raindancer
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,095
Jun 26, 2014 20:10:29 GMT
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Post by raindancer on May 20, 2015 14:58:59 GMT
This is one of the reasons I am so against organized religion. I came across this image today, referencing the newest completed LDS temple. There are almost 150 of these buildings worldwide, and this is one of 17 in Utah alone. (I haven't verified the stats on this, but they don't seem unrealistic to me.) They've recently announced plans to build a temple in Haiti, which sickens me. I just cannot believe that the money will be spent on that, rather than helping to meet basic human needs in an area that desperately needs it. Seriously? Haiti? I will NOT bite my tongue to my family if this goes forward. What an insult. What an awful, disgusting slap in the face to humanity. Though I don't know why I'm surprised. Which should be the real issue for religious people. That we aren't surprised when they not only do this shit but justify it in the name of some supposedly all knowing, all loving entity. In Port au Prince, Haiti following the earthquake, there were over 208,000 cases of cholera. We can directly correlate these numbers to be due to the complete lack of infrastructure. And this is JUST cholera. Compared to the US following Katrina, that number is astronomical. There were 21 cases in the entire region following that flooding. That's over 30/1000 person years in Haiti compared to just .06/1000 person years in the US. (This is my personal research with adjusted population values, adjusted for age) They need water, sewage systems, water treatment plants, pipelines to deliver the water, they need housing, they need streets. They don't need a mormon temple.
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raindancer
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,095
Jun 26, 2014 20:10:29 GMT
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Post by raindancer on May 20, 2015 15:00:54 GMT
I have come back to this over and over. I still don't know what the hell you are trying to say here and what the wink is for. Seriously. It just sounds so cold and so f'cking callous. I don't really even know how to address this comment. Since the Kardashians make millions being/doing nothing, then it somehow makes sense that your church takes 10% from even it's most poverty stricken members, to build a *mall*, a multi-BILLION dollar mall, ok? And don't you dare tell me that the church didn't use tithing money, because even though it wasn't "technically" tithing money, it was invested money *from* tithing that got them there. So semantics aren't necessary. And it does "take" the money, since without payment you are not a "worthy" member in full standing. I wink at the idea of worshipping at City Creek mall. It's pretty amazing, and I've only been there briefly one time. I could spend lots of time there! It's an investment. Somewhere to put the church's money. What would you like them to invest it in? And, since you don't pay tithing, why do you even get an opinion? Sure, they own a mall. But they also took care of me when I was a 19 year old widow. My point about the Kardashians is that people spend their money on all kinds of things. I spend my money on something different than you do. I like expensive makeup but I'm a pretty serious bargain grocery shopper. Someone is lining the Kardashian pockets with lots and lots of money. Someone is building a giant Methodist church. *shrug* You are truly shameful. And also not very good at developing a sound and valid argument about pretty much anything I can see. I'm done. You go on with your bad self, and support the rich white guys buying up malls and property with 10% of your income. Have fun with that.
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on May 20, 2015 15:05:03 GMT
I have come back to this over and over. I still don't know what the hell you are trying to say here and what the wink is for. Seriously. It just sounds so cold and so f'cking callous. I don't really even know how to address this comment. Since the Kardashians make millions being/doing nothing, then it somehow makes sense that your church takes 10% from even it's most poverty stricken members, to build a *mall*, a multi-BILLION dollar mall, ok? And don't you dare tell me that the church didn't use tithing money, because even though it wasn't "technically" tithing money, it was invested money *from* tithing that got them there. So semantics aren't necessary. And it does "take" the money, since without payment you are not a "worthy" member in full standing. I wink at the idea of worshipping at City Creek mall. It's pretty amazing, and I've only been there briefly one time. I could spend lots of time there! It's an investment. Somewhere to put the church's money. What would you like them to invest it in? And, since you don't pay tithing, why do you even get an opinion? Sure, they own a mall. But they also took care of me when I was a 19 year old widow. My point about the Kardashians is that people spend their money on all kinds of things. I spend my money on something different than you do. I like expensive makeup but I'm a pretty serious bargain grocery shopper. Someone is lining the Kardashian pockets with lots and lots of money. Someone is building a giant Methodist church. *shrug* I get an opinion because I vote and the government has seen fit to make those tithes tax-free. FTR, I also have an opinion on how the Kardashians spend their money but since it's after-tax money, I don't quite care as much.
