Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,990
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Jun 19, 2015 19:39:35 GMT
But he didn't. Neither did Adam Lanza or James Holmes or John Shick or Jared Padgett or Jaylen Fryberg or Aaron Alexis or or or or...
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Post by freecharlie on Jun 19, 2015 19:43:41 GMT
But he didn't. Neither did Adam Lanza or James Holmes or John Shick or Jared Padgett or Jaylen Fryberg or Aaron Alexis or or or or... But the marathon bombers did. the oklahoma city bombers did . The olympic bomber did There have been bombings at abortion clinics. There have been failed bombings because of poorly made bombs or because someone spotted them and disarmed them.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jun 19, 2015 19:57:44 GMT
You are so wrong and ridiculous it almost isn't worth responding to you. @gajenny brought up Chicago in this thread because she can't comprehend that white people commit crimes too. Her constant and not so-veiled racist comments about "Chicago gun violence" isn't fooling anyone. You're the one, in every one of these threads about crimes being committed on black people, mostly by the police lately, who can't shut up about black on black crime. Please don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining; I'm not the racist here. My "agenda" as you call it, is that there is institutionalized racism in the country and it's people like you and Jenny who insist that they're not racists who are the worst. I will never shut up about how hard it is to be black in this country, especially in the south where you see racist Confederate flags being proudly displayed, the very symbol of slavery in this country. You can try to turn it around on me but I will continue to talk about inequality and the scourge of racism and complacency that destroys peoples' lives. Don't like what I say, jonda1974, don't read it. Don't you dare tell me that I'M the racist here. Actually I will dare to tell you exactly that...You are racist.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jul 2, 2024 11:48:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 19:58:18 GMT
My proposed solution (which has previously been screamed down by the usual parties here) is to require each gun owner to have insurance on each gun they own and require that insurance to include payouts for use of the weapon in a crime and then go back against the gun owner to recover their loss. Let the actuaries figure out the risk. If that makes guns too expensive for certain people to own because of their choices and habits with their weapons - I say that begins to identify the source of some of our problems. But wouldn't that basically be a "tax" required for a right given to us in the constitution? And aren't there people very much against requiring ID's in order to vote because that would be a "tax" on the right to vote...something granted in the constitution?
We have to get auto insurance if we want to drive. Fine. The right to drive is not in the constitution.
(and clearly, I do get the difference between someone's life and the right to vote...but rights in the constitution are rights in the constitution, right?)
There is no law saying there can't be a gun tax. There is about a poll tax.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Jun 19, 2015 19:58:50 GMT
Simply for purposes of clarification since people here are from all over the world, the State House (and the confederate flag on its grounds) are in Columbia, in the center of the state. Mother Emmanuel church is in Charleston which is located on the coast.
And as a South Carolinian, I would like to see the flag removed from the state house grounds completely.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jun 19, 2015 19:59:22 GMT
But he didn't. Neither did Adam Lanza or James Holmes or John Shick or Jared Padgett or Jaylen Fryberg or Aaron Alexis or or or or... Take away the guns from the equation, and those same men would have still committed their crimes, and may have used bombs instead. The delivery method isn't the real problem, it's the mentality behind it.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jul 2, 2024 11:48:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 20:00:42 GMT
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,990
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Jun 19, 2015 20:05:05 GMT
You know, people say that a lot and I guess it's an easy thing to say without having to actually prove whether or it's true because it's just speculation. Having lived through an actual mass attack at my kids' school where the perpetrator DID use a weapon other than a gun, do you know how many people were injured? Twenty four. Do you know how many people died? Zero. Do you know what the police chief said afterwards? "Thank God he didn't have a gun."
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Post by foolana on Jun 19, 2015 20:06:16 GMT
I have no issues. You are in denial. No one else's mind went from the need for more gun laws to the gun crimes in minority Chicago. Interesting.
Who exactly am I being racist towards?
