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Post by AussieMeg on Apr 4, 2023 23:15:52 GMT
So my daughter broke her hand the week before last, and yesterday she was meant to have surgery. The paperwork said "No food or non-clear liquids after 7am and no water after 11am." We waited a couple of hours, until she was taken down to surgery. I left the hospital, then two minutes later get a call from one of the nurses to ask me to come back. Just as DD was about to go into surgery, she said "Oh, I just need to get rid of my chewing gum." Long story short, fasting also means no chewing, so her surgery was cancelled. I'm sure to some of you, this is obvious, but not to all.  So now she has to go back in today and try again. But today there will be no chewing gum!  A few other points: 1. DD googled, because she wanted to understand why chewing gum would be a problem. She was too upset at the time to ask. She found an article by the American Society of Anesthesiologists that says "Chewing gum while fasting before surgery is safe, study finds." I'm assuming though, that the rules are still the same in the US (no chewing gum) at this stage? 2. The nurses were really lovely with her when she was so upset. The doctors were not so nice. I guess they're too important to show a little compassion and understanding. 3. The nurses were all women, the doctors were women, the surgeon is a woman, and I am here for it! DD was rapt when she found out her surgeon is a woman. 4. DD doesn't have private health insurance, so she is having the surgery at the local public hospital. As they were filling out the paperwork, the nurse said "There won't be any out-of-pocket expenses for you today." Yep, an operation to put in a plate, with all those nurses, and doctors, and the anaesthetist, and the surgeon, and the theatre, and the hospital room, all comes to a big fat ZERO dollars. (Sorry, I just had to throw that one in!  ) |
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Post by busy on Apr 4, 2023 23:29:08 GMT
Not obvious to me. I always thought the reason for fasting prior to surgery was to reduce the chances of vomiting and aspirating. Since that wouldn't be the case with gum, I don't know the reasoning. I've never been given those instructions before - I chewed gum during labor but couldn't eat anything.
I hope your daughter is feeling better soon💖
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Post by dewryce on Apr 4, 2023 23:35:34 GMT
Maybe because you produce so much saliva, and then swallow it? I dunno, just throwing out a guess. Hope everything goes well for her!
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Post by flanz on Apr 4, 2023 23:36:28 GMT
Hooray for socialized medicine! Health care should never have become a for profit business in the USA.
GRRR.
Sorry your dd had to go through that.. I would never have guessed that gum would be an issue.
Wishing her a complete and speedy recovery from her surgery! xo
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Post by grammadee on Apr 4, 2023 23:46:10 GMT
That's weird. I was ENCOURAGED to chew gum right up until my gall bladder surgery and then directly afterward. I was told it would "keep everything moving in the right direction" and prevent a slow down or halt to my digestive system (which has been an issue after previous surgeries). And I thought "duh..." that is the same reason my oldest son's doctor recommended a soother for him when he had colic--to keep the digestive juices flowing.
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Post by Scrapper100 on Apr 4, 2023 23:47:13 GMT
I never would have thought of that and was never told that or asked before surgery. I don’t chew gum but it never would have occurred to me. So sorry this happened to your daughter. I hope her surgery goes well.
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Post by disneypal on Apr 4, 2023 23:53:23 GMT
I wouldn't have thought of that either. I don't think of chewing gum as ingesting food or taking in liquids.
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Post by Zee on Apr 4, 2023 23:53:45 GMT
Absolutely unnecessary to cancel surgery for chewing gum. Most surgical procedures here allow for a sip of water with meds and ok to brush teeth--unless it's GI surgery with a scope needed, in which case yes it does need to be all empty. But gum wouldn't disqualify anyone for a plate in the arm, here anyway.
The reason for NPO is to reduce the risk of vomiting and aspiration, as mentioned above. And also to keep the stomach clear if they're scoping your insides, which is not the case for your daughter.
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Post by pjaye on Apr 4, 2023 23:53:57 GMT
That sucks that she broke her hand...especially for her occupation! How did she do it?
I actually don't know what our policy is on chewing gum because I never admit people, but the main person who makes that decision will be the anaesthetist. The risk will because the chewing generates salvia and gastric juices which could potentially cause a problem during the induction of the anaesthetic...when they start to give the anaesthetic drugs and all the muscles relax and before they put the tube in her mouth...those juices can potentially come up and go into her lungs. In a worst case scenario - the person could stop breathing (respiratory arrest) and even if it's not that severe they could still end up with aspiration pneumonia. And it might be totally fine and nothing happens...but her doctors decided not to take the risk.
