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Post by foolana on Jun 18, 2015 23:01:44 GMT
@gajenny, why no statistics for any other cities? Do you not realize your own motivation? It's hard to take you seriously when you're so obviously biased.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 18, 2015 23:04:39 GMT
This is a comment I saw when I googled about flying flags at half mast. "The flag pole on the dome has an American flag on top and the proper state flag under it. In front of the S.C. House, out near the street, is a statue and directly behind the statue is a very old flagpole with a confederate flag. Looking straight on, you cannot see that flag or the pole. The obscure placement seems to imply historic representation only, and any half mast observance would be done up on the dome." It seems to me that *all* flags should be at half mast if there is a call for flags to be at half mast. Maybe that's not actual flag etiquette, but especially in this situation, the optics are TERRIBLE that a Confederate flag, of all flags, is left flying high. Take Down the Confederate Flag - Now by Ta-Nehisi Coates for The Atlantic
Very much worth the read as well. I think the optics are terrible regardless. Putting the confederate flag at half mast makes it seem even more of a legitimate flag flying for the state government as oppose to a flag flying for the Confederate war memorial it's attached to -
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 23:08:04 GMT
@gajenny, why no statistics for any other cities? Do you not realize your own motivation? It's hard to take you seriously when you're so obviously biased. AGAIN.
Why do I focus on Chicago?
"Shootings in Chicago exceed those in the nation's two larger cities this year even though New York and Los Angeles are each seeing an uptick in violence over the last two years.
Through the end of May, 510 people had been shot in New York City — a city more than three times the size of Chicago — compared with 467 during the year-earlier period, a 9 percent increase, according to New York Police Department statistics.
In L.A., a city with over a million more people than Chicago, 438 people had been shot as of May 30, a 21 percent increase during the year-earlier period when there were 362, Los Angeles Police Department statistics show."
www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-one-thousand-shootings-met-20150608-story.html
You are able to comprehend the words here, right? There are more shootings in Chicago than in NYC and Los Angeles COMBINED. You still don't understand why there's focus on Chicago?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 23:15:09 GMT
And for the record, I've given statistics for NYC and Los Angeles as well.
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Post by Skypea on Jun 18, 2015 23:15:23 GMT
@gajenny, why no statistics for any other cities? Do you not realize your own motivation? It's hard to take you seriously when you're so obviously biased. duh. it's on the news too. maybe not on news you watch/read tho. motivation would be that more young blacks are killed on a regular basis in Chicago... BO chimes in about other young blacks being killed (if by someone white), otherwise he is mum about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 23:17:03 GMT
@gajenny, why no statistics for any other cities? Do you not realize your own motivation? It's hard to take you seriously when you're so obviously biased. AGAIN.
Why do I focus on Chicago?
"Shootings in Chicago exceed those in the nation's two larger cities this year even though New York and Los Angeles are each seeing an uptick in violence over the last two years.
Through the end of May, 510 people had been shot in New York City — a city more than three times the size of Chicago — compared with 467 during the year-earlier period, a 9 percent increase, according to New York Police Department statistics.
In L.A., a city with over a million more people than Chicago, 438 people had been shot as of May 30, a 21 percent increase during the year-earlier period when there were 362, Los Angeles Police Department statistics show."
www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-one-thousand-shootings-met-20150608-story.html
You are able to comprehend the words here, right? There are more shootings in Chicago than in NYC and Los Angeles COMBINED. You still don't understand why there's focus on Chicago?
You might have made a better argument by referencing senseless shootings in the entire country instead of zeroing in on Chicago. Otherwise it makes you look like your taking a potshot at President Obama because Chicago is what considers his hometown. For the record all of these killings are tragic regardless if they are in NY, LA, here in the SF Bay Area, or Chicago. And should be noted as such.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 23:20:08 GMT
Good point, Darcy Collins. It's just absurd they still fly that thing.
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Post by foolana on Jun 18, 2015 23:46:21 GMT
What does the murder of 9 black people in a church in South Carolina have to do with the gun crime in Chicago, @gajenny? Absolutely nothing. This crime was committed with a LEGAL GUN (a gift, for cripes' sake) by a supposed white supremacist. Comparing it to (your preoccupation with) gun murders in Obama's hometown is merely blowing partisan smoke up our butts.
Jeez.
