jayfab
Drama Llama
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procastinating
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Jun 26, 2014 21:55:15 GMT
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Post by jayfab on Jun 19, 2015 23:42:01 GMT
I'm gonna give my POV. I've noticed that when blacks cry out in protest over being brutalized by cops I hear the other side say they're sick of them playing the race card. That if you act like a criminal you get treated like a criminal. And once again, their outcry of racism is denied and the blame is once again put on the victim. Or if a cop is involved it immediately goes to "Back The Blue". We all should want to weed out corruption but that's never the conversation. I've seen the KKK ramping up their recruitment efforts. I've read their spiel online where they are quick to connect with other people who agree with them. The Minutemen are busy looking for recruits. In the same manner ISIS is proselytizing online so are our homegrown white supremacist terrorists. They've been stockpiling weapons and waiting for a race war to end all race wars. So am I surprised when a young white male with a history of racial "jokes" and drug use walks into a church and guns down its congregants simply because of their skin color? No, I am absolutely not surprised. Because I see the racism pumping through the veins of our country from state to state. It is so ingrained and institutionalized that it has become the way things naturally are. It's acceptable. And if you question it or push back against it you're playing the "race card" or considered a race baiter. We don't need to be talking about the mental health crisis in our country regarding *this* case. It does a great injustice to those who actually struggle with mental health issues. Let's call this for what it is and stop trying to deny it or put a different face on it that makes it acceptable. It isn't a war on Christianity. It isn't about drugs. It's about racism. Agree 100%. I am sad, depressed and pissed that people want to blame everything but the fact. If I hear one more "but" I think I will scream.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 0:04:21 GMT
Quotes like this are what makes people who wouldn't have a problem with the database dig their heals in. I own guns (actually they are DH's). I have never killed something with a gun in my life and I don't intend to. But you find ME responsible for people who are killed? Screw that. It pushes me further from being on the gun laws bus and onto the gun rights one. When I started at 2 peas almost 12 years ago, I was very much a gun control person. I argued with the gun rights people (some will remember) it. I advocated for registration, for background checks, for other items, but that isn't where the gun control people want to stop. They want to ban guns and that is why the gun people say no. The chipping away at rights is a slippery slope they don't want to be on. BUT since you brought up the database, I'd like to know how it would work. Let's say I registered my .22. It shows that it is registered to me. Do you then have to shoot it and keep a bullet to match against? Just because you know I own a .22 doesn't mean you can match it to me unless you have an analysis done. Don't like the quote? Too bad. Let me tell you something. I'm sick to death of hearing about 26 killed in a school by a guy with a gun and most of the ones killed were children. I'm sick of hearing about 9 people in a church killed by a man with a gun. I'm sick of hearing about a young mother of three killed by a stray bullet from a drive by shooting while protecting her three children who were out in front of their home playing. I'm sick of hearing about a 15 year old girl that was killed by a stray bullet while walking to a shopping center with her friends. You know what I'm sick about the most? Because nothing is done nothing is ever done. And more innocent people die everyday. Today in Oakland. The city is celebrating the championship win by the Warriors. 4 blocks from the celebration there was a shooting and three people were injured. I guess the good news is they weren't killed. Change has to come from gun owners. They need to accept the current system isn't working because too many "responsible "gun owners aren't and they shouldn't have guns. They can't keep saying "well the problem isn't with me because I'm a "responsible" gun owner. It's the other guy". So until the gun owners quit making excuses and support meaningful change and push the politicians to enact these changes they damn well had better be wearing boots!
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
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Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jun 20, 2015 0:04:33 GMT
It's been said on this thread (don't recall if it was you or someone else) talking about Chicago being in such close proximity to several other states.
Los Angeles is in close proximity to Nevada, Arizona, and another dangerous drug running and violent country Mexico. NYC is in close proximity to NJ, CT and PA. Yet the numbers I posted yesterday still have Chicago having as many shootings as Los Angeles and NYC COMBINED. Understood. I'm not at all contesting the number of shootings in Chicago. The information about the proximity to other states - and the difference between Chicago's gun laws and the laws in the rest of Illinois - is to throw some "Yeah, but's" against the argument that the number of Chicago shootings demonstrates that "strict" gun control does not work.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
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Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jun 20, 2015 0:12:20 GMT
Discussion is a good thing. Even if people don't agree discussion/debate is a good thing. Thought provoking even. I may have been misunderstood. I don't object to discussion or even much of this discussion; I object to the political overtones that have spurred the Chicago discussions - from some quarters - since 2008, even when shootings were in a steady decline. Those conversations didn't happen before that with the frequency they do now, even when Chicago shootings were higher. The NRA and other pro-gun forums started taking a particular interest in Chicago in 2008.