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jul 2, 2024 11:48:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 20:06:24 GMT
I think you're listening to some very biased opinions if you don't mind me saying so ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/MNrJDkDuSwqIMVw33MdD.jpg) The personal experiences of those that I've known and trusted for years inform my opinion. ![:smile:](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) I'm not surprised your views are different. It's ok. As long we don't start tossing petrol bombs at each other because of it, I consider it a win. That's a bit insensitive considering the very recent attempt by the New IRA to try and blow up two Northern Ireland Police officers by placing a bomb under their personal car. They were a married couple who both happened to be police officers. Thankfully the attack was foiled by the security services after a report of suspicious activity by a member of the public.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jun 19, 2015 20:08:40 GMT
You know, people say that a lot and I guess it's an easy thing to say without having to actually prove whether or it's true because it's just speculation. Having lived through an actual mass attack at my kids' school where the perpetrator DID use a weapon other than a gun, do you know how many people were injured? Twenty four. Do you know how many people died? Zero. Do you know what the police chief said afterwards? "Thank God he didn't have a gun." Valid points SaraH. But then you also have that juxtaposed with Oklahoma City. Look at the Boston Marathon Bombing. Which is why for me, the impetus and momentum should be on what is wrong in our F*cked up culture that breeds these psychopaths, and what can we do to deter them before they get to the point of choosing a weapon.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jun 19, 2015 20:11:29 GMT
I have no issues. You are in denial. No one else's mind went from the need for more gun laws to the gun crimes in minority Chicago. Interesting. Who exactly am I being racist towards? Considering that you are the one who sees color in every word, thought, action, motive, posting, event, etc...and insist that anyone who doesn't fall in lock step with you on every point is a racist...I'd say that you are the one who is anything BUT colorblind. Is there institutionalized racism, absolutely, but not everything is about color. THIS shooting was absolutely, but you make EVERYTHING about race, and that in and of itself breeds racism.
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Post by pierogi on Jun 19, 2015 20:23:47 GMT
The personal experiences of those that I've known and trusted for years inform my opinion. ![:smile:](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) I'm not surprised your views are different. It's ok. As long we don't start tossing petrol bombs at each other because of it, I consider it a win. That's a bit insensitive considering the very recent attempt by the New IRA to try and blow up two Northern Ireland Police officers by placing a bomb under their personal car. They were a married couple who both happened to be police officers. Thankfully the attack was foiled by the security services after a report of suspicious activity by a member of the public. I'm aware of the Eglinton attack, but I wasn't thinking of that when I typed my reply. I was not being literal. I'm deeply sorry if you were offended, that was not my intent. I have a very black sense of humor, and given the past cycles of violence in NI, I try to laugh or I'd never stop crying. The NIRA is a pathetic tiny group of dissidents who have no support with anyone in the country. Not surprised they were apprehended.
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Post by freecharlie on Jun 19, 2015 20:27:11 GMT
But wouldn't that basically be a "tax" required for a right given to us in the constitution? And aren't there people very much against requiring ID's in order to vote because that would be a "tax" on the right to vote...something granted in the constitution?
We have to get auto insurance if we want to drive. Fine. The right to drive is not in the constitution.
(and clearly, I do get the difference between someone's life and the right to vote...but rights in the constitution are rights in the constitution, right?)
