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Post by Really Red on May 25, 2015 22:56:12 GMT
I always tell my kids that whether or not they like a subject that they learn something new and it opens their minds. I feel pretty strongly about that and I feel pretty strongly that reading opens your minds more than anything. Now my 14yo freshman does not believe in reading books. He listens to the news, he watches biographies on TV and he'll read historical information, but he doesn't want to read fiction. Ever. He thinks reading fiction has gone the way of the horse-drawn carriage. He has no problem with others getting their information that way, but he doesn't think it's helpful.
Sigh.
I fully admit being outmaneuvered by a 14yo, I am sorry to say. His grammar is excellent, his vocabulary is extremely advanced and in every subject but English, he does very well.
Does anyone have any helpful arguments for me? I love reading. It is my favorite thing to do. I read to him all the time when he was young, but he's so mule-headed about this one I don't have an answer for him.
Three more years of school and for heaven's sakes, I just want him to stop complaining and put the teeniest amount of effort into English. He doesn't have to be an English superstar, but I want to erase the attitude. Is there hope?
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 23:02:51 GMT
I always tell my kids that whether or not they like a subject that they learn something new and it opens their minds. I feel pretty strongly about that and I feel pretty strongly that reading opens your minds more than anything. Now my 14yo freshman does not believe in reading books. He listens to the news, he watches biographies on TV and he'll read historical information, but he doesn't want to read fiction. Ever. He thinks reading fiction has gone the way of the horse-drawn carriage. He has no problem with others getting their information that way, but he doesn't think it's helpful. Sigh. I fully admit being outmaneuvered by a 14yo, I am sorry to say. His grammar is excellent, his vocabulary is extremely advanced and in every subject but English, he does very well. Does anyone have any helpful arguments for me? I love reading. It is my favorite thing to do. I read to him all the time when he was young, but he's so mule-headed about this one I don't have an answer for him. Three more years of school and for heaven's sakes, I just want him to stop complaining and put the teeniest amount of effort into English. He doesn't have to be an English superstar, but I want to erase the attitude. Is there hope? What subject did you dislike the most? I'll assume math since it seems students who love reading aren't thrilled with math. Are you willing to spend the same amount of time doing math for the sake of doing math that you expect him to do reading? Personally, as long as my kids were able to read with good comprehension I didn't worry about it. Just because it is MY favorite doesn't mean it has to be their favorite. They aren't our clones.
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Post by Basket1lady on May 25, 2015 23:04:03 GMT
My DS hated English classes. He likes to read, but doesn't see the symbolism in fiction, or the point of it. Every year, it would be his lowest class score.
It wasn't until last year's AP class that he embraced his English class. The thought of getting a passing AP score and never having to take an English class in college is very appealing to him. He got a 4 on last year's exam and is hoping for a 5 this year (we won't find out until July when they release the scores.). If he gets a 4 or a 5, he won't have to take an English class in college, but will need another humanities class. He's ok with that, as long as he never has to read another fiction book, analyze it, and write an essay!
So there is hope!
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 23:04:57 GMT
If you want to erase an attitude with a teenager don't try to force it. They just dig their heels in. Let go. As long as he is passing English with a respectable grade LET GO.
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MorningPerson
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Post by MorningPerson on May 25, 2015 23:06:52 GMT
I always tell my kids that whether or not they like a subject that they learn something new and it opens their minds. I feel pretty strongly about that and I feel pretty strongly that reading opens your minds more than anything. Now my 14yo freshman does not believe in reading books. He listens to the news, he watches biographies on TV and he'll read historical information, but he doesn't want to read fiction. Ever. He thinks reading fiction has gone the way of the horse-drawn carriage. He has no problem with others getting their information that way, but he doesn't think it's helpful. Sigh. I fully admit being outmaneuvered by a 14yo, I am sorry to say. His grammar is excellent, his vocabulary is extremely advanced and in every subject but English, he does very well. Does anyone have any helpful arguments for me? I love reading. It is my favorite thing to do. I read to him all the time when he was young, but he's so mule-headed about this one I don't have an answer for him. Three more years of school and for heaven's sakes, I just want him to stop complaining and put the teeniest amount of effort into English. He doesn't have to be an English superstar, but I want to erase the attitude. Is there hope? What subject did you dislike the most? I'll assume math since it seems students who love reading aren't thrilled with math. Are you willing to spend the same amount of time doing math for the sake of doing math that you expect him to do reading? Personally, as long as my kids were able to read with good comprehension I didn't worry about it. Just because it is MY favorite doesn't mean it has to be their favorite. They aren't our clones. I started to say something similar, got way too wordy, deleted, and poured myself a glass of wine. Voltagain said exactly what I was trying to say. We all have our own preferences and interests, and to try to convince someone else they should feel as we do is pointless.