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Post by Peace Sign on Jun 20, 2015 2:12:11 GMT
To see racism does not make it exist. To see RACE in everything does. And Foolana makes everything about race. The only way to NOT be racist is to be completely colorblind. Actually, the term color blind shouldn't be what we're striving for. Colorblind implies that I can accept you despite your color (race or ethnicity). We need to be accepting and even celebrate people's colors. Learn. It's interesting. Who on this board has a Muslim friend? Who has a Mormon friend? Who has an English as a second language friend? A black friend? More than one?? Aren't they wonderful? Do you ever ask her about her homelands, or customs, or ethnic foods? Beliefs? Struggles?? That's not to be colorblind...it's to embrace it all.
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Post by marykate on Jun 20, 2015 3:06:17 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 3:07:40 GMT
I've seen the KKK ramping up their recruitment efforts. I've read their spiel online where they are quick to connect with other people who agree with them. The Minutemen are busy looking for recruits. In the same manner ISIS is proselytizing online so are our homegrown white supremacist terrorists. They've been stockpiling weapons and waiting for a race war to end all race wars. So am I surprised when a young white male with a history of racial "jokes" and drug use walks into a church and guns down its congregants simply because of their skin color? No, I am absolutely not surprised. Because I see the racism pumping through the veins of our country from state to state. It is so ingrained and institutionalized that it has become the way things naturally are. It's acceptable. And if you question it or push back against it you're playing the "race card" or considered a race baiter. I read this a few hours ago and have given it much thought and have an honest question for you.
You say that the KKK is "ramping up their recruitment efforts." I'd like to think I'm pretty "aware" and on top of what happens in my neighborhood, zip code, and even metro area. I watch local news, read local news, talk to people when I'm out daily, read signs posted and browse local happenings on the internet.
I can honestly say that I've never seen anything in regards to the KKK...recruitment or otherwise. What am I missing? Where am I not looking? What are you looking at that has you seeing the evidence of the KKK "ramping up their recruitment efforts."
I must add, that my county has an ugly past...that involves a civil rights march and Oprah in the late 80's. One could probably assume that there are people in our county who still believe...but again...I've never seen anything that even hints at any KKK activity.
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Post by foolana on Jun 20, 2015 3:31:42 GMT
I've seen the KKK ramping up their recruitment efforts. I've read their spiel online where they are quick to connect with other people who agree with them. The Minutemen are busy looking for recruits. In the same manner ISIS is proselytizing online so are our homegrown white supremacist terrorists. They've been stockpiling weapons and waiting for a race war to end all race wars. So am I surprised when a young white male with a history of racial "jokes" and drug use walks into a church and guns down its congregants simply because of their skin color? No, I am absolutely not surprised. Because I see the racism pumping through the veins of our country from state to state. It is so ingrained and institutionalized that it has become the way things naturally are. It's acceptable. And if you question it or push back against it you're playing the "race card" or considered a race baiter. I read this a few hours ago and have given it much thought and have an honest question for you.
You say that the KKK is "ramping up their recruitment efforts." I'd like to think I'm pretty "aware" and on top of what happens in my neighborhood, zip code, and even metro area. I watch local news, read local news, talk to people when I'm out daily, read signs posted and browse local happenings on the internet.
I can honestly say that I've never seen anything in regards to the KKK...recruitment or otherwise. What am I missing? Where am I not looking? What are you looking at that has you seeing the evidence of the KKK "ramping up their recruitment efforts."
I must add, that my county has an ugly past...that involves a civil rights march and Oprah in the late 80's. One could probably assume that there are people in our county who still believe...but again...I've never seen anything that even hints at any KKK activity.
Just because you don't "see" it yourself doesn't make it untrue. Why does it always have to be about you? I'm not discriminated against like black people are because I'm white. I don't presume that because I don't experience it, it doesn't happen to them.
Sigh.
