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Post by tallgirl on Jul 9, 2015 20:18:49 GMT
Why is the confederate flag under such scrutiny at this point in time?
I understand what it stands for and why it's offensive. I think I've heard that the current groundswell of anti-flag opinion started with the church shootings in Charleston. I know that they were racially motivated and I get the tie between the two. But there have been a lot of racially motivated crimes over the years, and none of those resulted in removal of the flag. Was it because this shooting involved a large number of people? Is this just the last straw that broke the camel's back? Or is there another reason why this is the right time (according to some/most) to remove the flag?
I am hoping that asking this doesn't make me a complete ignoramus. I'm honestly just curious, and probably not as up to date on current events as I should be.
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Post by Heidi on Jul 9, 2015 20:23:34 GMT
I believe it has to do with the fact that in one of the shooter's online pictures he was holding a Confederate flag.
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Post by freecharlie on Jul 9, 2015 20:24:47 GMT
The media and social media latched onto it.
It should have been taken down from the capital years ago. Had it not been on display there, I do not think the backlash would have been quite so sweeping.
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georgiapea
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,846
Jun 27, 2014 18:02:10 GMT
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Post by georgiapea on Jul 9, 2015 20:35:01 GMT
Asking about things we don't fully grasp is always good. I'm not from the south, I have pacific northwest thinking to my very core. I've seen the confederate flag used as an "in your face" tool and would love to see it removed completely. From what other's have expressed here, they don't view it like I do and it doesn't bother them. I saw racial injustice as a teen in Florida in the 50's and coming from Calif. I was horrified. Again in the 80's we lived in the south and while the 'Whites Only' signs were no longer there, 'KKK Meeting Tonight' signs replaced them. Now, once again in the south since 2009, I have not seen a single KKK sign but people still use that confederate flag to show how they, individually, feel. The confederate flag is a symbol of something that should not exist, so my feeling is - get rid of the flag.
Other posters will have differing viewpoints.
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Post by scrapqueen01 on Jul 9, 2015 20:49:16 GMT
I'm from the south so I've seen the flag on things my whole life. I understand removing the flag from capitol buildings. As freecharlie said media and social media has taken it and run with it. People here see it as part of their heritage and not as a sign of hate. I've seen more flags flying since this whole thing started. People here just don't think the rest of the country has a right to dictate where the flag is and isn't flown.
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Deleted
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Sept 20, 2024 22:18:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 20:52:23 GMT
I'm from the south so I've seen the flag on things my whole life. I understand removing the flag from capitol buildings. As freecharlie said media and social media has taken it and run with it. People here see it as part of their heritage and not as a sign of hate. I've seen more flags flying since this whole thing started. People here just don't think the rest of the country has a right to dictate where the flag is and isn't flown. Why does only the heritage of white Southerners count? Rep. Joseph Neal on taking the flag down
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 9, 2015 20:52:22 GMT
I think it was kind of a perfect storm of events if you will. South Carolina where these heinous murders took place as a result of blatant racism in the State that started the Civil War, which was about slavery, and in the State that actually was the first to hang the Confederate Flag, not as a result of history or heritage, but as retaliation for the Civil Rights movement. Combine all those things together, and I think that's why it reached the boiling point this time. I equate it now with the Nazi flag. Something I hadn't given a lot of thought of until this incident, but it is very true. We wouldn't want Nazi flags decorating cemeteries or national monuments to Hitler in Germany, so I don't mind these things coming down in the US either.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 9, 2015 20:53:00 GMT
I think it was a combination of long-simmering resentment about that flag still being flown on state property, coupled with outrage about the circumstances of this particular shooting and the many (not just one) photos of this guy displaying the Confederate battle flag and his ties to white supremacists.
No one is trying to take the flag out of individual people's hands. But it truly has no place flying high at the statehouse, and it has bothered lots of people for a long time. This shooting was just the impetus needed to finally push enough people in the right direction.
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Deleted
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Sept 20, 2024 22:18:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 20:54:34 GMT
The confederate flag is a symbol of something that should not exist, so my feeling is - get rid of the flag. The flag may be an outward symbol (although I honestly didn't associate it with that, but I'm an ignorant northerner so I haven't been exposed to it before), but the feelings will still exist. I don't see that taking away the symbol does one darn thing for the underlying feelings.