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Post by lucyg on Jun 18, 2015 23:50:50 GMT
Good point, Darcy Collins. It's just absurd they still fly that thing. I shared your Atlantic article on my facebook (which I only post on maybe once a month or less) ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/MNrJDkDuSwqIMVw33MdD.jpg) ... it's very deep, very moving. I've thought ever since that uproar ten or so years ago that that flag needs to just GO. It's nothing but a symbol for bigotry and violence.
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Post by foolana on Jun 18, 2015 23:52:02 GMT
@gajenny , why no statistics for any other cities? Do you not realize your own motivation? It's hard to take you seriously when you're so obviously biased. duh. it's on the news too. maybe not on news you watch/read tho. motivation would be that more young blacks are killed on a regular basis in Chicago... BO chimes in about other young blacks being killed (if by someone white), otherwise he is mum about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 23:59:14 GMT
Your "preoccupation" with me is duly noted, foolana.
For the record, I've not mentioned Obama one time. I've mentioned Chicago and the gun violence there for obvious reasons. (the number of shootings in Chicago exceed those of NYC and Los Angeles COMBINED which is not a partisan number nor a number I pulled out of my ass but documented by Chicago press)
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Post by foolana on Jun 19, 2015 0:29:50 GMT
Your "preoccupation" with me is duly noted, foolana. For the record, I've not mentioned Obama one time. I've mentioned Chicago and the gun violence there for obvious reasons. (the number of shootings in Chicago exceed those of NYC and Los Angeles COMBINED which is not a partisan number nor a number I pulled out of my ass but documented by Chicago press) Not preoccupied with you at all but disgusted with your partisan nonsense in a thread about a horrific murder. Gun control SHOULDN'T be a partisan issue; it should be a human issue. Trying to derail the story of a white man murdering black people by glibly reminding us that black people kill black people too is vile. Is it that hard to admit that white people do horrendous things without bringing up the crimes committed by black people?
You'll never admit how racist your posts have been on this thread so I'm done responding to you. You have to want to change; anything I say here is going to make you dig in even more.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 0:40:53 GMT
I never said anything at all about black people killing black people nor have I been glib.
I brought up the gun control issue because it was mentioned how many more gun control laws are needed. All the gun control laws aren't helping Chicago...and the numbers are all right there.
Sorry you cannot grasp those numbers because you're too focused on putting words in my mouth and you're so focused on me.
It hurts to look at the numbers I've cited. You cannot argue that.
Personally, I thought it was too soon to drag politics or gun control and I only addressed it because it was brought up several times.
I firmly believe in gun control and support extensive background checks and keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. But I do not support extensive changes to our gun laws...not because I'm heartless or "glib" but because we've seen in the Chicago numbers that extensive changes and countless laws and control do not solve the problem of illegal guns. I think we as a nation need to get a handle on controlling illegal guns before making it even more difficult for citizens lawfully allowed to have a gun. Many more people are killed with illegal guns than legal guns...why not start with changes to the system that will make the most impact and save the most lives? That doesn't make me racist, glib, or uncaring about the tragedy in Charleston, Aurora, or Sandy Hook. That makes me able to comprehend the numbers and perhaps where the attention needs to be focused first and strongest.
Buy you're not reading this...which is unfortunate.
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Post by foolana on Jun 19, 2015 1:14:38 GMT
Almost every illegal gun in this country started out as a legal gun. Whether it's through burglary, black market sales or gun show sales that are not regulated, a gun that gets into the hands of someone who legally cannot have it has most likely been brought into the situation through our lax and useless gun laws or through crime. You have it backwards, @gajenny.
And StacyAngel, do you ever have anything nice to say? Don't you have some nail polish to squeal over? You never add anything to a discussion I'm involved in except to insult me. That's really sad.
ETA: Perhaps a more useful discussion would involve an examination of how legal guns get into illegal hands. That certainly has more credence here in this thread about a how a person with a LEGAL gun murdered 9 people in cold blood. I still don't understand what Chicago (aka Obama) has to do with the Charleston case.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jun 19, 2015 1:30:28 GMT
I lived in Chicago for years. I know the issues. I just don't agree with you one bit that we ignore one for the other. I think there needs to be across the board federal guidelines, background checks, medical checks, registration and licensing. It's way too easy where I live and many other places. No one has to agree with me. But that's how I feel. My mind will not be swayed. But none of those proposed changes are going to make a difference when so many have illegal guns.