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,580
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
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Post by stittsygirl on May 20, 2015 15:14:15 GMT
I wink at the idea of worshipping at City Creek mall. It's pretty amazing, and I've only been there briefly one time. I could spend lots of time there! It's an investment. Somewhere to put the church's money. What would you like them to invest it in? And, since you don't pay tithing, why do you even get an opinion? Sure, they own a mall. But they also took care of me when I was a 19 year old widow. My point about the Kardashians is that people spend their money on all kinds of things. I spend my money on something different than you do. I like expensive makeup but I'm a pretty serious bargain grocery shopper. Someone is lining the Kardashian pockets with lots and lots of money. Someone is building a giant Methodist church. *shrug* You are truly shameful. And also not very good at developing a sound and valid argument about pretty much anything I can see. I'm done. You go on with your bad self, and support the rich white guys buying up malls and property with 10% of your income. Have fun with that. Jenkate's attitude is why the business leaders that head the LDS corporation get away with building multi-billion dollar malls, spending only a very small percentage of their enormous wealth on humanitarian aid, and hiding their finances from their membership. It's such a scam, and it doesn't say much about the character of those who try to defend it, and especially those who seem proud of it. What would you like them to invest it in? Really? I wonder if Jesus likes his mall. I hear the retractable roof is awesome.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 17, 2024 21:58:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 15:31:47 GMT
Couple of things really struck me here. One: We regularly see posts on this forum from non-Christians stating that Christians have no right to "judge" anyone. The old "judge not that ye be not judged" text is quoted fairly regularly (even though the context is completely misused). But here we have many Peas quite happily judging Christians for spending THEIR money how they please. Interesting I think. Maybe even hypocritical.Two: While I am not a fan of huge amounts being spent on mega-churches, I still have to wonder if those of you who are saying God would NEVER approve of such spending have ever actually read the Bible! Because if you have you would be familiar with both the Wilderness Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple (and later Herod's Temple which is the temple Jesus taught in). Both the Wilderness Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple were built with EXACT directions from God--right down the the minute detail. Might want to check out cost of both of those. Makes a mere $93 million look puny. And remember--these temples were designed directly BY God, Himself. Moses (and later David and Solomon) followed blueprints laid down by God. I mean we're talking solid gold walls and fixtures, piles of jewels, etc. etc. Herod's temple which was considered far inferior to Solomon's was one of the wonders of the world in its magnificence and glory. One can only wonder what Solomon's temple looked like! And most certainly God must have approved of this as the Shekinah glory rested in the Most Holy Place until the day of Christ's crucifixion. Jesus, Himself, taught in that temple frequently! And there were plenty of poor people in Jerusalem during that time--yet Christ never said a single admonishing word about the temple being too expensive. Reading some of the comments here, I have been reminded of the horror of some of the disciples (Judas) when Mary poured the perfume on Jesus' feet. That perfume was worth more than a year's wages! And some of the disciples complained that many poor could have been fed for the cost of that perfume. Seems to me that Jesus completely disagreed with them. I don't think God disapproves of magnificent structures being built to honor Him. The hypocrisy is all on your end. Non-Christians are not the ones walking around claiming that they refrain from judging because "god" or their holy book tells them to. As for god himself demanding, designing, and approving of the hideously wasteful and extravagant temples and monuments:
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on May 20, 2015 15:51:51 GMT
Couple of things really struck me here. One: We regularly see posts on this forum from non-Christians stating that Christians have no right to "judge" anyone. The old "judge not that ye be not judged" text is quoted fairly regularly (even though the context is completely misused). But here we have many Peas quite happily judging Christians for spending THEIR money how they please. Interesting I think. Maybe even hypocritical. I don't judge Christians on how they spend their money. I judge churches who are benefiting from their not-for-profit status when they spend like a for-profit business.As an atheist, I don't believe that God would ever approve of such spending. I don't believe that God approves (or disapproves) of anything.TBH, that Bible passage never sat right with me. Sorry, I would have to agree with Judas on that one.
