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Post by getting started on Oct 6, 2024 19:10:07 GMT
I think this question might be age relevant, so I'll start with I'm 57. I was raised both at home and at school with the 'rule' that if someone isn't included in your plans, you don't discuss it in front of that person. Just out of politeness, not wanting to overtly exclude someone, to avoid hurt feelings etc, we just didn't talk about things in a group that didn't include everyone in the group.
Example as a kid obviously not everyone can be included in every play date or bday party so you would not talk about an upcoming or recently completed event like that if there was a person standing there that hadn't been invited.
Moving on to adult years, there are friend groups, but within the group sometimes a couple people will get together for coffee or a a walk etc. We don't say in front of all 5 friends, person A and I had coffee last week blah blah blah. You just don't say it, and if a topic comes up you might say, oh when I was talking to person A blah blah blah. But you do it in a discreet way so you're not actually naming the time and place you had the conversation.
So here's my question. Recently I have found many groups of friends/clubs don't follow this unspoken politeness 'rule'. So I'm very curious to hear everyone's opinions because the peas usually broaden my mind on topics like this.
Example 1 - at pickleball session with 9 invited players, 6 of those people started talking about creating a new league on a different night, who would run it, who would attend etc. And 3 of us were specifically not included in the planning although we were all standing together. This conversation went on for 10 minutes before play resumed. In this example, I really don't want to be included because I have other activities and don't need another, but I was really surprised that this planning went on for more than a minute or two while the 3 excluded people were standing interspersed among the 6 who were included.
Example 2 - at a restaurant dinner I planned with my sister-in-law and a common friend of ours, SIL talked for a good 15 minutes about how she and the friend's husbands and kids had all gotten together the past weekend at SIL house. Swam in the pool, had dinner, stayed overnight etc. The convo was 'here's what game we played, here's a cute thing the kid did.' Etc. And I wondered since they were both there and I was not. What was the point of talking about something they had both been a part of only a few days earlier? Why go to the effort to talk about it to me? In this case I was hurt a little that they had not included my family. It's not a big deal but it did bother me.
Example 3 - at book club there are 10 members. 5 of them were friends long before the club started and continue to see each other fairly regularly with families outside of the book club. I totally get it. But there are 2-3 of those ladies who will re-hash their latest get together at book club. 'Oh remember when person A did this?' etc. I don't expect to be included in their get togethers but the lack of I don't know - concern for our feelings? self awareness? that bothers me.
So I wonder first of all does this happen to you? Does this even register to you as something to think about?
And for those that it does bother, what- if anything, would you do or say?
I am SO curious how others feel about this. Thanks in advance for sharing.
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Post by librarylady on Oct 6, 2024 19:19:32 GMT
I am of the opinion that it is very rude to talk about events in the situations you have described. If you know person x was not invited, then do not discuss in front of that person.
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Post by pmm on Oct 6, 2024 19:35:31 GMT
I was raised that this behavior is rude and you don't do it.
One of the places I worked, it was common for groups to plan after work dinner plans but not include everyone in the room. It was hurtful.
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Post by KiwiJo on Oct 6, 2024 19:39:08 GMT
I’m with you. I was shocked last week that DH started to talk about a restaurant that a group of us were going to, when we were with a larger group, some of whom were going and some weren’t. It hadn’t occurred to him apparently, that the people not included might feel left out. He doesn’t have great empathetic abilities so perhaps that’s a hallmark of people who do this, that empathy is not one of their main personal values.