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Post by lucyg on Jun 20, 2015 3:32:13 GMT
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Post by marykate on Jun 20, 2015 3:54:18 GMT
We don't need to be talking about the mental health crisis in our country regarding *this* case. It does a great injustice to those who actually struggle with mental health issues. Let's call this for what it is and stop trying to deny it or put a different face on it that makes it acceptable. It isn't a war on Christianity. It isn't about drugs. It's about racism. Conchita, I mostly share your POV here, and agree with your comment almost 100 percent. This massacre was racially motivated. It was quite obviously and explicitly an act of race-hatred (and also an act of domestic terrorism, imo: the FBI has a three-pronged definition of domestic terrorism, and this act fits all three criteria). This is about racism. The notion that this was an assault on Christianity because the killing took place in a church is manifestly ridiculous, given the long and ignoble history of attacks on African-American churches. Those who are pushing this line (hello, Rick Santorum) are looking for a way to express some disapproval of the killing, but without alienating the racist elements of their base. God forbid we should admit that a killer who went into a church brandishing white supremacist flags on his jacket, and who reportedly said that he wanted to "shoot black people," was motivated by racism. I believe that creepy, scary, gun-toting racialized violence is the most relevant factor here. However, I just don't believe in mono-causal explanations, I guess. As I see it, it doesn't have to be: either mental health or racism. It might be a lethal combination of both. And I strongly suspect that the killer had some untreated mental health issues. I also suspect that he had recently spent a great deal of time online at wingnut sites, marinating in the toxic stew of paranoid white supremacist fantasy and second amendment gun-nuttery. Please understand that this is not at all an expression of sympathy for the killer, for whom, at the moment, I can summon up absolutely no sympathy whatsoever. It is, however, an expression of concern over too-easy access to firearms without sane and reasonable background checks. Who gave this guy a gun?! His father? his uncle? No doubt it was meant to "make a man out of him." It is to shudder.
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Deleted
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Jul 4, 2024 13:31:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 3:59:30 GMT
I read this a few hours ago and have given it much thought and have an honest question for you.
You say that the KKK is "ramping up their recruitment efforts." I'd like to think I'm pretty "aware" and on top of what happens in my neighborhood, zip code, and even metro area. I watch local news, read local news, talk to people when I'm out daily, read signs posted and browse local happenings on the internet.
I can honestly say that I've never seen anything in regards to the KKK...recruitment or otherwise. What am I missing? Where am I not looking? What are you looking at that has you seeing the evidence of the KKK "ramping up their recruitment efforts."
I must add, that my county has an ugly past...that involves a civil rights march and Oprah in the late 80's. One could probably assume that there are people in our county who still believe...but again...I've never seen anything that even hints at any KKK activity.
Just because you don't "see" it yourself doesn't make it untrue. Why does it always have to be about you? I'm not discriminated against like black people are because I'm white. I don't presume that because I don't experience it, it doesn't happen to them.
Sigh.
For the person that cannot comprehend, perhaps you should refrain from jumping to conclusions about what others write.
NOWHERE did I say, hint, or even think (since you know my thoughts and everything) that it was untrue.
You're a freaking lunatic. Seek professional help.
Lucy's linked article is much more informative as to where and how it's happening. Perhaps instead of jumping to nasty conclusions, you could share some of your vast knowledge with the rest of us. Or not.
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Deleted
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Jul 4, 2024 13:31:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 4:02:13 GMT
Thanks for that, Lucy. I guess I just need to look as far as the bottom of my driveway or tacked to my mailbox.
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Jun 20, 2015 4:03:37 GMT
I've seen the KKK ramping up their recruitment efforts. I've read their spiel online where they are quick to connect with other people who agree with them. The Minutemen are busy looking for recruits. In the same manner ISIS is proselytizing online so are our homegrown white supremacist terrorists. They've been stockpiling weapons and waiting for a race war to end all race wars. So am I surprised when a young white male with a history of racial "jokes" and drug use walks into a church and guns down its congregants simply because of their skin color? No, I am absolutely not surprised. Because I see the racism pumping through the veins of our country from state to state. It is so ingrained and institutionalized that it has become the way things naturally are. It's acceptable. And if you question it or push back against it you're playing the "race card" or considered a race baiter. I read this a few hours ago and have given it much thought and have an honest question for you.