To possess or purchase firearms or ammunition, Illinois residents must have a Firearm Owner's Identification (FOID) card, which is issued by the Illinois State Police. The police must issue FOID cards to eligible applicants. An applicant is disqualified if he or she has been convicted of a felony or an act of domestic violence, is the subject of an order of protection, has been convicted of assault or battery or been a patient in a mental institution within the last five years, has been adjudicated as a mental defective, or is an illegal immigrant. There are additional requirements for applicants under the age of 21.
Bold emphasis mine. I am so tired of the illegal guns argument as a reason not to regulate guns!!! Almost every single mass murder over the last 10 years has been done by a while male with a legally obtained gun!! It's time to look at solutions to our increasing hate and violent crimes in America and accept that we as a nation have to do something about it!!
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Post by foolana on Jun 19, 2015 1:31:58 GMT
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Post by anxiousmom on Jun 19, 2015 1:43:38 GMT
Did this father know this son? As in, did they have enough contact to expect the father to have known about the arrests or white supremacy thoughts? Would a reasonable person have known? Not sure of the family dynamics in this case. My son and I talked about this today-as in wondering if any of us would recognize the signs of someone who is about to commit an act of violence. I think my family dynamics are such that I would, but then again, sometimes teenagers and young people can be secretive to the point that they mask a great deal and we miss a lot of signs of upcoming issues. I would hope that I would, but my 'mama goggles' might miss something I don't want to see or dismiss because I don't want to believe it. I love talking to my kid, he always has such interesting views that don't always mirror mine. More often than not it gives me something to think about it and from time to time causes me to reconsider somethings that I have always thought to be pretty solid.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jun 19, 2015 1:45:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 1:48:56 GMT
But none of those proposed changes are going to make a difference when so many have illegal guns.
To possess or purchase firearms or ammunition, Illinois residents must have a Firearm Owner's Identification (FOID) card, which is issued by the Illinois State Police. The police must issue FOID cards to eligible applicants. An applicant is disqualified if he or she has been convicted of a felony or an act of domestic violence, is the subject of an order of protection, has been convicted of assault or battery or been a patient in a mental institution within the last five years, has been adjudicated as a mental defective, or is an illegal immigrant. There are additional requirements for applicants under the age of 21.
Bold emphasis mine. I am so tired of the illegal guns argument as a reason not to regulate guns!!! Almost every single mass murder over the last 10 years has been done by a while male with a legally obtained gun!! It's time to look at solutions to our increasing hate and violent crimes in America and accept that we as a nation have to do something about it!! And frankly, I'm so tired of the sole focus on gun control being on further restricting lawful gun ownership while failing to acknowledge that the bulk of lives lost are done so with illegal weapons.
I'd much rather focus efforts where it's going to have the most impact. And based on the numbers I've already addressed, that's with tackling the illegal weapons numbers. That doesn't mean I'm willing to simply look the other way when some crazed individual or person filled with hate takes his legally owned gun and commits a heinous crime. But based on numbers, I'd rather focus on numbers and the numbers reflect where the problem lies.
What's happening in Chicago? Is there no enforcement? Are weapons found but the punishment isn't enough? Let's take a look at what's happening in Chicago and determine where the breakdown is and where we need to do something different...and do BETTER.
We can also look at holding people accountable for their guns. Children finding loaded guns...parents buying guns for their children that have no business owning a gun...absolutely. But this shouldn't be the sole focus as has been hinted at in this thread.
When a mass murder like this happens we say "we must do something...this can never be allowed to happen again" But when people are killed each and every day we are silent. Like all of those affected by gun violence every single day don't matter.
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Post by Skypea on Jun 19, 2015 2:16:38 GMT
I just watched the video linked above and that is not what I heard him say. He talked about it being called a hate crime and how many people have said it was a hate crime because the shooter was white and the victims were black but that the pastor brought up that it was a Christian church. He then questioned if that was the type of hate crime they meant since it wasn't specified. In other words, he is questioning what kind of hate crime it was. I think his comment saying "extraordinarily" being called a hate crime was stupid but then again, I think all murderers are committing a hate crime. That's not what I heard at all. And it is very clear that this was racially motivated. then you have selective hearing... the black minister brought up that it might be against Christians.
and AS Doocey said, they hadn't been told all the facts yet... do you know what time that show is on in the morning?