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Post by bc2ca on Oct 6, 2024 19:42:45 GMT
Just out of politeness, not wanting to overtly exclude someone, to avoid hurt feelings etc, we just didn't talk about things in a group that didn't include everyone in the group. Wait, what? I'm only allowed to talk about events with my BFF if everyone in the room was invited/had attended. A rule I was not raised on and I was raised on a lot of rules. I wouldn't try to make anyone feel bad, and generally don't plan events to deliberately exclude someone, but it seems really disingenuous IMHO to pretend my life only exists with what the group as a whole has experienced and limit their conversations in the same way. In your first example, were the 3 of you specifically not included because you indicated you weren't interested? Let the others have 10 minutes to hash out a couple things and get back to the game at hand. In the second example, it sounds like they were being open and genuine about sharing their fun weekend. Not to hurt you, but because you are part of their world. In the last example, I expect people in that situation share with others in their tighter friendship group. With 10 people in the room, I would expect side conversations. If they are commanding the whole group to listen to their story, no good, but why wouldn't side conversations be allowed? ETA Yes, I agree with the birthday invite thing and taught my kids not to bring it up at school as not everyone was invited, but I think the examples in the OP are something different. |
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Oct 6, 2024 20:00:12 GMT
I was raised both at home and at school with the 'rule' that if someone isn't included in your plans, you don't discuss it in front of that person. Just out of politeness, not wanting to overtly exclude someone, to avoid hurt feelings etc, we just didn't talk about things in a group that didn't include everyone in the group. I was raised the same. So I wonder first of all does this happen to you? This has happened to me. First, I'll say that I don't go to work to make friends. But it irks me when our store manager will take the same two or three employees out to lunch, or have them lunch delivered. Those employees are on the "in-group" and treated more special and with more leniency than the rest of the employees. A glaring time that I remember being left out in the recent past is when 20+ of my coworkers all went to the restaurant that is next to our work. I heard about it the next day when a bunch of them were talking about how awesome it was, and how they should all do it more often. Only a handful of us coworkers hadn't been invited, and it definitely kinda sucked knowing we were the unwanted ones. And for those that it does bother, what- if anything, would you do or say? I don't say or do anything. I don't want to give anyone the power over me, knowing that it can hurt my feelings. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 6, 2024 20:18:21 GMT
I don't specifically remember this ever being a rule for me. But really hasn't it pretty much gone out the door for you in the era of social media? My friends post all manner of things online. I'll give you an example. My good friend Wendy has a lot of friends. We also have a mutual friend, Marcy. Wendy and Marcy post pics and stuff on social media all the time. It never in a million years would occur to me to think, I can't believe I was excluded from this or Wendy's seen Marcy twice as much as she's seen me.
Social media has pretty much upended all of it. I see friends on Facebook having inside jokes with other friends. I don't expect them to explain them to me or to be a part of it.
Would it have been better if you had seen your friends playing pickleball on Facebook or Instagram? What makes that different?
I am terribly sorry though if your feelings were hurt that you weren't included.
I also wanted to add that I have sat in a couples event many times and had to listen to my husband and his BFF relive high school or last weekends golf game. And I don't find this different either.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 6, 2024 20:32:07 GMT
I was raised that it’s rude to discuss things in front of others if it might be hurtful to them if they are not part of the thing being discussed. I was especially mindful of that myself because as a kid I was often the one who was left out.
This very thing happened recently to DD, twice in a week. She has a group of friends who happen to all be boys that she regularly talks to in group chats and plays online games with, sometimes for hours on end. She is in classes with some of them too. Normally she is included in their conversations just like “one of the guys” even though she’s a girl. Anyway, first one kid on her bus was having a birthday party at his house that was going to include going on the family’s pontoon, swimming, etc. The kids on the bus were talking about the upcoming party in front of her and she was like, “Wait, what? Why didn’t you invite me, J?” His answer was because he said he didn’t know her that well, which was BS because they all were part of the group chats literally all summer long.
Then not more than a week later, another kid (G) in their friend group that she knows much better than the first kid, was also having a birthday party at his house and she wasn’t included in that one either. 😕 This (G) kid, she has had lengthy one on one conversations, watched his stupid Fortnite video streams, and hangs out with him in group chats mostly because he is also good friends with the kid she considers her BFF. She was a lot more hurt by that one because the three of them have hung out together at G’s house. When she asked him why she didn’t get an invite he just said, “You didn’t make the cut.” Ouch. Granted, that one was a sleepover so being the only girl would be an issue, but she thought she could have been invited to the party part and went home before the sleepover. I don’t know. All I know is that she found both of those situations to be hurtful because they were talking about it in front of her and she wasn’t invited even though she has been a part of that friend group for well over a year.
