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Post by SockMonkey on Dec 8, 2022 23:29:45 GMT
For real. It's giving a "well, they sat at the front of the bus and they should have followed the rules instead because those were the rules" vibe. Either you believe in working toward a more just world, or you don't. đ¤ˇđźââď¸ Thatâs a ridiculous comparison. What civil rights was BG fighting for? The right to do drugs in every country? Rosa Parks would be so proud đ Do I want a more just world? Of course. Do I think that negotiating with Putin will in any way make a more just world? No. You seem very concerned with the letter of laws and not concerned with justice. Some laws are unjust. Some punishments are disproportionate. Please believe that it is a better world where someone like Brittney Griner can be home with her family, see her loved ones again, rather than rot in a Russian prison because she's being used as a political pawn.
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Post by myshelly on Dec 8, 2022 23:30:16 GMT
Actually, she IS a bad person. Have you read her history of domestic violence? Sheâs an abuser. I thought we were supposed to not be ok with people beating women, or is that only if the abuser is a man? Even if I give you that she's a "bad person," she served her sentence for her guilty plea to disorderly conduct, took her punishment of suspension, and sought treatment. Is what you're saying that Russia should be allowed to disproportionately punish her for a minor infraction and let her rot in prison because of a charge she already had consequences for in the United States seven years ago? I just need some clarity there. My argument is that Russia should be able to dictate her punishment and prison sentence because she was in Russia and is subject to their laws and their consequences. My argument is that I donât think the US should have given up anything or negotiated with Putin to bring her home. I donât actually care anything about her or what she did or what kind of person she is. I care that Biden negotiated with Putin and gave up an actual bad guy under some misguided impression that she was some mistreated martyr.
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Post by myshelly on Dec 8, 2022 23:31:27 GMT
Thatâs a ridiculous comparison. What civil rights was BG fighting for? The right to do drugs in every country? Rosa Parks would be so proud đ Do I want a more just world? Of course. Do I think that negotiating with Putin will in any way make a more just world? No. You seem very concerned with the letter of laws and not concerned with justice. Some laws are unjust. Some punishments are disproportionate. Please believe that it is a better world where someone like Brittney Griner can be home with her family, see her loved ones again, rather than rot in a Russian prison because she's being used as a political pawn. I just donât think itâs our place to tell another country what is Justice or not. You go to another country, you are subject to their laws and consequences even when you believe they are unfair or unjust.
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Post by onelasttime on Dec 8, 2022 23:34:52 GMT
Putting aside the armchair degrees in geopolitics some of y'all seem to have gotten from, I don't know, QVC, this thread has been disheartening. Brittany Griner is not a druggie. She's not a bad person. She is deserving of her freedom and safety. For some folks to not see that she deserves basic human rights and a due process that is respectful of basic humanity is...wild. Want better for the world, I beg of you. Actually, she IS a bad person. Have you read her history of domestic violence? Sheâs an abuser. I thought we were supposed to not be ok with people beating women, or is that only if the abuser is a man? If what you are claiming is true then fine let her face charges for that in the United States. But there is absolutely no reason/excuse to leave any American Citizen to rot in a Russian jail for a minor infraction, per Russiaâs own laws/sentencing , just because they are an American. And if canât grasp the simple fact she received the 9 year sentence because she was an American and that itâs wrong thenđ¤ˇđťââď¸
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Post by SockMonkey on Dec 8, 2022 23:36:42 GMT
Even if I give you that she's a "bad person," she served her sentence for her guilty plea to disorderly conduct, took her punishment of suspension, and sought treatment. Is what you're saying that Russia should be allowed to disproportionately punish her for a minor infraction and let her rot in prison because of a charge she already had consequences for in the United States seven years ago? I just need some clarity there. My argument is that Russia should be able to dictate her punishment and prison sentence because she was in Russia and is subject to their laws and their consequences. My argument is that I donât think the US should have given up anything or negotiated with Putin to bring her home. I donât actually care anything about her or what she did or what kind of person she is. I care that Biden negotiated with Putin and gave up an actual bad guy under some misguided impression that she was some mistreated martyr. She was mistreated. Full stop. Her punishment was unjust and a violation of human rights. I will never defend Russia's unjust system. Why are you concerned about their laws, when they so clearly disregard the human rights of others? You're so upset about the release of a weapons dealer who was bargained for by the very government whose carceral system you think we should respect. Fascinating.