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MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on May 20, 2015 16:10:59 GMT
Extravagant churches just seem so incredibly self serving. And apparently so is the god several people here choose to worship and excuse. Just one of the many reasons I'm unable to believe in such an arrogant, pretentious being - who blesses so arbitrarily and would condone or even demand ostentatious monuments built to his/her/its glory over much more humble places of worship, where the money saved could provide even more tangible relief to those in actual need. Yeah, I'll pass. Please do not think for one moment that these people represent the one true God. The bible has a lot of things to say about the wealthy and very little of it is positive.
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,580
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
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Post by stittsygirl on May 20, 2015 16:22:35 GMT
And apparently so is the god several people here choose to worship and excuse. Just one of the many reasons I'm unable to believe in such an arrogant, pretentious being - who blesses so arbitrarily and would condone or even demand ostentatious monuments built to his/her/its glory over much more humble places of worship, where the money saved could provide even more tangible relief to those in actual need. Yeah, I'll pass. Please do not think for one moment that these people represent the one true God. The bible has a lot of things to say about the wealthy and very little of it is positive. I don't believe in a god, but I do know and respect people who absolutely represent what a benevolent, just, and loving god should act like. If I were a believer, I would still be finished with organized religion though. As "unaffiliated" is the fastest growing group in religion polls of late, it seems many people, even believers, feel the same way.
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Gennifer
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,003
Jun 26, 2014 8:22:26 GMT
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Post by Gennifer on May 20, 2015 17:16:19 GMT
Seriously? Haiti? I will NOT bite my tongue to my family if this goes forward. What an insult. What an awful, disgusting slap in the face to humanity. Though I don't know why I'm surprised. Which should be the real issue for religious people. That we aren't surprised when they not only do this shit but justify it in the name of some supposedly all knowing, all loving entity. In Port au Prince, Haiti following the earthquake, there were over 208,000 cases of cholera. We can directly correlate these numbers to be due to the complete lack of infrastructure. And this is JUST cholera. Compared to the US following Katrina, that number is astronomical. There were 21 cases in the entire region following that flooding. That's over 30/1000 person years in Haiti compared to just .06/1000 person years in the US. (This is my personal research with adjusted population values, adjusted for age) They need water, sewage systems, water treatment plants, pipelines to deliver the water, they need housing, they need streets. They don't need a mormon temple. Yes, seriously. It was announced during April conference, along with Ivory Coast and Thailand.
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Post by greenlegume on May 20, 2015 17:17:50 GMT
Couple of things really struck me here. One: We regularly see posts on this forum from non-Christians stating that Christians have no right to "judge" anyone. The old "judge not that ye be not judged" text is quoted fairly regularly (even though the context is completely misused). But here we have many Peas quite happily judging Christians for spending THEIR money how they please. Interesting I think. Maybe even hypocritical. Two: While I am not a fan of huge amounts being spent on mega-churches, I still have to wonder if those of you who are saying God would NEVER approve of such spending have ever actually read the Bible! Because if you have you would be familiar with both the Wilderness Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple (and later Herod's Temple which is the temple Jesus taught in). Both the Wilderness Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple were built with EXACT directions from God--right down the the minute detail. Might want to check out cost of both of those. Makes a mere $93 million look puny. And remember--these temples were designed directly BY God, Himself. Moses (and later David and Solomon) followed blueprints laid down by God. I mean we're talking solid gold walls and fixtures, piles of jewels, etc. etc. Herod's temple which was considered far inferior to Solomon's was one of the wonders of the world in its magnificence and glory. One can only wonder what Solomon's temple looked like! And most certainly God must have approved of this as the Shekinah glory rested in the Most Holy Place until the day of Christ's crucifixion. Jesus, Himself, taught in that temple frequently! And there were plenty of poor people in Jerusalem during that time--yet Christ never said a single admonishing word about the temple being too expensive.Reading some of the comments here, I have been reminded of the horror of some of the disciples (Judas) when Mary poured the perfume on Jesus' feet. That perfume was worth more than a year's wages! And some of the disciples complained that many poor could have been fed for the cost of that perfume. Seems to me that Jesus completely disagreed with them. I don't think God disapproves of magnificent structures being built to honor Him. Color me confused . . . Christians keep saying that they are not bound by the OT anymore. So why would these stories out of the old testament be used to justify today's megachurches?? When a non-christian quotes an OT bible verse, they are told that the OT no longer applies, but when a christian quotes it, then it's justification for ____________ (megachurches, hating homosexuals, stoning people to death, owning slaves, take your pick of atrocities), then it's following god's instructions? Really? pick and choose . . . pick and choose (a.k.a. cherry-picking)
