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Post by cindyupnorth on Dec 8, 2022 18:40:06 GMT
And how does anyone KNOW she brought anything into that country?? Russia lies. A lot. It's kind of what they do. I will be zero surprised if we find out she had nothing on her and it was all just a plan to get their bad guy back. I cannot fathom what negotiations are like and I think they did the right thing. We are bringing someone home from a country that openly hates gay people. And she doesn't hate America- that's so ridiculous. Right wing loonies are all in on this one. Have you read up anything on Brittney? Do you know her background?
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Post by supersoda on Dec 8, 2022 18:43:22 GMT
We’ve been following Paul Whelan’s cases since he was initially detained because we know his brother. It’s disappointing that they weren’t able to get Paul out, too, particularly on a swap for such a notoriously bad dude.
The Whelan family has been incredibly kind and gracious throughout all of this and are always very positive and supportive when any American is released from involuntarily detainment by a foreign power.
Griner’s detainment certainly made Paul’s detainment better known (I’d guess most people knew nothing about him until she was arrested), and I’m concerned that a deal involving her was Paul’s best shot at a release. I’m happy for Britney but don’t think this is good news for Paul.
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Post by birukitty on Dec 8, 2022 18:52:56 GMT
I'll put it this way:
If Brittney Griner was completely innocent and the cannabis oil was planted on her then I'm happy with the deal and I'm glad she's on her way home.
However, if she took the cannabis oil with her on the plane when she went to Russia then she broke the law and I'm not at all happy with the deal especially since a notorious arms dealer was exchanged for her.
Those are my personal feelings.
When you travel to a foreign country it is your job to find out ahead of time what is legal to bring into that country as far as medications, food ect. I do this every time I travel. Last December we went on trip to St. John USVI. While technically still part of the USA because I was getting on a plane I checked out the medical cannabis laws in the US Virgin Islands to see if I could travel with my medical marijuana or buy it there. Turned out medical marijuana had been legalized by the US Virgin Islands in 2019, but there weren't any dispensaries open on the islands yet. I decided NOT to risk flying with any medical cannabis to be completely safe legally just in case. I was going to be there for 3 weeks and I knew I risked getting lots of migraines leaving my medication behind but I also felt it was better than losing my vacation. And yes I did get a 3 day migraine.
I got home and in February the Brittney Griner case appeared in the news. I think at one time she admitted bringing the oil with her but forgot she packed it or something like that-I don't remember the exact terminology. My feelings since then have been "you did the crime, you should do the time". Now I'm unsure because as another Pea wrote "Russia lies", and we all know that is true.
And yes, I realize she is gay and Russia hates and criminalizes gay people, but my thoughts are since that is the case why the heck didn't she (if she is guilty) leave every trace of cannabis at home and not take it with her? 3rd possibility-it was in her suitcase by mistake. Maybe packed there for a previous trip, she meant 100% to take it out before the trip to Russia and missed it. We all know how stressful packing before a trip can be. If this was the case than I'm happy she's home.
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pinklady
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,922
Nov 14, 2016 23:47:03 GMT
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Post by pinklady on Dec 8, 2022 19:08:56 GMT
Griner is no stranger to Russia. She plays basketball there during the W.N.B.A. off-season. She should have known what she should have not brought in to Russia. I do think her punishment though was too harsh for the crime. But we know that some countries have very harsh punishments for drugs. I am glad she is coming home, but also torn about the swap. She did know. FULL STOP I'm willing to assume she had taken drugs into the country many times before and nothing happened so she continued to do it even though SHE KNEW it was illegal. If those drugs were "planted" her wife would have been screaming about her innocence from the beginning. I mean she had no problem whining about missing a Saturday call and placing blame on the US embassy because it was not staffed that day.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Dec 8, 2022 19:18:39 GMT
I am happy for Britney Griner and her family, but sad that they were not able to get Paul Whelan out as well. Based on what Biden said in his press conference, I understand that they tried and that at this time Russia is saying that they see Paul Whelan's case differently than Griner's. What he is accused of is much worse than what she was accused of, although I don't know that what Russia says is believable in either case. With Britney it is hard to say what the real story is regarding the oil. I know that she said she was rushing when packing and didn't realize it was there or something like that, but it is also possible that she was told that if she admitted to having it there may have been a lighter sentence. If she brought it and knew that it was illegal there, part of my thinks that is her problem and it was stupid thing to do. However, I also think that she was being used as a political pawn and given a higher sentence than others would have been.