You say that the KKK is "ramping up their recruitment efforts." I'd like to think I'm pretty "aware" and on top of what happens in my neighborhood, zip code, and even metro area. I watch local news, read local news, talk to people when I'm out daily, read signs posted and browse local happenings on the internet.
I can honestly say that I've never seen anything in regards to the KKK...recruitment or otherwise. What am I missing? Where am I not looking? What are you looking at that has you seeing the evidence of the KKK "ramping up their recruitment efforts."
I must add, that my county has an ugly past...that involves a civil rights march and Oprah in the late 80's. One could probably assume that there are people in our county who still believe...but again...I've never seen anything that even hints at any KKK activity.
Just recently on KCEN news Facebook page. Another posted on Temple, TX NAACP Facebook page. Those two are local to me. They've already been deleted but the user creates fake profiles and is back at recruiting under different names. When I lived in Oklahoma they had their rallies in a town not too far from where I lived. I'm in Texas and they've got their chapters here as well. When I lived in Germany there were Neo-Nazis and there's no mistaking them when you see them. I've known young white American soldiers who slowly got caught up in it until they became unrecognizable. I can't even begin to tell you about the conspiracy theorists that live in my area. They hate Obama. They are stockpiling weapons. I don't have to go to any special websites to read up on it. They're blatantly posting on news sites and other social media sites.
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Post by kellybelly77 on Jun 20, 2015 4:06:22 GMT
I've seen the KKK ramping up their recruitment efforts. I've read their spiel online where they are quick to connect with other people who agree with them. The Minutemen are busy looking for recruits. In the same manner ISIS is proselytizing online so are our homegrown white supremacist terrorists. They've been stockpiling weapons and waiting for a race war to end all race wars. So am I surprised when a young white male with a history of racial "jokes" and drug use walks into a church and guns down its congregants simply because of their skin color? No, I am absolutely not surprised. Because I see the racism pumping through the veins of our country from state to state. It is so ingrained and institutionalized that it has become the way things naturally are. It's acceptable. And if you question it or push back against it you're playing the "race card" or considered a race baiter. I read this a few hours ago and have given it much thought and have an honest question for you.
You say that the KKK is "ramping up their recruitment efforts." I'd like to think I'm pretty "aware" and on top of what happens in my neighborhood, zip code, and even metro area. I watch local news, read local news, talk to people when I'm out daily, read signs posted and browse local happenings on the internet.
I can honestly say that I've never seen anything in regards to the KKK...recruitment or otherwise. What am I missing? Where am I not looking? What are you looking at that has you seeing the evidence of the KKK "ramping up their recruitment efforts."
I must add, that my county has an ugly past...that involves a civil rights march and Oprah in the late 80's. One could probably assume that there are people in our county who still believe...but again...I've never seen anything that even hints at any KKK activity.
Just this week, maybe Tuesday or Wed, the KKK delivered flyers to mailboxes around our town. It was all over the news, the police even investigated. I'm in Kansas.
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Post by PEArfect on Jun 20, 2015 4:06:21 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 4:09:26 GMT
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Jun 20, 2015 4:14:22 GMT
@gajenny you can also Google (not being snarky here!) "KKK recruitment 2015" to see what news has been reported recently. I just looked and there are a lot of articles covering it.
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Post by freecharlie on Jun 20, 2015 4:23:22 GMT
Just this week, maybe Tuesday or Wed, the KKK delivered flyers to mailboxes around our town. It was all over the news, the police even investigated. I'm in Kansas. ![:crying:](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/t4lmEAqHtTO6q6ksSmvP.jpg) That makes me sick, sad, and mad all at the same time. I cannot wrap my head around the fact that there are people with that much hate and that they are big enough to recruit. It is disgusting. I can't imagine that people don't look back on the crap the KKK has done with horror. I don't think we have a big KKK presence here, but there was a time in the 90s where the skinheads were growing in numbers.
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Deleted
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Jul 4, 2024 13:31:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 4:24:57 GMT
I read this a few hours ago and have given it much thought and have an honest question for you.
You say that the KKK is "ramping up their recruitment efforts." I'd like to think I'm pretty "aware" and on top of what happens in my neighborhood, zip code, and even metro area. I watch local news, read local news, talk to people when I'm out daily, read signs posted and browse local happenings on the internet.
