snyder
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,321 
Location: Colorado
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Post by snyder on Oct 8, 2024 14:44:57 GMT
Glad he is not signing. If your SiL has POA, can she change the will so the house is in her name? I don't know. She was trying to have DH sign a Life Estate document so he relinquishes his interest in the house (and the other brother would probably have to sign a similar document) and it would go directly to SIL and BIL. It was like an additional document, not an actual change to the will? I understand that, but because he has refused to sign and give up his portion of the estate, she as power of attorney, can hire a lawyer and change your MIL's will to her liking. I really think your hubby needs to contact an estate attorney and see if there is something that can stop her from doing such. Most attorneys provice a free consult appointment.
I'm my mother's POA and I can go right now and have her will changed since she has dementia.
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Rhondito
Pearl Clutcher
MississipPea
Posts: 4,826
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Post by Rhondito on Oct 8, 2024 14:49:56 GMT
I'm not a lawyer, but google says a POA can't change a person's will?
But there's this:
I know someone who blew through their father's money and there was nothing left for him to pay for his nursing care.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 8, 2024 15:03:18 GMT
Yes the POA can deplete assets. There would be consequences if challenged.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Oct 8, 2024 16:11:24 GMT
I don't know. She was trying to have DH sign a Life Estate document so he relinquishes his interest in the house (and the other brother would probably have to sign a similar document) and it would go directly to SIL and BIL. It was like an additional document, not an actual change to the will? Just had a thought... IF BIL is included in meeting you should be there too. They are 'newlyweds?' You and DH are long term...??just celebrated our 24th wedding anniversary yesterday! I was at first offended that they only spoke to DH, but it was honestly probably better that I wasn't included. I do not feel the same way as DH, but at the end of the day, it is his mom, his family... and me yapping in his ear about my opinion towards the matter was not helping anything. Once it got to the point of me concerned about paying for MIL's care, that's what I got vocal about. She has to be the priority... |
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Post by Bridget in MD on Oct 8, 2024 16:14:10 GMT
I'm not a lawyer, but google says a POA can't change a person's will?
But there's this:
I know someone who blew through their father's money and there was nothing left for him to pay for his nursing care.
This is good info. I will mention it to DH. He does seem to have a good, communicative relationship with his sister, so he is approaching this as he wants no risk to his mom, and then secondly, no risk to his sister either. |
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 8, 2024 18:26:43 GMT
I'm not a lawyer, but google says a POA can't change a person's will?
But there's this:
I know someone who blew through their father's money and there was nothing left for him to pay for his nursing care.
This is my understanding too. My sister and I were joint POA for our mom when she had Alzheimer’s. We would not have been able to do anything with the will at that point because mom was no longer of sound mind but we did have the ability to move her money around, pay her bills, buy groceries, clothing, etc. Since I handled most of the financial stuff, I made a point to keep all of my siblings totally in the loop with everything I was doing, paying for, etc. so there would be no questions after the fact. Which is why I got so butthurt after my mom passed away because my idiot sister insisted on looking through all of the checkbook registers and statements going back for at least five years (that she had already seen, mind you), “Just to check to make sure you didn’t spend any of mom’s money on yourself.” (Which was really rich because SHE had already completely pillaged anything of value from the house long before our mom passed. She couldn’t take any money because I was on top of that.) |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 9, 2024 1:03:13 GMT
A POA has a fiduciary duty to protect the individual ie MIL. So yes while in theory they can deplete assets, if it is done for self enrichment vs the best interest of the MIL there are legal and financial consequences. It sounds like the daughter knows this which is why she wanted mom at home to justify the renovations. In reality the MIL is going to blow through these assets barring an unfortunate early death. I'd keep everything civil as perhaps when the sister realizes there is zero financial upside to all this care, she's going to be looking for help from the brother - and it's going to suddenly be everyone's problem when they realize how hard all this is far away and when she needs serious memory care.