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Gennifer
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,003
Jun 26, 2014 8:22:26 GMT
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Post by Gennifer on May 20, 2015 17:36:14 GMT
I wink at the idea of worshipping at City Creek mall. It's pretty amazing, and I've only been there briefly one time. I could spend lots of time there! It's an investment. Somewhere to put the church's money. What would you like them to invest it in? And, since you don't pay tithing, why do you even get an opinion? Sure, they own a mall. But they also took care of me when I was a 19 year old widow. My point about the Kardashians is that people spend their money on all kinds of things. I spend my money on something different than you do. I like expensive makeup but I'm a pretty serious bargain grocery shopper. Someone is lining the Kardashian pockets with lots and lots of money. Someone is building a giant Methodist church. *shrug* I'm not Raindancer, but I can tell you why I have an opinion. - I care because I spent 30 years of my life paying tithing.
- I care because even though I no longer do, the majority of my friends and family members still tithe. I've seen one almost lose her house, and many others "blessed" to feed their ever-growing families only through the support of government aid, because they have to tithe before they buy groceries or pay their mortgage. And since Utah is usually one of the states with the highest foreclosure rate (even with one of the strongest job markets in the nation), there's undoubtedly a problem.
- I care because I see many of those same friends and family members bogged down with meetings and church callings (sometimes the equivalent of another full-time job) that take them away from their families, since the church proudly proclaims it has a lay ministry, and even have to clean the church buildings, taking away that income from people who could use it, because the church can't afford to pay for it. Meanwhile, mission presidents and GAs are given "living stipends" that cover multiple million dollar homes within an hour of each other, housekeepers and gardeners, private school tuition, and birthday/anniversary gifts, and are instructed not to disclose this to their accountants at tax time. All tithing-funded.
- I care because those same GAs and mission presidents are overwhelmingly upper middle-class white men from Utah, implying that poor, blue-collar workers from other countries aren't as spiritual or worthy.
- And last, but certainly not least, I care because I am a humanist. As an occupant of this planet, I have a responsibility to the people I share it with, whether that's my neighbor down the street, or someone on the other side of the world. And part of that duty is to do what I can to mitigate destructive, harmful behaviors that are being done to others. That's why I follow the laws, that's why I vote in elections, and that's why I speak out. That's why I get to have an opinion.
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Post by Merge on May 20, 2015 17:41:31 GMT
This is one of the reasons I am so against organized religion. I came across this image today, referencing the newest completed LDS temple. There are almost 150 of these buildings worldwide, and this is one of 17 in Utah alone. (I haven't verified the stats on this, but they don't seem unrealistic to me.) They've recently announced plans to build a temple in Haiti, which sickens me. I just cannot believe that the money will be spent on that, rather than helping to meet basic human needs in an area that desperately needs it. Seriously? Haiti? I will NOT bite my tongue to my family if this goes forward. What an insult. What an awful, disgusting slap in the face to humanity. Though I don't know why I'm surprised. Which should be the real issue for religious people. That we aren't surprised when they not only do this shit but justify it in the name of some supposedly all knowing, all loving entity. In Port au Prince, Haiti following the earthquake, there were over 208,000 cases of cholera. We can directly correlate these numbers to be due to the complete lack of infrastructure. And this is JUST cholera. Compared to the US following Katrina, that number is astronomical. There were 21 cases in the entire region following that flooding. That's over 30/1000 person years in Haiti compared to just .06/1000 person years in the US. (This is my personal research with adjusted population values, adjusted for age) They need water, sewage systems, water treatment plants, pipelines to deliver the water, they need housing, they need streets. They don't need a mormon temple. But how will the Haitians carry on the work of being baptized for dead Holocaust survivors if they don't have a temple of their own?
