elainebenis
Junior Member
Posts: 50
Jul 3, 2014 23:26:11 GMT
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Post by elainebenis on Jun 19, 2015 4:03:19 GMT
The fact that the Right Wing Wurlitzer is in lockstep, furiously spinning this as a "Christian" hate crime absolutely sickens and enrages me. "You’re raping our women and taking over the country." That's straight up from the Fox News/RW radio playbook - Chapter 7 'Scary Black Thugs'. Mr Roof is YOUR Frankenstein monster, you fucking bald-faced liars: “I never heard him say anything, but just he had that kind of Southern pride, I guess some would say. Strong conservative beliefs,” he said. “He made a lot of racist jokes, but you don’t really take them seriously like that. You don’t really think of it like that.” More if you can stomach it.
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Post by Kelpea on Jun 19, 2015 4:22:16 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 4:26:29 GMT
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Post by marykate on Jun 19, 2015 5:01:44 GMT
The fact that the Right Wing Wurlitzer is in lockstep, furiously spinning this as a "Christian" hate crime absolutely sickens and enrages me. The mendacity is quite astonishing, isn't it? Look, I suspect the killer has some mental health issues. But to say this is not to support a "lone wolf" theory, where we don't even know, cannot even imagine, where he was coming from. He didn't come up with "shoot black people" all on his own. He was attempting to enact, he was acting out, some vicious and toxic pre-existing cultural scripts. There is a broader social and cultural context here; there is a socio-economic-political history, and that history has everything to do with racism, racial hierarchies, and racial violence. It makes me feel sick. Who gave this creature a gun, btw? That was clever. NOT.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 5:21:56 GMT
"You’re raping our women and taking over the country." That's straight up from the Fox News/RW radio playbook - Chapter 7 'Scary Black Thugs'. No, there's nothing like that on Fox News.
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elainebenis
Junior Member
Posts: 50
Jul 3, 2014 23:26:11 GMT
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Post by elainebenis on Jun 19, 2015 6:44:09 GMT
"You’re raping our women and taking over the country." That's straight up from the Fox News/RW radio playbook - Chapter 7 'Scary Black Thugs'. No, there's nothing like that on Fox News.
Tell that to Trayvon Martin's parents. Or Mike Brown's.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 8:23:28 GMT
No, there's nothing like that on Fox News.
Tell that to Trayvon Martin's parents. Or Mike Brown's.
I'm telling you, Fox news has never said... ...or anything you could even remotely twist to insinuate that ideology comes from them. Using Fox News in that way does nothing but create a new way to divide us up. After a horrible tragedy like this we're supposed to overcome the divides that exist, not find new ways to divide.
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Post by Patter on Jun 19, 2015 10:09:18 GMT
Just found out that one of the victims was an admissions counselor at my girls university. She was on the Charleston campus. So sad for all of the lives lost! That is so sad. I'm sorry for your girls' college community's loss. Thank you. They didn't know her personally but it has hit the university community with great sadness. The loss of all 9 of these victims is so tragic and sad!
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back to *pea*ality
Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
Posts: 3,149
Jun 25, 2014 19:51:11 GMT
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Jun 19, 2015 10:13:20 GMT
"You’re raping our women and taking over the country." That's straight up from the Fox......No, there's nothing like that on Fox News. The words bolded were reportedly said by the gunmen, I heard that reported on CNN.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 11:05:30 GMT
No, there's nothing like that on Fox News. The words bolded were reportedly said by the gunmen, I heard that reported on CNN. The shooter reportedly said "You rape our women...you're taking over our country...you have to go." He did NOT say (based on the witness report I said anything about Fox news) (and if you note, what you "bolded" about Fox news was NOT in quotation marks)
The idea of Fox news being blamed for this came from an interview on CNN. What a surprise.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EYCa0x82ew#t=49
More facts reported on NBC news (clearly no friend of Fox)
"Sylvia Johnson, a cousin of church shooting victim Pastor Clementa Pinckney says she spoke with one of the survivors "and she said that he had reloaded five different times... and he just said 'I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.'"
www.nbcnews.com/video/church-gunman-reportedly-said-i-have-to-do-it-467402819802
There's plenty of hate in this nation. Plenty on this very thread including the person that claimed that the shooter made any reference to Fox news. It is not true.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 11:13:07 GMT
No, there's nothing like that on Fox News.