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Post by Eddie-n-Harley on May 25, 2015 23:07:08 GMT
There are lots of modern day references that come from fiction. Does he not want to be familiar with their origins? Every time I see someone who looks far younger than their chronological age (this usually comes up when we see some celeb on TV), I comment on whether there's a picture hidden in their attic. Does he know where that comes from?
Also, allegory and satire are not available in the non-fiction section, and some of the most scathing commentaries of a society come out through fiction's toolbox.
And doesn't he ever want to be able to compare the book to the movie? Or does he not go to fictitious movies, either?
If he ever expects to win on Jeopardy, he'll need to have some experience with fiction.
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Post by leannec on May 25, 2015 23:09:33 GMT
My dh is highly intelligent ... he will read the newspaper cover to cover and has constant news updates on his phone but he doesn't like to read books Some people just are not cut out for the whole book thing ... I am a total bookworm so that was hard for me to understand ... it is what it is ... but it doesn't mean that they can't be successful ... dh does very well
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Post by Really Red on May 25, 2015 23:11:27 GMT
Sorry. I did make it sound like I want him to love reading. No, I do not. And now that I'm going to tell you this, it sounds silly, but I want him to admit that reading books is a worthwhile thing. I actually do not care - really - that he loves it. I want him to admit that everything he thinks is not valid and sometimes there are other valid things.
FWIW, I love math with a passion. I loved all my subjects, but I struggled with science. That said, I value science enormously. Even though I am not very good at it!
ETA: I hope this makes sense. My son is knocking all fiction as a way of the past. Not that he personally just doesn't like it, but that no one should get anything out of it. I want to show him that people do get things out of it.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 23:15:42 GMT
Sorry. I did make it sound like I want him to love reading. No, I do not. And now that I'm going to tell you this, it sounds silly, but I want him to admit that reading books is a worthwhile thing. I actually do not care - really - that he loves it. I want him to admit that everything he thinks is not valid and sometimes there are other valid things. FWIW, I love math with a passion. I loved all my subjects, but I struggled with science. That said, I value science enormously. Even though I am not very good at it! ETA: I hope this makes sense. My son is knocking all fiction as a way of the past. Not that he personally just doesn't like it, but that no one should get anything out of it. I want to show him that people do get things out of it. He is at an age you will NOT get this response. If you ever want him to acknowledge it you have to let go of it now. He is a few years from being willing to admit that anything an adult says is true.
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Post by scrapsotime on May 25, 2015 23:16:17 GMT
There are lots of modern day references that come from fiction. Does he not want to be familiar with their origins? Every time I see someone who looks far younger than their chronological age (this usually comes up when we see some celeb on TV), I comment on whether there's a picture hidden in their attic. Does he know where that comes from? Also, allegory and satire are not available in the non-fiction section, and some of the most scathing commentaries of a society come out through fiction's toolbox. And doesn't he ever want to be able to compare the book to the movie? Or does he not go to fictitious movies, either? If he ever expects to win on Jeopardy, he'll need to have some experience with fiction. My adult children would get it but tell you it comes from a movie (League of Extraordinary Gentlemen) and may be able to connect it to the book. I would have known it before seeing the same movie and I've never read the book.
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Post by gar on May 25, 2015 23:16:19 GMT
You can't make someone love something - as you well know:smile: There will be times when he will realise that he's unaware of something because it's a literary reference but plenty of people survive that sort of thing. Honestly? You can't and probably shouldn't do anything. Enjoy that he's a great student, respect his preferences and carry on enjoying reading yourself:grin:
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Post by gar on May 25, 2015 23:18:41 GMT
Ah, ok....read your second post after writing mine.....I hope you're not holding your breath!!