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Post by boys5times on Oct 9, 2024 3:15:09 GMT
I’m the dissenter. If SIL is caring for MIL and assuming the burden of taking her to appointments, finding her caregivers, checking to see she is well taken care of and even willing to move her back into the home then she deserves the house and the money. 24 h care in or out of a facility is incredibly expensive and may well eat up all the assets. There might not be a house to inherit if mil stays in a care facility for long. Anyone who has not been the primary caretaker of a parent or elderly relative minimizes what’s involved. Every time you or your dh start to feel bad about money you might be missing out on, remember that no one wakes you up while you’re sleeping to help mil to the bathroom or update you because she fell. You’re not taking off work to get her to a doctor’s appointment. Those things are worth more than money, imho I totally agree. If you & dh, or one of her other kids aren't willing to take this on, I'd be thanking her. |
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 9, 2024 4:01:27 GMT
I’m the dissenter. If SIL is caring for MIL and assuming the burden of taking her to appointments, finding her caregivers, checking to see she is well taken care of and even willing to move her back into the home then she deserves the house and the money. 24 h care in or out of a facility is incredibly expensive and may well eat up all the assets. There might not be a house to inherit if mil stays in a care facility for long. Anyone who has not been the primary caretaker of a parent or elderly relative minimizes what’s involved. Every time you or your dh start to feel bad about money you might be missing out on, remember that no one wakes you up while you’re sleeping to help mil to the bathroom or update you because she fell. You’re not taking off work to get her to a doctor’s appointment. Those things are worth more than money, imho I totally agree. If you & dh, or one of her other kids aren't willing to take this on, I'd be thanking her. But the MIL is currently in a group home where she is being cared for 24/7, and from my perspective, at a very reasonable cost for round the clock care. The MIL’s assets are there to provide the funds for her care, not to guarantee that someone else will have money (or a house) at the end to inherit. IMO the SIL is fooling herself if she thinks she will be able to work full time from home and take care of her mom full time concurrently, especially as the mom’s condition worsens. She’s setting herself up for failure. As someone who has already been down this road, I know firsthand how the story goes. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 9, 2024 9:08:23 GMT
I totally agree. If you & dh, or one of her other kids aren't willing to take this on, I'd be thanking her. But the MIL is currently in a group home where she is being cared for 24/7, and from my perspective, at a very reasonable cost for round the clock care. The MIL’s assets are there to provide the funds for her care, not to guarantee that someone else will have money (or a house) at the end to inherit. IMO the SIL is fooling herself if she thinks she will be able to work full time from home and take care of her mom full time concurrently, especially as the mom’s condition worsens. She’s setting herself up for failure. As someone who has already been down this road, I know firsthand how the story goes. There's a massive disconnect that SS is covering her current care if the OP is correct 24/7 memory care. Obviously, I'm an outside party and have zero idea what's really going on, but I've seen 4 family members now go through this - it's mind boggling expensive. The OP is seeing this from the outside - it's going to get very, very bad and very, very expensive. To be clear, I wouldn't sign anything the SIL is suggesting, but also to be clear - no one should be thinking anyone is getting assets here- at the end of the day, it's going to be a story of damn my MIL needs $$$$$ what do I do. |
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twinsmomfla99
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,099
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on Oct 9, 2024 9:44:40 GMT
I don't know. She was trying to have DH sign a Life Estate document so he relinquishes his interest in the house (and the other brother would probably have to sign a similar document) and it would go directly to SIL and BIL. It was like an additional document, not an actual change to the will? I understand that, but because he has refused to sign and give up his portion of the estate, she as power of attorney, can hire a lawyer and change your MIL's will to her liking. I really think your hubby needs to contact an estate attorney and see if there is something that can stop her from doing such. Most attorneys provice a free consult appointment.
I'm my mother's POA and I can go right now and have her will changed since she has dementia.
In some states, the POA has to specifically state that it can be used to change inheritance. It is not an implied power. Changing inheritance includes things like changing beneficiaries on a life insurance policy or how an account is titled (i.e. changing bank or investment account to joint with survivorship). |
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twinsmomfla99
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,099
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on Oct 9, 2024 10:19:31 GMT
Is anyone living in the house now? If MIL really isn’t in a position to move back, then it should not be sitting vacant (they are just asking for a squatter takeover in that situation).
As POA, SIL has a fiduciary obligation to make the estate productive so MIL does not deplete her assets that are needed for her care. (And yes, “estate” is the correct term and does not apply only to assets after death as someone stated in an earlier post.)