Tell that to Trayvon Martin's parents. Or Mike Brown's.
WTF are you talking about? Better yet...I don't want to know.
You are filled with hate and lashing out...facts be damned.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jun 19, 2015 12:07:11 GMT
- This is awful. We visited Charleston recently and toured many of their churches and historical church graveyards. The church staff and churchgoers we met were, to a person, gracious and welcoming - so much so that we all commented on it. I keep thinking about their pain.
- How does a young man accumulate so much hatred in such a short life? I know he probably had real human influences, but I always wonder what role the Internet has had in shaping these murderers. These guys can access kindred spirits with the click of a button.
- And Chicago: two other states are within spitting distance and three others within a short drive. The issue of gun availability and gun control is much more complicated than it seems.
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Post by Skypea on Jun 19, 2015 12:37:46 GMT
then you have selective hearing... the black minister brought up that it might be against Christians.
and AS Doocey said, they hadn't been told all the facts yet... do you know what time that show is on in the morning?
Wrong, they knew it was racially motivated LAST NIGHT. This has nothing to do with Christians. Everything to do with race. who are the 'they' that knew it?
and you know for a fact that the black minister KNEW that when he was interviewed?
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Post by cade387 on Jun 19, 2015 12:43:02 GMT
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Post by redayh on Jun 19, 2015 13:07:37 GMT
1) It was racially motivated. The SHOOTER himself said so. If you choose to ignore that then you have your own agenda.
2) "Out of the Fox News Playbook," does not mean that it was said specifically on Fox news. You guys know that.
3) Seriously, turning this into a Chicago shooting/black-on-black crime conversation? Why do some of you ALWAYS do that? Why can't this just be about what it is actually about....some crazy nutjob white supremacist shooting up a bunch of people in a church because they are black(and this is from HIM, not me). It's a horrible crime. We don't have to compare it to anything else to try to make it "less" horrible. It stands on its own.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 13:19:13 GMT
Wrong, they knew it was racially motivated LAST NIGHT. This has nothing to do with Christians. Everything to do with race. who are the 'they' that knew it?
and you know for a fact that the black minister KNEW that when he was interviewed?
If he didn't he shouldn't go on air making false claims. You can't be this dumb skypea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 13:28:59 GMT
1) It was racially motivated. The SHOOTER himself said so. If you choose to ignore that then you have your own agenda. 2) "Out of the Fox News Playbook," does not mean that it was said specifically on Fox news. You guys know that. 3) Seriously, turning this into a Chicago shooting/black-on-black crime conversation? Why do some of you ALWAYS do that? Why can't this just be about what it is actually about....some crazy nutjob white supremacist shooting up a bunch of people in a church because they are black(and this is from HIM, not me). It's a horrible crime. We don't have to compare it to anything else to try to make it "less" horrible. It stands on its own.I agree. When I brought up the gun violence statistics in Chicago it was in direct relation to someone stating that we must have even more gun control...even more laws. My point in bringing it up had nothing to do with black/black or white/white crime and had nothing to do with Obama.
