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Post by mirabelleswalker on May 23, 2015 19:38:41 GMT
I'm glad I've been taught differently. www.lds.org/topics/abuse?lang=engVictims of abuse should be assured that they are not to blame for the harmful behavior of others. They do not need to feel guilt. If they have been a victim of rape or other sexual abuse, whether they have been abused by an acquaintance, a stranger, or even a family member, victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sexual sin. The victims of abuse in this case were taught that the consolation prize for their loss of innocence and safety was "a mighty spirit."
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tduby1
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,979
Jun 27, 2014 18:32:45 GMT
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Post by tduby1 on May 23, 2015 19:40:57 GMT
These people are so indoctrinated that admitting anything is amiss is terrifying. I will not lie. If I was still inside this movement I would be turning myself into a pretzel trying to make this justified because anything other than that makes you HAVE to re-evaluate everything you were taught your entire life and that's scary. I've been there. Many of us here have. It takes YEARS to shed layer by layer the lies and hypocrisy we have been taught. Whan Jack Schaap took a 16 year old girl over state lines to have sex with her no less than (and possibly more, I don't remember the exact number) 100 people wrote letters to the judge blaming that 16 year old girl as being a hussy, slut and making Mr. Schaap do what he did. These were letters sent to a judge and are a part of the public court records. I read these letters. It was unreal, sick and disgusting. These were people who admitted to having teenaged girls themselves. None of them were able to step back and say, "wow this is sick". I recognize the same symptoms with a few posters here. I have a feeling you may be referring to me as one of the few posters. You couldn't be more wrong. I am not familiar with the Jack Schaap case. However, let me tell you it is not just religious people who blame the girls. I know this for a fact because I was a 16 year old girl that was sexually assualted by my step father for several years. Many people blamed me. Not one person who knew stepped in to help me and it was well known in my family and even in my (small) town. People accused me of seducing him. My mother kicked me out. None of these people were religious. It is not a religious point of view. I never tell anyone this story, and I can't even believe I am telling it here. I know I was not at all at fault. But I don't tell people because it is common in our culture to assume that the girl is to blame or at least partially responsible. It is not just the religious culture that perpetuates this, I can assure you of that. Julie I am sorry about your experience. i never implied it was only a "religious" problem. However, denying it is an epidemic within the fundy religious community is a symptom of belonging to the fundy religious community, exactly as I stated. It's exactly what a "good fundy" should and will do. Just like I said.
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Post by christine58 on May 23, 2015 19:42:42 GMT
To allow him to stay in the same home where the abuse was occurring is just so sickening to me. Someone should have called the Child Abuse Hotline in their state and turned in those stupid ass parents. My heart goes out to his victims. Someone should call the hotline now to protect his children.
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,600
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
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Post by stittsygirl on May 23, 2015 19:45:25 GMT
I'm glad I've been taught differently. www.lds.org/topics/abuse?lang=engVictims of abuse should be assured that they are not to blame for the harmful behavior of others. They do not need to feel guilt. If they have been a victim of rape or other sexual abuse, whether they have been abused by an acquaintance, a stranger, or even a family member, victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sexual sin. Not sure why you're bringing LDS statements into this. Totally unnecessary. She's no doubt responding to me, and I'm not even going to get into it with her. Her experience and my experience as Mormons have always been at odds, and what church leaders say vs. what judgements are often passed by members/leaders can be very different from each other. The church is hopefully progressing positively in their attitudes towards women and their responsibility to keep themselves pure and not to contribute to the impure thoughts/actions of males, but that wasn't my experience growing up in Mormonism. Sorry for any derail.
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tduby1
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,979
Jun 27, 2014 18:32:45 GMT
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Post by tduby1 on May 23, 2015 19:53:07 GMT
I'm glad I've been taught differently. www.lds.org/topics/abuse?lang=engVictims of abuse should be assured that they are not to blame for the harmful behavior of others. They do not need to feel guilt. If they have been a victim of rape or other sexual abuse, whether they have been abused by an acquaintance, a stranger, or even a family member, victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sexual sin. Oh, I wouldn't be so smug. Rest assured official fundy stand is they investigate, they punish, they have empathy for the victims. They will offer "counseling" and help them and never blame them. But that's not the reality. I bet if you looked hard enough you'd find evidence of the same within your own religion. But you'd have to be willing to see it and I suspect you are not.
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Post by pierogi on May 23, 2015 19:54:25 GMT
The judge that ordered this is friendly with the Duggars. Looks like JB called in a few favors.