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Post by katlady on Oct 6, 2024 20:45:29 GMT
crazy4scraps I am sorry your daughter is hurt. How old is everyone? The boys could be getting to the age where they are uncomfortable hanging out with a girl in their group. She plays online games and has group chats with them. That is different than physically hanging out with them. I agree with someone above who mentioned that with social media, it is hard to "hide" outings with other friends. I personally try not to talk about other events with people who weren't invited. I don't even post photos of outings with friends, unless the other people in the photo post first. ETA - I just wanted to add my work experience. We have mostly cubicles, and one department is right up against another department. There are a lot of cross-departmental friendships because of how close we are physically. I often see mutual friends heading out to lunch without being invited and the reverse is also true. It is just one of those things where you can't invite everyone all the time. Maybe two friends want to have a private conversation at lunchtime. Maybe it is a spur of the moment thing and you just happen to invite the person standing in front of you at the time. And in our open environment, you hear people talking about events you weren't invited to.
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Post by chaosisapony on Oct 6, 2024 20:45:56 GMT
There's a lot of nuance to these situations that makes me sometimes feel like it's rude and other times feel it's ok. A couple of examples:
1) Last summer friend A and I went to the lake and spent the day there. We had a great time. We are also friends with friend J. Friend J's kids had school that day and so we didn't invite her family because we knew they weren't available. When I next saw friend J I mentioned that A and I had a nice day at the lake, had ice cream, and went out to dinner. J also tells me about things she does with her other friends. Neither of us, to my knowledge, have ever had hurt feelings sharing these details of our lives.
2) A few years ago at work lunchtime came around and I watched the majority of the office stand up and leave at the same time without speaking a word. Out of an office of 16 people 4 of us were left there to work. They all went out to lunch with a retired supervisor who had invited certain people and not others. That was hurtful and caused a lot of resentment between the "in" group and the "out" group even though no one ever talked about it to those of us that weren't invited.
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Post by getting started on Oct 6, 2024 20:54:00 GMT
Just out of politeness, not wanting to overtly exclude someone, to avoid hurt feelings etc, we just didn't talk about things in a group that didn't include everyone in the group. Wait, what? I'm only allowed to talk about events with my BFF if everyone in the room was invited/had attended. A rule I was not raised on and I was raised on a lot of rules. I wouldn't try to make anyone feel bad, and generally don't plan events to deliberately exclude someone, but it seems really disingenuous IMHO to pretend my life only exists with what the group as a whole has experienced and limit their conversations in the same way. In your first example, were the 3 of you specifically not included because you indicated you weren't interested? Let the others have 10 minutes to hash out a couple things and get back to the game at hand. In the second example, it sounds like they were being open and genuine about sharing their fun weekend. Not to hurt you, but because you are part of their world. In the last example, I expect people in that situation share with others in their tighter friendship group. With 10 people in the room, I would expect side conversations. If they are commanding the whole group to listen to their story, no good, but why wouldn't side conversations be allowed? ETA Yes, I agree with the birthday invite thing and taught my kids not to bring it up at school as not everyone was invited, but I think the examples in the OP are something different. I do appreciate your response. I guess my examples are not about a person and their BFF but about a group of friends where everyone is on the same level. Or that's my thought but if people are excluded, maybe we're not all the 'same'. In your first example, were the 3 of you specifically not included because you indicated you weren't interested? >No we were not asked if we were interested and not included when they were naming people to invite. In the second example, it sounds like they were being open and genuine about sharing their fun weekend. Not to hurt you, but because you are part of their world. >ok, this is a different perspective than I had. Thanks for sharing. If they are commanding the whole group to listen to their story, no good, but why wouldn't side conversations be allowed? >yes, that's it. The whole room listens to the conversation because they are talking across the room to each other. |
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Post by getting started on Oct 6, 2024 20:57:09 GMT