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Post by krazykatlady on May 25, 2015 23:21:04 GMT
If you want to erase an attitude with a teenager don't try to force it. They just dig their heels in. Let go. As long as he is passing English with a respectable grade LET GO. This ^ My youngest son hated reading and high school English courses (we homeschooled) were completed with a lot of gnashing of teeth. I finally said he was own his own. His grades were somewhat average but he did get into college. He graduated from college summa cum laude and is currently working on his masters in New Testament Research. He loves reading now and has been building a massive library of all kinds of literature. It was like a light bulb went on and suddenly he discovered reading WAS a good thing. It just had to be in his timing, not mine!
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Post by scrapsotime on May 25, 2015 23:41:51 GMT
My sons hated high school English. They felt everything they read was analyzed to death and they got no pleasure from reading anything they had to.
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Post by greenlegume on May 25, 2015 23:42:36 GMT
Sorry. I did make it sound like I want him to love reading. No, I do not. And now that I'm going to tell you this, it sounds silly, but I want him to admit that reading books is a worthwhile thing. I actually do not care - really - that he loves it. I want him to admit that everything he thinks is not valid and sometimes there are other valid things. FWIW, I love math with a passion. I loved all my subjects, but I struggled with science. That said, I value science enormously. Even though I am not very good at it! ETA: I hope this makes sense. My son is knocking all fiction as a way of the past. Not that he personally just doesn't like it, but that no one should get anything out of it. I want to show him that people do get things out of it. I see lots of frustration in your future. I think almost every teen has at least one or two notions during adolescence that their parents consider wacky. (and most of them probably actually are ) Do you two argue a lot? I guess if you do, maybe this is par for the course. If not, I just can't believe that this is a hill you'd want to die on with him, especially considering that he's a teenager and everyone knows how unreasonable and stubborn they can be. And if I"m understanding you correctly, he'll read, just not fiction. That sounds like temporary insanity, but even if it's not, it's his loss if he dismisses anything and everything fictional. At some point, I think he'll figure out that this kind of all-encompassing rejection might be a bit extreme. But volt is right. You're in for guaranteed heartache if you tie up with a teenager and try to change their attitude. If they know it bothers you, you're doomed.
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Post by bc2ca on May 25, 2015 23:52:38 GMT
Sorry. I did make it sound like I want him to love reading. No, I do not. And now that I'm going to tell you this, it sounds silly, but I want him to admit that reading books is a worthwhile thing. I actually do not care - really - that he loves it. I want him to admit that everything he thinks is not valid and sometimes there are other valid things. FWIW, I love math with a passion. I loved all my subjects, but I struggled with science. That said, I value science enormously. Even though I am not very good at it! ETA: I hope this makes sense. My son is knocking all fiction as a way of the past. Not that he personally just doesn't like it, but that no one should get anything out of it. I want to show him that people do get things out of it. I'm a bit confused over what you are arguing about, but my dad had a lot of disdain for fiction for many years. He is someone that is well read, devours history and always has several books he is reading at the same time. Fiction to him was made up and a complete waste of time. He also can't stand most movies and TV shows (but is a big fan of Doc Martin and a few select other British series). Does your son appreciate a well written TV series or movie? I'm just trying to understand is it the format or content that he thinks is a thing of the past (or both). Has he read anything like The Kite Runner or A Fine Balance? Those are two books that my dad enjoyed after listening to my mom & I discussing them and he was curious enough to read them. I wouldn't try to win an argument with your DS, but challenge him to read one of those books.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 23:52:52 GMT
I have always been a reader. I devour literature and select categories of non-fiction.
I've known my husband to read one novel the almost 18 years we've been together. He reads a lot - just not novels.
It's is preference, just as literature is mine. Neither of us is right or wrong.
Let him be.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 23:57:48 GMT
My 15 year old 9th grader is very much like your son. He'll read if it's assigned and does the minimum. Reading for recreation, no! He's recently started an interest in comic books, it's something I guess.
He's my kid that seriously taught himself to read. I didn't do much teaching with the alphabet and numbers he just picked up on it! He was reading the first week of school.
My daughter struggled in preschool. She started reading a little by December in Kindergarten. Now, she is obsessed!