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Deleted
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Oct 7, 2024 19:44:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 19:54:36 GMT
Not sure why you're bringing LDS statements into this. Totally unnecessary. She's no doubt responding to me, and I'm not even going to get into it with her. Her experience and my experience as Mormons have always been at odds, and what church leaders say vs. what judgements are often passed by members/leaders can be very different from each other. The church is hopefully progressing positively in their attitudes towards women and their responsibility to keep themselves pure and not to contribute to the impure thoughts/actions of males, but that wasn't my experience growing up in Mormonism. Sorry for any derail. Gotcha, and you have nothing to apologize for. Current members of the religious group I grew up in do the exact same thing. Deny and rewrite history, and claim persecution any time their version is challenged. And they also take every opportunity to proselytize. It's a very familiar m.o. There was clearly an agenda with her post, but it just seemed to come out of left field. That's all on her.
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Post by alittleintrepid on May 23, 2015 20:15:17 GMT
Thank you melissa and other who posted those recidivism studies. @jacqab , I did see that link and don't think that Josh can be considered to have had multisystemic therapy. I saw him being in a category of offenders who had a 75% recidivism rate. I actually hope I'm wrong.
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Olan
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Jul 13, 2014 21:23:27 GMT
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Post by Olan on May 23, 2015 20:18:51 GMT
When you get away with your crimeSSSSS and play fucking Bob the Builder for a couple months under the supervision of someone equally as sick as you are I imagine the possibility of offending again is highly likely.
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on May 23, 2015 20:40:33 GMT
Yep. Now let's everyone HUG IT OUT!!! SIDE hug it out please.... Given the seriousness of the thread, I should not have laughed.... But I did.
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Deleted
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Oct 7, 2024 19:44:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 20:50:33 GMT
I'm glad I've been taught differently. www.lds.org/topics/abuse?lang=engVictims of abuse should be assured that they are not to blame for the harmful behavior of others. They do not need to feel guilt. If they have been a victim of rape or other sexual abuse, whether they have been abused by an acquaintance, a stranger, or even a family member, victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sexual sin. It took the church decades to get to this point. In order to stay relevant, they must take a hard stance. When I was in college in the mid 90's, the institute taught the book, The Miracle of Forgiveness. I was taught masturbation leads to homosexuality.
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wenchie
Junior Member
now I have to figure out a whole new website-blech
Posts: 71
Jun 26, 2014 14:49:36 GMT
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Post by wenchie on May 23, 2015 20:55:49 GMT
So glad TLC cancelled them. That whole family bugs the living shit out of me and I wasn't surprised by "a bombshell" or that family's response in dealing with it. The hypocrisy is staggering.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 7, 2024 19:44:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 20:57:30 GMT
So glad TLC cancelled them. That whole family bugs the living shit out of me and I wasn't surprised by "a bombshell" or that family's response in dealing with it. The hypocrisy is staggering. True, far from a bombshell.
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on May 23, 2015 21:05:10 GMT
Reading replies on their blog was sickening. "this to shall pass, everyone makes a mistake, why drag this up now". Disgusting. I agree! I felt sick reading those. People are warped.
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on May 23, 2015 21:08:39 GMT
So I guess that all that "blanket training" Josh had as a young child didn't really work so well in teaching him not to touch what was forbidden. If you're not familiar with the blanket training idea -- a young child, just old enough to crawl, is placed on a blanket and told not to "transgress" off the blanket. When/if he does, he is "rebuked" (spanked). Repeatedly, until he learns to obey. Then it's ramped up a notch. A favorite toy is placed just out of reach off the blanket, and the child is again "trained" to obey with spankings if they transgress and reach for the toy. In the early years the Duggars openly shared this as a valid parenting technique. It was fairly widespread in use with people who were hardline Bill Gotthard fans -- I remember families who did it when I was a child. Problem is, it just doesn't work. That's sick.
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amom23
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,409
Jun 27, 2014 12:39:18 GMT
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Post by amom23 on May 23, 2015 21:14:48 GMT
So glad TLC cancelled them. That whole family bugs the living shit out of me and I wasn't surprised by "a bombshell" or that family's response in dealing with it. The hypocrisy is staggering. I just read an article online that stated TLC was mulling over just dropping Josh from the show. Sounds like the network hasn't made the cancelling permanent just yet anyways. I wasn't a regular watcher, but did watch from time to time. I'm all done now. I can't be part of the supporters by watching their show.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 21:18:38 GMT
I'm pretty sure the comments on the Duggar's blog are heavily monitored.
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Deleted
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Oct 7, 2024 19:44:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 21:22:15 GMT
So glad TLC cancelled them. That whole family bugs the living shit out of me and I wasn't surprised by "a bombshell" or that family's response in dealing with it. The hypocrisy is staggering. I just read an article online that stated TLC was mulling over just dropping Josh from the show. Sounds like the network hasn't made the cancelling permanent just yet anyways. I wasn't a regular watcher, but did watch from time to time. I'm all done now. I can't be part of the supporters by watching their show. To all who agree, PLEASE contact TLC. The crazy fundies are out in full-force shrieking about forgiveness, second-chances, and supposed christian bashing. The fate of the show isn't about religion, it's about criminal child molestation, and the network needs to hear some rational voices telling them to stop sanctioning it.