I don't specifically remember this ever being a rule for me. But really hasn't it pretty much gone out the door for you in the era of social media? My friends post all manner of things online. Social media has pretty much upended all of it. I see friends on Facebook having inside jokes with other friends. I don't expect them to explain them to me or to be a part of it. Thanks for sharing. Maybe social media has led to this change because yes, it would be the same to me if I saw photos on social where my friends are there but I'm not. However my friend/club groups have all pretty much stopped posting that kind of thing on social. They post family photos but not friend photos and I did kind of wonder why this changed but forgot all about it. There used to be all kinds of friend photos on social but I haven't seen that in 2-3 years now. It's like everyone changed their posting behaviour. |
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Post by KiwiJo on Oct 6, 2024 20:58:06 GMT
jeremysgirl - I think that posting things on social media is a little bit different because it gives the reader time to process the thing on their own. But when you’re physically with a group of people, I do think it is unthinking and rude to talk about something that only a few of you did, or will do, together. It puts the excluded people in a spot where, if they feel hard done by, they need to pretend they are ok or act as if they don’t care. To me, it shows a lack of thinking about other people. bc2ca - of course you and you BFF can talk about something you did together, even when in a room full of other people. But in a group of, say, 8 friends I think it would be rude for 5 of you to talk about something you did together but which excluded the other 3. It’s not a matter of pretending your life only exists within the context of the whole group, it’s more about choosing what to discuss within the whole group so that some don’t feel left out. The 5 of you can talk about it when the other 3 aren’t around. Of course, it’s different if those 3 who didn’t participate were given the opportunity to attend but refused for whatever reason, because then they weren’t excluded. . . . ETA - I think a large part of whether it’s rude or not, depends on the numbers involved. If the people who did the activity are in the minority then it’s more ok to talk about it within the group. But if the number of people who took part are the majority, then it is likely to feel very exclusionary to the few people who weren’t included.
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Post by Zee on Oct 6, 2024 21:04:16 GMT
I'm not sure that your examples would bother me.
The other day I saw that several of the young ones at work went out for drinks together. I don't expect to be invited to everything but I do appreciate an invite to things like baby showers for the girls I'm close to. That would hurt my feelings a bit if EVERYONE else was invited, I'll be honest, but I'll live. And I would figure that we're obviously not that close after all.
I felt a little sad about not being included for drinks, ONLY because I used to be the life of the party but now I'm old and would rather stay home. Haha I'm now officially Lame.
It's ok though--no one really wants to be a 50 year old "party girl". And they probably rightly figured that I would feel a little old hanging out with 23-35 year olds at a bar!
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Post by getting started on Oct 6, 2024 21:11:59 GMT
I "liked" everyone's post as a 'thanks for sharing'. I do like hearing different perspectives. And to those of you who shared times you and your kids were hurt, I'm sorry.
Each of the times I named, I didn't say or do anything. I put a smile on my face that I hope said "I'm interested in you" but I also was wondering in that same moment, what could I say to nudge the conversation in a more inclusive path? I feel like the world has opened up to a place where people more easily share their feelings and issues but I feel like this isn't a serious problem and maybe saying anything just makes me look bad. Like I couldn't put up with a little discomfort. When what I really want is to share how I feel so that there is a chance the situation will change. Like if I don't say anything then how can I expect anything different next time?
I appreciate your perspectives because maybe it's me. Maybe I should be able to smile and move on. I can do the smiling part, but I haven't moved on obviously.
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Tearisci
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,249
Nov 6, 2018 16:34:30 GMT
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Post by Tearisci on Oct 6, 2024 21:19:02 GMT
It hurts to be excluded, hands down.
I've had two recent events that I was excluded from. The first was a concert that my siblings booked for ELO and because I wasn't there that night, they didn't think of me. When I was there, they were talking about it and I'm like, you didn't think to include me? I love that band. I ended up storming out because we go see everything together and my BIL was kind of being a dick about it because he had been drinking. Needless to say, they bought me a ticket and I'm going.
The second is with a friend of my sister's. We are socially close but not extremely close. Her DH was having a 50th anniversary party for his parents and everyone was invited except for me, including my siblings that aren't as close to them. It was some frou frou event so I didn't really want to go anyway but it still sucked to not be included.