This isn't an Emperor has no clothes kind of issue. Taking the flag away doesn't do anything but make it a little less evident to anyone on the outside.
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Deleted
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Sept 20, 2024 22:18:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 20:58:55 GMT
The confederate flag is a symbol of something that should not exist, so my feeling is - get rid of the flag. The flag may be an outward symbol (although I honestly didn't associate it with that, but I'm an ignorant northerner so I haven't been exposed to it before), but the feelings will still exist. I don't see that taking away the symbol does one darn thing for the underlying feelings.
This isn't an Emperor has no clothes kind of issue. Taking the flag away doesn't do anything but make it a little less evident to anyone on the outside.
It doesn't make racism go away, that's true. But at least it shows a measure of consideration to the African-American community that they no longer have to look at a symbol of their oppression flown high and proud on government land every day.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 9, 2015 21:00:20 GMT
I'm from the south so I've seen the flag on things my whole life. I understand removing the flag from capitol buildings. As freecharlie said media and social media has taken it and run with it. People here see it as part of their heritage and not as a sign of hate. I've seen more flags flying since this whole thing started. People here just don't think the rest of the country has a right to dictate where the flag is and isn't flown.I don't think you really mean this the way it sounds. I'm sure there are people who see the flag as heritage, not hate. To many, many other people (also Southerners) it's a reminder of slavery, secession, war, bigotry, and violence. Doesn't their opinion count, too? And as far as the rest of us dictating where the flag is to be flown... we're not, we couldn't, and we didn't. We expressed opinions, which we're entitled to do. It was your own Southerners, including Republican legislators and the governor, who made the actual choice to take it down. And I say good for them!
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River
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,573
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Jun 26, 2014 15:26:04 GMT
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Post by River on Jul 9, 2015 21:02:24 GMT
I have the same questions as you (and I live in the south, born and raised). To me, my friends, neighbors and fellow rednecks, it's never meant as a racial insult or pro slavery. It's just flown here (in this time period) to say "we love the south". PERIOD. It may have started in some bad roots, but it's revolved into much more meaningful sentiments. **In my opinion only and from my very small town's view**
I probably need a history lesson, but to be honest, I'll just keep the meaning it's had for me my entire life. That general meaning being... "I'm proud to say I'm southern and extremely proud of how far we've come". Yes, we still have a long way to go with race equality, but that's everywhere, not just in the south.
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Deleted
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Sept 20, 2024 22:18:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 21:02:52 GMT
I'm from the south so I've seen the flag on things my whole life. I understand removing the flag from capitol buildings. As freecharlie said media and social media has taken it and run with it. People here see it as part of their heritage and not as a sign of hate. I've seen more flags flying since this whole thing started. People here just don't think the rest of the country has a right to dictate where the flag is and isn't flown. I completely agree with everything you just said. I too have seen more of the flags since this thing started. Most people I know that care anything about the flag do not use it for hate, it is their heritage. But having people tell you different, that you MUST be using it for hate really chaps people buts.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 9, 2015 21:03:19 GMT
The flag may be an outward symbol (although I honestly didn't associate it with that, but I'm an ignorant northerner so I haven't been exposed to it before), but the feelings will still exist. I don't see that taking away the symbol does one darn thing for the underlying feelings.
This isn't an Emperor has no clothes kind of issue. Taking the flag away doesn't do anything but make it a little less evident to anyone on the outside.
It doesn't make racism go away, that's true. But at least it shows a measure of consideration to the African-American community that they no longer have to look at a symbol of their oppression flown high and proud on government land every day. And it's an affirmative if oblique statement by the government that the flag no longer represents the views of the State of South Carolina. I thinks it's huge. And meaningful.
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back to *pea*ality
Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
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Jun 25, 2014 19:51:11 GMT
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Jul 9, 2015 21:05:40 GMT
I am glad that it is gone and if it brings a moment of comfort to the families who lost their loved ones then it was worth it.
The flag is a symbol from the Civil War in this Country over the issue of slavery. Every time someone brings up "southern pride" it makes me think what do you mean by that? Are you saying that slavery was a good thing?