There is no law saying there can't be a gun tax. There is about a poll tax. You are right, there isn't. I wouldn't be against insurance on my firearms. I list them on our home insurance. I do know some people who would throw a fit because it would mean that there was a database that listed all their guns (please don't attribute that to me, but those I know). If there was a law like this passed, it would certainly be challenged. I don't know who would prevail, but I would bet an injuction would be in place until it went as high as it could.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jun 19, 2015 20:30:39 GMT
But he didn't. Neither did Adam Lanza or James Holmes or John Shick or Jared Padgett or Jaylen Fryberg or Aaron Alexis or or or or... But the marathon bombers did. the oklahoma city bombers did . The olympic bomber did There have been bombings at abortion clinics. There have been failed bombings because of poorly made bombs or because someone spotted them and disarmed them. So... because they could have used another weapon... we shouldn't talk about guns? Sorry not a good argument
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Post by freecharlie on Jun 19, 2015 20:31:14 GMT
No argument from me there. Anybody calling this an "accident" is a dick and someone I would like to smack. This was deliberate. Gun, no gun, drugs, no drugs. This guy had a plan. There was no freaking accident. ASS
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jun 19, 2015 20:32:42 GMT
I have no issues. You are in denial. No one else's mind went from the need for more gun laws to the gun crimes in minority Chicago. Interesting. Who exactly am I being racist towards? Considering that you are the one who sees color in every word, thought, action, motive, posting, event, etc...and insist that anyone who doesn't fall in lock step with you on every point is a racist...I'd say that you are the one who is anything BUT colorblind. Is there institutionalized racism, absolutely, but not everything is about color. THIS shooting was absolutely, but you make EVERYTHING about race, and that in and of itself breeds racism. To see racism does not make it exist.
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Post by freecharlie on Jun 19, 2015 20:37:33 GMT
But the marathon bombers did. the oklahoma city bombers did . The olympic bomber did There have been bombings at abortion clinics. There have been failed bombings because of poorly made bombs or because someone spotted them and disarmed them. So... because they could have used another weapon... we shouldn't talk about guns? Sorry not a good argument I didn't say anything about not discussing guns. What I said in that post was that we needed to look at mental health services in this county. This guy was an asshat who was going to kill with or without guns. Was there some mental health issue that was untreated or undiagnosed? What about with the other assholes who shoot people? There seems to often be an underlying mental issue. Can we prevent things like this from happening with affordable access to mental health services and medication?
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Post by jonda1974 on Jun 19, 2015 20:37:51 GMT
Considering that you are the one who sees color in every word, thought, action, motive, posting, event, etc...and insist that anyone who doesn't fall in lock step with you on every point is a racist...I'd say that you are the one who is anything BUT colorblind. Is there institutionalized racism, absolutely, but not everything is about color. THIS shooting was absolutely, but you make EVERYTHING about race, and that in and of itself breeds racism. To see racism does not make it exist. To see RACE in everything does. And Foolana makes everything about race. The only way to NOT be racist is to be completely colorblind.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jun 19, 2015 20:38:57 GMT
And what things in our culture - big culture, little culture - breed the kind of rage, fear and paranoia that result in these crimes happening over and over. We're not supposed to talk about that though; (put on your sarcasm goggles for this next part) it's just one of those things. Crazy is as crazy does. We have NO IDEA why he thought those things and killed those people. It's just a tragedy. There is absolutely nothing we can do to keep tragedies like this from happening again. It is the language we use about these things that truly indicates the systemic problems in our country. If it is a muslim killer.. we are under attack as a nation, and the perpetrator is a terrorist. If it is a black killer, he or she is a thug. If it is a white male, they are mentally ill. All of these are reactions to the problems that we first have to acknowledge as a nation, and then have real dialogue and conversation that aims at righting wrongs, and improving relations between groups of people.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jun 19, 2015 20:41:28 GMT
So... because they could have used another weapon... we shouldn't talk about guns? Sorry not a good argument I didn't say anything about not discussing guns. What I said in that post was that we needed to look at mental health services in this county. This guy was an asshat who was going to kill with or without guns. Was there some mental health issue that was untreated or undiagnosed? What about with the other assholes who shoot people? There seems to often be an underlying mental issue. Can we prevent things like this from happening with affordable access to mental health services and medication? You don't know that. You are supposing. He could have done it another way. Why does the conversation always go to mental health when it is a white killer? Hate is what it is about, and that is not a mental health issue. It is passed down from generation to generation. When you have a symbol of hate flying in your capital. You need to look no further. There is your issue. Its time to stop making excuses.