A vacant house is not a productive asset and should either be sold and the proceeds reinvested in MIL’s name or rented with the rental income reinvested or used to pay for care.
SIL could move in rent free for taking care of the home and overseeing MIL’s care, but the market value of the rent would be considered income to her.
I know it can be difficult to bear the burden of being the only sibling overseeing care in a facility, but free housing should more than cover that. If the house is never sold to provide for MIL’s care, SIL can buy out your husband’s share when settling the estate.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Oct 9, 2024 11:38:49 GMT
Is anyone living in the house now? If MIL really isn’t in a position to move back, then it should not be sitting vacant (they are just asking for a squatter takeover in that situation). As POA, SIL has a fiduciary obligation to make the estate productive so MIL does not deplete her assets that are needed for her care. (And yes, “estate” is the correct term and does not apply only to assets after death as someone stated in an earlier post.) A vacant house is not a productive asset and should either be sold and the proceeds reinvested in MIL’s name or rented with the rental income reinvested or used to pay for care. SIL could move in rent free for taking care of the home and overseeing MIL’s care, but the market value of the rent would be considered income to her.
I know it can be difficult to bear the burden of being the only sibling overseeing care in a facility, but free housing should more than cover that. If the house is never sold to provide for MIL’s care, SIL can buy out your husband’s share when settling the estate.I agree with all of this. no one is living in the house now, SIL & BIL go up every other weekend and maintain the lawn, etc. When my inlaws moved to the group home, DH had hired a lawn crew, but SIL & BIL said they wanted to take over the maintenance of the house. There was a car that my ILs owned that was sold, and the money was supposedly put back into the estate, and this was about the time when Dh told them he had no interest in the house, and they told him they would be interested in it eventually. It is only recently (I think bc of their rent they are paying/leases ending) that they have said they wanted to actually to live in there, and bring MIL there with them but to do that, they needed to renovate the bathroom for her, and then they wanted to finish off the basement for themselves - I think the plan would be for MIL and the caregiver they hire to be upstairs, and they would live/work in the basement. But they didn't want to put money in towards the basement renovation unless they owned the home. That is where this paper came from, where I saw red flags everywhere, and brought the issue to the peas. "If the house is never sold to provide for MIL’s care, SIL can buy out your husband’s share when settling the estate." yep, or he can give her his portion, which is what he wants to do. |
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Post by jill8909 on Oct 9, 2024 14:16:16 GMT
What the law says (it varies among states) and the reality of what happens and how much lawyers cost to challenge what our families do are 2 different things
Your husband should figure out his bottom line priorities - that his mom is cared for properly, that he inherits his fare share, etc and IF you can afford it get a lawyer. Otherwise, I would say my peace and move on.
Money breaks up a lot of families
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 9, 2024 15:10:28 GMT
I agree with all of this. no one is living in the house now, SIL & BIL go up every other weekend and maintain the lawn, etc. When my inlaws moved to the group home, DH had hired a lawn crew, but SIL & BIL said they wanted to take over the maintenance of the house. There was a car that my ILs owned that was sold, and the money was supposedly put back into the estate, and this was about the time when Dh told them he had no interest in the house, and they told him they would be interested in it eventually. It is only recently (I think bc of their rent they are paying/leases ending) that they have said they wanted to actually to live in there, and bring MIL there with them but to do that, they needed to renovate the bathroom for her, and then they wanted to finish off the basement for themselves - I think the plan would be for MIL and the caregiver they hire to be upstairs, and they would live/work in the basement. But they didn't want to put money in towards the basement renovation unless they owned the home. That is where this paper came from, where I saw red flags everywhere, and brought the issue to the peas. "If the house is never sold to provide for MIL’s care, SIL can buy out your husband’s share when settling the estate." yep, or he can give her his portion, which is what he wants to do. Just an added note here for what I bolded above, in my experience having someone come into our mom’s home to provide care was more expensive per hour than having her in the nursing home which was why we ultimately found a nice facility for her. |