Yes the doctors would have been very annoyed - they don't all operate every day, so one patient coming off an existing list needing to go on to a different day will mean a big reshuffle. The spot she left could have been filled by someone else, and now they need to add another list just for her, and potentially have to call and try to get other people at short notice to make having an extra operating list worthwhile.
It isn't a problem for the nurses as they are there for their shifts anyway and it doesn't matter which nurse is on, but it does create a bigger issue for the specific surgeon and operating theatre staff.
Many years ago my Dad had a coffee before his operation because "they just said nothing to eat" (no, they would have said "or drink" as well) and they were equally pissed off with him...and so was I!
I have a friend who used to word in a children's ward and there would regularly be parents who gave their kids a few lollies (candy) because "it's not food" and were then very angry when the surgery was cancelled.
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Post by AussieMeg on Apr 4, 2023 23:58:53 GMT
I am actually very relieved that most of you who have replied so far were also not aware that you couldn't chew gum while fasting for surgery. DD was sooooo upset. Partly because she'd had to work herself up to the surgery mentally. She's a physiotherapist, so uses her hands a lot for work, obviously. But also because she felt so embarrassed.
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Post by AussieMeg on Apr 5, 2023 0:04:59 GMT
Football training!! She decided to play football for the first time this year, after being the trainer for a few clubs the last few years. They hadn't even played their first game yet. And thanks for your explanation as to why they would have cancelled pjaye . And you're right, it's going to cause a big problem for the hospital today, having to slot another surgery in an already full book. It also means that she's going to have to sit in a hospital bed all day just waiting. |
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Post by pjaye on Apr 5, 2023 0:07:09 GMT
It's not a standard rule - it's mostly up to the individual anaesthetist and as they are the ones responsible for the airway/breathing during the surgery, they get to do what they think is the safest thing for the people in their care.
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Post by scrapmaven on Apr 5, 2023 0:10:26 GMT
As you know, AussieMeg, having surgery is one of my hobbies.  I've always been told not to chew gum, for the above reasons but I'm in a different country. I feel for your dd. You really have to psyche yourself out for surgery and having it postponed is a letdown. May her surgery today go well and may she have an easy and comfortable recovery. As a physiotherapist, she'll know what to do for her recovery. That gives her an edge. Mama ((((HUGS)))). |
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snyder
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Post by snyder on Apr 5, 2023 0:23:27 GMT
Sorry your daughter broke her hand. Ouch! Hope it heals quickly.
I wonder if they feel gum may skew one's sugar numbers, thus could alter the anesthesia that is administered based on that reading.
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scrappinghappy
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Post by scrappinghappy on Apr 5, 2023 0:32:35 GMT
We totally need healthcare like that!! I'm all for it.
Hope the surgery is successful and your daughter makes a quick and complete recovery
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teddyw
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Post by teddyw on Apr 5, 2023 0:43:54 GMT
My bff works in surgery as an RN and she said chewing gum causes an increase in saliva and may alter the ph.
It also increases the gastric juices.
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Post by pjaye on Apr 5, 2023 1:04:26 GMT
I wonder if they feel gum may skew one's sugar numbers, thus could alter the anesthesia that is administered based on that reading No, nothing to do with blood sugar. Even in a person who has diabetes, the actual anaesthetic is no different, the only difference for them is how their blood sugars & diabetes medications are managed during times of not eating. |
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Post by pjaye on Apr 5, 2023 1:10:58 GMT
Football training!! She decided to play football for the first time this year, after being the trainer for a few clubs the last few years. They hadn't even played their first game yet. That'll do it - where I used to work we had a specialist hand surgeon...and so many of his patients were footballers. |
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Post by AussieMeg on Apr 5, 2023 1:46:51 GMT
That'll do it - where I used to work we had a specialist hand surgeon...and so many of his patients were footballers. The nurse said "How did you break your hand? Basketball?" When DD told her it was football, she said "Yep, it's always either basketball or football!" |
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momto4kiddos
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Post by momto4kiddos on Apr 5, 2023 12:47:02 GMT
I knew this from surgery paperwork I think. I've had a few colonoscopies also and it is most definitely in that paperwork! It's definitely something that should be in all paperwork if it's important to the MD/Surgeon's.
Good luck to your dd, hope she heals well.