I can honestly say that I've never seen anything in regards to the KKK...recruitment or otherwise. What am I missing? Where am I not looking? What are you looking at that has you seeing the evidence of the KKK "ramping up their recruitment efforts."
I must add, that my county has an ugly past...that involves a civil rights march and Oprah in the late 80's. One could probably assume that there are people in our county who still believe...but again...I've never seen anything that even hints at any KKK activity.
Just recently on KCEN news Facebook page. Another posted on Temple, TX NAACP Facebook page. Those two are local to me. They've already been deleted but the user creates fake profiles and is back at recruiting under different names. When I lived in Oklahoma they had their rallies in a town not too far from where I lived. I'm in Texas and they've got their chapters here as well. When I lived in Germany there were Neo-Nazis and there's no mistaking them when you see them. I've known young white American soldiers who slowly got caught up in it until they became unrecognizable. I can't even begin to tell you about the conspiracy theorists that live in my area. They hate Obama. They are stockpiling weapons. I don't have to go to any special websites to read up on it. They're blatantly posting on news sites and other social media sites. Wow! It's so very blatant. Very bold. I'm sorry that anyone has to see that kind of trash.
Just this week, maybe Tuesday or Wed, the KKK delivered flyers to mailboxes around our town. It was all over the news, the police even investigated. I'm in Kansas. Wow again. So because I am aware of what happens locally I wonder if the KKK is already well enough established in my area thus they don't feel the need to recruit as heavily as in other areas.
GaJenny you can also Google (not being snarky here!) "KKK recruitment 2015" to see what news has been reported recently. I just looked and there are a lot of articles covering it. I guess that's just never something I would've even thought to Google.
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Jun 20, 2015 4:33:08 GMT
Just recently on KCEN news Facebook page. Another posted on Temple, TX NAACP Facebook page. Those two are local to me. They've already been deleted but the user creates fake profiles and is back at recruiting under different names. When I lived in Oklahoma they had their rallies in a town not too far from where I lived. I'm in Texas and they've got their chapters here as well. When I lived in Germany there were Neo-Nazis and there's no mistaking them when you see them. I've known young white American soldiers who slowly got caught up in it until they became unrecognizable. I can't even begin to tell you about the conspiracy theorists that live in my area. They hate Obama. They are stockpiling weapons. I don't have to go to any special websites to read up on it. They're blatantly posting on news sites and other social media sites. Wow! It's so very blatant. Very bold. I'm sorry that anyone has to see that kind of trash.
Just this week, maybe Tuesday or Wed, the KKK delivered flyers to mailboxes around our town. It was all over the news, the police even investigated. I'm in Kansas. Wow again. So because I am aware of what happens locally I wonder if the KKK is already well enough established in my area thus they don't feel the need to recruit as heavily as in other areas.
GaJenny you can also Google (not being snarky here!) "KKK recruitment 2015" to see what news has been reported recently. I just looked and there are a lot of articles covering it. I guess that's just never something I would've even thought to Google. I just googled it now myself. So that goes for both of us! I can only give my own perspective. What I've seen firsthand. And it is incredibly blatant. I was disgusted when I saw them post several fliers on Temple's NAACP Facebook page. I usually see an uptick in recruitment activity after a civil rights protest or terror threat.
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Deleted
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Jul 4, 2024 13:31:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 4:57:05 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 4:58:50 GMT
No to which part? No to stopping the glorification of these mass murderers? No to stopping the fighting and anger with each other? No to having a way to stop a mass murderer as fast as humanly possible? I can't fathom which part of any of that you are saying no to.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
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Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jun 20, 2015 12:16:22 GMT
Yeah. That young man is very well spoken and persuasive. I would recruit him for a debating team in a second. Didn't convince me for a second, though, that an armed populace is the solution. I believe there are too many risks to his solution, and there are other explanations about why and how the American media over-publicize mass murders - and all kinds of other things. [His word - "glorification" - is hyperbole. Repeating the word dozens of times doesn't convince me that most media outlets intend to glorify these guys; nor that most Americans glorify them; nor that disturbed young white suburban men of a certain mindset - and access to guns - will be deterred by the idea of a shoot-out. (Especially if suicide is part of the plan, as it often is.)]