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Deleted
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Oct 7, 2024 19:44:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 21:23:39 GMT
So glad TLC cancelled them. That whole family bugs the living shit out of me and I wasn't surprised by "a bombshell" or that family's response in dealing with it. The hypocrisy is staggering. Unfortunately, they've just been "pulled" for now. I can't find any confirmation of actual cancellation.
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grammanisi
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Posts: 3,741
Jun 26, 2014 1:37:37 GMT
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Post by grammanisi on May 23, 2015 21:25:19 GMT
This is something that I have wondering about. How many others were there that we don't know about. Can we really believe that he stopped when they say he did.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 21:37:45 GMT
Gah!! A good friend of mine posted a link to an article that defends the Duggers, calling it a political war. "Left wingers are using his mistake now to go after blood because they're anti gay and are now frothing at the mouth over this. . It's an attack on Christianity. " This is a very good friend of mine and I went off. I might have lost her as a friend but I couldn't bite my tongue. Especially because only a few hours earlier I had posted something along the lines of how horrible his actions were and those poor girls. Honestly I am avoiding FB right now. I'm kinda too pea livid to not go off like a ballistic rocket. I am having trouble understanding some of what i am reading. I can't fathom it is coming from thinking feeling human beings in my own society. SMH I just want to cry over the victim blaming. I really never thought our society was this bad off, I can't imagine what hope we have if it's acceptable in any way to blame 4 and 6 year old girls for being molested. What kind of depraved society have we become? I am thanking my lucky stars that none of these conversations have been in person because i'm not sure i could refrain from going batshit crazy if i had heard someone live in front of me blame the little girls. I'm not even sure pea livid covers it, it's kind of beyond pea livid. I am simply having a difficult time wrapping my brain around that one. I just can't comprehend placing any blame on a 4 yo for being molested. How could any HUMAN do that? Bolded part... is that actually happening? Where? Who?
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Post by hop2 on May 23, 2015 21:43:51 GMT
This post I am not looking at this as "celebrity gossip" which seems mostly harmless. I am viewing this in the light from a fairly recent incident that occurred to the family of another person here. That situation was mostly 'groundless' but raised the double standard that exists today between teen girls and teen boys. I knew there was one for adults, I did not know how vicious is the one for children and teens. This incident with the younger Mr. Dugger happened when he was 14, fourteen, that's 10 plus 4. I think lots of us have kids that did some really stupid, but at the time either felt good or seemed like a good idea, or "just happened." Frankly any parent of a boy could really say there but for... I believe from the articles and such the girls were not much older or younger too. So, who is really at fault and aren't the girls just as guilty? So at what age does it stop? Or start? What is fair game for those that are set to not be satisfied with tarnishing or trashing, but outright destroy any possible adult livelihood and relationships. I think someone "broke the seal" on a juvenile record, and that person ought to be criminally charged. Those that are "breathless" over what could come out next disgust me. I pray that NO ONE you know is ever treated in a similar manner. And I pray for anyone that has boys, this could very, very easily happen to your precious child too. What happened to another really has opened my eyes to the intolorrence. Note: I do not condone what happened, seems all the parties involved had long ago settled the matter. There was punishment and discipline at the time, so why "pop I am not looking at this as "celebrity gossip" which seems mostly harmless. I am viewing this in the light from a fairly recent incident that occurred to the family of another person here. That situation was mostly 'groundless' but raised the double standard that exists today between teen girls and teen boys. I knew there was one for adults, I did not know how vicious is the one for children and teens. This incident with the younger Mr. Dugger happened when he was 14, fourteen, that's 10 plus 4. I think lots of us have kids that did some really stupid, but at the time either felt good or seemed like a good idea, or "just happened." Frankly any parent of a boy could really say there but for... I believe from the articles and such the girls were not much older or younger too. So, who is really at fault and aren't the girls just as guilty? So at what age does it stop? Or start? What is fair game for those that are set to not be satisfied with tarnishing or trashing, but outright destroy any possible adult livelihood and relationships. I think someone "broke the seal" on a juvenile record, and that person ought to be criminally charged. Those that are "breathless" over what could come out next disgust me. I pray that NO ONE you know is ever treated in a similar manner. And I pray for anyone that has boys, this could very, very easily happen to your precious child too. What happened to another really has opened my eyes to the intolorrence. Note: I do not condone what happened, seems all the parties involved had long ago settled the matter. There was punishment and discipline at the time, so why "pop up" now nearly what, 15 years later??? now nearly what, 15 years later??? From this thread 2peasrefugees.boards.net/thread/23109/tlc-cynical-incompetent-duggar-showWhich she goes on to defend.