As for Victor Bout--if he had a lot more of his sentence to serve I wouldn't agree with the trade. However, he has already served most of his sentence and I trust that the administration weighed the pros and cons and decided this was an ok trade to make.
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Post by Merge on Dec 8, 2022 19:18:53 GMT
And your expertise in this field and extensive knowledge of the situation comes from ....? Wait one second. We arn't entitled to an opinion on here anymore?? unless we are an expert? come on! Freedom of speech girl. Nope. My position is and always has been that those of us who are not experts in a highly specialized field are wise to have a look at what actual experts are saying - and consider their motivation - before spouting off opinions. But I forgot - this the board where beliefs trump expertise and always will, so ... carry on. Lots of people (not you necessarily, but lots of people) are showing their asses on this thread. Suggesting that American citizens shouldn't be brought home because you don't agree with their political beliefs is pretty disgusting.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Dec 8, 2022 19:43:56 GMT
I'll put it this way: If Brittney Griner was completely innocent and the cannabis oil was planted on her then I'm happy with the deal and I'm glad she's on her way home.
However, if she took the cannabis oil with her on the plane when she went to Russia then she broke the law and I'm not at all happy with the deal especially since a notorious arms dealer was exchanged for her. Those are my personal feelings. When you travel to a foreign country it is your job to find out ahead of time what is legal to bring into that country as far as medications, food ect. I do this every time I travel. Last December we went on trip to St. John USVI. While technically still part of the USA because I was getting on a plane I checked out the medical cannabis laws in the US Virgin Islands to see if I could travel with my medical marijuana or buy it there. Turned out medical marijuana had been legalized by the US Virgin Islands in 2019, but there weren't any dispensaries open on the islands yet. I decided NOT to risk flying with any medical cannabis to be completely safe legally just in case. I was going to be there for 3 weeks and I knew I risked getting lots of migraines leaving my medication behind but I also felt it was better than losing my vacation. And yes I did get a 3 day migraine. I got home and in February the Brittney Griner case appeared in the news. I think at one time she admitted bringing the oil with her but forgot she packed it or something like that-I don't remember the exact terminology. My feelings since then have been "you did the crime, you should do the time". Now I'm unsure because as another Pea wrote "Russia lies", and we all know that is true. And yes, I realize she is gay and Russia hates and criminalizes gay people, but my thoughts are since that is the case why the heck didn't she (if she is guilty) leave every trace of cannabis at home and not take it with her? 3rd possibility-it was in her suitcase by mistake. Maybe packed there for a previous trip, she meant 100% to take it out before the trip to Russia and missed it. We all know how stressful packing before a trip can be. If this was the case than I'm happy she's home. I am sure the US didn't have a lot of options. I'm disappointed tho they used a big pawn (Bout) for BG. She admitted to packing it even if she forgot or didn't think it was enough to matter. Like Birukitty said, she was going to RUSSIA - one of the places where I personally would mind my Ps & Qs bc even being a "celeb" isn't going to get you anywhere, except maybe Russia will see you as more "valuable" to use as a pawn.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Dec 8, 2022 19:49:42 GMT
Alexander Vindman Keep in mind also that Bout had apparently served 10 years of his 13 year sentence. It's not like he was going to sit in our prison system indefinitely. I didn't realize this. I still think the trade is lopsided (someone who brought/used drugs (oil) vs an arms dealer) and I still wish something could have been done for Whelan.