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scrappinmama
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,883
Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on May 20, 2015 17:44:15 GMT
I wink at the idea of worshipping at City Creek mall. It's pretty amazing, and I've only been there briefly one time. I could spend lots of time there! It's an investment. Somewhere to put the church's money. What would you like them to invest it in? And, since you don't pay tithing, why do you even get an opinion? Sure, they own a mall. But they also took care of me when I was a 19 year old widow. My point about the Kardashians is that people spend their money on all kinds of things. I spend my money on something different than you do. I like expensive makeup but I'm a pretty serious bargain grocery shopper. Someone is lining the Kardashian pockets with lots and lots of money. Someone is building a giant Methodist church. *shrug* I'm not Raindancer, but I can tell you why I have an opinion. - I care because I spent 30 years of my life paying tithing.
- I care because even though I no longer do, the majority of my friends and family members still tithe. I've seen one almost lose her house, and many others "blessed" to feed their ever-growing families only through the support of government aid, because they have to tithe before they buy groceries or pay their mortgage. And since Utah is usually one of the states with the highest foreclosure rate (even with one of the strongest job markets in the nation), there's undoubtedly a problem.
- I care because I see many of those same friends and family members bogged down with meetings and church callings (sometimes the equivalent of another full-time job) that take them away from their families, since the church proudly proclaims it has a lay ministry, and even have to clean the church buildings, taking away that income from people who could use it, because the church can't afford to pay for it. Meanwhile, mission presidents and GAs are given "living stipends" that cover multiple million dollar homes within an hour of each other, housekeepers and gardeners, private school tuition, and birthday/anniversary gifts, and are instructed not to disclose this to their accountants at tax time. All tithing-funded.
- I care because those same GAs and mission presidents are overwhelmingly upper middle-class white men from Utah, implying that poor, blue-collar workers from other countries aren't as spiritual or worthy.
- And last, but certainly not least, I care because I am a humanist. As an occupant of this planet, I have a responsibility to the people I share it with, whether that's my neighbor down the street, or someone on the other side of the world. And part of that duty is to do what I can to mitigate destructive, harmful behaviors that are being done to others. That's why I follow the laws, that's why I vote in elections, and that's why I speak out. That's why I get to have an opinion.
That is really messed up. I'm sorry so many of your friends and family have had to go through that. I wish that they weren't made to feel so pressured into giving what they clearly did not have to give. Just curious, but what happens if they tell their church they aren't going to give? Are they kicked out of their church? I think I would have to respectfully tell my church to shove it if they tried to pull that with me. I was raised Catholic, but no longer a part of the church. I don't remember them ever pressuring us. They passed a basket around during mass, and asked us to buy raffle tickets. That was about it.
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,580
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
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Post by stittsygirl on May 20, 2015 17:45:46 GMT
I wink at the idea of worshipping at City Creek mall. It's pretty amazing, and I've only been there briefly one time. I could spend lots of time there! It's an investment. Somewhere to put the church's money. What would you like them to invest it in? And, since you don't pay tithing, why do you even get an opinion? Sure, they own a mall. But they also took care of me when I was a 19 year old widow. My point about the Kardashians is that people spend their money on all kinds of things. I spend my money on something different than you do. I like expensive makeup but I'm a pretty serious bargain grocery shopper. Someone is lining the Kardashian pockets with lots and lots of money. Someone is building a giant Methodist church. *shrug* I'm not Raindancer, but I can tell you why I have an opinion. - I care because I spent 30 years of my life paying tithing.