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Post by Judie in Oz on Apr 5, 2023 13:35:33 GMT
4. DD doesn't have private health insurance, so she is having the surgery at the local public hospital. As they were filling out the paperwork, the nurse said "There won't be any out-of-pocket expenses for you today." Yep, an operation to put in a plate, with all those nurses, and doctors, and the anaesthetist, and the surgeon, and the theatre, and the hospital room, all comes to a big fat ZERO dollars. (Sorry, I just had to throw that one in! ) I'm sorry your DD's surgery had to be postponed. It's annoying to get all prepped only to have surgery cancelled at the last minute, for whatever reason. I wouldn't have thought of no gum allowed either. I hope she recovers quickly from her injury. On the operation costs, I had two major surgeries last year (badly broken ankle, then badly broken foot as I was still recovering from ankle surgery), and my out of pocket cost was $30. That was suggested as a donation for the CAM boot I needed to wear. I will have another surgery in a few week's time to remove some of the hardware in the foot, and that cost will be $0, thank goodness. |
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iowgirl
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Post by iowgirl on Apr 5, 2023 20:06:21 GMT
"There won't be any out-of-pocket expenses for you today." Yep, an operation to put in a plate, with all those nurses, and doctors, and the anaesthetist, and the surgeon, and the theatre, and the hospital room, all comes to a big fat ZERO dollars. (Sorry, I just had to throw that one in! ) Hoping she has a speedy healing and recovery! My DH had hand/arm surgery a year ago and it went really well. Free healthcare sounds wonderful, and I hope someday our US system can be better - but "free" is never really free. With a VERY uneducated look at comparing tax rates between what I pay in the US and what the same rate would be in Australia - it is quite different. In the US my tax rate is 24% (give or take) and in Australia it would be 45% plus .45/per$1 over $180K PLUS a Medicare surcharge. *I have a tenuous grasp on the US tax policies, and only shaky Google knowledge of other countries!! I am lucky to be able to afford a decent health care coverage. But it isn't terrific. I have a fairly large deductible, and and our premium is over 10K a year. But that is still a lot less that I would pay in the difference in the tax bill - by a long shot. I am thankful my children all have good healthcare plans through their employers and only pay a very minimal amount for it. I really wish there could be something done with health care costs in general and also the cost in insurance. Someone is getting very rich, while pinching the rest of us beyond control. Those that are getting very rich are the ones that control our politicians, thus ending any change of anything becoming 'affordable'. |
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Post by papersilly on Apr 5, 2023 20:35:51 GMT
good PSA. i always considered popping some gum before any of my surgeries because i never thought it would be a big deal either. i didn't want to have morning breath or empty stomach breath before surgery. it's the thought that they could cancel my surgery over the gum that stopped me from doing it each time. and now i know--they can cancel surgery and they do cancel surgery.
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lesley
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Post by lesley on Apr 5, 2023 20:41:55 GMT
"There won't be any out-of-pocket expenses for you today." Yep, an operation to put in a plate, with all those nurses, and doctors, and the anaesthetist, and the surgeon, and the theatre, and the hospital room, all comes to a big fat ZERO dollars. (Sorry, I just had to throw that one in! ) Hoping she has a speedy healing and recovery! My DH had hand/arm surgery a year ago and it went really well. Free healthcare sounds wonderful, and I hope someday our US system can be better - but "free" is never really free. With a VERY uneducated look at comparing tax rates between what I pay in the US and what the same rate would be in Australia - it is quite different. In the US my tax rate is 24% (give or take) and in Australia it would be 45% plus .45/per$1 over $180K PLUS a Medicare surcharge. *I have a tenuous grasp on the US tax policies, and only shaky Google knowledge of other countries!! I am lucky to be able to afford a decent health care coverage. But it isn't terrific. I have a fairly large deductible, and and our premium is over 10K a year. But that is still a lot less that I would pay in the difference in the tax bill - by a long shot. I am thankful my children all have good healthcare plans through their employers and only pay a very minimal amount for it. I really wish there could be something done with health care costs in general and also the cost in insurance. Someone is getting very rich, while pinching the rest of us beyond control. Those that are getting very rich are the ones that control our politicians, thus ending any change of anything becoming 'affordable'. So as I understand it then, you would have to add over $10k a year to your current tax bill - as well as your deductible (is that per person?) in order to be comparing like with like? |
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Post by iowgirl on Apr 5, 2023 21:02:49 GMT
So as I understand it then, you would have to add over $10k a year to your current tax bill - as well as your deductible (is that per person?) in order to be comparing like with like? Ehhh... I am thinking yes.. Deductible is 5K for DH & I combined. Again - my calculations and understanding of the taxes in foreign countries (much less the US) is shaky at best!!! But from what I can figure, I would be paying more in additional taxes and I am guessing a medicare type surcharge over and above the higher tax rate that countries with socialized medicine have, than what my current health insurance premium plus deductible would be. My insurance premium is also a deduction on my taxes, so that is currently a befit to me. But when I look at tax rates in Canada - they are less that someplace like Australia. So - there is that! So complicated! But when I hear FREE HEALTHCARE ... I always thing... eh.. it's not so free! But I truly want a better system in our country! |