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Post by SockMonkey on Dec 8, 2022 23:37:06 GMT
Actually, she IS a bad person. Have you read her history of domestic violence? Sheâs an abuser. I thought we were supposed to not be ok with people beating women, or is that only if the abuser is a man? If what you are claiming is true then fine let her face charges for that in the United States. But there is absolutely no reason/excuse to leave any American Citizen to rot in a Russian jail for a minor infraction, per Russiaâs own laws/sentencing , just because they are an American. And if canât grasp the simple fact she received the 9 year sentence because she was an American and that itâs wrong thenđ¤ˇđťââď¸ She already did. Seven years ago.
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Post by SockMonkey on Dec 8, 2022 23:37:54 GMT
You seem very concerned with the letter of laws and not concerned with justice. Some laws are unjust. Some punishments are disproportionate. Please believe that it is a better world where someone like Brittney Griner can be home with her family, see her loved ones again, rather than rot in a Russian prison because she's being used as a political pawn. I just donât think itâs our place to tell another country what is Justice or not. You go to another country, you are subject to their laws and consequences even when you believe they are unfair or unjust. Entire world wars were fought over this, FYI.
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Post by MichyM on Dec 8, 2022 23:40:59 GMT
No one said they don't want better of the world. To insinuate that those who disagree with you are not respectful of basic humanity itself is...wild. If you want to make a difference, don't do it by breaking said country's laws and then make your country come get you if you get thrown in prison. Even if you are being made an example of (as we all know that Griner was) with an exceptionally harsh sentence. I swear, some people here (not directed towards anyone in particular) need to spend time outside of the Americas, Caribbean, and Europe. If you think she should have rotted in a Russian prison for that minor infraction, I don't think you believe in real justice. I fully support the effort and success in bringing Griner home. Pardon me. Go back and read my thoughts on this thread rather than jumping in with this sort of nonsense and attempting to put your ridiculous words and thoughts into my mouth. Your need to personally attack is childish. Iâm sorry for whatever causes you to lash out at random women on the internet, but just stop.
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Post by myshelly on Dec 8, 2022 23:42:43 GMT
I just donât think itâs our place to tell another country what is Justice or not. You go to another country, you are subject to their laws and consequences even when you believe they are unfair or unjust. Entire world wars were fought over this, FYI. I call BS on that. Wars arenât fought over justice. Wars are fought over resources and justice is tacked on as propaganda for your side.
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Post by cindosha on Dec 8, 2022 23:43:16 GMT
Hahahaha!!! Don't you know that the answer to that question is a big fat no??? Nobody is entitled to an opinion except the bullies here. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You are not entitled to your own set of facts. But not entitled to ones opinion of facts though, right?
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Post by SockMonkey on Dec 8, 2022 23:43:32 GMT
If you think she should have rotted in a Russian prison for that minor infraction, I don't think you believe in real justice. I fully support the effort and success in bringing Griner home. Pardon me. Go back and read my thoughts on this thread rather than jumping in with this sort of nonsense and attempting to put your ridiculous words and thoughts into my mouth. Your need to personally attack is childish. Iâm sorry for whatever causes you to lash out at random women on the internet, but just stop. I'm not personally attacking you, so I apologize that the tone indicated that. I do find it disappointing and problematic to blame someone who was subject to an unjust system for that system's operation. I understand better now that you are glad she's home.
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Post by SockMonkey on Dec 8, 2022 23:45:02 GMT
Entire world wars were fought over this, FYI. I call BS on that. Wars arenât fought over justice. Wars are fought over resources and justice is tacked on as propaganda for your side. Oh. Okay. Well, I guess that's one perspective. I know that my family members went to war to defend democracy and fight Hitler; I'm not sure they signed up to defend resources. What "side" would you be on, then?