I'll validate you OP and I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
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Just T
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,884 
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Post by Just T on Oct 6, 2024 21:32:20 GMT
I admit, I am one who has in the past gotten my feelings hurt by similar things. As I've gotten older, not so much. But I still have my moments.
I actually had one recently.
My friend that I am spending a lot of time at her house until my divorce is final started a game night a few weeks ago with a group of her friends. She included me in the group, and it's been fun meeting new people at this time of my life. It's a very diverse group, but the all know each other, some for years. Some of them, their husbands have worked for the same company. Several of the gals live in my friend's neighborhood. They have all been very nice and welcoming to me every week when we get together, but something came up last week, that I felt a bit uncomfortable. Apparently, one of the ladies has a big Halloween party every year, and they started all talking about what they are dressing up as, etc. I certainly didn't expect to be invited. I just met them all 4 weeks ago. I just felt a bit odd I guess sitting there while they were all talking about this party. I don't think they were trying to be rude at all, it just came up in conversation.
I do try really hard to not get my feelings hurt in situations where I feel left out, unless someone says something like, "Oh, i didn't even think to invite you!" Then, I admit I do feel pretty crappy. But, I would never ever say anything and just keep my feelings to myself.
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Just T
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,884
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Post by Just T on Oct 6, 2024 21:36:18 GMT
I should also say that part of the reason I think I get my feelings hurt over things like this is because I had this one shitty friend in grade/middle school who was part of the "popular girl" crowd, and while she and I were good friends, I wasn't part of that crowd. She would often call me when she was at their slumber parties, or after their fun things they did, to almost 'gloat' about it. At least that's how it seemed to my adolescent mind. LOL I moved a lot when I was a kid and had a hard time making friends, so I always felt so left out when she would do things like that. My 60 year old self has to often say to myself, JustT you're not 12 anymore. LOL
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Post by librarylady on Oct 6, 2024 21:55:35 GMT
I became a librarian as a third career.
One day I overheard teachers making plans for drinks after school and was hurt because I was not included. A few days later, I realized that I was the old lady to them and when I was in my 20s or 30s I would have excluded the "old lady" -- and I felt better about them and myself.
Sometimes it is more circumstances than other things.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 6, 2024 22:48:32 GMT
I don't specifically remember this ever being a rule for me. But really hasn't it pretty much gone out the door for you in the era of social media? My friends post all manner of things online. Social media has pretty much upended all of it. I see friends on Facebook having inside jokes with other friends. I don't expect them to explain them to me or to be a part of it. Thanks for sharing. Maybe social media has led to this change because yes, it would be the same to me if I saw photos on social where my friends are there but I'm not. However my friend/club groups have all pretty much stopped posting that kind of thing on social. They post family photos but not friend photos and I did kind of wonder why this changed but forgot all about it. There used to be all kinds of friend photos on social but I haven't seen that in 2-3 years now. It's like everyone changed their posting behaviour. I don't know. Maybe it is a little bit more nuanced. I take issue with KiwiJo idea that this is common among people lacking empathy. I like to think I'm sensitive to the people around me when having conversations about the things that I do with others. Like I said, I do feel bad here that your feelings were hurt in a couple of the circumstances. Sometimes we just feel things and it doesn't matter at all what all the possible explanations and points of view are. Especially in the heat of a particular moment. I'll admit I'm also on the other end of it in one particular case. Well not anymore. But I formerly had a friend who had a real problem with me doing things with other friends. And she expressed it on more than one occasion and I wasn't quite sure what to do with that either. |
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Post by Lexica on Oct 6, 2024 23:15:35 GMT
I know times change and social media has brought both good and bad with it, but manners do not change. I was also taught to never discuss something in front of a person who has not been included. Or if they would have been invited but are not because we know they have a vacation planned and will not be in the area on the party date, say that to them. And in a case like that, if no one else said anything, I know I would speak up and say it to that person, this event is happening when you will be in Hawaii, otherwise, I hope you know you would have been included. I cannot stand the idea of causing a friend or even a coworker any pain. If they are not invited, that’s fine, but you had better not discuss the plans with those uninvited sitting right there with everyone else. It is rude, rude, rude. I can picture my mother explaining why we don’t ask if so and so can stay for dinner while they are standing right there and you don’t discuss plans that a person within earshot is not included. It is mean spirited and absolutely unnecessary. I don’t know why people have