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Post by mom on Dec 8, 2022 19:56:04 GMT
Wait one second. We arn't entitled to an opinion on here anymore?? unless we are an expert? come on! Freedom of speech girl. Nope. My position is and always has been that those of us who are not experts in a highly specialized field are wise to have a look at what actual experts are saying - and consider their motivation - before spouting off opinions. But I forgot - this the board where beliefs trump expertise and always will, so ... carry on. Lots of people (not you necessarily, but lots of people) are showing their asses on this thread. Suggesting that American citizens shouldn't be brought home because you don't agree with their political beliefs is pretty disgusting.Not to get in a pissing match with you, but who (besides our resident Trump supporter) is insinuating she shouldn't have been brought home because they dont agree with her politics? What I am reading is that people are taking Griner at her word when she said she had the drugs and that if you break a law in another country then you should accept their punishment.
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Post by cindosha on Dec 8, 2022 19:59:51 GMT
And your expertise in this field and extensive knowledge of the situation comes from ....? Wait one second. We arn't entitled to an opinion on here anymore?? unless we are an expert? come on! Freedom of speech girl. Hahahaha!!! Don't you know that the answer to that question is a big fat no??? Nobody is entitled to an opinion except the bullies here.
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oh yvonne
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,062
Jun 26, 2014 0:45:23 GMT
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Post by oh yvonne on Dec 8, 2022 20:03:56 GMT
From what I read a while back ago Brittney was considered a celebrity to the Russians and was given lots of perks due to her connections. They said that she never had to even really go through much of a security check because of who she was/with.
Then the rug got pulled out from under her when they needed to use her as a pawn. I'm thinking that is probably more the truth than anything else.
It's just awful and the only ray of light in this whole thing is that she is safe at home again, with her family and loved ones. I'm sure she'll have some awful PTSD and her life will never be the same. For a mistake in trusting her employers.
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Post by hopemax on Dec 8, 2022 20:09:23 GMT
My first thought was this is a good thing.
My second thought is there are a lot of people out there giving legitimacy to Russia's "justice" system. You are not fighting on the side of justice if you demand people fulfil the terms of an unfair system. Doubly so, if you don't like the person involved.
Also, I've seen lots of varying reports of Bout's sentence and remainder. He was convicted of a 25 year term. The Federal Bureau of Prisons had his release scheduled for August 2029. Every day closer to that date his "value" becomes less and less. There is no outcome where "The Merchant of Death" stays locked up forever. This way he's forced to go back to Russia and deal with whatever awaits him. People seem to assume it's good things, but someone took over his role when he was arrested, and they won't want him having any ideas about getting back in the game. The alternative is that in 7 years, he goes to a place of his choosing, surrounded by people of his choosing. That's a scarier proposition to me than this. He may not be in a US prison, but I am not sure he is free.
Sausage-making *is* disgusting. Which is one my life philosophies for the "big" stuff is there is no "correct" move, there is only avoiding the fatal one. Sometimes there are no good options. Sometimes what seems like the ideal move, just leads you into a corner full of bad outcomes. Sometimes you have to make a less than ideal choice now, because 5 moves later you will have more non-fatal options still available. Russia needs to be willing to negotiate to end the war in Ukraine, to get back on the non-nuclear proliferation train. To accomplish that, this moves does not seem fatal. It seems like it would keep Russia at the negotiating table. I don't think they are getting as much as people think for what they gave up. Having Ms. Griner as a hostage for 9 years would have been a pretty useful propaganda tool.
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Post by teacherlisa on Dec 8, 2022 20:14:04 GMT
I too, am glad she is coming home. I do have concerns however about the swap. I think that it sets a precedent that could make traveling to other countries dangerous. Countries may see this "deal" as a way to get people back that are in our custody. IDK I am possibly overthinking the situation, it just concerns me a bit.
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Post by MichyM on Dec 8, 2022 20:19:20 GMT
Like many of you, I am torn.
IMHO she was an absolute idiot and arrogant to think that she could take weed (even in vape form) into ANY foreign country, let alone Russia. And yes, I totally get why she played BB in Russia. But come on, don't bring your drugs with you. I do not believe for a minute that they were in her luggage by mistake.
I hate that she was used as a political pawn.
I am glad that she's on her way home.
I hate that we gave up a really bad guy for someone who did something so idiotic.
If it was a matter of a one for one swap, I personally think Whelan should have been the one sent home.
I hope Griner realizes what her idiotic decision cost this country. Not just in dollars and cents (which is not unsubstantial), but what it did for us politically.