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Post by Bridget in MD on Oct 9, 2024 16:16:39 GMT
I agree with all of this. no one is living in the house now, SIL & BIL go up every other weekend and maintain the lawn, etc. When my inlaws moved to the group home, DH had hired a lawn crew, but SIL & BIL said they wanted to take over the maintenance of the house. There was a car that my ILs owned that was sold, and the money was supposedly put back into the estate, and this was about the time when Dh told them he had no interest in the house, and they told him they would be interested in it eventually. It is only recently (I think bc of their rent they are paying/leases ending) that they have said they wanted to actually to live in there, and bring MIL there with them but to do that, they needed to renovate the bathroom for her, and then they wanted to finish off the basement for themselves - I think the plan would be for MIL and the caregiver they hire to be upstairs, and they would live/work in the basement. But they didn't want to put money in towards the basement renovation unless they owned the home. That is where this paper came from, where I saw red flags everywhere, and brought the issue to the peas. "If the house is never sold to provide for MIL’s care, SIL can buy out your husband’s share when settling the estate." yep, or he can give her his portion, which is what he wants to do. Just an added note here for what I bolded above, in my experience having someone come into our mom’s home to provide care was more expensive per hour than having her in the nursing home which was why we ultimately found a nice facility for her. oh absolutely, and if the caregiver has to call out - then you have to be the caregiver. I am not sure they have considered that. |
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caangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,705
Location: So Cal
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Post by caangel on Oct 9, 2024 16:20:03 GMT
Are they interested in living there rent free without any expensive renovations?
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Post by Bridget in MD on Oct 9, 2024 17:16:49 GMT
Are they interested in living there rent free without any expensive renovations? I am not sure, that is something DH brought up to them on their last phone call. They need to decide that. |
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Post by mom on Oct 9, 2024 17:30:39 GMT
I will be honest. IMHO your DH needs to get more involved than he wants to. He needs to be seeing actual bills, bank anccounts and getting health reports (at least every few months) from his mom’s dr. There are so many red flags in what you are saying SIL is saying/doing. I would be willing to bet MIL financials are not where they should be or where your husband thinks they are. There is funny business going on. With DH’s job, I hear so many versions of what’s posted here.
I know your husband doesn’t want to upset his sister, but sister shouldn’t get mad about sharing all the info if it’s on the up and up. It’s not hard to show bills, to show bank accounts where you can see where the money is going. If his moms care is what he truly cares about (and I believe it is), then he cannot make any informed decision without knowing exactly what the financials are and talking with MIL drs to see what her current prognosis is. Sister is too invested in getting her way with the house to be trusted to be giving unbiased information.
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Post by hdoublej on Oct 9, 2024 17:45:47 GMT
My advise is to make sure the sister will actually pay for MIL's care. In our experience (happening right now), the people who were able to make the financial decisions took all the money that was supposed to go for the elderly person's care (who is now 97) and they are now asking everyone else to pitch in and pay for care. While I wouldn't mind to pay for his care if he needed it, it infuriates me to pay for his care when there was a plan in place to pay for it and other family members have robbed him of that money. If your DH agrees to their terms, I would make sure there was a clause included that kept you from being financially responsible for MIL's care if the money runs out. I feel for you because it's a terrible position to be in.