- I care because even though I no longer do, the majority of my friends and family members still tithe. I've seen one almost lose her house, and many others "blessed" to feed their ever-growing families only through the support of government aid, because they have to tithe before they buy groceries or pay their mortgage. And since Utah is usually one of the states with the highest foreclosure rate (even with one of the strongest job markets in the nation), there's undoubtedly a problem.
- I care because I see many of those same friends and family members bogged down with meetings and church callings (sometimes the equivalent of another full-time job) that take them away from their families, since the church proudly proclaims it has a lay ministry, and even have to clean the church buildings, taking away that income from people who could use it, because the church can't afford to pay for it. Meanwhile, mission presidents and GAs are given "living stipends" that cover multiple million dollar homes within an hour of each other, housekeepers and gardeners, private school tuition, and birthday/anniversary gifts, and are instructed not to disclose this to their accountants at tax time. All tithing-funded.
- I care because those same GAs and mission presidents are overwhelmingly upper middle-class white men from Utah, implying that poor, blue-collar workers from other countries aren't as spiritual or worthy.
- And last, but certainly not least, I care because I am a humanist. As an occupant of this planet, I have a responsibility to the people I share it with, whether that's my neighbor down the street, or someone on the other side of the world. And part of that duty is to do what I can to mitigate destructive, harmful behaviors that are being done to others. That's why I follow the laws, that's why I vote in elections, and that's why I speak out. That's why I get to have an opinion.
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Gennifer
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,003
Jun 26, 2014 8:22:26 GMT
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Post by Gennifer on May 20, 2015 17:48:09 GMT
But how will the Haitians carry on the work of being baptized for dead Holocaust survivors if they don't have a temple of their own? Well, obviously all those LDS Haitians have loads of extra money sitting around with nothing to spend it on... After all, only "worthy" (aka full-tithe-paying members) can go to the temple.
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Post by jmd74 on May 20, 2015 17:55:09 GMT
Yay! Another bash the LDS church thread! We haven't had one in a while! ( for the record I left the LDS church years ago)
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 17, 2024 21:58:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 17:59:18 GMT
Yay! Another bash the LDS church thread! We haven't had one in a while! ( for the record I left the LDS church years ago) Oh it's much more far reaching than just the LDS. This is a huge issue with many Christian denominations.
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Gennifer
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,003
Jun 26, 2014 8:22:26 GMT
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Post by Gennifer on May 20, 2015 18:00:28 GMT
That is really messed up. I'm sorry so many of your friends and family have had to go through that. I wish that they weren't made to feel so pressured into giving what they clearly did not have to give. Just curious, but what happens if they tell their church they aren't going to give? Are they kicked out of their church? I think I would have to respectfully tell my church to shove it if they tried to pull that with me. I was raised Catholic, but no longer a part of the church. I don't remember them ever pressuring us. They passed a basket around during mass, and asked us to buy raffle tickets. That was about it. Technically, nothing happens. They remain a member of the church, and can still officially be in good standing. However, one of the tenets of belief in the LDS church requires special ordinations and covenants, and they are only performed in these temples. To enter, you have to have a "temple recommend," which is an endorsement from two ecclesiastical leaders. Among other requirements, you must be a "full-tithe" payer, which church leaders have clarified to mean 10% of your income. It's a commonly-held understanding that that means 10% of your gross income ("do you want net or gross blessings?") and also 10% of any cash gifts and bonuses. If you choose not to tithe, you (probably) cannot go to the temple. I say "probably" because there is the chance that your ecclesiastical leaders will give you a recommend regardless, but it's very unlikely and uncommon. This is what made it so that I couldn't attend any of my 7 siblings' weddings, and could only sit outside the temple. Of course, I did have the option to pay 6-months' worth of back tithing so I could attend each one, so it was totally my choice.
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on May 20, 2015 18:01:51 GMT
Yay! Another bash the LDS church thread! We haven't had one in a while! ( for the record I left the LDS church years ago) Just a suggestion but, if the LDS church doesn't want to be bashed, they might try not doing things that make them look like first-class turds.