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Post by Woobster on May 23, 2015 21:44:42 GMT
Gia... Check out the TLC thread. You'll see, at least in part, what hop2 is referring to.
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Post by stampbooker on May 23, 2015 21:48:03 GMT
I really don't think that BuckeyeSandy meant that the girls were at fault. She clearly didn't know the facts of the case and assumed that it was just a situation of "playing doctor" where everyone was a willing participant. She shouldn't have spoken up when she didn't know what she was talking about, but I don't think it is fair to beat her down because of it.
Why can't people just correct her instead of tearing her to pieces? How does that further anyone's enlightenment?
Julie
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Post by mirabelleswalker on May 23, 2015 21:57:22 GMT
I really don't think that BuckeyeSandy meant that the girls were at fault. She clearly didn't know the facts of the case and assumed that it was just a situation of "playing doctor" where everyone was a willing participant. She shouldn't have spoken up when she didn't know what she was talking about, but I don't think it is fair to beat her down because of it. Why can't people just correct her instead of tearing her to pieces? How does that further anyone's enlightenment? Julie Once given the facts, she continued to dismiss the crime as the product of gossip and said that we have all done wrong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 22:00:31 GMT
I really don't think that BuckeyeSandy meant that the girls were at fault. She clearly didn't know the facts of the case and assumed that it was just a situation of "playing doctor" where everyone was a willing participant. She shouldn't have spoken up when she didn't know what she was talking about, but I don't think it is fair to beat her down because of it. Why can't people just correct her instead of tearing her to pieces? How does that further anyone's enlightenment? Julie No just no. You don't speak out on a case like this and blame the victims. You just don't. If you don't know the details keep your damn mouth shut. What she did was inexcusable. And she clearly blamed the victims.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 22:01:12 GMT
I really don't think that BuckeyeSandy meant that the girls were at fault. She clearly didn't know the facts of the case and assumed that it was just a situation of "playing doctor" where everyone was a willing participant. She shouldn't have spoken up when she didn't know what she was talking about, but I don't think it is fair to beat her down because of it. Why can't people just correct her instead of tearing her to pieces? How does that further anyone's enlightenment? Julie She has no interest in being enlightened. She has consistently refused to read the factual accounts, and is claiming that this is all malicious gossip. She absolutely meant to blame the victims. Here it is in black and white: She clearly stated that the girls were as much to blame as the molester. Thinking of them being closer in age to the molester doesn't excuse her blame of the victims. NO. You don't get to put that kind of cruelness out there without some backlash. Stop and think what she did to every single abuse victim who read her posts. She called the Duggar abuse victims, including a 4-6 year old child, liars and blamed them. Not ok.
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Olan
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Jul 13, 2014 21:23:27 GMT
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Post by Olan on May 23, 2015 22:02:33 GMT
I really don't think that BuckeyeSandy meant that the girls were at fault. She clearly didn't know the facts of the case and assumed that it was just a situation of "playing doctor" where everyone was a willing participant. She shouldn't have spoken up when she didn't know what she was talking about, but I don't think it is fair to beat her down because of it. Why can't people just correct her instead of tearing her to pieces? How does that further anyone's enlightenment? Julie Yet that is exactly what she said. Regardless of the age of the girls...if both the sister he molested and he were the same age the blame/fault doesn't lie with the victim EVER. Under no circumstances. Why does this need to be spelled out. To women. I am just floored.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 22:07:33 GMT
I really don't think that BuckeyeSandy meant that the girls were at fault. She clearly didn't know the facts of the case and assumed that it was just a situation of "playing doctor" where everyone was a willing participant. She shouldn't have spoken up when she didn't know what she was talking about, but I don't think it is fair to beat her down because of it. Why can't people just correct her instead of tearing her to pieces? How does that further anyone's enlightenment? Julie Yet that is exactly what she said. Regardless of the age of the girls...if both the sister he molested and he were the same age the blame/fault doesn't lie with the victim EVER. Under no circumstances. Why does this need to be spelled out. To women. I am just floored. I completely agree with you, but the victim-blaming happens to male victims, too. My family members who were molested were boys (molested by a teenaged boy) and they were blamed too. Victim blaming and shaming is wrong and it should never, ever be tolerated. Claiming ignorance after running your mouth without the facts is not an excuse. (this part is not directed at you, olan)
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Post by hop2 on May 23, 2015 22:09:15 GMT
I really don't think that BuckeyeSandy meant that the girls were at fault. She clearly didn't know the facts of the case and assumed that it was just a situation of "playing doctor" where everyone was a willing participant. She shouldn't have spoken up when she didn't know what she was talking about, but I don't think it is fair to beat her down because of it. Why can't people just correct her instead of tearing her to pieces? How does that further anyone's enlightenment? Julie When I begged her to tell me I misunderstood her she defended the position. Sort of further insinuating that teen girls would be at fault.
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