I brought up Chicago gun violence in direct relation to the discussion (brought up too soon, IMO) about tightening gun control laws. I simply pointed out the facts that most people already know. Chicago has some of the toughest gun control laws on the books in this nation, yet their gun violence exceeds the gun violence in NYC and Los Angeles COMBINED. Nothing to do with race, Obama, or trying to downplay or compare this horrific crime in Charleston to anything else. It does stand on its own and it was the shooter's hatred.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 13:34:14 GMT
Excuse me for bringing up gun control "too soon". Personally I think it is decades too late. We have a serious issue in this country and no one is willing to do anything about it. Breaks my heart.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 13:38:50 GMT
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Post by Regina Phalange on Jun 19, 2015 14:07:43 GMT
Honestly, that's like saying, since heart disease is the #1 cause of death in the country, we need to put all of our medical resources into curing that, because that kills the most people. Cancer, diabetes and such will have to wait, because they don't kill as many people. Except that's not what I'm saying. I still support extensive background checks. I support keeping weapons out of the hands of the mentally ill and criminal. I support holding individuals responsible for their actions in regards to the careless handling and "distribution" of legal guns.
To use your analogy, you're saying that we have to ignore the heart disease as the #1 killer of people in this nation, because we're so focused on cancer and diabetes. I say that you cannot ignore the numbers and to focus on the relatively small number (and yes...ANY number of mass murder victims is terrible) of those killed in highly publicized mass murder incidents while failing to acknowledge that many, MANY more individuals are killed with our illegal gun epidemic and then want to put at least as much effort into fixing that problem. Let's make it even more difficult for law abiding citizens to carry a weapon if they so choose to all while knowing that the criminals are going to have guns and give zero shits that they're carrying an illegal weapon. If some people have their way, the only people with the guns are going to be the criminals. Again, I"ll say that I've never had a gun, have no desire to have a gun and can't fathom ever taking the steps to own a gun. But I also don't want to live in a world where the bad guys are the only ones with guns.
Like Scrappower said earlier, there's no one that's going to change their mind. No, that's not what my analogy was saying at all. I was not proposing the opposite of what you are. You can work on cures for heart disease, cancer and diabetes all at the same time. One is not more important than the other just because it effects more people. Your argument is saying that we need to find out how to fix the illegal gun issue BEFORE we address the mass shooting issue because so many more people are dying from illegal guns. Just because illegal guns are killing people doesn't negate the fact that its way to easy for people to get killed with LEGAL guns as well - whether through mass shootings, domestic violence or even accidents. They ALL matter.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 14:44:23 GMT
Except that's not what I'm saying. I still support extensive background checks. I support keeping weapons out of the hands of the mentally ill and criminal. I support holding individuals responsible for their actions in regards to the careless handling and "distribution" of legal guns.
To use your analogy, you're saying that we have to ignore the heart disease as the #1 killer of people in this nation, because we're so focused on cancer and diabetes. I say that you cannot ignore the numbers and to focus on the relatively small number (and yes...ANY number of mass murder victims is terrible) of those killed in highly publicized mass murder incidents while failing to acknowledge that many, MANY more individuals are killed with our illegal gun epidemic and then want to put at least as much effort into fixing that problem. Let's make it even more difficult for law abiding citizens to carry a weapon if they so choose to all while knowing that the criminals are going to have guns and give zero shits that they're carrying an illegal weapon. If some people have their way, the only people with the guns are going to be the criminals. Again, I"ll say that I've never had a gun, have no desire to have a gun and can't fathom ever taking the steps to own a gun. But I also don't want to live in a world where the bad guys are the only ones with guns.
Like Scrappower said earlier, there's no one that's going to change their mind. No, that's not what my analogy was saying at all. I was not proposing the opposite of what you are. You can work on cures for heart disease, cancer and diabetes all at the same time. One is not more important than the other just because it effects more people. Your argument is saying that we need to find out how to fix the illegal gun issue BEFORE we address the mass shooting issue because so many more people are dying from illegal guns. Just because illegal guns are killing people doesn't negate the fact that its way to easy for people to get killed with LEGAL guns as well - whether through mass shootings, domestic violence or even accidents. They ALL matter. I truly believe we're having a disconnect.