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Post by Regina Phalange on Jun 19, 2015 20:42:48 GMT
You are so wrong and ridiculous it almost isn't worth responding to you. @gajenny brought up Chicago in this thread because she can't comprehend that white people commit crimes too. Her constant and not so-veiled racist comments about "Chicago gun violence" isn't fooling anyone. You're the one, in every one of these threads about crimes being committed on black people, mostly by the police lately, who can't shut up about black on black crime. Please don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining; I'm not the racist here. My "agenda" as you call it, is that there is institutionalized racism in the country and it's people like you and Jenny who insist that they're not racists who are the worst. I will never shut up about how hard it is to be black in this country, especially in the south where you see racist Confederate flags being proudly displayed, the very symbol of slavery in this country. You can try to turn it around on me but I will continue to talk about inequality and the scourge of racism and complacency that destroys peoples' lives. Don't like what I say, jonda1974, don't read it. Don't you dare tell me that I'M the racist here. Actually I will dare to tell you exactly that...You are racist. I'm confused, how is bringing up racism, even if it wasn't implied initially, racist? The definition of racism:
rac·ist
/ˈrāsəst/
noun
noun: racist; plural noun: racists
1. a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
synonyms: racial bigot, racialist, xenophobe, chauvinist, supremacist More
"he was exposed as a racist"
•(racially) discriminatory, racialist, prejudiced, bigoted
"a racist society"
adjective
noun: racist; plural noun: racists; adjective: racist
2. having or showing the belief that a particular race is superior to another. "we are investigating complaints about racist abuse at the club"
It doesn't say that pointing out racism is racist, so I'm not sure I follow your accusation.
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Post by freecharlie on Jun 19, 2015 20:43:49 GMT
To see racism does not make it exist. To see RACE in everything does. And Foolana makes everything about race. The only way to NOT be racist is to be completely colorblind. I disagree. I don't think we can be colorblind. What we can do is acknowledge that races do exist and with them comes different issues that people deal with (both good and bad). I think race, culture, and religion does come into play more often than we would like. However, I think our goal should be to treat each other with respect and understanding, but not to have race be a crutch or an excuse or be the reason for everything.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jun 19, 2015 20:44:21 GMT
To see racism does not make it exist. To see RACE in everything does. And Foolana makes everything about race. The only way to NOT be racist is to be completely colorblind. No that is a fallacy. You can not be color blind. Race is a fact. To suppose that we are all the same, is part of the problem. To accept all races, and to not judge people based not his or her race, that is to not be racist. To pretend race does not exist, is to perpetuate the problem.
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Post by Regina Phalange on Jun 19, 2015 20:44:28 GMT
To see racism does not make it exist. To see RACE in everything does. And Foolana makes everything about race. The only way to NOT be racist is to be completely colorblind. Sorry, that might be your definition, but that doesn't make it true. Calling something racist does NOT make you racist.
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Post by Regina Phalange on Jun 19, 2015 20:46:22 GMT
But he didn't. Neither did Adam Lanza or James Holmes or John Shick or Jared Padgett or Jaylen Fryberg or Aaron Alexis or or or or... But the marathon bombers did. the oklahoma city bombers did . The olympic bomber did There have been bombings at abortion clinics. There have been failed bombings because of poorly made bombs or because someone spotted them and disarmed them. Here is another difference
Marathon Bomber - 2013 Oklahoma City Bomber - 1995 Olympic Bombing - 1996
Everyone mentioned by Sarah has been within the last couple of years at the most. If not just the last year or two.