ETA: I feel your pain. It's frustrating when I know he can understand a book but doesn't try very hard. I get the same comments from his language arts teachers of how once he does complete the assignment in its entirety, he usually gets one of the higher grades in his class.
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Post by Really Red on May 25, 2015 23:58:37 GMT
Sorry. I did make it sound like I want him to love reading. No, I do not. And now that I'm going to tell you this, it sounds silly, but I want him to admit that reading books is a worthwhile thing. I actually do not care - really - that he loves it. I want him to admit that everything he thinks is not valid and sometimes there are other valid things. FWIW, I love math with a passion. I loved all my subjects, but I struggled with science. That said, I value science enormously. Even though I am not very good at it! ETA: I hope this makes sense. My son is knocking all fiction as a way of the past. Not that he personally just doesn't like it, but that no one should get anything out of it. I want to show him that people do get things out of it. I see lots of frustration in your future. I think almost every teen has at least one or two notions during adolescence that their parents consider wacky. (and most of them probably actually are ) Do you two argue a lot? I guess if you do, maybe this is par for the course. If not, I just can't believe that this is a hill you'd want to die on with him, especially considering that he's a teenager and everyone knows how unreasonable and stubborn they can be. And if I"m understanding you correctly, he'll read, just not fiction. That sounds like temporary insanity, but even if it's not, it's his loss if he dismisses anything and everything fictional. At some point, I think he'll figure out that this kind of all-encompassing rejection might be a bit extreme. But volt is right. You're in for guaranteed heartache if you tie up with a teenager and try to change their attitude. If they know it bothers you, you're doomed. I also didn't mean to imply this is a mountain in front of us. My son and I talk a lot and this is one of the many things we discuss. I asked for an argument against his beliefs, but I think what I'm asking for is really a rebuttal. He has a lot of beliefs, as do I. I mostly don't think he has to agree with me and even in this case, I don't want him to agree, I just want a rebuttal to show him the reason why fiction is important. I don't need him to like fiction, read it, love English or anything (you guys are worse than he is!!), I just want to have this rebuttal for when he tells me that fiction is outdated. If you think of it as a debate, I'm the losing debater and I need a line or two to help out my side. There is nothing my son enjoys more than such discussions. No matter how teenagery he is, all I have to do is say the grass is blue and the sky is green and he is beyond thrilled to discuss the whys and wherefores. We disagree on a ton of stuff, but I can usually put forth a good showing. In this case, I feel like I'm letting down history in not letting him know that fiction is important.
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Post by ntsf on May 26, 2015 0:00:49 GMT
it can also be the type of modern lit taught in high school english...often it is unappealing. my son started reading more at that age when I gave him Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance, master and commander, The hornblower books...
you can't worry about this stuff.
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Post by greenlegume on May 26, 2015 0:03:28 GMT
I guess you could ask why he watches anything fictional on TV or in movies. Those all start out as written fiction. Even most video games are fictional.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 0:08:30 GMT
I am not sure how my son graduated after passing high school English without reading anything more than required, but he did. I know he knows how to read, he just does not read. He had a room full of books he picked out that he thought he would like to read. He didn't though. His grade 12 English teacher told me she has children and one in particular will not read anything. She said he turned out just fine.
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melissa
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Post by melissa on May 26, 2015 0:09:54 GMT
Sounds a bit like my husband.
I am convinced that the only fiction he has read has been for classes, with the exception of Ayn Rand. He is a frequent reader, but it is all nonfiction and primarily related to his areas of interest- the stock market and computers.
