive left thinks of it. Screw the green deal right now. We need to do what we need to supply our own country with our own energy sources. There are so many false assumptions and over simplifications in your statement, I’m not sure where to start. Russia exports less than 5% of its petroleum products to the US, so a US ban alone is ineffective. Europe buys close to 50% of its petroleum from Russia, so a US ban along with a European reduction will have an impact. And it’s not nearly as simple as just drilling again. And the green new deal might be more effective at making us energy independent. |
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,862
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Post by lizacreates on Mar 8, 2022 19:41:08 GMT
Of course. It’s always been that way. No country has clean hands when it comes to oil and gas. We're all hypocrites. SA, OPEC and Russia created an alliance (OPEC+) and an agreement that they will purposely cut oil production so they can have more control over the pricing of crude. In other words, they can cut when demand is high to drive up the prices. Was there anything the US or Europe or the media could do? Nothing. Remember when bin Salman had Khashoggi killed? How enraged Americans were? Did the US stop buying oil from SA? No. Did Europe? No. Around Sept or Oct last year, the two pricing benchmarks—WTI and Brent—were at $17.5 and $30/barrel. Yesterday morning, I was just curious and checked--$120 and $139/barrel. Analysts now predicting $200/barrel before year-end. So if I'm against a unilateral embargo that does nothing to really hurt Putin, it's not because I've lost my mind. Yes, in that WSB panel that was posted, they said as much - that the US stopping buying Russian crude will not really be something that exerts actual influence on him (because of that alliance, and how relatively little we buy) there are many other highly effective ways they have leverage. (But that on principle, they should work towards not buying it) There seems a decent likelihood they’ll lose the house, and they might lose the senate in the mid terms, so the thought of (some possibly compromised) republicans calling shots on this conflict, concerns me. It’s complicated. Im ok with personally making a sacrifice on principle, I have the luxury of being able to do so, but I know many people who this will squeeze their household budget horribly. So I’d like my principled sacrifice to be both effective and not be something that also knowingly hurts those who can least afford it, - not without exploring options first, at least. Why would Republicans care about this? Because they know that when gas prices and consumer goods go even higher because of the embargo Democrats will be blamed. It doesn’t matter how many times people here say Biden has no control over gas prices. You can turn blue in the face repeating that over and over. At the end of the day, voters equate inflation and higher gas prices to the administration in power. That’s the reality. So no one here should be in the least bit surprised when those two issues will be made front and center when the battles for the House and Senate begin. |
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