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Post by Regina Phalange on Jun 19, 2015 2:17:17 GMT
I never said anything at all about black people killing black people nor have I been glib. I brought up the gun control issue because it was mentioned how many more gun control laws are needed. All the gun control laws aren't helping Chicago...and the numbers are all right there. Sorry you cannot grasp those numbers because you're too focused on putting words in my mouth and you're so focused on me. It hurts to look at the numbers I've cited. You cannot argue that. Personally, I thought it was too soon to drag politics or gun control and I only addressed it because it was brought up several times. I firmly believe in gun control and support extensive background checks and keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. But I do not support extensive changes to our gun laws...not because I'm heartless or "glib" but because we've seen in the Chicago numbers that extensive changes and countless laws and control do not solve the problem of illegal guns. I think we as a nation need to get a handle on controlling illegal guns before making it even more difficult for citizens lawfully allowed to have a gun. Many more people are killed with illegal guns than legal guns...why not start with changes to the system that will make the most impact and save the most lives? That doesn't make me racist, glib, or uncaring about the tragedy in Charleston, Aurora, or Sandy Hook. That makes me able to comprehend the numbers and perhaps where the attention needs to be focused first and strongest. Buy you're not reading this...which is unfortunate. So Jenny - where does it say that all of these murders in Chicago were committed with illegal guns? Is there an accompanying statistic, or are these statistics related exclusively to the use of illegal guns in committing murder?
And for those who want to bring up the black on black crime epidemic (not you Jenny) according to FBI statistics, white on white crime is worse:
www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls
At least in 2013.
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Post by Skypea on Jun 19, 2015 2:20:05 GMT
AGAIN.
Why do I focus on Chicago?
"Shootings in Chicago exceed those in the nation's two larger cities this year even though New York and Los Angeles are each seeing an uptick in violence over the last two years.
Through the end of May, 510 people had been shot in New York City — a city more than three times the size of Chicago — compared with 467 during the year-earlier period, a 9 percent increase, according to New York Police Department statistics.
In L.A., a city with over a million more people than Chicago, 438 people had been shot as of May 30, a 21 percent increase during the year-earlier period when there were 362, Los Angeles Police Department statistics show."
www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-one-thousand-shootings-met-20150608-story.html
You are able to comprehend the words here, right? There are more shootings in Chicago than in NYC and Los Angeles COMBINED. You still don't understand why there's focus on Chicago?
You might have made a better argument by referencing senseless shootings in the entire country instead of zeroing in on Chicago. Otherwise it makes you look like your taking a potshot at President Obama because Chicago is what considers his hometown. For the record all of these killings are tragic regardless if they are in NY, LA, here in the SF Bay Area, or Chicago. And should be noted as such. oh brother! It's on the news a LOT! was on a lot when Rahm was campaigning again... and yeah, 'cause DBO can yap a mile if it's a black killed by someone white. Silence when it's blacks killing other blacks.
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Post by Regina Phalange on Jun 19, 2015 2:22:35 GMT
Bold emphasis mine. I am so tired of the illegal guns argument as a reason not to regulate guns!!! Almost every single mass murder over the last 10 years has been done by a while male with a legally obtained gun!! It's time to look at solutions to our increasing hate and violent crimes in America and accept that we as a nation have to do something about it!! And frankly, I'm so tired of the sole focus on gun control being on further restricting lawful gun ownership while failing to acknowledge that the bulk of lives lost are done so with illegal weapons.
I'd much rather focus efforts where it's going to have the most impact. And based on the numbers I've already addressed, that's with tackling the illegal weapons numbers. That doesn't mean I'm willing to simply look the other way when some crazed individual or person filled with hate takes his legally owned gun and commits a heinous crime. But based on numbers, I'd rather focus on numbers and the numbers reflect where the problem lies.
What's happening in Chicago? Is there no enforcement? Are weapons found but the punishment isn't enough? Let's take a look at what's happening in Chicago and determine where the breakdown is and where we need to do something different...and do BETTER.
We can also look at holding people accountable for their guns. Children finding loaded guns...parents buying guns for their children that have no business owning a gun...absolutely. But this shouldn't be the sole focus as has been hinted at in this thread.
When a mass murder like this happens we say "we must do something...this can never be allowed to happen again" But when people are killed each and every day we are silent. Like all of those affected by gun violence every single day don't matter.
Honestly, that's like saying, since heart disease is the #1 cause of death in the country, we need to put all of our medical resources into curing that, because that kills the most people. Cancer, diabetes and such will have to wait, because they don't kill as many people.