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Jul 9, 2015 21:15:01 GMT
The confederate flag is a symbol of something that should not exist, so my feeling is - get rid of the flag. The flag may be an outward symbol (although I honestly didn't associate it with that, but I'm an ignorant northerner so I haven't been exposed to it before), but the feelings will still exist. I don't see that taking away the symbol does one darn thing for the underlying feelings.
This isn't an Emperor has no clothes kind of issue. Taking the flag away doesn't do anything but make it a little less evident to anyone on the outside.
Taking away the flag on the SC statehouse grounds actually does do something in my opinion. It shows that a majority of us in the state don't want that symbol representing us. And just like passing a law doesn't mean people will follow it, dictating a new mindset doesn't automatically make people have it. Does racism still exist? Sure. Will it still be there when the flag comes off the statehouse grounds? Sure. But it's a start. Hearts are not changed overnight. Think how long it took this country to give women the right to vote. Think how long it took for gay marriage to be legal... anywhere in the country, much less the whole. By leaving the option to fly the flag with individuals, it gives the rest of us some idea where our fellow citizens stand. I've learned that some of my friends are much more close-minded and small-minded than I thought they were. But I've seen so many others stretch to accommodate a new way of thinking and a new mindset. And there are others I am simply proud to know and love for the open-hearted stand they take toward everyone -- all races, all sexual persuasions, all religions... everyone. Criticize this decision by SC all you want to... freedom of speech guarantees you the right to do just that. But it's a decision this South Carolinian is proud of and one I hope leads to even greater understanding between people as we move forward.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Jul 9, 2015 21:16:27 GMT
lucyg - thank you for that.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 9, 2015 21:23:20 GMT
lucyg - thank you for that. No. Thank you. ETA that means you personally and also you, the State of South Carolina.
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Post by freecharlie on Jul 9, 2015 21:23:23 GMT
I am glad that it is gone and if it brings a moment of comfort to the families who lost their loved ones then it was worth it. The flag is a symbol from the Civil War in this Country over the issue of slavery. Every time someone brings up "southern pride" it makes me think what do you mean by that? Are you saying that slavery was a good thing? I think when the southern units used it in world War ( I want to say 2, but it could have been 1), it WAS a symbol of southern pride. They were southern and proud of it ND it may have been a slight finger to the yankees. When they came back it continued to mean southern pride. Then the civil rights movement and it was southern pride, a big finger to the government and the yankees, and it was a not so subtle way of protesting civil rights. The flag stayed as a symbol of all of that for a while. This generation, those born or raised after the 60s, many of them didn't experience the civil rights movement, so to them ot still means southern pride and a finger to the north. I don't think it is all about racism, but I definitely think there are those who use/fly it with absolute racism and hatred in their hearts. I agree 100% with removing it from the capital. I also believe that the complete overraction is going to cause people to dig their heels so far in, that we are going to see an upswing in displaying it all over.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 21:26:21 GMT
The thing that bothers me about all of this is that there are people (both in the south and all over the nation) that are attempting to re-write history.
You see the flag as an outward display of a time when black Americans were oppressed. I can understand that. I would even support that.
But the talk and attempt to boycott Stone Mountain and shut it down...and I read yesterday some group is trying to remove confederate monuments from parks.
IMO, you cannot re-write history and regardless of why you think the Civil War happened, it was part of US History and can not and should not be erased.
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J u l e e
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Jun 28, 2014 2:50:47 GMT
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Post by J u l e e on Jul 9, 2015 21:38:40 GMT
I agree 100% with removing it from the capital. I also believe that the complete overraction is going to cause people to dig their heels so far in, that we are going to see an upswing in displaying it all over. Maybe for a little while. But I will hope that fades. Kind of like the American flags people displayed everywhere after 911. People came together and rallied. Then it faded. I'm hoping that's what will happen over time in this situation with this flag. And I agree that taking it down is very meaningful.
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Post by penny on Jul 9, 2015 22:12:49 GMT
I can't find the article, but I read something that mentioned how the 'timing was right/primed' because of the run of issues that have happened in fairly quick succession in the past year(?)... Ferguson, black lives matter, the man that was paralyzed while being arrested... I can't recall many of the incidents (having a fuzzy headed day), but the writer said the series of incidents and attention sort of primed society and when the killer displayed the flag, it didn't get brushed aside...