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Post by scrapsotime on May 26, 2015 0:16:10 GMT
I see lots of frustration in your future. I think almost every teen has at least one or two notions during adolescence that their parents consider wacky. (and most of them probably actually are ) Do you two argue a lot? I guess if you do, maybe this is par for the course. If not, I just can't believe that this is a hill you'd want to die on with him, especially considering that he's a teenager and everyone knows how unreasonable and stubborn they can be. And if I"m understanding you correctly, he'll read, just not fiction. That sounds like temporary insanity, but even if it's not, it's his loss if he dismisses anything and everything fictional. At some point, I think he'll figure out that this kind of all-encompassing rejection might be a bit extreme. But volt is right. You're in for guaranteed heartache if you tie up with a teenager and try to change their attitude. If they know it bothers you, you're doomed. I also didn't mean to imply this is a mountain in front of us. My son and I talk a lot and this is one of the many things we discuss. I asked for an argument against his beliefs, but I think what I'm asking for is really a rebuttal. He has a lot of beliefs, as do I. I mostly don't think he has to agree with me and even in this case, I don't want him to agree, I just want a rebuttal to show him the reason why fiction is important. I don't need him to like fiction, read it, love English or anything (you guys are worse than he is!!), I just want to have this rebuttal for when he tells me that fiction is outdated. If you think of it as a debate, I'm the losing debater and I need a line or two to help out my side. There is nothing my son enjoys more than such discussions. No matter how teenagery he is, all I have to do is say the grass is blue and the sky is green and he is beyond thrilled to discuss the whys and wherefores. We disagree on a ton of stuff, but I can usually put forth a good showing. In this case, I feel like I'm letting down history in not letting him know that fiction is important. Did he watch the Harry Potter movies, The Maze Runner, The Giver, Divergent, The Hunger Games, Ender's Game, The Lord of the Ring series, The Percy Jackson movies? Did he like them? They were all books first. Fiction in one form or another is everywhere - Games, comics, TV, movies, music. Is he really saying that he thinks books are outdated - as in anything on paper?
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TheOtherMeg
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Post by TheOtherMeg on May 26, 2015 0:21:03 GMT
If this was one of my boys, I'd float the idea that he could pick a movie that came from a (fiction) book. Then we'd read the book together (either together-together or not-together but during the same timeframe). After the reading, we'd make a big deal about having a movie night with his fave dinner & snacks. This would work with any of my four boys (ages 13-25), but I totally understand that some kids would think it's dorky.
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Post by coffeetalk on May 26, 2015 0:24:20 GMT
I see lots of frustration in your future. I think almost every teen has at least one or two notions during adolescence that their parents consider wacky. (and most of them probably actually are ) Do you two argue a lot? I guess if you do, maybe this is par for the course. If not, I just can't believe that this is a hill you'd want to die on with him, especially considering that he's a teenager and everyone knows how unreasonable and stubborn they can be. And if I"m understanding you correctly, he'll read, just not fiction. That sounds like temporary insanity, but even if it's not, it's his loss if he dismisses anything and everything fictional. At some point, I think he'll figure out that this kind of all-encompassing rejection might be a bit extreme. But volt is right. You're in for guaranteed heartache if you tie up with a teenager and try to change their attitude. If they know it bothers you, you're doomed. I also didn't mean to imply this is a mountain in front of us. My son and I talk a lot and this is one of the many things we discuss. I asked for an argument against his beliefs, but I think what I'm asking for is really a rebuttal. He has a lot of beliefs, as do I. I mostly don't think he has to agree with me and even in this case, I don't want him to agree, I just want a rebuttal to show him the reason why fiction is important. I don't need him to like fiction, read it, love English or anything (you guys are worse than he is!!), I just want to have this rebuttal for when he tells me that fiction is outdated. If you think of it as a debate, I'm the losing debater and I need a line or two to help out my side. There is nothing my son enjoys more than such discussions. No matter how teenagery he is, all I have to do is say the grass is blue and the sky is green and he is beyond thrilled to discuss the whys and wherefores. We disagree on a ton of stuff, but I can usually put forth a good showing. In this case, I feel like I'm letting down history in not letting him know that fiction is important. There are a number of articles online that may help you formulate a rebuttal and make for interesting discussion and give him food for thought. scienceblogs.com/principles/2007/05/19/in-defense-of-fiction-reading/''And there are good and important reasons to have students read fiction. Janet Stemwedel (from whom I got the original Althouse link) has a fairly comprehensive list, to which I’ll add just one point:Reading fiction is sometimes a better way of teaching people “something academic and substantive” than simply lecturing them. To cop a line from Teresa Nielsen Hayden, “Story is a force of nature.” Stories are extremely powerful, and a well-told story can often make an important point more effectively than a well-reasoned lecture. This isn’t exactly a shocking new literary theory, either– pretty much every culture in the history of culture has used stories to teach lessons. Aesop wrote fables, Jesus taught in parables, the Grimm Brothers wrote gory little stories. We’ve got a big thick book of Jane Yolen’s favorite folk tales around here somewhere, and pretty much all of those stories have a point that goes beyond mere entertainment. The same is true of more recent history. There’s a reason why Uncle Tom’s Cabin is held up as an important part of the abolitionist movement in the mid-1800’s, and books like Invisible Man are an important part of the Civil Rights movement of the Twentieth Century. Well told stories can make people understand reality much more effectively and immediately than pages of facts and statistics. Tim O’Brien’s The Things They Carried is almost entirely fiction, but on another level, it makes Vietnam more real than mere factual accounts. And for that reason, I first read it as a part of a History class in college. Fiction is not just for recreation. And for that reason alone (let alone all the others that Janet lists), it has an important place in our schools.''