changed or perhaps were never taught this, but common sense tells you it is hurtful to that person so don’t do it. If you are in a large group and you need to inform the 6 people invited to your event that the time has changed, then text just those 6 people! I haven’t had this happen to me in recent memory, but I’m sure it must have happened at some point in my life. And I’m sure part of why it hasn’t happened lately is because I have become more of a loner and homebody and I am not in a situation to overhear anything. I also don’t frequent social media. And I abhor all the influencers and people taking selfies everywhere. I think we are creating a generation of very self involved people alongside many people that feel as if they are less than because they are not getting the views and likes that they see others getting. Now, if you have a company and are using your Instagram to showcase your products, that doesn’t bother me at all. That just feels like a modern commercial. But the posts where people show pictures of their duck face, dinner plate, or hair style every day is beyond odd to me. I think all of the examples given in the post are rude, to varying degrees maybe, but still rude. And situation that your daughter just experienced, crazy4scraps , was horribly rude and inconsiderate. Can you imagine what kind of employee and husband these boys are going to grow up to be? Especially if they end up paired with an influencer or selfie queen that needs all the attention to be on them. I really worry about the next generation of children. |
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Post by ScrapbookMyLife on Oct 6, 2024 23:41:51 GMT
I've had it done to me often in my younger years (I know now, that I (we) wasn't invited because now ex-husband is and was an asshole). Back then it hurt my feelings. Now, I completely understand >> the why. No one wanted him around.
These days, doesn't bother me at all if I am not included. I am happy if I am not included, because I don't want to spend money on things *other* people want to do. I only want to spend money on things *I* want to do.
I love my >> me time, quiet time, alone time, etc.... so I am always happy to stay at home.
As I've gotten older, and as I've become me (and I stopped being what someone else expected or who someone else wanted me to be)....I've become very selective about accepting invites and participating in stuff.
These days....
If I am not invited, doesn't hurt my feelings at all.
If others are discussing stuff they did together.......it's in one ear and out the other and with a "glad you had a good time" comment.
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Post by 950nancy on Oct 6, 2024 23:50:14 GMT
I think it is a general rule and not a never do it rule. I would try to be careful of it, but eh, things happen. I also think it is really important to remember that my happiness isn't based on other people. Do I get left out of doing things? Yes. Have I left others out of doing things? Yes. We need to teach our kids to be resilient. If your friends don't treat you well after you have stood up for yourself, find new friends. If you are an adult and have said something about not being invited (say with coworkers), ask yourself if you are the person that others want to hang around with. I am almost 20 years older than my oldest coworker and there are plenty of times I am not included. I also don't get involved with the gossip that they share. Sometimes they just like hanging out with others that are in their current life situation or they just want to gossip. I get it. I felt like that at one point too.
Today I saw pictures on social media of something I would have loved to do that people I am close to were doing. I had to remember that these same people were left out of something they would have probably enjoyed two weeks ago. Sometimes you're the windshield. Sometimes you're the bug.
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Post by melanell on Oct 6, 2024 23:53:19 GMT
Yes, I was raised with that rule. And man alive, I still vividly recall the day when the reason for that rule became very, very apparent to me. I was six.  But, early childhood drama aside, I do agree that social media is almost assuredly the reason this rule has disappeared for some people, even if I don't agree with it happening. Many people showcase every last thing they do on line, and moat people they know wind up seeing and hearing all about it, whether they were included or not. Inevitably people who know everyone involved at an event see an event and realize they weren't invited. Or family learn about some tradition involving other family members that they are not included in. People who live in the same town a person traveled to and haven't seen them in ages, get to see that these people were *right there* and still didn't reach out. I can certainly understand how there could be a mountain of ways in which that kind of sharing can lead to hurt feelings, and I think because it's so prevalent online, people don't think a thing of doing the same thing in real life.  Given how easy it is to be in silent communication with one or 50 people via texts these days, it really seems unnecessary to me for a few people within a larger group to make plans in the midst of the whole group standing around waiting to do a pre-planned activity. But I think people don't even stop to think about it often times anymore. In person social behavior often seems different to me now than it was when I was a child or teen, and this is just one of the differences I notice. Hugs to the OP! |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 6, 2024 23:53:51 GMT
ScrapbookMyLife basically summed up where I am in my life too. Maybe that's why these things don't bother me .I'm pretty darn content to stay home and do my crafts and enjoy my husband. I am selective about spending my time with others so maybe that's why I'm not particularly bothered by these things.