I really hope that Whelan is released soon. And I really hope that US citizens refrain from visiting, working, and all other things in Russia.
Honestly, I am so incredibly angry with her and her idiotic decision.
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Post by cindyupnorth on Dec 8, 2022 20:21:13 GMT
Alexander Vindman Keep in mind also that Bout had apparently served 10 years of his 13 year sentence. It's not like he was going to sit in our prison system indefinitely. I didn't realize this. I still think the trade is lopsided (someone who brought/used drugs (oil) vs an arms dealer) and I still wish something could have been done for Whelan. He was sentenced in 2011 to 25!years.
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Post by Merge on Dec 8, 2022 20:28:10 GMT
Nope. My position is and always has been that those of us who are not experts in a highly specialized field are wise to have a look at what actual experts are saying - and consider their motivation - before spouting off opinions. But I forgot - this the board where beliefs trump expertise and always will, so ... carry on. Lots of people (not you necessarily, but lots of people) are showing their asses on this thread. Suggesting that American citizens shouldn't be brought home because you don't agree with their political beliefs is pretty disgusting.Not to get in a pissing match with you, but who (besides our resident Trump supporter) is insinuating she shouldn't have been brought home because they dont agree with her politics? What I am reading is that people are taking Griner at her word when she said she had the drugs and that if you break a law in another country then you should accept their punishment. Yes, only one person said that as I recall. It was just an example. I guess my question for the rest is - if a pretty, blonde American woman visiting a conservative Arab country was caught in what appeared to be an act of adultery and sentenced to death by stoning, would everyone be so on board with “she did the crime, let her take the punishment?” I think most of us recognize that some other country’s laws or punishments amount to human rights violations, and that we have some obligation to see that our citizens don’t have their rights violated abroad because some dictator wants to make a point.
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Post by mom on Dec 8, 2022 20:29:55 GMT
I didn't realize this. I still think the trade is lopsided (someone who brought/used drugs (oil) vs an arms dealer) and I still wish something could have been done for Whelan. He was sentenced in 2011 to 25!years. Yeah Im not sure where the 13 year sentence is coming from. He got 25 years in 2011.
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Post by mcjunkin on Dec 8, 2022 20:30:06 GMT
Like many of you, I am torn. IMHO she was an absolute idiot and arrogant to think that she could take weed (even in vape form) into ANY foreign country, let alone Russia. And yes, I totally get why she played BB in Russia. But come on, don't bring your drugs with you. I do not believe for a minute that they were in her luggage by mistake. I hate that she was used as a political pawn. I am glad that she's on her way home. I hate that we gave up a really bad guy for someone who did something so idiotic. If it was a matter of a one for one swap, I personally think Whelan should have been the one sent home. I hope Griner realizes what her idiotic decision cost this country. Not just in dollars and cents (which is not unsubstantial), but what it did for us politically. I really hope that Whelan is released soon. And I really hope that US citizens refrain from visiting, working, and all other things in Russia. Honestly, I am so incredibly angry with her and her idiotic decision. I hope she realizes what her idiotic decision will ultimately cost other people when the arms dealer is back to dealing arms. Potential lost lives. IMO, this situation is one where the good of the many should have outweighed the good of the one (Griner).
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tracylynn
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,899
Jun 26, 2014 22:49:09 GMT
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Post by tracylynn on Dec 8, 2022 20:30:19 GMT
I personally think that she had likely been doing the same thing for years. It's well known that she was well liked and a celebrity there. Russian changed the special rules they were treating her with and didn't tell her. Russia picked her up right as they were starting to bomb Ukraine. That was no coincidence. I'm glad the US brought her home. I have no doubt that they were trying to negotiate for Whelan as well, and that's quiet frankly why this took so long. For some reason, Russia won't let him go as easily. I don't know enough about the case to comment much - other than I saw this morning that he is a citizen of like 3-4 Countries. Where was he born and raised? Does anyone know? I'm assuming the US as we are the ones fighting for him, but if he's a citizen of other Countries, do they have skin in the game too? Are they helping obtain his release? As far as letting "the bad guy go", as someone else pointed out up stream, his value to the US was dwindling by the day. I also believe nothing good awaits him in Russia. Especially Russia as it currently exists. I also love how we're calling pot users druggies now. /endsarcasm
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Post by 950nancy on Dec 8, 2022 20:30:37 GMT
It is wonderful news but the prisoner they swapped her for is a really bad guy. He is called the Merchant of Death and is the largest arms dealer in the world. The US screwed that one up. They should have also gotten out the other US prisoner for this guy. I do wish they could have gotten the other guy out as well. While it sucks to let out the Russian guy, I am very happy for one American to get home.