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Post by myshelly on Dec 8, 2022 23:46:30 GMT
I call BS on that. Wars arenât fought over justice. Wars are fought over resources and justice is tacked on as propaganda for your side. Oh. Okay. Well, I guess that's one perspective. I know that my family members went to war to defend democracy and fight Hitler; I'm not sure they signed up to defend resources. What "side" would you be on, then? Couldnât get people to sign up unless it was âfor democracyâ now could they?
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Post by cindyupnorth on Dec 9, 2022 0:32:39 GMT
Nope. My position is and always has been that those of us who are not experts in a highly specialized field are wise to have a look at what actual experts are saying - and consider their motivation - before spouting off opinions. But I forgot - this the board where beliefs trump expertise and always will, so ... carry on. Lots of people (not you necessarily, but lots of people) are showing their asses on this thread. Suggesting that American citizens shouldn't be brought home because you don't agree with their political beliefs is pretty disgusting. I feel this is a forum where you can spout off any dang thing you want. doesn't mean there won't be a discussion. which is good. Healthy conversation is good. other opinions are good.
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Post by cindosha on Dec 9, 2022 1:12:49 GMT
My argument is that Russia should be able to dictate her punishment and prison sentence because she was in Russia and is subject to their laws and their consequences. My argument is that I donât think the US should have given up anything or negotiated with Putin to bring her home. I donât actually care anything about her or what she did or what kind of person she is. I care that Biden negotiated with Putin and gave up an actual bad guy under some misguided impression that she was some mistreated martyr. She was mistreated. Full stop. Her punishment was unjust and a violation of human rights. I will never defend Russia's unjust system. Why are you concerned about their laws, when they so clearly disregard the human rights of others? You're so upset about the release of a weapons dealer who was bargained for by the very government whose carceral system you think we should respect. Fascinating. You understand that she committed her crime in THEIR country, right? You are under no obligation to defend Russiaâs âunjustâ system. They are. Itâs their country, not ours. She committed her crime there. And letâs be perfectly clear. SHE ABSOLUTELY COMMITTED A CRIMEâŚin a foreign country. Where bringing drugs to their country is a crime. Itâs not up to you to judge whether the the punishment fit the crime, youâre being the citizen of a country other than Russia and all. You are, apparently the one who seems concerned about Russiaâs laws and whether they are just. But I am absolutely gobsmacked by the fact that you donât seem upset that a terrible weapons dealer who was convicted of crimes against AMERICANS released. My prediction is that that move will cost American lives in the future.
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Post by onelasttime on Dec 9, 2022 1:55:54 GMT
Iâm kind of thinking the bigger threat to this country is not some arms dealer but angry white males who can legally buy AR-15s and then use school kids, or members of the gay community, or co-workers for target practice.
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Post by cindosha on Dec 9, 2022 2:00:36 GMT
Iâm kind of thinking the bigger threat to this country is not some arms dealer but angry white males who can legally buy AR-15s and then use school kids, or members of the gay community, or co-workers  for target practice. Oh, FFS!! Find another topic.
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Post by bc2ca on Dec 9, 2022 2:01:05 GMT
Grinerâs detainment certainly made Paulâs detainment better known I think this is really true and hopefully will keep some pressure on his case. He was sentenced in 2011 to 25!years. ETA: Welp, I have no idea where I got that number. He's served more than ten years of a 25 year sentence. My apologies, and thanks for the correction. You weren't far off, Merge, as he was scheduled to be released in 2029 and could have potentially been released earlier. Typical time served is about 2/3 of the any actual sentence. Yes, he was a Marine from Michigan, though I am pretty sure he was dishonorably discharged. Court-martialed resulting in a 2008 bad conduct discharge.
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Post by mollycoddle on Dec 9, 2022 2:43:02 GMT
Putting aside the armchair degrees in geopolitics some of y'all seem to have gotten from, I don't know, QVC, this thread has been disheartening. Brittany Griner is not a druggie. She's not a bad person. She is deserving of her freedom and safety. For some folks to not see that she deserves basic human rights and a due process that is respectful of basic humanity is...wild. Want better for the world, I beg of you. I agree. She was sentenced to 9 years for some cannabis oil. To me, thatâs excessive. Iâm glad that sheâs home, and I hope that a deal can be worked out to free Mr. Whelan as well. ETA: I donât know if the penal colony that Griner was transported to is as bad as this description, but no one deserves to be treated like this. www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/griner-russian-penal-colony-difficult-prisoners-say-rcna54180#:~:text=Brittney%20Griner%20likely%20entered%20a,in%20a%20prisoner%20swap%20Thursday.