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moodyblue
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,276
Location: Western Illinois
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2014 21:07:23 GMT
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Post by moodyblue on Oct 7, 2024 0:26:16 GMT
My brother and I were just discussing this kind of stuff today. We were raised the way the OP was - you don’t talk about events around people who are/were excluded. And I felt kind of awkward at a neighborhood gathering Friday evening.
For context, I live in a strip of five houses on an avenue, in what I’d call house number two. There are eight detached condos behind us and two to the east of house number one. The houses were here first but the condos went in within the first two years after we built our house. Since then we in the houses and condos have socialized a lot, including every Friday evening during the summer months for several years. Now it’s more like once a month as people have gotten older, and at Christmas and other occasional events.
We had our last gathering of the season on Friday. People were talking about an event that the woman in condo #1 is planning for a big birthday. The others all seem to know about it, but I have never directly heard about it - and coincidently, she and I have the same birthday. This event was also referenced at a couple other gatherings recently, so I know enough to know it’s happening, but no details or date. I was feeling kind of awkward and uncomfortable until I realized that my next-door neighbor was thinking it was this month, in October, rather than November. That made me think that the invitations probably haven’t gone out and maybe I just hadn’t been right there when it was first talked about in the early planning stages. I’m not feeling quite so bad, at least not yet.
The other instance lately is one I’m not sure what to think about. One older couple recently moved out of state, into assisted living near several of their children. I heard enough comments to know that they had some kind of anniversary/going away party that I was not invited to. That stings a bit, as we have been neighbors for over 20 years, and my husband and I were invited to a previous big anniversary party they held. I guess the upside is since they don’t live here now, it may not get talked about much. Awkward if I have to say I wasn’t invited if it comes up that I wasn’t there.
As far as social media goes, I don’t post about much of anything that I’m doing. But I see posts from others who do. I was hurt when I saw pictures from a gathering of retired and current teachers from the district where I taught. I was not invited and it really stung. Then I found out that the person who organized it realized that she had forgotten to invite me, and felt terrible about it. It still stings to be forgotten, especially since she lives just blocks away from me and often drives by my house, even if it was accidental and not intentional.
I’m not sure we ever totally outgrow the negative feelings of being excluded - or forgotten.