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Post by Merge on Dec 8, 2022 20:33:16 GMT
He was sentenced in 2011 to 25!years. Yeah Im not sure where the 13 year sentence is coming from. He got 25 years in 2011. Hm, I read that in an article. I’ll have to go back and look for it. ETA: Welp, I have no idea where I got that number. He's served more than ten years of a 25 year sentence. My apologies, and thanks for the correction. I did find this interesting, from the US Circuit Court judge who sentenced him. This is someone who had to have intimate knowledge of his dealings, I believe. (From The Insider.) He's not a good guy. But I believe that our negotiators would not have released him if they believed he presented a further threat to the US. Based on his past history, Biden - who is often too conventional in his approach for my taste - likely relied heavily on the guidance of the CIA, NSA, DHS, and whoever else before making this decision. That is historically what US presidents from both parties do. And the vast majority of his critics on this definitely have a political motivation for their criticism.
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Post by peanutterbutter on Dec 8, 2022 20:34:06 GMT
Truthfully, if she knowingly packed it, yes she should have been aware of the laws and paid attention to them. But the punishment she received there in no way fit the crime, and yes I do believe her being gay played a part into the criminalization and sentencing. I'm glad for her that she is on her way home, and hope she has gained a greater awareness of the necessity of recognizing the rules and laws of countries that you are traveling into and a guest of. Hopefully others do as well, and don't count on their celebrity status to get them out of it.
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Post by mom on Dec 8, 2022 20:41:19 GMT
I personally think that she had likely been doing the same thing for years. It's well known that she was well liked and a celebrity there. Russian changed the special rules they were treating her with and didn't tell her. Russia picked her up right as they were starting to bomb Ukraine. That was no coincidence. I'm glad the US brought her home. I have no doubt that they were trying to negotiate for Whelan as well, and that's quiet frankly why this took so long. For some reason, Russia won't let him go as easily. I don't know enough about the case to comment much - other than I saw this morning that he is a citizen of like 3-4 Countries. Where was he born and raised? Does anyone know? I'm assuming the US as we are the ones fighting for him, but if he's a citizen of other Countries, do they have skin in the game too? Are they helping obtain his release? As far as letting "the bad guy go", as someone else pointed out up stream, his value to the US was dwindling by the day. I also believe nothing good awaits him in Russia. Especially Russia as it currently exists. I also love how we're calling pot users druggies now. /endsarcasm If I recall, Whelan was born in Canada, and his parents were British.
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pinklady
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,922
Nov 14, 2016 23:47:03 GMT
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Post by pinklady on Dec 8, 2022 20:46:49 GMT
Not to get in a pissing match with you, but who (besides our resident Trump supporter) is insinuating she shouldn't have been brought home because they dont agree with her politics? What I am reading is that people are taking Griner at her word when she said she had the drugs and that if you break a law in another country then you should accept their punishment. Yes, only one person said that as I recall. It was just an example. I guess my question for the rest is - if a pretty, blonde American woman visiting a conservative Arab country was caught in what appeared to be an act of adultery and sentenced to death by stoning, would everyone be so on board with “she did the crime, let her take the punishment?” I think most of us recognize that some other country’s laws or punishments amount to human rights violations, and that we have some obligation to see that our citizens don’t have their rights violated abroad because some dictator wants to make a point. You don't break other laws of other countries while you are there. Your example is perfect, American women in an Arab country SHOULD NOT do anything improper. They better know the fucking law before they go and cover up when they get there. Fuck around and find out fits perfectly with your example. And while we're at it, American women who travel to countries that think dogs have more rights that women are STUPID!