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lesley
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Post by lesley on Apr 5, 2023 21:20:35 GMT
So as I understand it then, you would have to add over $10k a year to your current tax bill - as well as your deductible (is that per person?) in order to be comparing like with like? Ehhh... I am thinking yes.. Deductible is 5K for DH & I combined. Again - my calculations and understanding of the taxes in foreign countries (much less the US) is shaky at best!!! But from what I can figure, I would be paying more in additional taxes and I am guessing a medicare type surcharge over and above the higher tax rate that countries with socialized medicine have, than what my current health insurance premium plus deductible would be. My insurance premium is also a deduction on my taxes, so that is currently a befit to me. But when I look at tax rates in Canada - they are less that someplace like Australia. So - there is that! So complicated! But when I hear FREE HEALTHCARE ... I always thing... eh.. it's not so free! But I truly want a better system in our country! You’re right of course, in that someone is paying for it. I think paying for it through taxes is more equitable though, as it doesn’t depend on your employer, or which insurance company will take you on, etc, charging whatever rates they want to, and choosing what to cover. And of course ‘free' healthcare is also universal. I pay a very small amount of tax currently as my only income is a small occupational pension. But I’ve benefited hugely from the NHS over the last few years, and I’m now waiting for a hip replacement which will obviously cost me nothing. |
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Post by Neisey on Apr 5, 2023 21:45:18 GMT
Hoping your daughter has a speedy recovery!
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Post by Darcy Collins on Apr 5, 2023 23:16:54 GMT
So my daughter broke her hand the week before last, and yesterday she was meant to have surgery. The paperwork said "No food or non-clear liquids after 7am and no water after 11am." We waited a couple of hours, until she was taken down to surgery. I left the hospital, then two minutes later get a call from one of the nurses to ask me to come back. Just as DD was about to go into surgery, she said "Oh, I just need to get rid of my chewing gum." Long story short, fasting also means no chewing, so her surgery was cancelled. I'm sure to some of you, this is obvious, but not to all. So now she has to go back in today and try again. But today there will be no chewing gum! A few other points: 1. DD googled, because she wanted to understand why chewing gum would be a problem. She was too upset at the time to ask. She found an article by the American Society of Anesthesiologists that says "Chewing gum while fasting before surgery is safe, study finds." I'm assuming though, that the rules are still the same in the US (no chewing gum) at this stage? 2. The nurses were really lovely with her when she was so upset. The doctors were not so nice. I guess they're too important to show a little compassion and understanding. 3. The nurses were all women, the doctors were women, the surgeon is a woman, and I am here for it! DD was rapt when she found out her surgeon is a woman. 4. DD doesn't have private health insurance, so she is having the surgery at the local public hospital. As they were filling out the paperwork, the nurse said "There won't be any out-of-pocket expenses for you today." Yep, an operation to put in a plate, with all those nurses, and doctors, and the anaesthetist, and the surgeon, and the theatre, and the hospital room, all comes to a big fat ZERO dollars. (Sorry, I just had to throw that one in! ) There's a whole lot that the US can do better - but I do think there is massive confusion on the "average" American. My son son had a $50,000 hospital bill including 4 days in patient, emergency surgery and almost died - terrible - traumatic - but our out of pocket was 0 - yes ZERO dollars. It's frankly why it's so hard for reform to take place - most people are actually happy with their US insurance - the horror stories get the press (and yes they are terrible and would like a better system) - but when push comes to shove if anything people are more mad at the changes of ACA then they are looking for more change. |
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Post by AussieMeg on Apr 6, 2023 0:00:42 GMT
Free healthcare sounds wonderful, and I hope someday our US system can be better - but "free" is never really free. With a VERY uneducated look at comparing tax rates between what I pay in the US and what the same rate would be in Australia - it is quite different. In the US my tax rate is 24% (give or take) and in Australia it would be 45% plus .45/per$1 over $180K PLUS a Medicare surcharge. I am well aware that it isn't actually free, but I will take my country's health system over the US's any day. I certainly don't pay 45% tax, and not too many of my friends or family earn over $180,000 per year to be in that tax bracket. A few, but not many. I am in the 32.5% tax bracket. My son is in the next one down, which is 19% (he is an apprentice). I think you'd be hard pressed to find too many people in Aus / NZ / UK / Norway etc who would be willing to give up our higher tax rate and "free" healthcare for the alternative. |
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Post by pjaye on Apr 6, 2023 0:37:11 GMT
How is your daughter doing today?
Did her surgery go well? Much pain?
I can't remember if she still lives with you? or is she staying with you for a while?
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