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Post by ntsf on Jun 19, 2015 2:28:23 GMT
part of the problem with chicago is that the laws are inconsistent between the city and the surrounding areas. if we had more consistent laws nationwide...I am for mandatory background checks for all forms of gun sales.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 2:45:09 GMT
And frankly, I'm so tired of the sole focus on gun control being on further restricting lawful gun ownership while failing to acknowledge that the bulk of lives lost are done so with illegal weapons.
I'd much rather focus efforts where it's going to have the most impact. And based on the numbers I've already addressed, that's with tackling the illegal weapons numbers. That doesn't mean I'm willing to simply look the other way when some crazed individual or person filled with hate takes his legally owned gun and commits a heinous crime. But based on numbers, I'd rather focus on numbers and the numbers reflect where the problem lies.
What's happening in Chicago? Is there no enforcement? Are weapons found but the punishment isn't enough? Let's take a look at what's happening in Chicago and determine where the breakdown is and where we need to do something different...and do BETTER.
We can also look at holding people accountable for their guns. Children finding loaded guns...parents buying guns for their children that have no business owning a gun...absolutely. But this shouldn't be the sole focus as has been hinted at in this thread.
When a mass murder like this happens we say "we must do something...this can never be allowed to happen again" But when people are killed each and every day we are silent. Like all of those affected by gun violence every single day don't matter.
Honestly, that's like saying, since heart disease is the #1 cause of death in the country, we need to put all of our medical resources into curing that, because that kills the most people. Cancer, diabetes and such will have to wait, because they don't kill as many people. Except that's not what I'm saying. I still support extensive background checks. I support keeping weapons out of the hands of the mentally ill and criminal. I support holding individuals responsible for their actions in regards to the careless handling and "distribution" of legal guns.
To use your analogy, you're saying that we have to ignore the heart disease as the #1 killer of people in this nation, because we're so focused on cancer and diabetes. I say that you cannot ignore the numbers and to focus on the relatively small number (and yes...ANY number of mass murder victims is terrible) of those killed in highly publicized mass murder incidents while failing to acknowledge that many, MANY more individuals are killed with our illegal gun epidemic and then want to put at least as much effort into fixing that problem. Let's make it even more difficult for law abiding citizens to carry a weapon if they so choose to all while knowing that the criminals are going to have guns and give zero shits that they're carrying an illegal weapon. If some people have their way, the only people with the guns are going to be the criminals. Again, I"ll say that I've never had a gun, have no desire to have a gun and can't fathom ever taking the steps to own a gun. But I also don't want to live in a world where the bad guys are the only ones with guns.
Like Scrappower said earlier, there's no one that's going to change their mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 2:45:34 GMT
You might have made a better argument by referencing senseless shootings in the entire country instead of zeroing in on Chicago. Otherwise it makes you look like your taking a potshot at President Obama because Chicago is what considers his hometown. For the record all of these killings are tragic regardless if they are in NY, LA, here in the SF Bay Area, or Chicago. And should be noted as such. oh brother! It's on the news a LOT! was on a lot when Rahm was campaigning again... and yeah, 'cause DBO can yap a mile if it's a black killed by someone white. Silence when it's blacks killing other blacks.
And I stand by what I said. Doesn't matter where it happens no one senseless death is more important than another. They are all tragic equally. It needs to stop everywhere. If you don't understand that well.....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 2:54:10 GMT
part of the problem with chicago is that the laws are inconsistent between the city and the surrounding areas. if we had more consistent laws nationwide...I am for mandatory background checks for all forms of gun sales. Yup guns are too dangerous and important to have it piece mealed together. It needs to be cohesive and done at a federal level across the board.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 2:55:01 GMT
That's not what I heard at all. And it is very clear that this was racially motivated. then you have selective hearing... the black minister brought up that it might be against Christians.
and AS Doocey said, they hadn't been told all the facts yet... do you know what time that show is on in the morning?
Wrong, they knew it was racially motivated LAST NIGHT. This has nothing to do with Christians. Everything to do with race.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 3:11:20 GMT
Just found out that one of the victims was an admissions counselor at my girls university. She was on the Charleston campus. So sad for all of the lives lost! That is so sad. I'm sorry for your girls' college community's loss.
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Post by marykate on Jun 19, 2015 3:49:00 GMT
If you want to make a donation to the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, here's a link.
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