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Gennifer
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,003
Jun 26, 2014 8:22:26 GMT
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Post by Gennifer on May 20, 2015 18:03:24 GMT
Yay! Another bash the LDS church thread! We haven't had one in a while! ( for the record I left the LDS church years ago) Well, it's pretty hard not to when the thread is about a $93 million dollar church, and the LDS church has almost 150 of those. Or are they somehow off limits to the same criticism? Should we throw stones at only the church in the OP?
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Post by greenlegume on May 20, 2015 18:04:10 GMT
I have come back to this over and over. I still don't know what the hell you are trying to say here and what the wink is for. Seriously. It just sounds so cold and so f'cking callous. I don't really even know how to address this comment. Since the Kardashians make millions being/doing nothing, then it somehow makes sense that your church takes 10% from even it's most poverty stricken members, to build a *mall*, a multi-BILLION dollar mall, ok? And don't you dare tell me that the church didn't use tithing money, because even though it wasn't "technically" tithing money, it was invested money *from* tithing that got them there. So semantics aren't necessary. And it does "take" the money, since without payment you are not a "worthy" member in full standing. I wink at the idea of worshipping at City Creek mall. It's pretty amazing, and I've only been there briefly one time. I could spend lots of time there! It's an investment. Somewhere to put the church's money. What would you like them to invest it in? And, since you don't pay tithing, why do you even get an opinion? Sure, they own a mall. But they also took care of me when I was a 19 year old widow. My point about the Kardashians is that people spend their money on all kinds of things. I spend my money on something different than you do. I like expensive makeup but I'm a pretty serious bargain grocery shopper. Someone is lining the Kardashian pockets with lots and lots of money. Someone is building a giant Methodist church. *shrug* As long as you and your church are milking tax-exempt status on the backs of every tax paying citizen and business entity, I get an opinion. That goes double when you and your church are spending heavily to push laws through that will leave me and other non-Mormons in submission to your religious beliefs. Finally, I get an opinion because the Constitution guarantees me that right.
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scrappinmama
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,883
Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on May 20, 2015 18:04:43 GMT
That is really messed up. I'm sorry so many of your friends and family have had to go through that. I wish that they weren't made to feel so pressured into giving what they clearly did not have to give. Just curious, but what happens if they tell their church they aren't going to give? Are they kicked out of their church? I think I would have to respectfully tell my church to shove it if they tried to pull that with me. I was raised Catholic, but no longer a part of the church. I don't remember them ever pressuring us. They passed a basket around during mass, and asked us to buy raffle tickets. That was about it. Technically, nothing happens. They remain a member of the church, and can still officially be in good standing. However, one of the tenets of belief in the LDS church requires special ordinations and covenants, and they are only performed in these temples. To enter, you have to have a "temple recommend," which is an endorsement from two ecclesiastical leaders. Among other requirements, you must be a "full-tithe" payer, which church leaders have clarified to mean 10% of your income. It's a commonly-held understanding that that means 10% of your gross income ("do you want net or gross blessings?") and also 10% of any cash gifts and bonuses. If you choose not to tithe, you (probably) cannot go to the temple. I say "probably" because there is the chance that your ecclesiastical leaders will give you a recommend regardless, but it's very unlikely and uncommon. This is what made it so that I couldn't attend any of my 7 siblings' weddings, and could only sit outside the temple. Of course, I did have the option to pay 6-months' worth of back tithing so I could attend each one, so it was totally my choice. Now that is really messed up. I really know nothing about LDS, and I'm not someone who wants to belittle anyone for what they believe in. But I could not attend a church that told me I could not have my sister attend my wedding. Hugs to you. That must not have been easy to go through 7 times.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 17, 2024 21:58:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 18:05:02 GMT