My whole point of becoming involved from a "gun control" POV was Scrappower saying "something must be done" and calling for more laws...stricter laws. I don't think our knee jerk reaction needs to always be more and stricter laws. I'd like to know why the laws on the books (and yes, even the laws in Chicago and the state of IL) are clearly FAILING. Maybe we should look at those laws, why they're failing, and tweak THE LAWS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS before we just randomly start shouting for even more (ineffective) laws that won't solve the problem. If extensive laws already on the books aren't making an impact, why add even more laws that either can't be or aren't enforced to make a positive change in the gun violence in this nation? That baffles me.
I've already said (what feels like 100 times on this thread) that I fully support extensive background checks and that we need to do better to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, felons etc. I've also said that the shooter's father should be held responsible for giving his son a gun and people with guns across the country that don't secure them and kids finding them and killing one another in our homes need to be held responsible. That kind of stuff isn't an accident. It's carelessness and there should be a consequence for that. So I never once said that we should not focus on killings with legal guns...nor did I either compare or in any way attempt to place a value either on the lives of victims in Chicago (black on black, white on white, Obama's hometown or not) and in any way try to downplay the horror that happened in Charleston.
If my intent wasn't clear, hopefully this post clears it up. Of course I know there are at least a few waiting to put words in my mouth or intent in my heart and I can't help them. Their hatred shows in their posts and in the words they're trying to put into my mouth.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jun 19, 2015 14:53:00 GMT
The words bolded were reportedly said by the gunmen, I heard that reported on CNN. The shooter reportedly said "You rape our women...you're taking over our country...you have to go." He did NOT say (based on the witness report I said anything about Fox news) (and if you note, what you "bolded" about Fox news was NOT in quotation marks)
The idea of Fox news being blamed for this came from an interview on CNN. What a surprise.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EYCa0x82ew#t=49
More facts reported on NBC news (clearly no friend of Fox)
"Sylvia Johnson, a cousin of church shooting victim Pastor Clementa Pinckney says she spoke with one of the survivors "and she said that he had reloaded five different times... and he just said 'I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.'"
www.nbcnews.com/video/church-gunman-reportedly-said-i-have-to-do-it-467402819802
There's plenty of hate in this nation. Plenty on this very thread including the person that claimed that the shooter made any reference to Fox news. It is not true.
She was saying FOX News reported that is what the shooter said.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jun 19, 2015 14:54:32 GMT
Excuse me for bringing up gun control "too soon". Personally I think it is decades too late. We have a serious issue in this country and no one is willing to do anything about it. Breaks my heart. You can not discuss this incident WITHOUT talking about gun control and racism. Those are the salient points in this discussion.
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Post by Regina Phalange on Jun 19, 2015 14:55:51 GMT
No, that's not what my analogy was saying at all. I was not proposing the opposite of what you are. You can work on cures for heart disease, cancer and diabetes all at the same time. One is not more important than the other just because it effects more people. Your argument is saying that we need to find out how to fix the illegal gun issue BEFORE we address the mass shooting issue because so many more people are dying from illegal guns. Just because illegal guns are killing people doesn't negate the fact that its way to easy for people to get killed with LEGAL guns as well - whether through mass shootings, domestic violence or even accidents. They ALL matter. I truly believe we're having a disconnect.
My whole point of becoming involved from a "gun control" POV was Scrappower saying "something must be done" and calling for more laws...stricter laws. I don't think our knee jerk reaction needs to always be more and stricter laws. I'd like to know why the laws on the books (and yes, even the laws in Chicago and the state of IL) are clearly FAILING. Maybe we should look at those laws, why they're failing, and tweak THE LAWS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS before we just randomly start shouting for even more (ineffective) laws that won't solve the problem. If extensive laws already on the books aren't making an impact, why add even more laws that either can't be or aren't enforced to make a positive change in the gun violence in this nation? That baffles me.