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Deleted
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Jul 4, 2024 13:31:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 12:27:00 GMT
Yeah. That young man is very well spoken and persuasive. I would recruit him for a debating team in a second. Didn't convince me for a second, though, that an armed populace is the solution. I believe there are too many risks to his solution, and there are other explanations about why and how the American media over-publicize mass murders - and all kinds of other things. [His word - "glorification" - is hyperbole. Repeating the word dozens of times doesn't convince me that most media outlets intend to glorify these guys; nor that most Americans glorify them; nor that disturbed young white suburban men of a certain mindset - and access to guns - will be deterred by the idea of a shoot-out. (Especially if suicide is part of the plan, as it often is.)] Well said Amelia.....I watched and sure, he's a great orator but the content was meaningless to me......I don't want an armed populace, nor do I think it will help, just more people dead and I'm sorry, I don't remember ANY of the media outlets that I listened to or read glorifying anything...all I see is horror and frustration at the ever increasing number of times this is happening. What next? Let's see, we've had a movie theater, schools including 24 elementary school children, a college, now a church.......how about a sporting event? NASCAR? NFL? MLB?
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Deleted
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Jul 4, 2024 13:31:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 13:15:14 GMT
Yeah. That young man is very well spoken and persuasive. I would recruit him for a debating team in a second. Didn't convince me for a second, though, that an armed populace is the solution. I believe there are too many risks to his solution, and there are other explanations about why and how the American media over-publicize mass murders - and all kinds of other things. [His word - "glorification" - is hyperbole. Repeating the word dozens of times doesn't convince me that most media outlets intend to glorify these guys; nor that most Americans glorify them; nor that disturbed young white suburban men of a certain mindset - and access to guns - will be deterred by the idea of a shoot-out. (Especially if suicide is part of the plan, as it often is.)] Well said Amelia.....I watched and sure, he's a great orator but the content was meaningless to me......I don't want an armed populace, nor do I think it will help, just more people dead and I'm sorry, I don't remember ANY of the media outlets that I listened to or read glorifying anything...all I see is horror and frustration at the ever increasing number of times this is happening. What next? Let's see, we've had a movie theater, schools including 24 elementary school children, a college, now a church.......how about a sporting event? NASCAR? NFL? MLB? Yes to both of these. I couldn't get my feelings out yesterday because this whole thing has just gotten to me. Thanks for voicing it better than I ever could. More guns are NOT the answer. And that doesn't make me a terrible person like someone is trying to make me out to be.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 13:18:26 GMT
Well here we are again. Another mass murder. The thread is following the same predictable path as other threads of this type. First you have the ones who come on and say how tragic that it his happened. Then it switches to blame. Then deflection. Then the thread dies. Until the next mass murder and it starts all over again with the same result. And so on and so on and so on........ Yesterday in a speech Hillary Clinton asked the question "How many people do we need to see cut down before we act?" I would like to know. I thought for sure something would be done after Sandy Hook. I mean all those dead children. But no. Just a lot of words and no action. On this thread @gajenny feels "making it more and more difficult for law abiding individuals that want to own a firearm does nothing in regards to the problem of guns in the hands of people that shouldn't have them". So she wants to get rid of illegal guns. Fair enough. However based on @gajenny's statement above I'm not she understands just where illegal guns come from. The majority of illegal guns started out as legal. You have gun dealers who sell guns outside of the laws. You have straw purchases. You have private sales where the owner doesn't do his due diligence. You have the theft of guns. So I'm not sure how one can crack down on illegal guns without cracking down on legal guns where most of the illegal guns come from in the first place. i find it really interesting the minute one says "gun owners should be held responsible for their guns" some gun owners get hostile. I don't understand why this is a problem for law abiding responsible gun owners. I mean doesn't being a law abiding responsible gun owner mean that you are responsible for the actions of that gun? So what is the problem? "I disagree to a point. While sometimes there are no signs and there really is nothing we can do, sometimes there are definite mental health signs, but a person doesn't get the treatment they need because of lack of funding or access for mental health. Instead of always blaming the guns, let's' look at mental health services in this country. This guy could have used a homemade bomb just as the gun". Two points. 1. Under the ACA mental health is now to be treated as any other sickness meaning there is greater access. 