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Post by freecharlie on Jun 19, 2015 20:48:40 GMT
I didn't say anything about not discussing guns. What I said in that post was that we needed to look at mental health services in this county. This guy was an asshat who was going to kill with or without guns. Was there some mental health issue that was untreated or undiagnosed? What about with the other assholes who shoot people? There seems to often be an underlying mental issue. Can we prevent things like this from happening with affordable access to mental health services and medication? You don't know that. You are supposing. He could have done it another way. Why does the conversation always go to mental health when it is a white killer? Hate is what it is about, and that is not a mental health issue. It is passed down from generation to generation. When you have a symbol of hate flying in your capital. You need to look no further. There is your issue. Its time to stop making excuses. It goes there with these white killers because statistically mass shootings are done by white males. What is the ratio of white to non-white school shootings? What about opening fire in a mall or other crowded place? The mental health angle has nothing to do with white or non-white, it is about looking for was to maybe prevent this type of shit from happening when we can.
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Post by katieanna on Jun 19, 2015 20:53:40 GMT
My whole point of becoming involved from a "gun control" POV was Scrappower saying "something must be done" and calling for more laws...stricter laws. I don't think our knee jerk reaction needs to always be more and stricter laws. I'd like to know why the laws on the books (and yes, even the laws in Chicago and the state of IL) are clearly FAILING. Maybe we should look at those laws, why they're failing, and tweak THE LAWS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS before we just randomly start shouting for even more (ineffective) laws that won't solve the problem. If extensive laws already on the books aren't making an impact, why add even more laws that either can't be or aren't enforced to make a positive change in the gun violence in this nation? That baffles me. I'm trying to get caught up with this thread but I'm only on page 6 so I'm a little behind. I totally agree with GaJenny. The problems with these senseless killings go much deeper than guns.
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jayfab
Drama Llama
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procastinating
Posts: 5,546
Jun 26, 2014 21:55:15 GMT
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Post by jayfab on Jun 19, 2015 20:54:47 GMT
So... because they could have used another weapon... we shouldn't talk about guns? Sorry not a good argument I didn't say anything about not discussing guns. What I said in that post was that we needed to look at mental health services in this county. This guy was an asshat who was going to kill with or without guns. Was there some mental health issue that was untreated or undiagnosed? What about with the other assholes who shoot people? There seems to often be an underlying mental issue. Can we prevent things like this from happening with affordable access to mental health services and medication? This guy murdered black people because he was a RACIST! So how do we treat that? Mental health services? Really? MANY all over fb are denying there even is racism.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jun 19, 2015 20:56:00 GMT
And what things in our culture - big culture, little culture - breed the kind of rage, fear and paranoia that result in these crimes happening over and over. We're not supposed to talk about that though; (put on your sarcasm goggles for this next part) it's just one of those things. Crazy is as crazy does. We have NO IDEA why he thought those things and killed those people. It's just a tragedy. There is absolutely nothing we can do to keep tragedies like this from happening again. It is the language we use about these things that truly indicates the systemic problems in our country. If it is a muslim killer.. we are under attack as a nation, and the perpetrator is a terrorist. If it is a black killer, he or she is a thug. If it is a white male, they are mentally ill. All of these are reactions to the problems that we first have to acknowledge as a nation, and then have real dialogue and conversation that aims at righting wrongs, and improving relations between groups of people. Except that is comparing apples and oranges, and types of attacks. Almost all mass killings are perpetrated by white men in the US. The scale of a terrorist attack such as 9/11 is completely different, vs. a gang shooting attributed to a "thug". Mohammed Atta and Timothy McVeigh...both terrorists and both defined as terrorists. One Muslim, One White. John Allan Muhammad and Dylan Roof...both sociopaths and both defined as mass killers. One Black, One White. Michael Brown and James Holmes...both criminals, but completely different types of crimes. One a petty thug, one a mass murderer. You can't compare the descriptions. The only commonality is that one has to have some mental health issues in all regards to be a thug or a terrorist or a mass murderer. Their victims and motive very dramatically, which is why we have different labels for the type of perpetrator that has nothing to do with skin color. I know many white guys who I would call absolute thugs. It goes to the severity of the crime in many ways. Thug: a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer. Terrorist: a person who terrorizes or frightens others. Mass Murderer: murdering four or more persons during an event with no "cooling-off period" between the murders.
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