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Post by chaosisapony on Oct 7, 2024 0:47:57 GMT
Each of the times I named, I didn't say or do anything. I put a smile on my face that I hope said "I'm interested in you" but I also was wondering in that same moment, what could I say to nudge the conversation in a more inclusive path? I feel like the world has opened up to a place where people more easily share their feelings and issues but I feel like this isn't a serious problem and maybe saying anything just makes me look bad. Like I couldn't put up with a little discomfort. When what I really want is to share how I feel so that there is a chance the situation will change. Like if I don't say anything then how can I expect anything different next time? This is pretty much the conclusion I came to many years ago. If people don't know I'm interested, why would I be hurt when they don't invite me? So I've started instead expressing interest when I hear the plans being made. I've even gone so far as to say "That sounds super fun, can I invite myself?" and I'm always met with enthusiasm and we all wind up having a great time. Like about ten years ago I was at my best friend's house on Halloween handing out candy and her sister in law came over. We're all friendly so I was enjoying the conversation. When her sister in law got ready to leave she mentioned to my bestie that she was going to take a friend of hers out on a trail ride the next day and did she want to join in? I was in the circle standing there while they were making plans and my heart just tanked. Trail riding with friends was something that I've wanted to do my whole life. The SIL happens to be someone that owns may riding horses and my bestie kept her horse there too. I didn't own a trailer to get my horse there but I just saw this opportunity in front of me and blurted out basically "OMG that sounds soooo fun! Can I come too?" SIL said "of course!" and I went and I had one of the best times of my life with those girls. We never had another opportunity to go and now my bestie lives states away. I am so glad I spoke up. |
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 7, 2024 1:49:34 GMT
crazy4scraps I am sorry your daughter is hurt. How old is everyone? The boys could be getting to the age where they are uncomfortable hanging out with a girl in their group. She plays online games and has group chats with them. That is different than physically hanging out with them. These kids are all 14/15 years old. Last year when they all had the same lunch, they would often all sit together. She has been in after school groups with this same whole group of kids and has hung out in person with a few of them several times over the summer so I don’t think it has anything to do with in person vs. online. For the most part she’s just one of the gang. They frequently “ping” her to join in when they’re all online, and some of their conversations get kind of dicey (from a mom POV, lol) and they never seem to have any issue then with the fact that she’s a girl. ETA: Things are VERY different with these kids today compared to when I was her age. These boys have no problem calling her just to talk about stuff and she doesn’t think anything of calling them. It’s nothing like when I was in high school and it was a big deal if some boy called you even if you were just friends. FWIW, she said she would have been fine with it if the second kid would have invited her for just the daytime part of the party and she had to go home when the sleepover part started. She was hurt because she, her BFF (who is also a boy) and this kid frequently have had long private conversations together separate from the whole group so she felt like he was one of her better friends. Guess not. 😔 |
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Post by bc2ca on Oct 7, 2024 2:32:41 GMT
I'm confused about the way the word "excluded" is being used in this thread, especially in the OP. Excluded is not the same as "not included". One is an overt act to deny access and one is the less sinister (IMHO) left out. The only example of someone being excluded is probably crazy4scraps's DD. And that one is a little tougher because of the girl/boy dynamic and age. It is also confusing when people share very real hurts that are the opposite of each other. Especially in the work place. You can't tell employees not to have lunch with each other or not to talk about a restaurant or that they have to invite the whole group if they go to a restaurant. So what is the solution? I do think there are ways to nudge a conversation to be more inclusive, getting started. If someone is talking about a restaurant, I'm always looking for new places to try and would use the conversation to ask about it. If they are talking about an event/concert. etc., ask what their favorite sources for finding out who is coming to town/what events are coming up. Or who are the bands/performers you would love to see. What was your favorite all time concert. What was your first concert? |
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Post by Texas Scrap on Oct 7, 2024 3:13:57 GMT
I think there is nuance to when and where this is hurtful. You can’t control for everyone’s feelings all of the time. But I will use a group of friends I have as an example where I think we try to be considerate about inclusion. We are friends - 8 of us - because our college girls, who are seniors now. All but one are in the same sorority and we met at bid day freshman year. Another mom - her daughter because roommates with 3 of the girls sophomore year. We get together for lunch once every month or so, have a group text chat and have done 2 mom weekends. And some of the girls are roommates, but the girls do not do everything together. And same for the moms. it has been so fun to have a group of moms at this stage of parenting that share a similar experience and have our girls all be friends  . So when we get together, it could be easy for some people to be sensitive to hearing about things that maybe their kid was not involved with or a time when a subset of moms were together. No one is walking on eggshells, but by the same token, if we know not all of the girls/or moms were at or included in something, we may mention it in passing, but when we are all together, we do not talk about it at length knowing it is not a shared experience. The whole point of being together is to enjoy each other. In that example, I am thinking about when we are all together at a lunch we want the conversation to be included. That is different than, say, at a PTO meeting, or at a party or even work. In your examples where people are planning something that does not include everyone, I would have expected people to do that over text with the people included. I don’t expect you to include me in everything, but if we are friends, I would think you would be courteous and kind about what you talk about in front of me. |
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