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scrapaddie
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Post by scrapaddie on May 26, 2015 0:31:43 GMT
If you want to erase an attitude with a teenager don't try to force it. They just dig their heels in. Let go. As long as he is passing English with a respectable grade LET GO. This ^ My youngest son hated reading and high school English courses (we homeschooled) were completed with a lot of gnashing of teeth. I finally said he was own his own. His grades were somewhat average but he did get into college. He graduated from college summa cum laude and is currently working on his masters in New Testament Research. He loves reading now and has been building a massive library of all kinds of literature. It was like a light bulb went on and suddenly he discovered reading WAS a good thing. It just had to be in his timing, not mine! Although I loved reading, I hated reading what the teachers wanted me to read... Great Expectations was pure torture! Then, as an adult, bored, I picked it up and loved it!!! The point is, as long as he is doing good enough, let it go
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The Great Carpezio
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Post by The Great Carpezio on May 26, 2015 2:20:36 GMT
I teach language arts to boys his age.
My rule for them: no negativity. They don't have to like it, but I'm not going to allow them to put down what we read in class unless they RESPECTFULLY back it up with textual sources. (In text or other text)
My rule for me: I always explain why we are reading what we are reading and give them abstract and concrete reasons. Big picture themes that contect to text, self and/or world (currently or historically) and details like focusing in on character motivation, literary devices, allusions, etc... Understanding those things go beyond just comprehending a fictional story.
If he likes to read nonfiction, be happy he likes to read, but countless studies have been done on the benefits of fiction as well. YA fiction is one of the fastest growing genres. Harry Potter made JK Rowlings a billionaire. It is not obsolete or worthless.
Share a couple studies and remind him to respect the opinions of others while backing up his opinions.
You probably won't change his mind, but you don't have to allow an insolent diatribe of opinions either.
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Post by eebud on May 26, 2015 2:33:00 GMT
High School English taught me to HATE reading. We didn't read anything that was enjoyable for me. I don't get into books like A Tale of Two Cities and Hamlet and every book we had to read in high school fit into this category. I didn't read at all for a long time after high school because I was so turned off by it. And in reality, I didn't read the books in high school either. I would buy the Cliff Notes and they gave me enough information to barely pass the test. Then one day, I was visiting others for Christmas. I picked up a book that was in the room where I was staying and started reading it. It grabbed my attention and I spent as much time as I could during that visit reading that book. When I got home, I went to the book store to buy the book because I didn't quite get finished with it. This was the first time I had entered a book store in years. So, there is the possibility that he might change but maybe not. DH hates reading fiction. He doesn't see the point and doesn't enjoy the story.
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Post by alittleintrepid on May 26, 2015 4:06:11 GMT
There are lots of modern day references that come from fiction. Does he not want to be familiar with their origins? Every time I see someone who looks far younger than their chronological age (this usually comes up when we see some celeb on TV), I comment on whether there's a picture hidden in their attic. Does he know where that comes from? Also, allegory and satire are not available in the non-fiction section, and some of the most scathing commentaries of a society come out through fiction's toolbox. And doesn't he ever want to be able to compare the book to the movie? Or does he not go to fictitious movies, either? If he ever expects to win on Jeopardy, he'll need to have some experience with fiction. My adult children would get it but tell you it comes from a movie (League of Extraordinary Gentlemen) and may be able to connect it to the book. I would have known it before seeing the same movie and I've never read the book. This post will show my ignorance...isn't League of Extraordinary Gentleman a superhero movie? I though @eddie-n-Harley 's reference was to an Oscar Wilde novel? Does the same plot line occur in the Superhero movie?
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