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Post by mollycoddle on Dec 9, 2022 10:37:21 GMT
My first thought was this is a good thing. My second thought is there are a lot of people out there giving legitimacy to Russia's "justice" system. You are not fighting on the side of justice if you demand people fulfil the terms of an unfair system. Doubly so, if you don't like the person involved. Also, I've seen lots of varying reports of Bout's sentence and remainder. He was convicted of a 25 year term. The Federal Bureau of Prisons had his release scheduled for August 2029. Every day closer to that date his "value" becomes less and less. There is no outcome where "The Merchant of Death" stays locked up forever. This way he's forced to go back to Russia and deal with whatever awaits him. People seem to assume it's good things, but someone took over his role when he was arrested, and they won't want him having any ideas about getting back in the game. The alternative is that in 7 years, he goes to a place of his choosing, surrounded by people of his choosing. That's a scarier proposition to me than this. He may not be in a US prison, but I am not sure he is free. Sausage-making *is* disgusting. Which is one my life philosophies for the "big" stuff is there is no "correct" move, there is only avoiding the fatal one. Sometimes there are no good options. Sometimes what seems like the ideal move, just leads you into a corner full of bad outcomes. Sometimes you have to make a less than ideal choice now, because 5 moves later you will have more non-fatal options still available. Russia needs to be willing to negotiate to end the war in Ukraine, to get back on the non-nuclear proliferation train. To accomplish that, this moves does not seem fatal. It seems like it would keep Russia at the negotiating table. I don't think they are getting as much as people think for what they gave up. Having Ms. Griner as a hostage for 9 years would have been a pretty useful propaganda tool. All of this. She had been transported to a penal colony, which is very likely brutal. I linked an article about them in my previous comment. I heard Bill Richardson say that he thinks that Putin had the final word on Whelan after much negotiation, and it is probable that he did not want to give Biden a big win by releasing Whelan too. Richardson has been involved in trying to get Whelan released for awhile, so I suspect that he knows what he is talking about.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Dec 9, 2022 13:08:01 GMT
On Russian state media they are talking about this. It appears that they are using American culture wars to stoke division (as usual) and letting Griner go and not Whelan is part of that. Based on what I see on Twitter, republicans are falling for it hook line and sinker, as usual.
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carhoch
Pearl Clutcher
Be yourself everybody else is already taken
Posts: 3,028
Location: Weâre RVâs so It change all the time .
Jun 28, 2014 21:46:39 GMT
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Post by carhoch on Dec 9, 2022 14:07:31 GMT
Just a little reminder for our republicans peas , Trump did nothing to help Paul Whelan ,didnât even mention his name once and I donât remember you being outraged when he let got of 5â000 Taliban members so you probably should seat this one out .
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Post by aj2hall on Dec 9, 2022 14:43:17 GMT
Some great points here. Russia is always trying to create and stoke division in our country. Republicans often play right into that. heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/december-8-2022?r=1f0orz&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=emailWhelanâs brother, David, supported the decision to bring Griner home without Whelan. He expressed the familyâs disappointment but said: âIt is so important to me that it is clear that we do not begrudge Ms. Griner her freedom. As I have often remarked, Brittneyâs and Paulâs cases were never really intertwined. It has always been a strong possibility that one might be freed without the other.â
It is worth noting that Russian operatives work to sow division in the U.S., and permitting Biden to win the freedom of a Black married lesbian while keeping a white former Marine in prison is the sort of ploy that could turn the repatriation of an American into a cultural flashpoint. Impressively, both the Griner family and the Whelan family avoided that trap and kept a united front.
Former president Trump, however, played along, complaining bitterly about âa âstupidâ and unpatriotic embarrassment for the USA!!!â that had secured the release of âa basketball player who openly hates our Countryâ instead of âformer Marine Paul Whelan,â who âwould have been let out for the asking.â Other MAGA Republicans followed suit.