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Post by MichyM on Dec 8, 2022 20:48:14 GMT
I personally think that she had likely been doing the same thing for years. It's well known that she was well liked and a celebrity there. Russian changed the special rules they were treating her with and didn't tell her. Russia picked her up right as they were starting to bomb Ukraine. That was no coincidence. I'm glad the US brought her home. I have no doubt that they were trying to negotiate for Whelan as well, and that's quiet frankly why this took so long. For some reason, Russia won't let him go as easily. I don't know enough about the case to comment much - other than I saw this morning that he is a citizen of like 3-4 Countries. Where was he born and raised? Does anyone know? I'm assuming the US as we are the ones fighting for him, but if he's a citizen of other Countries, do they have skin in the game too? Are they helping obtain his release? As far as letting "the bad guy go", as someone else pointed out up stream, his value to the US was dwindling by the day. I also believe nothing good awaits him in Russia. Especially Russia as it currently exists. I also love how we're calling pot users druggies now. /endsarcasm If I recall, Whelan was born in Canada, and his parents were British. Yes, his British and Irish citizenships are a result of his parents' birthplaces. He was born in Canada, thus the Canadian citizenship. He is a resident (and citizen) of the US, thus why we're working to get him out.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,084
Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on Dec 8, 2022 20:49:25 GMT
Yeah Im not sure where the 13 year sentence is coming from. He got 25 years in 2011. Hm, I read that in an article. I’ll have to go back and look for it. Time served before he was sentenced and good behavior deductions possibly?
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Post by Bridget in MD on Dec 8, 2022 20:49:56 GMT
I personally think that she had likely been doing the same thing for years. It's well known that she was well liked and a celebrity there. Russian changed the special rules they were treating her with and didn't tell her. Russia picked her up right as they were starting to bomb Ukraine. That was no coincidence. I'm glad the US brought her home. I have no doubt that they were trying to negotiate for Whelan as well, and that's quiet frankly why this took so long. For some reason, Russia won't let him go as easily. I don't know enough about the case to comment much - other than I saw this morning that he is a citizen of like 3-4 Countries. Where was he born and raised? Does anyone know? I'm assuming the US as we are the ones fighting for him, but if he's a citizen of other Countries, do they have skin in the game too? Are they helping obtain his release? As far as letting "the bad guy go", as someone else pointed out up stream, his value to the US was dwindling by the day. I also believe nothing good awaits him in Russia. Especially Russia as it currently exists. I also love how we're calling pot users druggies now. /endsarcasm If I recall, Whelan was born in Canada, and his parents were British. And I think I read he's a US Marine, who lived in Michigan? Does that mean he became a US citizen (I thought you had to be to serve in the US armed forces).
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Post by MichyM on Dec 8, 2022 20:50:32 GMT
Not to get in a pissing match with you, but who (besides our resident Trump supporter) is insinuating she shouldn't have been brought home because they dont agree with her politics? What I am reading is that people are taking Griner at her word when she said she had the drugs and that if you break a law in another country then you should accept their punishment. Yes, only one person said that as I recall. It was just an example. I guess my question for the rest is - if a pretty, blonde American woman visiting a conservative Arab country was caught in what appeared to be an act of adultery and sentenced to death by stoning, would everyone be so on board with “she did the crime, let her take the punishment?”I think most of us recognize that some other country’s laws or punishments amount to human rights violations, and that we have some obligation to see that our citizens don’t have their rights violated abroad because some dictator wants to make a point. I'll be honest (and said in the nicest way possible) this feels like a straw man argument to me.
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Post by Merge on Dec 8, 2022 20:51:15 GMT
Hm, I read that in an article. I’ll have to go back and look for it. Time served before he was sentenced and good behavior deductions possibly? Maybe. News outlets have an interest in being brief so background details like that are often left out. Or I might have just blundered. Who knows?
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Post by mom on Dec 8, 2022 20:51:34 GMT
If I recall, Whelan was born in Canada, and his parents were British. And I think I read he's a US Marine, who lived in Michigan? Does that mean he became a US citizen (I thought you had to be to serve in the US armed forces). Yes, he was a Marine from Michigan, though I am pretty sure he was dishonorably discharged.
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