2. Yes the guy could have made a bomb but it is easy to get a gun. A gun is a quick and efficient way to kill people. Homemade bombs can be messy. Deflection. " Take away the guns from the equation, and those same men would have still committed their crimes, and may have used bombs instead. The delivery method isn't the real problem, it's the mentality behind it". jonda1974 that is a big assumption on your part. You have absolutely have no idea what these men would have done if the guns weren't readily available. Insurance is is not the answer. I don't believe you would find an insurance company or companies that would be willing to write the coverage as most if not all claims would involve a death which would mean the payout would be in the millions. No money to be made. And you know it's all about profit. What I think needs to be done is a national data base that would track the gun from the time it is manufactured or imported to the U.S. until the time it's destroyed. When a gun dealer buys the gun it's entered into the data base and under his name until it's sold. At that time it's sold the gun is transferred to the new owner. If the gun is sold again then it's transferred to the new owner and every new owner there on. If the gun is lost or stolen then the data base must be notified. Because if it's not then any crime committed with the gun the last owner on record will be held as an accessory after the fact. You must be licensed to own a gun and that licensed must be renewed every 5 years. You must take a gun safety class at the time you are first licensed and must take a safety refresher class every time you renew your license. To pay for this national data base every time the gun is registered or reregistered a fee is charged. Everytime the license is renewed a fee is charged. The reason for a national data base? Simple it makes it easier for law enforcement officials to track a gun if it's used to kill someone or use to commit a crime. For true law abiding responsible gun owners this should not be a problem. Oh one last requirement. When the gun or guns are in the home they should be unloaded and in a place where little ones can't get their hands on them. If they should and kill themself or another child then the owner of said gun will get his/her ass hauled off to jail and they will be charged with murder. Tough? Maybe but if you really are a law abiding responsible gun owner this should not be a problem. But of course none of this will happen because most of the gun owners will be jumping up and down screaming about their second amendment rights. Well these folks had better be wearing boots because when they land they will jumping in the blood of the innocent people killed in these relentless killings. Hillary asked the question of how many people do we need to see cut down before we act. My answer is it seems we are not there yet and may not be therE yet. I swore I would not jump back into this circle jerk, this non-ending, common senseless attack on personal liberties everytime a whack job uses a gun to kill people...but I can never seem to let your brand of "gun control" go unchecked, Krazy... Because your brand of "gun control" is all about controlling the people who do not use their guns for evil, and lets those that do use guns for evil continue unabated and actually emboldens them. Please explain to us exactly how your brilliant database idea would have PREVENTED this, or any other mass shooting? No need to wait for your answer...because it wouldn't have prevented any of them. You think that this sick bastard would have chosen not to go buy that gun (LEGALLY) because he knew it would be entered into a database? News flash, dear - he was identified from his pictures and description of his car, not by the gun he was carrying. So by advocating a gun database as your be all, end all solution, all you are saying is that its fine that crime and murders will still be committed by criminals who obtain guns through theft... but at least now we can prosecute the person they were stolen from! In what country is it acceptable to prosecute an innocent person because someone else used an item stolen from them to cause harm? You are absolutely INSANE, Krazy. Insane! But there is still the small problem of...how do you trace a gun in a database when all you have is a dead body and a spent bullet? Unless the criminal leaves the weapon by the body, you don't have a way to connect it to your precious database. So your database serves NO purpose, except to keep tabs on the legal gun owners, 98% of whom will never lose or have their weapons stolen, nor use them for evil purposes. Let's also remember that many weapons have been stolen precisely because legal, licensed owners tried to obey laws in the first place, by leaving their weapons in a locked car when they had to go into a gun free establishment. It takes just a few minutes for a skilled criminal to break into a car and get that gun. now who's fault is it that the gun was stolen? I say it's the governments and the establishment that made them take it off. So who are you going to prosecute now when that gun is used in a robbery or murder? See, you keep ignoring the fact that every criminal who commits a crime with a gun is already breaking dozens of local, state and federal gun laws. Your belief that just ONE MORE law will stop any of this from happening is laughable in its stupidity. So just freaking stop with your pretense and just admit it - you and others are all for a database as a means to confiscate all weapons in the future. Because that is how this always ends. Except then the only ones with the guns will be the bad guys and the government. And then we would have even more blood in our streets, and good guys don't have the ability to stop the bad guys like this woman did at another church.