The Biden administrationâs work to bring Griner home had a domestic effect: it demonstrated that the U.S. government cares about all of its citizens.
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Post by sabrinae on Dec 9, 2022 14:45:27 GMT
Like many of you, I am torn. IMHO she was an absolute idiot and arrogant to think that she could take weed (even in vape form) into ANY foreign country, let alone Russia. And yes, I totally get why she played BB in Russia. But come on, don't bring your drugs with you. I do not believe for a minute that they were in her luggage by mistake. I hate that she was used as a political pawn. I am glad that she's on her way home. I hate that we gave up a really bad guy for someone who did something so idiotic. If it was a matter of a one for one swap, I personally think Whelan should have been the one sent home. I hope Griner realizes what her idiotic decision cost this country. Not just in dollars and cents (which is not unsubstantial), but what it did for us politically. I really hope that Whelan is released soon. And I really hope that US citizens refrain from visiting, working, and all other things in Russia. Honestly, I am so incredibly angry with her and her idiotic decision. Itâs not like Russia was giving anyone a choice about who came home. Whelan was never on the table for a swap as far as Russia was concerned. Biden brought home who he was able to bring home. He canât force Russia to deal on Whelan. He did what was possible.
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Post by kristi521 on Dec 9, 2022 15:11:23 GMT
It is wonderful news but the prisoner they swapped her for is a really bad guy. He is called the Merchant of Death and is the largest arms dealer in the world. The US screwed that one up. They should have also gotten out the other US prisoner for this guy. The other US prisoner, Paul Whelan, is a former co-worker of mine. Another devastation for him and his family.
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Post by aj2hall on Dec 9, 2022 15:26:31 GMT
Yes, difficult and disappointing for Whelan's family. But, even his family recognizes that a deal for Whelan was not an option, it was never on the table. His case is entirely different and Russia is not willing to deal for him. Griner for Bout or no deal. There was never an option for Whelan.
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Post by MichyM on Dec 9, 2022 15:32:17 GMT
Like many of you, I am torn. IMHO she was an absolute idiot and arrogant to think that she could take weed (even in vape form) into ANY foreign country, let alone Russia. And yes, I totally get why she played BB in Russia. But come on, don't bring your drugs with you. I do not believe for a minute that they were in her luggage by mistake. I hate that she was used as a political pawn. I am glad that she's on her way home. I hate that we gave up a really bad guy for someone who did something so idiotic. If it was a matter of a one for one swap, I personally think Whelan should have been the one sent home. I hope Griner realizes what her idiotic decision cost this country. Not just in dollars and cents (which is not unsubstantial), but what it did for us politically. I really hope that Whelan is released soon. And I really hope that US citizens refrain from visiting, working, and all other things in Russia. Honestly, I am so incredibly angry with her and her idiotic decision. Itâs not like Russia was giving anyone a choice about who came home. Whelan was never on the table for a swap as far as Russia was concerned. Biden brought home who he was able to bring home. He canât force Russia to deal on Whelan. He did what was possible. Lol. Of course not. Thank you for stating the obvious. đ¤ˇđźââď¸
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,260
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on Dec 9, 2022 15:35:54 GMT
Time for the U.S. to start rounding up the Russian mob members and putting them in prison.
I am happy Griner is home. I will never side with a foreign country's unjust punishment for crimes. I know you would all be singing a different tune if it was your loved one.
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Post by Merge on Dec 9, 2022 15:38:02 GMT
Just popping back in to share Paul Whelanâs familyâs responses.
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oh yvonne
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,062
Jun 26, 2014 0:45:23 GMT
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Post by oh yvonne on Dec 9, 2022 15:42:27 GMT
Iâm kind of thinking the bigger threat to this country is not some arms dealer but angry white males who can legally buy AR-15s and then use school kids, or members of the gay community, or co-workers for target practice. Exactly. Plus I just read the whole "Merchant of Death" moniker came from a British newspaper trying to get headlines. He's a bad guy but not near as powerful as he's being made out to be.
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