I'm sure I'm not explaining it well... Having a fuzzy thought day, so apologies if I've gotten details a bit mixed up...
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Post by scrapqueen01 on Jul 9, 2015 22:51:33 GMT
You are right in that I didn't mean it the way it's written. My apologies. I was writing something quickly as I was about to run out the door.
I'm sure for some it is a reminder of slavery and others it is heritage. When the governor of my state had the flag taken down some people were very upset and others applauded. It's a case where not everyone is going to be happy regardless of the decision made. I agree with the governor's decision to remove it from government grounds. I'm just not happy about The Dukes of Hazzard being removed from TV Land. I loved that show growing up.
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Post by femalebusiness on Jul 9, 2015 23:01:56 GMT
I think everyone who is so in love with that rag should fly it from their front porch. Then we will know who they are, and after the Google Earth camera captures the pic the entire world will know where the assholes live.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Jul 9, 2015 23:39:49 GMT
I think everyone who is so in love with that rag should fly it from their front porch. Then we will know who they are, and after the Google Earth camera captures the pic the entire world will know where the assholes live. Well, you certainly know how to promote peace and brotherhood, don't you?
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Post by femalebusiness on Jul 10, 2015 0:44:22 GMT
I think everyone who is so in love with that rag should fly it from their front porch. Then we will know who they are, and after the Google Earth camera captures the pic the entire world will know where the assholes live. Well, you certainly know how to promote peace and brotherhood, don't you? Whatever makes you think that I would want to promote peace and brotherhood with a person who would fly a confederate flag? I would not. I just want to know who they are so that I can stay far, far away from them.
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Post by tallgirl on Jul 10, 2015 0:45:24 GMT
Thanks everyone... You've filled in a lot of blanks for me.
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Post by beachbum on Jul 10, 2015 1:13:21 GMT
I believe it has to do with the fact that in one of the shooter's online pictures he was holding a Confederate flag. He was holding a gun in the other hand... why is there not a huge push to ban guns now??? I think the Confederate flag is a racist symbol, don't get me wrong - I'm in the south and I think 'ignorant redneck' when I see someone with a huge Confederate flag in their yard or flying from the back of their truck. I'm glad to see the flags down, but I'd also like to see some more restrictions on guns.
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Post by Eddie-n-Harley on Jul 10, 2015 1:21:37 GMT
I believe it has to do with the fact that in one of the shooter's online pictures he was holding a Confederate flag. He was holding a gun in the other hand... why is there not a huge push to ban guns now??? I think the Confederate flag is a racist symbol, don't get me wrong - I'm in the south and I think 'ignorant redneck' when I see someone with a huge Confederate flag in their yard or flying from the back of their truck. I'm glad to see the flags down, but I'd also like to see some more restrictions on guns. Because there's no flag lobby.
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Post by RiverIsis on Jul 10, 2015 1:54:33 GMT
I have the same questions as you (and I live in the south, born and raised). To me, my friends, neighbors and fellow rednecks, it's never meant as a racial insult or pro slavery. It's just flown here (in this time period) to say "we love the south". PERIOD. It may have started in some bad roots, but it's revolved into much more meaningful sentiments. **In my opinion only and from my very small town's view** I probably need a history lesson, but to be honest, I'll just keep the meaning it's had for me my entire life. That general meaning being... "I'm proud to say I'm southern and extremely proud of how far we've come". Yes, we still have a long way to go with race equality, but that's everywhere, not just in the south. Unfortunately, from my Border state, birthplace of the President of the USA and the Confederacy, perspective, you are a victim of propaganda. The flag is a Confederate battle flag (not even the flag of the Confederacy) and the battle was about maintaining the socioeconomic way of life of the Southern plantations with Slavery. States Rights were added on to lure money and support from Europe to fight the North, but the letters of the Confederate government and generals all show slavery as the primary course of the Confederacy. I have found the display of the flag a cringeworthy embarrassment for years. We have idiots around town displaying a flag on their big ol trucks that never even flew here to make a point. The point they think they are making is far from the point they are actually making that they are a racist idiot who doesn't understand that oppression is an awful thing to celebrate. There are plenty of Southern things to be proud of, a Confederate battle flag is not one nor does it represent the best of the South.
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