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Post by anxiousmom on Jun 20, 2015 14:06:27 GMT
I've seen the KKK ramping up their recruitment efforts. I've read their spiel online where they are quick to connect with other people who agree with them. The Minutemen are busy looking for recruits. In the same manner ISIS is proselytizing online so are our homegrown white supremacist terrorists. They've been stockpiling weapons and waiting for a race war to end all race wars. So am I surprised when a young white male with a history of racial "jokes" and drug use walks into a church and guns down its congregants simply because of their skin color? No, I am absolutely not surprised. Because I see the racism pumping through the veins of our country from state to state. It is so ingrained and institutionalized that it has become the way things naturally are. It's acceptable. And if you question it or push back against it you're playing the "race card" or considered a race baiter. I read this a few hours ago and have given it much thought and have an honest question for you.
You say that the KKK is "ramping up their recruitment efforts." I'd like to think I'm pretty "aware" and on top of what happens in my neighborhood, zip code, and even metro area. I watch local news, read local news, talk to people when I'm out daily, read signs posted and browse local happenings on the internet.
I can honestly say that I've never seen anything in regards to the KKK...recruitment or otherwise. What am I missing? Where am I not looking? What are you looking at that has you seeing the evidence of the KKK "ramping up their recruitment efforts."
I must add, that my county has an ugly past...that involves a civil rights march and Oprah in the late 80's. One could probably assume that there are people in our county who still believe...but again...I've never seen anything that even hints at any KKK activity. I can't speak for other areas of the country, only my little slice of the world. I have said on these types of threads that I grew up in and live in the south. I grew up with both overt and covert racists. I grew up knowing people who would deny with their last breath that were racists, but wouldn't think twice about laughing at racists jokes. I grew up with all the code words, the side glances and the subtle behaviors of those who didn't openly proclaim their racist views. I have also been around long enough to see the ebbs and flows in the overt racists attempts at recruiting. I remember the times where the KKK and other hate groups would have rallies and they would be outnumbered by significant numbers by those who protest against hate. But I have to say, I am also seeing a resurgence of overt racism lately. Whether or not the hate groups are more heavily recruiting, I can't say for sure, but based on what I see and hear, I wouldn't be surprised one bit.
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Post by foolana on Jun 20, 2015 16:45:47 GMT
Telling someone to get professional help as an insult is an awful thing to say to anyone. It's nice that you think just because someone doesn't agree with you then they must need psychiatric help. It's sad that you think accusing someone of being mentally ill is an insult. Wow.
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Post by freecharlie on Jun 20, 2015 16:46:16 GMT
Yeah. That young man is very well spoken and persuasive. I would recruit him for a debating team in a second. Didn't convince me for a second, though, that an armed populace is the solution. I believe there are too many risks to his solution, and there are other explanations about why and how the American media over-publicize mass murders - and all kinds of other things. [His word - "glorification" - is hyperbole. Repeating the word dozens of times doesn't convince me that most media outlets intend to glorify these guys; nor that most Americans glorify them; nor that disturbed young white suburban men of a certain mindset - and access to guns - will be deterred by the idea of a shoot-out. (Especially if suicide is part of the plan, as it often is.)] Well said Amelia.....I watched and sure, he's a great orator but the content was meaningless to me......I don't want an armed populace, nor do I think it will help, just more people dead and I'm sorry, I don't remember ANY of the media outlets that I listened to or read glorifying anything...all I see is horror and frustration at the ever increasing number of times this is happening. What next? Let's see, we've had a movie theater, schools including 24 elementary school children, a college, now a church.......how about a sporting event? NASCAR? NFL? MLB? I didn't watch the clip, but is it possible, he meant glorifying in that the shooters get name recognition? That the shooters get to live on in infamy. Many people know who Eric Harris and Dylan Kleibold are, but how many of their victims names do you remember, especially if you don't live in Colorado? Is it possible that the constant focus on the shooter is what he meant by glorifying? (Again, I didn't watch the clip. )
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Post by jumperhop on Jun 20, 2015 17:29:42 GMT
I am going turn into crazy ass Jennifer if one more of my Facebook friends blames medicine for mass murders! So the right is saying medicine is at fault and the left is saying guns are at fault. This country needs to take mental illness more seriously IMHO this is where the problem lies. My FB friend list is getting smaller. ![:smile:](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Jen
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