I've already said (what feels like 100 times on this thread) that I fully support extensive background checks and that we need to do better to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, felons etc. I've also said that the shooter's father should be held responsible for giving his son a gun and people with guns across the country that don't secure them and kids finding them and killing one another in our homes need to be held responsible. That kind of stuff isn't an accident. It's carelessness and there should be a consequence for that. So I never once said that we should not focus on killings with legal guns...nor did I either compare or in any way attempt to place a value either on the lives of victims in Chicago (black on black, white on white, Obama's hometown or not) and in any way try to downplay the horror that happened in Charleston.
If my intent wasn't clear, hopefully this post clears it up. Of course I know there are at least a few waiting to put words in my mouth or intent in my heart and I can't help them. Their hatred shows in their posts and in the words they're trying to put into my mouth.
You may have mentioned some of that here and there, but from MY experience in reading your gun posts is that the only thing people are hearing from you is "we need to solve the illegal gun problem first" before we can think about doing anything about all the other gun violence going on. That's what I've been getting from you. I do know that you didn't bring anything up about black on black, etc...but every time you post about gun control, it sounds like "we can't do anything until we get rid of the illegal guns first!" So I'm just putting that out there for you.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jun 19, 2015 15:18:56 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 15:42:31 GMT
Reading that made me sick. That is beyond repulsive
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Post by jonda1974 on Jun 19, 2015 15:43:19 GMT
Almost every illegal gun in this country started out as a legal gun. Whether it's through burglary, black market sales or gun show sales that are not regulated, a gun that gets into the hands of someone who legally cannot have it has most likely been brought into the situation through our lax and useless gun laws or through crime. You have it backwards, @gajenny.
And StacyAngel, do you ever have anything nice to say? Don't you have some nail polish to squeal over? You never add anything to a discussion I'm involved in except to insult me. That's really sad.
ETA: Perhaps a more useful discussion would involve an examination of how legal guns get into illegal hands. That certainly has more credence here in this thread about a how a person with a LEGAL gun murdered 9 people in cold blood. I still don't understand what Chicago (aka Obama) has to do with the Charleston case. You're unreal...So Chicago is off-limits simply because Obama is from there? Gotcha...Chicago has the tightest gun control laws, and the most gun violence. That is WHY it is relevant to any discussion of gun control. Because people advocating gun control do the math this way... Gun Control Laws > Gun Violence Chicago is a perfect example that that is not a true equation. The violence in SC is gut-wrenching and most definitely a hate crime. The shooter is a white trash thug. Do we know what his previous arrests were for? The root of the problem is something even liberal progressives have no desire to take the time to fix, and that is the psychology of the shooters. WHAT inside them is a common denominator? Is there one? Until we tackle the "why" of the crime, we will never really be effective at controlling the "how" of the crime. But everyone wants a quick fix, so they fly off about gun control, because it's an easy solution. But prohibition of any kind, builds crime. We should have learned that by now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 15:51:06 GMT
I've had to take some time to process this awful hate crime and as I said in a previous post, the comments on social media and in the blogasphere have been appalling to read and it really shook me up so I've put a self-imposed ban on myself to avoid doing that again BUT there are a few things that I have read or watched that I need to comment on....
The very idea that Lindsey Graham would insinuate on national television that this is an attack on Christians is the biggest bunch of bullshit I've heard since the murders happened......yes, the victims were Christian but that is not the reason they were targeted and murdered.
I also have BIG problems with the State of South Carolina still flying the Confederate Flag next to their State House. The very symbol of slavery and black oppression flying near a black church where nine of it's members where murdered because they were black leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and frankly, I find it and anyone who defends it appalling and I'd sure like to hear their defense and justification.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,990
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Jun 19, 2015 16:14:32 GMT
And what things in our culture - big culture, little culture - breed the kind of rage, fear and paranoia that result in these crimes happening over and over. We're not supposed to talk about that though; (put on your sarcasm goggles for this next part) it's just one of those things. Crazy is as crazy does. We have NO IDEA why he thought those things and killed those people. It's just a tragedy. There is absolutely nothing we can do to keep tragedies like this from happening again.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 16:16:38 GMT
That is absolutely appalling. The NRA is walking a very thin line these days.
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