And let me just say that if MIL is in a place that her SS pays for completely, she needs to stay there. Where I live, in home care is expensive and what he receives only pays for about 21 hours a week for someone to come in and clean and make a few meals. That leaves 147 hours a week that has to be paid for out of pocket.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Oct 9, 2024 17:50:12 GMT
I will be honest. IMHO your DH needs to get more involved than he wants to. He needs to be seeing actual bills, bank anccounts and getting health reports (at least every few months) from his mom’s dr. There are so many red flags in what you are saying SIL is saying/doing. I would be willing to bet MIL financials are not where they should be or where your husband thinks they are. There is funny business going on. With DH’s job, I hear so many versions of what’s posted here. I know your husband doesn’t want to upset his sister, but sister shouldn’t get mad about sharing all the info if it’s on the up and up. It’s not hard to show bills, to show bank accounts where you can see where the money is going. If his moms care is what he truly cares about (and I believe it is), then he cannot make any informed decision without knowing exactly what the financials are and talking with MIL drs to see what her current prognosis is. Sister is too invested in getting her way with the house to be trusted to be giving unbiased information. Believe me, I have said the same things to him. He feels it makes more work for SIL to have to provide those updates/summaries, and that it looks like he doesn't trust her. I told him that is not true, and it is easier to be involved more frequently than having to figure everything from scratch. From the start, he told her he will help however she asks, but then she doesn't seem to ask or get DH involved until its in the heat of the battle. For instance, when they recently moved my MIL, she told him that the facility was closing so they had to find a new place. She had basically told him and by the next week had moved MIL to the new facility... so even if DH wanted to help or give input, my SIL had already made the arrangements. I may remind him again that if something were to happen to SIL, he would be taking over, so having all this info and communications is proactive and smart. I feel like it's baby steps with this!!! |
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Post by Bridget in MD on Oct 9, 2024 17:53:30 GMT
My advise is to make sure the sister will actually pay for MIL's care. In our experience (happening right now), the people who were able to make the financial decisions took all the money that was supposed to go for the elderly person's care (who is now 97) and they are now asking everyone else to pitch in and pay for care. While I wouldn't mind to pay for his care if he needed it, it infuriates me to pay for his care when there was a plan in place to pay for it and other family members have robbed him of that money. If your DH agrees to their terms, I would make sure there was a clause included that kept you from being financially responsible for MIL's care if the money runs out. I feel for you because it's a terrible position to be in. You are preaching to the choir, BELIEVE ME!!!!!And let me just say that if MIL is in a place that her SS pays for completely, she needs to stay there. Where I live, in home care is expensive and what he receives only pays for about 21 hours a week for someone to come in and clean and make a few meals. That leaves 147 hours a week that has to be paid for out of pocket. I truly do not understand why they would want to move her in the condition she is in, when she is well cared for where she is now. IMO, there will be no improvement to the quality of her life moving her. It's sad, but she literally just sits there, my DH said the person she was is gone.  |
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snyder
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,321
Location: Colorado
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Post by snyder on Oct 9, 2024 17:56:34 GMT
I understand that, but because he has refused to sign and give up his portion of the estate, she as power of attorney, can hire a lawyer and change your MIL's will to her liking. I really think your hubby needs to contact an estate attorney and see if there is something that can stop her from doing such. Most attorneys provice a free consult appointment.
I'm my mother's POA and I can go right now and have her will changed since she has dementia.
In some states, the POA has to specifically state that it can be used to change inheritance. It is not an implied power. Changing inheritance includes things like changing beneficiaries on a life insurance policy or how an account is titled (i.e. changing bank or investment account to joint with survivorship). We did not have to change a thing of my mothers accounts after we updated her will. We did this about 9 months ago. Maybe you are thinking of a Trust. We did add trustees at one time to my mom's trust after my father passed and yes the bank and life insurance had to be notified/updated. |
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Post by hdoublej on Oct 9, 2024 18:02:49 GMT
My advise is to make sure the sister will actually pay for MIL's care. In our experience (happening right now), the people who were able to make the financial decisions took all the money that was supposed to go for the elderly person's care (who is now 97) and they are now asking everyone else to pitch in and pay for care. While I wouldn't mind to pay for his care if he needed it, it infuriates me to pay for his care when there was a plan in place to pay for it and other family members have robbed him of that money. If your DH agrees to their terms, I would make sure there was a clause included that kept you from being financially responsible for MIL's care if the money runs out. I feel for you because it's a terrible position to be in. You are preaching to the choir, BELIEVE ME!!!!!And let me just say that if MIL is in a place that her SS pays for completely, she needs to stay there. Where I live, in home care is expensive and what he receives only pays for about 21 hours a week for someone to come in and clean and make a few meals. That leaves 147 hours a week that has to be paid for out of pocket. I truly do not understand why they would want to move her in the condition she is in, when she is well cared for where she is now. IMO, there will be no improvement to the quality of her life moving her. It's sad, but she literally just sits there, my DH said the person she was is gone. Yeah, something just doesn't feel right with all of this. I'm so sorry you're dealing with it. If SIL is moving her to different facilities and not communicating that with your DH, I'd want to know the real reason for the move, especially since she lied about it closing. I'm afraid SIL is going to bail once the money runs out and you and your DH will have to figure out how to care for MIL. |
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