Couple of things really struck me here. One: We regularly see posts on this forum from non-Christians stating that Christians have no right to "judge" anyone. The old "judge not that ye be not judged" text is quoted fairly regularly (even though the context is completely misused). But here we have many Peas quite happily judging Christians for spending THEIR money how they please. Interesting I think. Maybe even hypocritical. Two: While I am not a fan of huge amounts being spent on mega-churches, I still have to wonder if those of you who are saying God would NEVER approve of such spending have ever actually read the Bible! Because if you have you would be familiar with both the Wilderness Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple (and later Herod's Temple which is the temple Jesus taught in). Both the Wilderness Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple were built with EXACT directions from God--right down the the minute detail. Might want to check out cost of both of those. Makes a mere $93 million look puny. And remember--these temples were designed directly BY God, Himself. Moses (and later David and Solomon) followed blueprints laid down by God. I mean we're talking solid gold walls and fixtures, piles of jewels, etc. etc. Herod's temple which was considered far inferior to Solomon's was one of the wonders of the world in its magnificence and glory. One can only wonder what Solomon's temple looked like! And most certainly God must have approved of this as the Shekinah glory rested in the Most Holy Place until the day of Christ's crucifixion. Jesus, Himself, taught in that temple frequently! And there were plenty of poor people in Jerusalem during that time--yet Christ never said a single admonishing word about the temple being too expensive.Reading some of the comments here, I have been reminded of the horror of some of the disciples (Judas) when Mary poured the perfume on Jesus' feet. That perfume was worth more than a year's wages! And some of the disciples complained that many poor could have been fed for the cost of that perfume. Seems to me that Jesus completely disagreed with them. I don't think God disapproves of magnificent structures being built to honor Him. Color me confused . . . Christians keep saying that they are not bound by the OT anymore. So why would these stories out of the old testament be used to justify today's megachurches?? When a non-christian quotes an OT bible verse, they are told that the OT no longer applies, but when a christian quotes it, then it's justification for ____________ (megachurches, hating homosexuals, stoning people to death, owning slaves, take your pick of atrocities), then it's following god's instructions? Really? pick and choose . . . pick and choose (a.k.a. cherry-picking) Exactly. I don't get it at all. But I guess we are just dumb non-Christians who can't possibly understand.
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Post by greenlegume on May 20, 2015 18:06:14 GMT
Yay! Another bash the LDS church thread! We haven't had one in a while! ( for the record I left the LDS church years ago) If you think this is just a Mormon bashing thread, then you haven't been paying close enough attention, or you have absolutely no comprehension skills.
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Post by jmd74 on May 20, 2015 18:16:39 GMT
My comprehension skills are fine, thanks. I just see it differently.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 17, 2024 21:58:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 18:19:15 GMT
My comprehension skills are fine, thanks. I just see it differently. See what differently? This thread is clearly discussing many denominations and their extravagant churches.
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Gennifer
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,003
Jun 26, 2014 8:22:26 GMT
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Post by Gennifer on May 20, 2015 18:26:24 GMT
My comprehension skills are fine, thanks. I just see it differently. So... What? You think this thread was created with the church in the OP as a red herring, just so we could get to the real topic of bashing the LDS church? On page 3 or 4 or whatever? If I wanted to have a bashfest, there are a whole lot of other, way more inflammatory things I could post.
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Post by Merge on May 20, 2015 18:33:08 GMT
LDS bashing? No. I could also bring up the Catholic cathedral re-built here to the tune of $49 million despite many Catholics and others living in poverty, the numerous mega churches of various denominations in my city who preach the prosperity gospel and take money from those who can ill afford it to line the pockets of wealthy "pastors," the huge synagogues that operate like an exclusive club and require a hefty annual donation in order to get tickets to high holy day services, the many evangelical congregations who use their tax-exempt money to try to legislate their particular worldview ... and for that matter all the faults, foibles and greed of human beings of every stripe, religious or not.
It's not bashing of a particular religion - its disagreement with a particular practice that actually has nothing to do with the religious beliefs of the people involved.
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on May 20, 2015 18:46:08 GMT
My comprehension skills are fine, thanks. I just see it differently. Cultural bias.
Gennifer and raindancer are speaking about the LDS church because, I presume, that is the church with which they are most familiar. You choose their comments among all of those 'bashing' both the Catholic and Methodist churches because the LDS church is the one that, as a former member, you are most familiar with too.
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Post by gar on May 20, 2015 19:06:48 GMT
My comprehension skills are fine, thanks. I just see it differently. It's not possible to 'see it differently' really......read the thread and the simple fact is that many denominations are spoken about in the same way.
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